Carnosine: low dose effects

ISTM, many people are taking carnosine in gram dose, but perhaps lower doses can be beneficial for some.

I'm again taking 50-100mg carnosine/day with weekends off, since I get histamine reactions (respiratory problems, skin reactions (hives), muscle twitching, blocked sinuses, you name it) from 500mg, - possibly even lower, - doses for several days.
Marios Kyriazis, MD have shown in a small study that small dose carnosine, does have an effect on urinary MDA (a product of lipid peroxidation, associated with age-related cross-linking of proteins and DNA);
in some people a 50mg and 100mg dose was shown to have a measurable effect on urinary MDA, improving from "high" to "medium", to "low", and some people experienced an effect from 200mg carnosine. Increasing the dose up to 1000mg, did not improve the beneficial results further.
Possibly some people have a genetic predisposition to a low activity of carnosinase (the enzyme that "destroys" carnosine, releasing alanine and histidine), leaving increased amounts of carnosine in the body.

Does grams of carnosine offer additional positive effects?
Also, some people (dose?) did not show any changes in their MDA from carnosine.

Warning, hypothesis:

Maybe the carnosinase activity is the big variable here, so that in one individual 100mg doses of carnosine are effective already while in other 1G or more are needed. On the other hand there could be a counter effect since most of the unfavourable side effects are due to histamine overload which is produced by acting carnosinase which in certain people already occurs at low dose. I wonder if in these people that are already sensitive to histamine at low dose of carnosine the positive effect of carnosine is manifested at an even lower dose below the threshold after wich the histamine overload occurs, in which it will not be acounter effect at all, just huge individual differences.

Edited by brainbox, 05 June 2007 - 12:17 PM.

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You could just take beta-alanine as a carnosine precursor (with no histamine). Very effective at increasing carnosine in muscle tissue.

so persumably beta-alamine can be stacked alongside creatine for strength+ endurance. I've heard you need some sort of time-release version?

so persumably beta-alamine can be stacked alongside creatine for strength+ endurance. I've heard you need some sort of time-release version?

You can just take it in multiple doses. The benefits are not limited to strength and endurance. It is proven that BA increases muscle carnosine. It is not proven, but likely, it will increase carosine in other tissues. BA itself has antiglycation properties (but not as strong as carnosine).

You could just take beta-alanine as a carnosine precursor (with no histamine).  Very effective at increasing carnosine in muscle tissue.

Yep. Unfortunatly I did not find a supplier of it within the EU.

You could just take beta-alanine as a carnosine precursor (with no histamine).  Very effective at increasing carnosine in muscle tissue.

Yep. Unfortunatly I did not find a supplier of it within the EU.

http://www.bulkpowde...Prod=141&xSec=8

Hey, thanks, great!

so persumably beta-alamine can be stacked alongside creatine for strength+ endurance. I've heard you need some sort of time-release version?

You can just take it in multiple doses. The benefits are not limited to strength and endurance. It is proven that BA increases muscle carnosine. It is not proven, but likely, it will increase carosine in other tissues. BA itself has antiglycation properties (but not as strong as carnosine).

would muscle carnosine lead to less oxidative stress or more growth potential?

FYI

J Neurosci Res. 1996 Jan 1;43(1):112-9.Links
Dietary beta-alanine results in taurine depletion and cerebellar damage in adult cats.Lu P, Xu W, Sturman JA.
Department of Developmental Biochemistry, New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Staten Island, USA.

We have used the taurine analogue, beta-alanine, to perturb the taurine concentrations in taurine-supplemented and taurine-deprived adult cats. By using 5% beta-alanine in the drinking water for 20 weeks, both groups of cats had greatly reduced brain taurine concentrations. Taurine-supplemented cat brain accumulated relatively small amounts of beta-alanine whereas taurine-deprived cats accumulated large amounts of beta-alanine. The cerebellum of cats treated with beta-alanine had a number of pathological changes compared with similar cats drinking water alone. The changes were more severe in the taurine-deprived cats, and included reduced numbers of granule and Purkinje cells, with many of those remaining appearing pyknotic and dying. Long swollen fibers were seen in the white matter, resembling Rosenthal fibers described in some human cerebellar diseases. There was also prominent gliosis. Using antibodies to beta-alanine and taurine, beta-alanine was localized in Purkinje cell soma and dendrites, in Golgi II cells, and in some granule cells, especially in taurine-deprived cats treated with beta-alanine. Taurine appears to have been virtually eliminated from Purkinje and granule cells, and concentrated in Golgi II cells and glia. We conclude that beta-alanine is responsible for these neurotoxic pathological changes.

PMID: 8838582

Probabaly because of this

Neurochem. 2002 Dec;83(5):1188-95.Links
Regulation of taurine transport at the blood-brain barrier by tumor necrosis factor-alpha, taurine and hypertonicity.Kang YS, Ohtsuki S, Takanaga H, Tomi M, Hosoya K, Terasaki T.
College of Pharmacy, Sookmyung Women's University, Seoul, Korea New Industry Creation Hatchery Center, Tohoku University, Aoba, Aramaki, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Japan.

Taurine is the abundant sulfur-containing beta-amino acid in brain where it exerts a neuroprotective effect. Although it is known that the blood-brain barrier (BBB) mediates taurine transport, the regulation of taurine transport have not been clarified yet. A conditionally immortalized rat brain capillary endothelial cells (TR-BBB13), an in vitro model of the BBB, exhibited [3H]taurine uptake, which was dependent on both Na+ and Cl-, and inhibited by beta-alanine. Taurine transporter (TAUT) mRNA was detected in TR-BBB13 cells, and TAUT protein was also expressed at 70 kDa. TR-BBB13 cells exposed to 20 ng/mL TNF-alpha and under hypertonic conditions showed a 1.7-fold and 3.2-fold increase in [3H]taurine uptake, respectively. In contrast, lipopolysaccharide and diethyl maleate did not significantly affect taurine uptake. The taurine uptake was reduced by pre-treatment with excess taurine (50 mm). The mRNA level of the TAUT in TNF-alpha and following hypertonic treatment was greater than that in control cells, whereas that under excess taurine conditions was lower than in controls. Therefore, taurine transport activity at the BBB appears to be regulated at the transcriptional level by cell damage, osmolality and taurine in the brain.

PMID: 12437590

Damn! That's not good. Makes my BA, Taurine and Creatine pre-workout mix look a bit less appealing. I'll see if there are anymore recent studies which back this or otherwise.

Good info Liorrh.

Edited by sentinel, 04 December 2007 - 09:33 AM.

J Neurosci Res. 1996 Jan 1;43(1):112-9.Links
Dietary beta-alanine results in taurine depletion and cerebellar damage in adult cats.Lu P, Xu W, Sturman JA.
Department of Developmental Biochemistry, New York State Office of Mental Retardation and Developmental Disabilities, Staten Island, USA.

We have used the taurine analogue, beta-alanine, to perturb the taurine concentrations in taurine-supplemented and taurine-deprived adult cats. By using 5% beta-alanine in the drinking water for 20 weeks, both groups of cats had greatly reduced brain taurine concentrations. Taurine-supplemented cat brain accumulated relatively small amounts of beta-alanine whereas taurine-deprived cats accumulated large amounts of beta-alanine. The cerebellum of cats treated with beta-alanine had a number of pathological changes compared with similar cats drinking water alone. The changes were more severe in the taurine-deprived cats, and included reduced numbers of granule and Purkinje cells, with many of those remaining appearing pyknotic and dying. Long swollen fibers were seen in the white matter, resembling Rosenthal fibers described in some human cerebellar diseases. There was also prominent gliosis. Using antibodies to beta-alanine and taurine, beta-alanine was localized in Purkinje cell soma and dendrites, in Golgi II cells, and in some granule cells, especially in taurine-deprived cats treated with beta-alanine. Taurine appears to have been virtually eliminated from Purkinje and granule cells, and concentrated in Golgi II cells and glia. We conclude that beta-alanine is responsible for these neurotoxic pathological changes.

PMID: 8838582

Hmmm....well, that's an old study that has not been replicated in humans. Humans and other animals may react very differently when it comes to beta-alanine and carnosine. Taurine issue has been examined a couple of times in humans and found that BA supplementeation does not deplete taurine levels. Quote from study below: "Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine."

Amino Acids. 2006 May;30(3):279-89. Epub 2006 Mar 24
The absorption of orally supplied beta-alanine and its effect on muscle carnosine synthesis in human vastus lateralis.
Beta-alanine in blood-plasma when administered as A) histidine dipeptides (equivalent to 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt of beta-alanine) in chicken broth, or B) 10, C) 20 and D) 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt beta-alanine (CarnoSyn, NAI, USA), peaked at 428 +/- SE 66, 47 +/- 13, 374 +/- 68 and 833 +/- 43 microM. Concentrations regained baseline at 2 h. Carnosine was not detected in plasma with A) although traces of this and anserine were found in urine. Loss of beta-alanine in urine with B) to D) was <5%. Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine. Pharmacodynamics were further investigated with 3 x B) per day given for 15 d. Dietary supplementation with I) 3.2 and II) 6.4 g . d(-1) beta-alanine (as multiple doses of 400 or 800 mg) or III) L-carnosine (isomolar to II) for 4 w resulted in significant increases in muscle carnosine estimated at 42.1, 64.2 and 65.8%.

so persumably beta-alamine can be stacked alongside creatine for strength+ endurance. I've heard you need some sort of time-release version?

Yes indeed - biotest makes a very high quality time released BA. It's pretty amazing stuff IMO.

There is a great deal of research out now using beta-alanine with humans during fatigue trials.

When reviewing the benefits (or lack of benefits) in clinical trials it is important to look at both the subject number within a study (n) and the number of trials (N).

Hmmm....well, that's an old study that has not been replicated in humans. Humans and other animals may react very differently when it comes to beta-alanine and carnosine.

PROVE IT(in the context of the tranporter and AA kinetics).

Taurine issue has been examined a couple of times in humans and found that BA supplementeation does not deplete taurine levels. Quote from study below: "Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine."

Amino Acids. 2006 May;30(3):279-89. Epub 2006 Mar 24
The absorption of orally supplied beta-alanine and its effect on muscle carnosine synthesis in human vastus lateralis.
Beta-alanine in blood-plasma when administered as A) histidine dipeptides (equivalent to 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt of beta-alanine) in chicken broth, or B) 10, C) 20 and D) 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt beta-alanine (CarnoSyn, NAI, USA), peaked at 428 +/- SE 66, 47 +/- 13, 374 +/- 68 and 833 +/- 43 microM. Concentrations regained baseline at 2 h. Carnosine was not detected in plasma with A) although traces of this and anserine were found in urine. Loss of beta-alanine in urine with B) to D) was <5%. Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine. Pharmacodynamics were further investigated with 3 x B) per day given for 15 d. Dietary supplementation with I) 3.2 and II) 6.4 g . d(-1) beta-alanine (as multiple doses of 400 or 800 mg) or III) L-carnosine (isomolar to II) for 4 w resulted in significant increases in muscle carnosine estimated at 42.1, 64.2 and 65.8%.

who cares about plasma taurine? we are talking about brain taurine. BA blocks the BBB transporter. your study actually adds to the others - palsma is elevated beacuse transporters are blocked.

Hmmm....well, that's an old study that has not been replicated in humans. Humans and other animals may react very differently when it comes to beta-alanine and carnosine.

PROVE IT(in the context of the tranporter and AA kinetics).

I would think the burden would be on you to prove that animals and humans would respond the same in this context, no? I am just pointing out that humans may very well react very differently, and that we should be careful about jumping to conclusions on the basis of animal studies like this, especially when carnosine/ba supplementation has been shown to be a very effective performance enhancer.

Taurine issue has been examined a couple of times in humans and found that BA supplementeation does not deplete taurine levels. Quote from study below: "Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine."

Amino Acids. 2006 May;30(3):279-89. Epub 2006 Mar 24
The absorption of orally supplied beta-alanine and its effect on muscle carnosine synthesis in human vastus lateralis.
Beta-alanine in blood-plasma when administered as A) histidine dipeptides (equivalent to 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt of beta-alanine) in chicken broth, or B) 10, C) 20 and D) 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt beta-alanine (CarnoSyn, NAI, USA), peaked at 428 +/- SE 66, 47 +/- 13, 374 +/- 68 and 833 +/- 43 microM. Concentrations regained baseline at 2 h. Carnosine was not detected in plasma with A) although traces of this and anserine were found in urine. Loss of beta-alanine in urine with B) to D) was <5%. Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine. Pharmacodynamics were further investigated with 3 x B) per day given for 15 d. Dietary supplementation with I) 3.2 and II) 6.4 g . d(-1) beta-alanine (as multiple doses of 400 or 800 mg) or III) L-carnosine (isomolar to II) for 4 w resulted in significant increases in muscle carnosine estimated at 42.1, 64.2 and 65.8%

who cares about plasma taurine? we are talking about brain taurine. BA blocks the BBB transporter. your study actually adds to the others - palsma is elevated beacuse transporters are blocked.

Good point.

AFAIK, BBB AA transporters are identical in mamals(the shape of teh AA dictates competition). nevertheless

in the supplement realm the burden of safety lies on those wanting to take the supplement. it vey well may be unsafe, with an issue not yet resolved/researched. so why take it until its researched beyond doubt you are nto harming yourself? perfomrance research got NOTHING to do with the disscussion of brain safety.


Confirmation bias in the house.

Hmmm....well, that's an old study that has not been replicated in humans. Humans and other animals may react very differently when it comes to beta-alanine and carnosine.

PROVE IT(in the context of the tranporter and AA kinetics).

I would think the burden would be on you to prove that animals and humans would respond the same in this context, no? I am just pointing out that humans may very well react very differently, and that we should be careful about jumping to conclusions on the basis of animal studies like this, especially when carnosine/ba supplementation has been shown to be a very effective performance enhancer.

Taurine issue has been examined a couple of times in humans and found that BA supplementeation does not deplete taurine levels. Quote from study below: "Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine."

Amino Acids. 2006 May;30(3):279-89. Epub 2006 Mar 24
The absorption of orally supplied beta-alanine and its effect on muscle carnosine synthesis in human vastus lateralis.
Beta-alanine in blood-plasma when administered as A) histidine dipeptides (equivalent to 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt of beta-alanine) in chicken broth, or B) 10, C) 20 and D) 40 mg . kg(-1) bwt beta-alanine (CarnoSyn, NAI, USA), peaked at 428 +/- SE 66, 47 +/- 13, 374 +/- 68 and 833 +/- 43 microM. Concentrations regained baseline at 2 h. Carnosine was not detected in plasma with A) although traces of this and anserine were found in urine. Loss of beta-alanine in urine with B) to D) was <5%. Plasma taurine was increased by beta-alanine ingestion but this did not result in any increased loss via urine. Pharmacodynamics were further investigated with 3 x B) per day given for 15 d. Dietary supplementation with I) 3.2 and II) 6.4 g . d(-1) beta-alanine (as multiple doses of 400 or 800 mg) or III) L-carnosine (isomolar to II) for 4 w resulted in significant increases in muscle carnosine estimated at 42.1, 64.2 and 65.8%

who cares about plasma taurine? we are talking about brain taurine. BA blocks the BBB transporter. your study actually adds to the others - palsma is elevated beacuse transporters are blocked.

Good point.

AFAIK, BBB AA transporters are identical in mamals(the shape of teh AA dictates competition). nevertheless

in the supplement realm the burden of safety lies on those wanting to take the supplement. it vey well may be unsafe, with an issue not yet resolved/researched. so why take it until its researched beyond doubt you are nto harming yourself? perfomrance research got NOTHING to do with the disscussion of brain safety.


Confirmation bias in the house.

Burden of proof generally yes - but I was talking about the context of generalizing from animal to human. Your point about BBB AA transporters being identical in mammals is interesting, didn't know that.

No doubt I am biased about BA supplementation - I plead guilty on that one. From a performance perspective it's damn good - but perhaps I should hold off on it until the research on safety is clearer.

The potential of carnosine supplements to deplete taurine and enhance copper absorption have pushed me to suspend its use until we get some human studies showing non-athletic benefits.

Carnosine and anserine enhance copper uptake.

J Nutr Sci Vitaminol (Tokyo). 2008 Feb;54(1):61-5.
Lipid Peroxidation Potential and Antioxidants in the Heart Tissue of beta-Alanine- or Taurine-Treated Old Rats.
Parildar H, Dogru-Abbasoglu S, Mehmetçik G, Ozdemirler G, Koçak-Toker N, Uysal M.
Department of Biochemistry, Istanbul Medical Faculty, Istanbul University.

The aim of this study was to investigate the effect of the changes of taurine levels in the hearts of old rats on endogenous malondialdehyde (MDA) and diene conjugate (DC) levels and ascorbic acid (AA)- and NADPH-induced lipid peroxidation as well as non-enzymatic (glutathione, vitamin E and vitamin C) and enzymatic antioxidants (superoxide dismutase, glutathione peroxidase and glutathione transferase). Two groups of old (22 mo) rats were treated with beta-alanine (3%, w/v; in drinking water), a taurine depleting agent, or taurine (2% w/v; in drinking water) for 6 wk. Significant decreases were observed in taurine contents of hearts in old rats as compared to young (5 mo) rats. We found that MDA and DC levels and AA- and NADPH-induced lipid peroxidation increased, but non-enzymatic and enzymatic antioxidants did not alter in heart homogenates of aged rats. beta-Alanine administration resulted in significant decreases in heart taurine levels of old rats. This treatment did not cause further increases in MDA or DC levels or changes in antioxidants. However, AA- and NADPH-induced lipid peroxidation was higher than that of old rats. Taurine treatment caused significant increases in heart taurine levels of old rats. This treatment was found to decrease endogenous MDA and DC levels without affecting the antioxidant system in the heart homogenates of aged rats. AA- and NADPH-induced lipid peroxidation was also reduced in old rats when given taurine, although not statistically significantly. Our results indicate that the changes in heart taurine levels may influence the susceptibility of heart tissue to lipid peroxidation in aged rats and that taurine supplementation has protective effects on age-dependent oxidative stress in heart tissue.

PMID: 18388409

http://www.geocities.../carnosine.html

However, histidine and carnosine are powerful carriers of copper. They transport copper from the intestinal milieu into the portal blood and from there to organs and tissues in the body. And don't think you can displace copper with zinc once the copper is on histidine - you cannot. The equilibrium constantt for copper II chelated to histidine is 18.3; for zinc it is 6.7 to 12.9, depending on chelate structure (Ref. Chaberek and Martell, Organic Sequestering Agents, John Wiley & Sons, p.549). Because these are exponential relationships, the real difference in the constants is 10 tothe 5th up to 10 to the 11th. Only glutathione, cysteine and thionein can intercept this carnosine-copper transport, but that's one of the big problems in autism, isn't it? These sulfur players have gone AWOL, and copper is excessive at the expense of zinc. Dr. Bill Walsh has made excellent presentations on this. You might think that carnosine plus zinc will act to put zinc in and take copper out. With these equilibrium constants and with the natural copper content of food, that's very unlikely. You need a million or more zinc atoms for each copper atom to be competitive in this game!

Histidine/carnosine-copper wisdom has graduated into medical textbooks. We're not talking about research papers; we're talking what you should and shouldn't do per medical texts. Copper homeostasis with histidine and histidine-albumin complexes are well discussed by David Danks, Chapter 58 of Stanbury et al, The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease, 5th Ed, p.1252-1254. For carnosine, the publicity is a bit worse. Carnosine is a threat to worsened Wilson's disease because it and its sister anserine are such good importers of copper to body tissues. Ref: Scriver CR and TLPerry, Chapt 26 in Scriver et al eds, The Metabolic Basis of Inherited Disease6th ed McGraw-Hill (1989) 765.

Now, let's go to the really bad guy here, beta-alanine. To be concise: beta-alanine blocks renal conservation of taurine and causeshypertaurinuria - loss of taurine in the urine. This, in turrn, causes urinary loss of magnesium, which worsens sulfotransferase activity as well as lots ofother necessary enzymatic processes. If you give carnosine, you lose taurine and magnesium. There are lots of references, but you can start with Dr.Charles Scriver's work referenced above, because all of this biochemistry (carnosine, beta-alanine, taurine, etc.) is closely related.

The potential of carnosine supplements to deplete taurine and enhance copper absorption have pushed me to suspend its use until we get some human studies showing non-athletic benefits.

Oh man, that sucks. Taurine and magnesium could be supplemented, but the copper accumulation is worrisome. Crap. I have considered carnosine a key supplement for some time. It's been around for a long time; has anyone reported problems with it?

shite bullets.... so it looks like I have to dump the beta-alanine I just got a few days ago.

Benfotiamine then?

Benfotiamine has actually been shown to be effective in human trials (imagine that!) and is half the price for a month's supply. Pyridoxamine is no joke either.

Edited by FunkOdyssey, 12 May 2008 - 12:43 PM.

For what it's worth, I have had blood tests done after using L-Carnosine at 500 mg a day most days for the past few years along with other supplements like the full strength LEF mix which contains both Zinc and Copper. I had my blood tests taken after like 8-9 days without taking any supplements though...

Results:
Taurine 119 (reference interval 50-100 micro mol/L) - FWIW, I had a can of sardines which i believe contain large amounts of Taurine like once a day for probably the 5 days before the test. I didn't eat anything on the morning of the blood tests.

Zinc 17 (reference interval 10-18 micro mol/L)
Copper 13.9 (reference interval 12-22 micro mol/L)

Ceruloplasmin 0.25 (reference interval 0.17-0.31 g/L)

The only abnormal levels, other than the Taurine, I received on the blood tests was low blood cortisol and high blood Pyridoxal-L-Phosphate (activated form of Vitamin B6).

So it appears my Copper levels weren't elevated nor were my Taurine levels lowered or anything though this was 8-9 days since I last took a Carnosine supplement.

Also Carnosine is found in almost supplement-strength amounts in meat and chicken products (365 mg/100 g in beef and 400 mg/100 g in lamb for example). Not that meat is considered particularly healthy but I thought that has been shown to be because of its Animal Saturated Fat and Iron contents...

Benfotiamine has actually been shown to be effective in human trials (imagine that!) and is half the price for a month's supply. Pyridoxamine is no joke either.

Anyone know if Jarrow's pyridoxamine is clean? AOR says that

Pyridoxamine supplements previously released by other companies have been found to contain 5-15% of an unknown contaminant, revealed on HPLC but not standard semi qualitative assays endorsed by the United States Pharmacopoeia (USP).

I want to read this info further but that first study has me wondering about something. I'm pretty sure that taurine is essential for cats. It is non-essential for humans (and dogs). (You don't feed your cat dog food but you can give your dog cat food b/c cats need taurine and dogs don't.)

So that first study seems strange but I want to read the rest of the post more thoroughly before commenting further.

I think taurine and beta-alanine don't work together. The only reference I've found of this is The Healing Nutrients Within by Braverman & Pfeiffer. It says that taurine helps create this hormone in the parathyroid gland glutataurine (glutamic acid-taurine). I searched the net for more info on this hormone and couldn't find any references (months ago); but, would be interested in any that exist.

I had been taking high doses of taurine and now suspect that this was perhaps causing a problem for me - namely a severe pantothenic acid def. (My saliva panel showed low cortisol levels.) IBraverman's book says that glutataurine antagonizes cortisone and thyroxine. Increased taurine levels have been found in hypothyroid patients. Glutataurine has vitamin A-like effects.

I'm now taking beta-alanine b/c it is used by the body to make pantothenic acid. PA helps the adrenals make cortisol.

I'm not taking any taurine now. I am not sure if small amounts would be OK or not. I think that vitamins can have a reverse effect if you take too high a dose. I think AAs may be similar in that if you take too much you could, at least create an imbalance of other AAs. The right dose maybe the issue I don't know.

Taurine has been found to increase the effects of insulin. Taurine can inhibit the release of adrenalin (Braverman)

The book also says taurine supps can stimulate prolactin levels and insulin release. It seems to inhibit the effect of morphine and potentiate the effects of opiate antagonists.

I've read that carnosine doesn't seem to get past the GI tract somehow. Always thought that taking carnosine isn't the most effective way to increase muscle carnosine levels.

I had read that taurine seems to work well with zinc. I think where there is a zinc def taurine cab somehow help. There may be some other nutrients assoc with taurine (either beneficial or otherwise) that I'm not recalling now.

I'm not sure if you (kenj) might consider histidine (or beta alanine). I mention histidine b/c it initially raises histamine but over time is supposed to lower it.

so persumably beta-alamine can be stacked alongside creatine for strength+ endurance. I've heard you need some sort of time-release version?

i use a product called intrabolic that has BA + a highly hydrolyzed whey + leucine... youre supposed to sip it during workouts, but i pound it down right before because its SO disgusting tasting... but it def has increased my strength (slightly), endurance (majorly) and recovery time (moderately).

Anyone know if Jarrow's pyridoxamine is clean? AOR says that

i trust jarrow. they should provide you with a COA if you call them

Edited by ajnast4r, 12 May 2008 - 11:36 PM.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

The potential of carnosine supplements to deplete taurine and enhance copper absorption have pushed me to suspend its use until we get some human studies showing non-athletic benefits.

Oh man, that sucks. Taurine and magnesium could be supplemented, but the copper accumulation is worrisome. Crap. I have considered carnosine a key supplement for some time. It's been around for a long time; has anyone reported problems with it?

This is really bothering me now. I was all set to debate the merits of Beta-Alanine vs. Carnosine, then I read this thread and the taurine depletion issue is very very worrisome as is the copper accumulation.... grrrrrrrrr, its NAC all over again. Good supplement with potentially really bad side effects grrr grrr grrr

what about say taking Beta-Alanine and or Carnosine during the day and then Taurine at night. The Beta-Alanine/Carnosine would be hopefully tucked away in cells and blood levels would be low thus allowing Taurine to penetrate the BBB. Taurine is a relaxing amino in higher doses so taking it at night would be ideal. Any thoughts?

As far as copper accumulation perhaps extra Zinc could remedy that problem (and maybe create more problems?)

Edited by edward, 13 May 2008 - 02:49 AM.