• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

CR vs Ad lib pics


  • Please log in to reply
57 replies to this topic

#1 Matt

  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 23 March 2007 - 10:18 PM


Its quite interesting just how different ad lib vs CR monkeys look. I'll add more shortly, but today I came across a picture which is a bit low res, however, you can see a big difference in their appearance. Obviously just eating a healthy diet will hold back some of those signs of aging, but to the extent that CR will? It will be interesting to see how long term CR affects humans too. We already have quite a few long term CRONers. The longer they CR the more they diverge in their appearance from their peers.

Both the same age, guess whos CR'd! lol
Posted Image

Heres another two roughly the same age. No prizes for guessing whos the CR'd one :)

Posted Image

Posted Image

#2 marqueemoon

  • Guest
  • 78 posts
  • 0

Posted 24 March 2007 - 06:21 AM

Is it true that one of the CR monkeys was the human equivalent of 121 or so when he died?

#3 marqueemoon

  • Guest
  • 78 posts
  • 0

Posted 24 March 2007 - 06:31 AM

Also, do you know when in life these monkeys started on CR?

#4 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 24 March 2007 - 02:07 PM

Is it true that one of the CR monkeys was the human equivalent of 121 or so when he died?


He was 41 when he died (123 human years). He wasn't CR'd until the latter part of his life either... equiv to around 50-60 year old human.

The oldest documented rhesus monkey on record was 30% CR'd for half of his adult life. In this picture he may have been at an age equivalent to 114 human years according to this article http://www.karlloren.com/diet/p108.htm
Posted Image

Edited by Matt, 24 March 2007 - 02:58 PM.


#5 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 29 March 2007 - 04:23 PM

From charlie rose show

http://www.matthewlake.plus.com/images/CR'd%20vs%20ad%20lib.JPG

#6 marqueemoon

  • Guest
  • 78 posts
  • 0

Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:34 PM

^Do you know if those are the same monkeys pictured above?

#7 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 12 May 2007 - 10:13 AM

They are both rhesus monkeys, one under calorie restriction (on the left) and the ad lib monkey on the right. When these comparisons are done, they are usually within a 0-2 year age difference. No age was stated on charlie rose show. But looking from the monkey on the right it must at least late 20's.

#8 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 30 July 2007 - 02:55 AM

Taken from this website http://www.jsonline.....aspx?id=415837

A small sign on the cage of Ludwig, an older but fit-looking rhesus monkey, warns "caution, grabby." Understandably, Ludwig reaches out of his cage a lot. He's been on an extremely low-calorie, experimental diet for years and he probably would eat anything he could get his hands on. At the same time, Ludwig's handlers are hoping to get a better grasp of a quickly evolving concept that could prove to be a mini fountain of youth...

#9 spins

  • Guest
  • 177 posts
  • 1
  • Location:UK

Posted 19 August 2007 - 09:47 PM

Those pictures are incredibly persuasive that CR also retards the aging process in (relatively) long-lived, high-order mammals such as primates and not just mice, fruit flies and yeast etc.

Very impressed.

#10 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 19 August 2007 - 11:55 PM

Hey spins... I thought I was the only one that could really notice the difference on this forum lol.

#11 spins

  • Guest
  • 177 posts
  • 1
  • Location:UK

Posted 27 August 2007 - 12:35 AM

Yeah there is definitely a difference. ;-)

I wish there were pictures of all the monkeys involved in the experiment, my skeptical mind keeps kicking in and saying that they are simply showing the worst looking Ad Lib and the best looking CR monkeys. If only you could go back in time and redo the experiment but switch the diet around, would the monkey that was previously on the CR diet look older at this age and have any age related complications such as Type II diabetes etc, and would the other now get the health benefits associated with the CR diet? What would also be interesting is if you had a third group who ate the normal recommended calorie intake, not Ad Lib per say, but very high in nutrients, would they get similar benefits as the CR group or would it be somewhere in between? If only we had all the answers and data already available in primates.

As I said though, it's still incredibly persuasive evidence that CR, if done correctly, can (or could) significantly retard the aging process.

#12 Shannon Vyff

  • Life Member, Director Lead Moderator
  • 3,897 posts
  • 702
  • Location:Boston, MA

Posted 27 August 2007 - 03:36 AM

Thanks for the pics! Staying on CR, even if there is not a great increase at the very end--it gives us decades more of good health in our middle age years.

#13 Live Forever

  • Guest Recorder
  • 7,475 posts
  • 9
  • Location:Atlanta, GA USA

Posted 27 August 2007 - 03:50 AM

Matt, can you go ahead and create a pill for me to be able to get the benefits of CR without doing what you are doing?

Thanks, I expect it by lunch tomorrow. :))

#14 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 27 August 2007 - 12:39 PM

I wish there were pictures of all the monkeys involved in the experiment, my skeptical mind keeps kicking in and saying that they are simply showing the worst looking Ad Lib and the best looking CR monkeys.


Yes of course, I have also wondered this. But what do we see in other animals that are on Calorie Restriction? A big difference in appearance, so it shouldn't be all that unexpected. However we take the word of the people who are looking after these rhesus monkeys and the reporters that go in there and look around. And general consensus is that the CR monkeys look a lot healthier, and it's obvious from the photos (unless you don't know what to look for). The other way you would have a good idea is obviously by having genetically identical rhesus monkeys, and see how they diverge in their appearance. However we do have a early picture of two monkeys Johann and Eeyore. What is very obvious is the hair changed color on the ad lib, and this tends to happen as any animal gets older. With eeyore, just looking at the hair and facial features it looks much younger, the color consistency and tidiness is obvious too. So if you were to say which one of these pictures of ad lib vs cr is best example, it would be that one because they compared them at a young age, then again 13 years later.

What would also be interesting is if you had a third group who ate the normal recommended calorie intake, not Ad Lib per say, but very high in nutrients, would they get similar benefits as the CR group or would it be somewhere in between? If only we had all the answers and data already available in primates.


Well I don't think the diets are all that adequate, even for the CR monkeys. So the study could have been done better IMO. The extension in life is what we're all interested in though, and if the theory holds up, we should see around a 30% extension in life.

As I said though, it's still incredibly persuasive evidence that CR, if done correctly, can (or could) significantly retard the aging process.


It does look promising, but obviously people would be more impressed if it were humans as people can identify difference in age better. Most of us here probably don't know exactly what to look for in animals compared to the carers. This is why I feel there was very little response to the thread initially.

We may actually find out some more details soon on mortality from Group 1 at Wisconsin because I believe this group is aged between 28-32 years. They were the first lot of monkeys to be put on CR, then later more monkeys were added.

Edited by Matt, 27 August 2007 - 03:04 PM.


#15 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 12 September 2007 - 06:54 PM

A video was posted on CR which showed the monkeys, one or cr and one ad lib. This one was much more clearer so I took a screen shot (the video can be found here http://www.kqed.org/...vision/view/569 )

Posted Image

The CR monkey on the left and the ad lib money is on the right. They are both closely age matched.

#16 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 01 March 2008 - 12:36 AM

Here is another comparison. The monkey Eeyore on the right column looks far more youthful, especially its coat.

Attached Files


Edited by Matt, 01 March 2008 - 12:37 AM.


#17 Grail

  • Guest, F@H
  • 252 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Australia

Posted 13 March 2008 - 02:47 AM

Is it just me, or do all these monkeys look depressed (emo monkeys?)?
-1 for CR? :D

#18 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 13 March 2008 - 02:50 AM

I don't think they all look depressed... I don't quite see how you can see this. You are basing this on the shape of the mouth? lol But the one in the second picture looks 'curious' to me...

But yes, apparently the Monkeys from the NIA studies have been depressed. Wouldn't you be if you lived in a small cage all your life?

Edited by Matt, 13 March 2008 - 02:52 AM.


#19 Grail

  • Guest, F@H
  • 252 posts
  • 12
  • Location:Australia

Posted 13 March 2008 - 04:35 AM

Yes, yes I would poor chaps. Well you could say that it's that, but look at your profile pic, you're not smiling either! :O

On another note, check out the pupils on this fellow (probably to do with lighting?):

Posted Image

#20 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 13 March 2008 - 05:45 AM

Hmm, I don't know! To me it looks like his left is pupil has dilated, while the other not... However, there are some interviews with canto, that monkey above and is supposed to be in Amazing health for his age (25 years which is around 75 for a human).

#21 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 03 June 2008 - 08:46 PM

Posted Image

CR monkey is 32 years old, ad lib monkey is 30 years old. The CR one still looks like hes in his youth but is actually the equivalent to a 96 year old human.

Edited by Matt, 03 June 2008 - 09:04 PM.


#22 VictorBjoerk

  • Member, Life Member
  • 1,763 posts
  • 91
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 04 June 2008 - 04:56 PM

The latest pictures are just amazing! Are they newly taken? How long do this type of monkey live naturally?

#23 forever freedom

  • Guest
  • 2,362 posts
  • 67

Posted 04 June 2008 - 05:17 PM

Nice pics indeed. Are they recent? Where can i get more info on this research going on?

#24 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 04 June 2008 - 09:34 PM

The latest pictures are just amazing! Are they newly taken? How long do this type of monkey live naturally?


In captivity they live 25 - 27 years on average. This would be equivalent to a 75 - 81 year old human, which fairly represents the lifespan of human populations in developed countries...

It's amazing that just feeding 30% less of the same diet can have dramatic impact.

#25 VictorBjoerk

  • Member, Life Member
  • 1,763 posts
  • 91
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 04 June 2008 - 10:03 PM

The problem I see is that noone despite all billions of people have lived to more than 122. Someone somewhere should by chance have been on such a diet and even managed to live to 130-140 and have the documents to prove it. Could Roy Walford have been overestimating the effect it will have on humans?. When looking at these monkey studies it seems very possible that some people should be able to live to 120-130 by doing this.Apparently many people on Okinawa have been on this type of diet and benefitted from it but still they don't live much longer than 100.

#26 kismet

  • Guest
  • 2,984 posts
  • 424
  • Location:Austria, Vienna

Posted 06 June 2008 - 07:25 PM

No one really knows the effect it will have on humans.

However, I disagree, as I find it very unlikely for someone born prior to 1900 to fullfill all those criteria by chance: a. the necessary documents to prove their age b. having had a healthy and balanced diet through most of life c. having been on CR -or- IF for most part of their life d. not dying from war, crime, accident, disease or poverty & starvation (that's my major objection) e. no dangerous congenital disorders (genes that are neutral or favourable for achieving a life span of 100+)

Didn't some people say that the Okinawans have not been on CR for a really long time? What about their Diet, was it healthy and balanced all the time?

The problem I see is that noone despite all billions of people have lived to more than 122. Someone somewhere should by chance have been on such a diet and even managed to live to 130-140 and have the documents to prove it. Could Roy Walford have been overestimating the effect it will have on humans?. When looking at these monkey studies it seems very possible that some people should be able to live to 120-130 by doing this.Apparently many people on Okinawa have been on this type of diet and benefitted from it but still they don't live much longer than 100.


Edited by kismet, 06 June 2008 - 07:54 PM.


#27 forever freedom

  • Guest
  • 2,362 posts
  • 67

Posted 06 June 2008 - 07:32 PM

I also think that if CR did make us live for beyond 120, we would have already known of someone who lived to his 130s, or 140s, or beyond. The chances that someone would have lived a diet similar to lifelong CRON, and if lived very long not being noticed is very unlikely i think.

#28 VictorBjoerk

  • Member, Life Member
  • 1,763 posts
  • 91
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 06 June 2008 - 08:11 PM

Yes of all millions of people who have existed during the last century in e.g europe noone has reached that kind of ages.I figure some people however may have had eaten a CRAN diet throughout their life however maybe not CRON.Imagine all the people staying thin and eating antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables in France,Spain,Italy etc....And noone in the 130-140 age range....

#29 Matt

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 2,862 posts
  • 149
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • NO

Posted 06 June 2008 - 08:36 PM

Okinawans were only really CR'd until the late 1950's, and were only CR'd half their adult lives. Spindlers studies show that gene expression of CR can revert completely to ad lib levels within weeks or months of going back to ad lib, and even genes that took prolonged periods of times like 1-2 years in rodents can go back to ad lib levels within weeks.

Remember that Calorie restriction is not just about obesity avoidance either, rodent type CR you would be looking at someone who was quite underweight all through their life... CR might not have worked in the past before as well because of infectious disease, of which we have some control over now with antibiotics.

Have any of you yet read Michaels Paper of WHY CR has a high chance of working in humans? It was in response to Aubrey De Greys paper why CR wouldn't work.

#30 Johan

  • Guest, F@H
  • 472 posts
  • 9
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 06 June 2008 - 11:14 PM

Have any of you yet read Michaels Paper of WHY CR has a high chance of working in humans? It was in response to Aubrey De Greys paper why CR wouldn't work.

I haven't read it, but I would like to. Is it available somewhere?




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users