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6 great reasons to use a retinoid


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#1 Fredrik

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 05:21 PM


6 Great Reasons to Use a Retinoid


I and Eva Victoria have said all this umpteenth of times on the forum. But maybe hearing a professor of dermatology saying the same thing will convince someone who is on the fence about using a retinoid. Everyone concerned about their skin health should be using one. Not only to prevent skin aging , but damage like actinic keratoses. Sub clinical skin damage is measurable in Caucasians from the age of 15. It´s visible from about the early 30s.

(I would add to this list: decreased look of pores and increased elasticity because of improvements in the elastic fibers)

From Dr Leslie Baumanns blog. She´the chief of the Division of Cosmetic Dermatology and a professor at the University of Miami School of Medicine ,my emphasis in bold:



"Prescription-strength retinoids (better known by brand names like Retin-A, Tazorac, Atralin, Ziana, etc.) and their over-the-counter cousin retinol (available in products like Roc Retinol Correxion Deep Wrinkle Night Cream and Neutrogena Healthy Skin Night Cream may well be the most recommended products in the dermatological arsenal.

OK, I don't have statistics on this one - but I don't have a single colleague who wouldn't back me up on the wonders of retinoids! If you're not using one, though, and still need a little convincing, consider these excellent reasons to check out what you're missing:

1. Sure, just about every new facial cream these days claims to improve wrinkles - but retinoids are the only type of topical cream proven to do just that. Retinoids stimulate your skin to generate collagen and hyaluronic acid, two of the main components of your dermis, which give skin firmness and fullness.

But you don't have to take my word for it: In a study published in 2007, led by doctors at the University of Michigan Medical School, Ann Arbor, 0.4% retinol (a concentration you can even find in many over-the-counter products) was applied to 36 subjects with a mean age of 87 up to 3 times per week. After 24 weeks, the improvement to retinol-treated skin was dramatic, and clearly visible to the naked eye.

2. While retinoids are stimulating skin to produce more collage and hyaluronic acid, they're also slowing the age-related loss of those crucial skin components. That means they're simultaneously preventing lines and wrinkles that haven't yet formed.

3. Of course, there's more to great skin than the absence of lines and wrinkles, and retinoids can also improve a variety of other skin concerns. Let's start with increased radiance: Retinoids are powerful exfoliators, meaning that they help slough off the dead skins cells on skin's surface. In so doing, they smooth skin's texture and reveal younger, healthier cells - leaving you positively glowing.

4. By speeding your skin's natural cell turnover, retinoids can also help fade patches of hyperpigmentation. Sun damage, conditions like melasma, and even minor cuts and bug bites can leave behind dark patches on the skin. Once the cause of that hyperpigmentation is eliminated, it can still take a while for dark patches to disappear naturally. Retinoids, however, will speed up the process by which skin replaces itself, hastening the return of a healthy, even skin tone.

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

6. Finally, retinoids are the best way to get the most bang for your skin-care buck. Yes, a prescription for a retinoid or a good over-the-counter retinol product is an investment - but these wonder products are also the best way to prepare your skin for every other product you use. By sloughing off that top layer of dead skin cells, retinoids prepare skin to better absorb every other skin care ingredient you use.

One final note: As you can see, I'm a big fan of retinoids - but not for women who are pregnant or breast-feeding; they should not use these ingredients."

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4

Edited by Fredrik, 22 November 2008 - 05:48 PM.


#2 Hoon

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:33 PM

I'd like to point out that #5 is highly suspect. While it's true that the topical retinoids tretinoin, tazarotene and adapalene all treat acne, none of them decrease oil production. Only oral isotretinoin has this effect (and it should be noted that while isotretinoin is sometimes used topically to treat photodamage/acne, it does not decrease oil production as the oral form does).

Also, if you are looking at retinoids primarily for the treatment/prevention of wrinkles (#1 and #2 on this list), you would be MUCH better off using a topical retinoid instead of going the oral isotretinoin route (which despite a few studies, one of which Fredrik already posted, has little evidence for this purpose and more side effects compared to tretinoin and tazarotene).

Overall, I'm disappointed in the poor wording of that portion of the article, considering that Dr. Baumann is well-respected and well-exposed (especially since the release of her book, "The Skin Type Solution").

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#3 Fredrik

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 05:30 PM

I'd like to point out that #5 is highly suspect. While it's true that the topical retinoids tretinoin, tazarotene and adapalene all treat acne, none of them decrease oil production. Only oral isotretinoin has this effect (and it should be noted that while isotretinoin is sometimes used topically to treat photodamage/acne, it does not decrease oil production as the oral form does).


I haven´t seen any data that topical retinoids decrease sebum output either. I don´t know if it´s a case of "unpublished data". For those who don´t like the casual style of this writing I recommend reading one of her review articles or her academic book Cosmetic dermatology: principles and practices. She goes into great detail of the causes, prevention and treatment of skin aging there.

#4 kismet

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:01 PM

Does the concentration of isotretinoin or metabolites need to reach a certain threshold before the sebaceous glands are affected? No absorption by the glands?

BTW topical isotretinoin is used quite frequently to treat acne in Europe, at least as frequently as the other retinoids I guess.

#5 HereInTheHole

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:04 PM

I have some ridiculously dry patches on my face which need daily attention. Mechanical exfoliation (scrubbing) removes the flakey skin but leaves the underlying skin red and irritated. Is there a good chance that retinoids will help with the dry patches? Any recommendations?

Edited by NarrativiumX, 24 November 2008 - 08:04 PM.


#6 luminous

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 06:58 PM

Fredrik--I've always wondered something about retinoids. I know you're supposed to use Retin-A at night only. But is there a downside if you were to use a retinoid during the day if you were to top it off with a really good sunscreen?

#7 Eva Victoria

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 08:36 PM

Terrific post, Fredrik!
Thank you for sharing! :)

#8 marqueemoon

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 12:10 AM

Fredrik--I've always wondered something about retinoids. I know you're supposed to use Retin-A at night only. But is there a downside if you were to use a retinoid during the day if you were to top it off with a really good sunscreen?


Retin A becomes ineffective in sunlight.

#9 Fredrik

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:14 PM

Fredrik--I've always wondered something about retinoids. I know you're supposed to use Retin-A at night only. But is there a downside if you were to use a retinoid during the day if you were to top it off with a really good sunscreen?


Retin A becomes ineffective in sunlight.


As luminous illuminates us, tretinoin is degraded by light (yellow light). You can get some benefit by using it twice a day anyway, but I would go for the more stable third generation retinoids for daytime use: tazarotene.

#10 Fredrik

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Posted 26 November 2008 - 04:18 PM

I have some ridiculously dry patches on my face which need daily attention. Mechanical exfoliation (scrubbing) removes the flakey skin but leaves the underlying skin red and irritated. Is there a good chance that retinoids will help with the dry patches? Any recommendations?


Retinoids are being used successfully in some disorders of scaly skin. Remember that tazarotene was originally used to treat psoriasis. But I would recommend you see a dermatologist to exclude any skin disorder like sebborheic dermatitis or some benign change like actinic keratoses which manifests like dry rough patches.

A urea containing cream will hydrate and soften the skin in the meantime. Add a retinoid when you´ve minimized the scaliness and be prepared for some increase in scaliness in the beginning.

Edited by Fredrik, 26 November 2008 - 04:19 PM.


#11 katzenjammer

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 03:32 PM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?

#12 Eva Victoria

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 07:20 PM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?


Use a light Glycerin based face lotion under your sunscreen during the day and avoid products containing alcohol, fragrance and added colour.

#13 Brainbox

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 11:13 AM

What about using retinoids on more delicate parts of the skin, like around eyes?

#14 sentinel

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 01:01 PM

What about using retinoids on more delicate parts of the skin, like around eyes?


I was going to ask about this, as with many products you are often warned to "avoid the sensitive area of skin around the eyes" but obviously one of the key areas we want to address is directly around the eyes.

In my case I am not only looking to reduce the crows feet area to the sides but also I have dark skin beneath my eyes (not pigmentation or allergy based - I think it's just thin) which i would like to address directly.

So is the warning a generic cover-all or is it really a bad idea?

#15 caston

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 01:05 PM

Hm I have 4 packs of Tretinoin here that I haven't even opened yet... I was thinking of just using them on my hands to see what it does to them.

Can anyone think of 6 reasons *not* to use a retinoid?

#16 sentinel

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 01:14 PM

Hm I have 4 packs of Tretinoin here that I haven't even opened yet... I was thinking of just using them on my hands to see what it does to them.

Can anyone think of 6 reasons *not* to use a retinoid?


1) They can make you red
2) They can make you flakey
3) They may not even be what they appear if bought over the internet without prescription :-D
4) They cost you money you could just spend on beer
5) They are a small tube which embody the fact you are way too self conscious about your age and appearance
6) You could pack them up and send them to Sentinel who has got over all of the above.

Now what about my eyes godammit :)

#17 HereInTheHole

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 05:07 PM

Hm I have 4 packs of Tretinoin here that I haven't even opened yet... I was thinking of just using them on my hands to see what it does to them.

Can anyone think of 6 reasons *not* to use a retinoid?


1) They can make you red
2) They can make you flakey
3) They may not even be what they appear if bought over the internet without prescription :)
4) They cost you money you could just spend on beer
5) They are a small tube which embody the fact you are way too self conscious about your age and appearance
6) You could pack them up and send them to Sentinel who has got over all of the above.

Now what about my eyes godammit :)


Number 6 was great after the set-up. :-D

On Dec 5th, I started using tretinoin and tazarotene. Both tubes are the highest strengths available from All Day Chemist. At night, I apply a cream to most of my face, including all around my eyes, even between eyelid and eyebrow (a problem area for me). As Fredrik suggested, I first checked that I didn't have a skin condition (other than standard dryness) that's causing the flakiness.

Here's my experience with tretinoin and tazarotene:

Day 1: Tazarotene. No stinging upon application. Imagining results that are probably just the moisturing effects of the cream.
Day 2: Tretinoin. Some minor stinging above eyes upon application. My skin was already raw there from daily scrubbing. After a couple hours, mild sunburn-like feeling everywhere cream was applied. The next morning, face slightly red and sunburn-like.
Day 3: Tazarotene. No stinging from application. Face still in same condition from Day 2.
Day 4: Tazarotene. Flakiness natural to my skin seems to have decreased slightly. Face still reddish, though. Added tightness to skin that I remember from sunburns years ago. Guessing that's the damage or reaction that sometimes happens with initial retinoid use.

I like to jump right in, shove my face in the fire. But it's probably better to start with a lower strength no matter where you're applying it.

I'll keep going and see what happens. As soon as the skin stops it's negative reaction, I'll report back.

Edited by NarrativiumX, 09 December 2008 - 05:17 PM.


#18 mustardseed41

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Posted 09 December 2008 - 08:19 PM

Hm I have 4 packs of Tretinoin here that I haven't even opened yet... I was thinking of just using them on my hands to see what it does to them.

Can anyone think of 6 reasons *not* to use a retinoid?


No

#19 katzenjammer

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:02 AM

Here's my experience with tretinoin and tazarotene:


Why use both?

#20 katzenjammer

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 01:03 AM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?


Use a light Glycerin based face lotion under your sunscreen during the day and avoid products containing alcohol, fragrance and added colour.


Thanks Eva! I'm not familiar with glycerin. Does the Glycerin help to exfoliate - or moisturize? Cheers! ~katz

#21 HereInTheHole

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 05:09 PM

Here's my experience with tretinoin and tazarotene:


Why use both?


That's a good question. All I can site is Fredrik, who seems to have a firm grasp of the science:

Face and eye area: Tazarotene 0.05% gel (brand name Avage and Tazorac among others). Two days a week I use tretinoin 0.025% gel to be sure to activate all cell receptors (tazarotene is selective).

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=18288


The discomfort, by the way, has nearly disappearred. Redness still there. Sunburn-like peeling occured but seems finished.

#22 Fredrik

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Posted 10 December 2008 - 08:54 PM

Here's my experience with tretinoin and tazarotene:


Why use both?


That's a good question. All I can site is Fredrik, who seems to have a firm grasp of the science:

Face and eye area: Tazarotene 0.05% gel (brand name Avage and Tazorac among others). Two days a week I use tretinoin 0.025% gel to be sure to activate all cell receptors (tazarotene is selective).

http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=18288


I chose to use both but strictly scientifically speaking that should not be necessary since both retinoids are FDA approved to treat aging skin. But which one is the best? Hard to say, they haven´t been tested against each other with the same base and concentration. Tazarotenic acid binds more strongly to the most important gamma receptor than tretinoin and less so to the alpha and beta. Tretinoin binds to all three + the RXR-receptors and is the most studied retinoid.

To sum it up, tazarotene is more selective, have higher affinity to the gamma receptor and should be the best retinoid to treat photodamage BUT tretinoin is still the most studied retinoid so I choose to use both at this time.

Edited by Fredrik, 10 December 2008 - 08:59 PM.


#23 Eva Victoria

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 08:56 PM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?


Use a light Glycerin based face lotion under your sunscreen during the day and avoid products containing alcohol, fragrance and added colour.


Thanks Eva! I'm not familiar with glycerin. Does the Glycerin help to exfoliate - or moisturize? Cheers! ~katz


It is an excellent moisturizing agent found naturally in all living cells.
What is even better that if a product is well formulated it will have a matte/ semi-matte finish on skin! Does not clog pores.

#24 Ben

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 09:15 PM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?


Use a light Glycerin based face lotion under your sunscreen during the day and avoid products containing alcohol, fragrance and added colour.


Thanks Eva! I'm not familiar with glycerin. Does the Glycerin help to exfoliate - or moisturize? Cheers! ~katz


It is an excellent moisturizing agent found naturally in all living cells.
What is even better that if a product is well formulated it will have a matte/ semi-matte finish on skin! Does not clog pores.


Screw the sunscreen, when is your whole skin care line coming?!?!?

#25 Eva Victoria

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Posted 14 December 2008 - 12:49 PM

5. Retinoids are also highly effective in decreasing oil production - in fact, they first came to the attention of the dermatological community for the treatment of acne. (Lo and behold, dermatologists found over the years that the skin of patients they'd been treating for acne had fewer wrinkles and dark spots than untreated skin. That's when retinoids' anti-aging benefits began receiving greater attention.) Because they also exfoliate the dead skin cells that clog pores and contribute to acne, retinoids offer a two-pronged attack against breakouts.

http://health.yahoo....tkBwnYq0brd1IZ4


I've noticed how much less oil I'm producing - however, since the retinoids also leave me a little "crepy" looking, I'm tempted to exfoliate more, which makes my skin even dryer. Any suggestions?


Use a light Glycerin based face lotion under your sunscreen during the day and avoid products containing alcohol, fragrance and added colour.


Thanks Eva! I'm not familiar with glycerin. Does the Glycerin help to exfoliate - or moisturize? Cheers! ~katz


It is an excellent moisturizing agent found naturally in all living cells.
What is even better that if a product is well formulated it will have a matte/ semi-matte finish on skin! Does not clog pores.


Screw the sunscreen, when is your whole skin care line coming?!?!?


:|?
The date is set for the launch February 2009. The line is of 2 Treatment products (RX only) + 2 in-house treatment products for dermatologists. 2 Serums, 2 simple moisturizers (accomplish the treatment products) and 2 moisturizers that are anti-oxidant rich and designed to be used alone. 2 organic sunscreens and 1 inorganic sunscreen and a face wash for all skin types.
All products are free from colourants, fragrance, fillers and ingredients that do not serve as functional.
These products are very concentrated and a little goes a long way!

Edited by Eva Victoria, 14 December 2008 - 01:11 PM.


#26 HereInTheHole

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Posted 19 December 2008 - 07:42 PM

For a few days, I've been entirely past the fire-engine-redness and discomfort from tretinoin. I can apply it nightly over my entire face, including eyelids, with only a mild stinging.

The dryness inherent in my skin is reduced but not gone. Exfoliation is easier now. There seems to be a more youthful color and a more even tone to the skin. Between tretinoin and tazarotene, I think tretinoin works better for my needs, but it's probably too early to be certain of that.

Here's an odd side effect. After a shower, I had been using olive oil. Before I started using the two skin drugs, I needed to blot off the extra olive oil. After the drugs, my skin absorbs what would have been the extra oil within ten or so minutes. The past couple days, instead of the olive oil, I've started applying vitamin d from a 2000 IU capsule. The d is thicker and isn't absorbed as quickly. Without some kind of layer, my skin dries out and cracks. Not pleasant or comfortable.

Edited by NarrativiumX, 19 December 2008 - 07:47 PM.





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