"Does a New Pill Contain the Fountain of Youth?"

So I was watching TV last night and they had this "special" edition of Primetime. They talked about this new supplement called "Protandim." The report made the pill seem very powerful and mysterious, repeatedly asking "Is this the fountain of youth?" and then went on to talk about exotic, faraway herbs, showing an image of a milk thistle plant while the reporter read their Latin names. The ingredients, which I've posted below, are instantly recognizable by any imminst member.

Apparently it increases levels of Superoxide Dismutase and Catalase, which the report said were the body's two antioxidants (what about glutathione?). The reporter took the pill for a few days, and then they measured his "oxidative stress" levels, which were supposedly much lower than before. Actually the company researcher stated they were the level of a twenty year old's. Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out there. The report mildly piqued my interest but when they read the ingredients I realized I am probably getting any supposed benefit already, as I take most of these substances.

Protandim Formula:
Proprietary Blend 675 mg:
* Milk thistle extract (Silybum marianum) (seed)
* Bacopa extract (Bacopa monneri) (aerial part)
* Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera) (root)
* Green tea extract (Camellia sinensis) (leaf)
* Turmeric extract (Curcuma longa) (rhizome)

Protandim
ABC News

"what about glutathione"

I believe other more common supps e.g. vit C, selsnium, NAC raise gultathione, but raising SOD and catalase is tougher.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

See the following thread on Protandim, etc:

http://www.imminst.o...&hl=lifeline&s=

Also see my recent comments:

http://www.fightagin...ives/000502.php

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme
reason@longevitymeme.org
http://www.longevitymeme.org

Calling it the "fountain of youth" is a little overboard.

With that said, I think the ingredients list is good. At first I was concerned about the use of curcumin without bioperine as it is not very bioavailable. Then I remembered that I read a study stating that silymarin is also an inhibitor of cytochrome p-450. I wonder how powerful silymarin vs bioperine is regarding the inhibition of that particular enzyme.

Stellar,

If you aren't aware of the disadvantages of bioperine and inhibiting P450 you should search AORsupports old posts. Although there are a number of P450 enzymes and the issue is less black and white then I had thought previously, I do not believe bioperine is something I'd want to take.

Reason,

"The immediate future of health and longevity is not in pills, folks. There isn't anything out there proven to do better than simple calorie restriction"

That is a very interesting comment. Leaving aside the issue of extending lifespan the fact is most people (myself included) have no desire to do CR, I do believe that a number of supps can play a signicant role in promoting health.


I would be curious LifeMirage's take on your comments.

The fact that the supplement forums were considered potentially expendible, and what seems to be a lack of interest in the supp forums by many of the directors here has always been a puzzle (Do they believe as you do? Do they do CR? Do they have a set supp regimen or just not post? Do they not take supps?)


Edit: the kicker is "immediate future". I'm speaking of the here and now today and next week. I think I understand his comment now as I guess his "immediate future" is more future and less next week.

As far as bioenginering the human body....did you read Jurassic park? Remember how they thought they had everything thought of?

Edited by scottl, 03 June 2005 - 10:44 PM.

Well, for good measure, I've thrown my own analysis into the mix.
http://longevityfirs..._in_on_p_1.html

Excerpt:

If all that Protandim can accomplish—and until long-term studies are carried out, the best we should hope for—is to shift the Gompertz Curve down, then an older person will see about as much benefit as a younger person: a modest, perhaps even small, absolute increase in remaining years before death.

More importantly, taking Protandim before you reach middle age is probably just a waste of money. Adding 7 years (best-case realistic scenario) at age 20, versus 5–6 years if you wait until age 50, doesn’t justify the extra expense of tens of thousands of dollars over those 30 years, especially given how fast biotech is advancing. If you’re not in your middle aged years yet, your money would be much better spent researching next-generation technologies that might actually flatten the Gompertz Curve, and perhaps even make it horizontal altogether. One such contender is Dr. de Grey’s SENS, a biotechnological platform that has received much press attention lately, but to date has received no serious funding.

If those are the ingredients to the fountain of youth most of us participating in this forum should be immortal already )

Seriously. Supplements have their role to play, but we aren't going to see any real advances in longevity without some more advances in biotechnology like Aubrey de Grey's SENS.

I do agree that taking supplements is something we can do right this minute, that's why I take them. CR may be more effective but I'm too athletic for it. The 1st law of thermodynamics makes sure of that.

Protandim Formula:
Proprietary Blend 675 mg:
    * Milk thistle extract (Silybum marianum) (seed)
    * Bacopa extract (Bacopa monneri) (aerial part)
    * Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera) (root)
    * Green tea extract (Camellia sinensis) (leaf)
    * Turmeric extract (Curcuma longa) (rhizome)

Heh, quoting myself. Anyway, I just though of this: that formula is for one pill. You're only supposed to take one per day. This costs $50 per month. Regarding the ingredients, AOR recommends 1 capsule of a 300mg bacopa extract daily, 1-2 capsules of their 750mg extract of ashwagandha, 1-3 capsules of a 700 mg green tea extract and 1-8 capsules of a 500mg turmeric extract. Seeing as how AOR is one of the most rigorous companies when it comes to research backing for their ingredients and dosage, it seems logical to trust their word. At only 615mg per capsule, there's no way that Protandim is delivering anywhere near optimal levels of the ingredients it contains, and at a hefty premium over buying from a more reputable source like AOR.

On the other hand, I'm sure their business model works (catering to the non-google'd).

(dantecubit)
Protandim Formula:
Proprietary Blend 675 mg:
    * Milk thistle extract (Silybum marianum) (seed)
    * Bacopa extract (Bacopa monneri) (aerial part)
    * Ashwagandha (Withania somnifera) (root)
    * Green tea extract (Camellia sinensis) (leaf)
    * Turmeric extract (Curcuma longa) (rhizome)

Heh, quoting myself. Anyway, I just though of this: that formula is for one pill. You're only supposed to take one per day. This costs $50 per month. Regarding the ingredients, AOR recommends 1 capsule of a 300mg bacopa extract daily, 1-2 capsules of their 750mg extract of ashwagandha, 1-3 capsules of a 700 mg green tea extract and 1-8 capsules of a 500mg turmeric extract. Seeing as how AOR is one of the most rigorous companies when it comes to research backing for their ingredients and dosage, it seems logical to trust their word. At only 615mg per capsule, there's no way that Protandim is delivering anywhere near optimal levels of the ingredients it contains, and at a hefty premium over buying from a more reputable source like AOR.

Very interesting. In my article, I covered two important issues. One, if you take too much of this product, then you risk increasing the acceleration of your mortality rate (roughly speaking, you'll "age" faster), even though in the short term you'll be less likely to die. In other words, taking too much of this product over a long period of time (like, say, if you're in your 30's or younger and plan on taking this product for life), it's probably doing as much harm as good.

Well, from what dantecubit has posted, it thankfully looks like this won't be a problem for those taking the recommended dosage of Protandim. [tung]

However, the second issue I brought up was that this is probably a waste of money. Well, if the dosage is probably lower than optimal, then on top of paying out nearly $20,000 over the next 30 years, a 20- or 30-year-old who starts taking Protandim today may not even be getting the full benefit. Of course, you could try doubling the dosage, but that means $40,000 over the next 30 years, and you still run the risk of taking too much, or not getting enough.

On the other hand, spending that $50 a month on an MPrize donation could make a big difference in the war on aging. If 20 people, in their 30's and under, decided to donate $50 a month to the MPrize, instead of blowing it on Protandim, then that'd be $1,000 a month. Doesn't sound like much, but it adds up. Every dollar raised this year for the MPrize will make the prize look that much more respectable this time next year, helping raise an extra dollar or two or five next year that would not have been possible to raise without your donation today. And given that research prizes typically help generate $10-$50 in research for every dollar in the prize, that means that a dollar donated this year could help stimulate $20 to $300 in anti-aging research in the years ahead of us. And if that brings a cure for aging a year sooner, that would make up for the year you might lose by not blowing your money on Protandim now. Plus, as a bonus, you get to tell your great-great-great-great grandchildren that you helped save millions of lives by accelerating the cure for aging.

Food for thought. Or is that a supplement for thought?

Protandim like almost any expensive packaged selection of supps is probably not worth it.

At 45 years old taking antioxidants to try and increase my glutathione peroxidase, catalase, and SOD is worth it IMHO.

I agree that I'd take a hell of a lot less supps if I were under 30.

Given that that the dose response curve to e.g. antioxidants is (I would suspect) an inverted U shape, certainly too much antioxidants is not good, as is not enough. Finding the optimal amount...is quite frankly a crap shoot to my knowledge as I do not believe there are any tests presently that are of much help with this (I could be way off on this one--I know there are some tests but not sure they are good enough to be really helpful). Also as for other supps, I believe the optimal amounts will vary from person to person.

Ever thought of doing a serious study?


I once read a kind of a deadpan article by an epidemiologist on heart bypass operations, and I was struck by his statement to the following effect.

Heart bypass operations are still being debated (paging Lazarus on debate and the advancement of understanding) as to whether they do actually reduce the mortality of people.

Can anyone here in this thread tell me where I can find careful studies to learn whether people taking all kinds of substances to extend their lifespan do live longer than similar people who don't.

Susma

Susma,

You've already demonstrated unequivocally that you have no interest in supplements.

You are correct about bypass surgery in general--although there might be some select groups (depending on which vessell that is blocked) that benefit in terms of mortality, and there is data that it effects quality of life, if not quanity.

"Can anyone here in this thread tell me where I can find careful studies to learn whether people taking all kinds of substances to extend their lifespan do live longer than similar people who don't. "

Susma if you think about this..please do for a minute....in order to show increase in lifetime in humans the study would have to follow several people taking supps until they die. And then a control group until they die. and they study would take...what...decades? and by then there would be better supplements.

So if you think about this you know these studies do not exist, and again you are just posting to make yourself feel better about your decision not to take supps. Not to take supps is your right. Taking up other people's time trying to justify yourself....is why people get annoyed at you.

Study possibilities are present.

Susma if you think about this..please do for a minute....in order to show increase in lifetime in humans the study would have to follow several people taking supps until they die. And then a control group until they die. and they study would take...what...decades? and by then there would be better supplements.

So if you think about this you know these studies do not exist, and again you are just posting to make yourself feel better about your decision not to take supps. Not to take supps is your right. Taking up other people's time trying to justify yourself....is why people get annoyed at you.

Thanks, Scottl, for your courteous attention to my query.


Right off the cuff I could think of life insurance companies which might have made already such studies or could be interested in making them. Then also enough years have already transpired since people started taking life-extending pharmaceutical products, modestly counting maybe as much as twenty-years -- if not more.


I never made any deliberated decision to not take life-extending pharmaceutical products, just as I didn't in regard to food supplements like vitamins, unlike a brother of mine who swallows vitamin tablets and capsules by cocktail quasntity at every meal -- and maybe thereby developing bleeding ulcers -- and he being a doctor at that.

I just never to the present feel the impulse to think about making such a decision.

I do have a bias against ingesting artificial substances for health and long life, because I believe that if people could live a hundred years without such substances but eating only natural foods, then I don't think I have to take those supplements either. Maybe that could be argued as equivalent to a decision.

Susma

Study possibilities are present.

Susma if you think about this..please do for a minute....in order to show increase in lifetime in humans the study would have to follow several people taking supps until they die. And then a control group until they die. and they study would take...what...decades? and by then there would be better supplements.

So if you think about this you know these studies do not exist, and again you are just posting to make yourself feel better about your decision not to take supps. Not to take supps is your right. Taking up other people's time trying to justify yourself....is why people get annoyed at you.

I never made any deliberated decision to not take life-extending pharmaceutical products, just as I didn't in regard to food supplements like vitamins, unlike a brother of mine who swallows vitamin tablets and capsules by cocktail quasntity at every meal -- and maybe thereby developing bleeding ulcers -- and he being a doctor at that.


Susma

Ulcers are caused by H. pylori, not vitamins.

Gotta weigh in here-

Science of the formulation aside (I wouldn't take the stuff, at best I believe it would be worthless) there is a story here.

Lifeline Therapeutics (pxxrotamdim) came to being as a company in the past 12 months via a reverse acquisition of an existing publicly traded company. Yaak River Resources - A gold mining venture I believe (ha!-apt). This tactic, while valid, is historically indicative of a business deserving of eagle eyed scrutiny for scam potential. I read much of the EDGAR filings over the past few days. Any public company must file quarterly reports called 10-Q's and an annual report, a 10-K. Well if you want to read a pump and dump scheme in the making, read these. The financials are a train wreck, and the company is built on a mountain of debt and multiple private placements of stock.

Before they had a formulation, a product, a sale, or a profit, they donated 200,000 shares of stock to the Lifeline Orphan Foundation? Please! I would love to find out just who is on the board of directors of that orphanage. Anybody with better research resources than I, please post it publicly.

I am convinced this shell company will receive a lot of press over the next couple of years. And not for it's life extending product. I simply do not have time to dissect the financials on this forum, but one laughable thing I would point out-

"As of March 31, 2005, the value of finished goods was approximately $5,700"

Watch this one my friends. It is pure snake-oil.

Pete

As I already mentioned in my blog article, once the scrutiny started pouring in, Lifeline password-protected their entire website for upwards of an hour. I doubt it was to protect themselves from a slashdotting effect, since an hour isn't much time to deflect the kind of traffic they were getting. More than likely, they had information publicly available that they didn't think would stand the test of scrutiny (or if it did, they at least needed an hour to check and make sure that it would stand public scrutiny). Not a good start, in my opinion.

Of course, they could have had good reasons for taking this course of action, but in light of everything I've read in following this story, I'm erring on the side of suspicion, not on the side of giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I hate it when TV shows sell something as the "fountain of youth" whilst at the same time giving you a name of a product that contains the needed ingredients.

So a company payed the TV station $50,000 to do the show and their supplements sold out immeditely all over the country.

I live in Melbourne Australia and I see this all the time on so called "Current Affairs" shows like "Today Tonight" and "A current affair". The do promos for something that will prevent aging or cure arthritis (this is a huge one). The supplement name is given but not the ingredients. The next day I go to the health shop and they have sold out. I went to look at the label. When I finally get a chance to look at the label, the supplement contains stuff that everyday supplements contain. So much for current affairs. Shows like "A current Affair" and "Today Tonight" are not even what they state they are. They're not today or tonight, they are just marketing vehicles.

ScottL, in regards to glutathione.....I am currently conducting research looking at the effects of resistance training and supplementation on extracellular and intracellular oxidaised and reduced glutathione levels, in aged males. I will have the result most like in the next few months or so. I will keep you updated

SIDE NOTE: Can you spell check these posts or do grammatical checks. I re-read my posts after I post them and they are terrible. What sort of view am I giving everyone about Australians.

"ScottL, in regards to glutathione.....I am currently conducting research looking at the effects of resistance training and supplementation on extracellular and intracellular oxidaised and reduced glutathione levels, in aged males. I will have the result most like in the next few months or so. I will keep you updated"

I suspect the timing of e.g. the supplementation with regard to the exercise will be crucial. There is an abstract I don't understand where...? NAC and vit C were given peri-exercise and the results were...interesting to put it mildly.

Please do keep me updated.

I hate it when TV shows sell something as the "fountain of youth" whilst at the same time giving you a name of a product that contains the needed ingredients.

So a company payed the TV station $50,000 to do the show and their supplements sold out immeditely all over the country.

I live in Melbourne Australia and I see this all the time on so called "Current Affairs" shows like "Today Tonight" and "A current affair". The do promos for something that will prevent aging or cure arthritis (this is a huge one). The supplement name is given but not the ingredients. The next day I go to the health shop and they have sold out. I went to look at the label. When I finally get a chance to look at the label, the supplement contains stuff that everyday supplements contain. So much for current affairs. Shows like "A current Affair" and "Today Tonight" are not even what they state they are. They're not today or tonight, they are just marketing vehicles.

ScottL, in regards to glutathione.....I am currently conducting research looking at the effects of resistance training and supplementation on extracellular and intracellular oxidaised and reduced glutathione levels, in aged males. I will have the result most like in the next few months or so. I will keep you updated

Hah! Would you believe I was just about to post something similar about "A Current Affair" before I read this post? I remember a few months ago they had a report on "a miracle cure for behavioural problems in kids" when all the so-called cure was just a pill containing both Fish Oil and Evening Primrose Oil.

This is why I do not watch TV or read obviously biased newspapers. I dont watch the football or drink beer either and people do not know to talk about with me. They think I am a freak.

Hmmmmm.....?

zoolander, lets face it... most folks are living in a Madison avenue world of quick fixes and painless curealls. I cut my cable off last month which would qualify me as a freek these days but I'm coming to view the world as a big video game full of too many distractions. Even my partner of nearly ten years isn't someone I can share a lot with about this journey we are on. We are trying to better understand what makes us tick and what is so scary to others is we actually want to take control of these factors and change (hopefully improve) or "augment" ourselves. It is definately a lonely place to be. This forum is our safehouse in our quest for truth and I don't feel so alone here. FREEKY!

you freak!

[lol] FREAK YOU!!!

Time to freak out!!

Seriously, you are right about this being one of the few places to discuss high level concepts and the future of humanity. It is a mind refuge for me.

I just read this whole thread about Protandim for the first time. Granted it's kind of old and at the time not as much was known about Protandim, but geez, what a bunch of negative Nancy's. In the end it turns out everyone was wrong. The only thing said that comes close to right is about the price, it is high. I'm sure it will come down after they get some competition. This should be a lesson to some of you. you don't need mega doses of supplements to get results. You need the right dose. The evidance that Protandim works very well is found here.

http://www.protandim.....FRBM 2006.pdf

Thanks for reviving this thread...I never noticed it before. Of course their study means the "proprietary blend" is no longer secret;

Materials and methods
This study involving human subjects was approved by the Colorado Multiple Institution Review Board (COMIRB 04-0556). The dietary supplement Protandim (Lifeline Therapeutics, Inc., Denver, CO, USA) was provided as a once daily capsule of 675 mg, consisting of the following:

B. monniera (45% bacosides), 150 mg;
S. marianum (70–80% silymarin), 225 mg;
W. somnifera powder, 150 mg;
green tea, 98% polyphenols and 45% (
)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate, 75 mg;
turmeric (95% curcumin), 75 mg.

These five standardized plant extracts were supplied by the Chemins Co. (Colorado Springs, CO, USA).

So that basically comes down to this herbal list (translating from the scientific names):

Bacopa (45% bacosides)
Milk Thistle (80% silymarin)
Ashwagandha (150mg)
Green Tea (98% polyphenols, and aprox. 34 mg EgCG)
Turmeric (95% Curcuminoids)

And that translates into this list for those that know better:

$6.98 - AOR, Bacopa Enlighten, 300mg, 50% baccosides [note: this is twice the amount in Protandim.]
$4.66 - Jarrow Silymarin 80%, 150 mg
$3.41 - Jarrow Ashwagandha, 225 mg [note: this is slightly more than the amount in Protandim. More potent as well.]
$2.66 - Jarrow Formulas Green Tea 50 (74 mg EgCG) [note: this is twice the amount of EgCG in Protandim]
$4.72 - Jarrow Curcumin 95
------
22.43 (adjusted monthly cost)

The Protandim will cost you over twice as much as doing it yourself, and with better ingredients (more potent, slightly higher amounts).

I love how companies patent smushing together ingredients (that people are already taking) into a single pill and call it "new". Uggh. Maybe I'll patent a soft gel with rum and coke in it...but at my "proprietary blend" amounts.

One other interesting bit from their FAQs...

Is there a test I can have to see if Protandim is working?
The scientific results of Protandim’s effectiveness have been shown by a test done in research laboratories that measures the amount of TBARS in the blood. TBARS is an indicator of oxidative stress.

The TBARS test is not currently commercially available. Why not? Before Protandim, there was no way to reduce oxidative stress as measured by TBARS, so there was no need to measure it and no consumer demand for the test.

Now that consumers are interested in measuring TBARS, it is possible that the test will become available to doctors and/or directly to consumers. Lifeline Therapeutics will let Protandim users know as soon as a validated test is available.

I'd like to have this test done, and I assume most here would as well. I also assume that most of us would see some pretty good results on this test given our current stacks.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

Hi kevink, I agree with you. I think your price analysis is pretty accurate. I,m thinking the retail price will come down to about $29 a bottle, and Internet discounters selling for maybe $19-$21. According to sec filings the company making Protandim is making about 80% profit at $50 a bottle. This leaves a lot of room to drop the price. In the ABC program back in June Dr. McCord said the price would probably come down after research and development costs are covered.

It does seem to be true you can mix your own and get the same results now that the proportions are known, but as I've seen mentioned here before, most people won't even take a multivitamin, so it's not that likely many people will go to that much trouble. Most of the people on this board are light years ahead of the average supplement taker.

The main thing about Protandim is it works better than anything else at reducing oxidative stress and millions of people will find out about it now.