I want you to do a test for me.

Get a flashlight.
Stand next to a mirror and turn all other lights off.
Shine the flashlight towards your eyes from the side, not directly.
Your pupil should become small.

Over the next 90 seconds, does your pupil remain small, without any variation? Or does it fluctuate, unable to stay small?

This is very important-- I think that I may have discovered what is causing piracetam to work so inconsistently.

Please post your results. 1) Does piracetam "work" for you? (you will know if it does, over a few weeks and taken consistently with a choline source) 2) What were the results of this short pupil reflex test? Did your pupils fluctuate or not?

Thank you.

Here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkftY6BZS0

People with knowledge of the subject may see what I'm getting at, but I'll wait until a few people try this before going into depth and citing studies I've found, etc.

I can't do the eye test because I'm at work.

I'm impatient as well....can you tell us about the possible connection?

1) Piracetam works for me

2) My pupils did not seem to fluctuate. If there was any fluctuation, however small, it was when I needed to blink....

I believe I would pass the following pupil examination http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2XzBaOOX8g...feature=related

Wow, I just found out that my pupils fluctuate a lot when performing this test! I hope there is not anything seriously wrong with me! Piracetam seems to have sporadic effects with me. Some days my clarity of thought is really good and on other days I have brain fog. I have taken Piracetam for over 7 months nonstop with Alpha-GPC and other choline sources.

What causes the pupils to fluctuate so much?

This post has been edited by tritium: Nov 10 2009, 05:06 AM

Could this also be related to having trouble sleeping at night?

Should I see a doctor to get my eyes checked???

Piracetam works consistently for me and my eyes fluctuate in size

With healthy adre­nals, and particularly healthy levels of the hormone "aldosterone," your pupils will cons­trict, and will stay small the entire time you shine the light from the side. In adre­nal insufficiency, the pupil will get small, but within 30 seconds, it will soon enlarge again or obviously flut­ter in it’s attempt to stay cons­tric­ted. Why does this occur? Because adre­nal insuf­fi­ciency can also result in low aldos­te­rone, which cau­ses a lack of pro­per amounts of sodium and an abun­dance of potas­sium. This imba­lance cau­ses the sphinc­ter musc­les of your eye to be weak and to dilate in res­ponse to light.

So, here's the connection.


And:



So, when I discovered that aldosterone insufficiency was easy to test with the pupil reflex test, and that aldosterone was also indicated in piracetam's mechanism of action, it was not hard to infer that the reason Piracetam can work wonderfully for a few months and then seem to have negative effects in the same person may be directly connected to the function of that person's adrenals, and specifically, their levels of aldosterone.

I believe that Piracetam places an extra strain on the adrenals, and this explains the paradoxical brain fog and drowsiness that so many users report: and the mystery of its unreliability/inconsistency. When a person's adrenals are already strained, be it from lack of sleep and too much stress, or something more sinister, like hypothyroid or addison's disease, the use of a -racetam places extra stress on levels of aldosterone and corticosterone, and when these hormones are already in shortage, usage only exacerbates negative symptoms of aldosterone deficiency.

So far, a few of the treatments I am exploring include, but are not limited to:
-L-Tyrosine
-Vitamin C
-Iodine
-Adrenal Cortex (Isocort or Hydrocortisone)
-Dessicated Thyroid
-Ashwagandha, Rhodiola Rosea, and/or Panax Ginseng
-Ferritin (Iron), B6/B12
-Pregnenolone
-Tribulus Terrestrius
-Vinpocetine and Ginko Biloba (vasodilation)
-Phosphatidyl Serine
-DHEA
-Maca Root
-Borage Oil/Cod Liver Oil

These are all aimed at improving the function of the thyroid/HPA Axis. I believe that when the HPA axis is restored to healthy functioning, piracetam will have a consistent positive effect in the user.

On November 24th I'm seeing an endocrinologist to have a full panel of tests. Of course, by then I hope to have restored my adrenals as much as possible by supplementation, healthy stress reduction and sleep management, diet and exercise, but the results will still be valuable.

For now, I want everyone who is interested in putting this piracetam mystery to rest to do this very simple test. It will tell you a lot about your body and it will help the greater community.

Thank you.

Nice work acantelopepope! It seemed that it had something to do with adrenals, but I couldn't pinpoint exactly what. I know another member suggested taking pregnenolone if Piracetam didnt' work for you. Pregnenolone is eventually turned into Aldosterone down the line.

Through my experience I had piracetam work for me after I started taking Phosphatidylserine to blunt cortisol. Excess cortisol makes all of your hormones less available at normal levels. I started taking Phosphatidylserine because I had excess cortisol through the stress of chelating mercury, and dealing with yeast. I can reasonably confirm that Phosphatidylserine has lowered my cortisol because I need less, sometimes no thyroid medication. I know I need thyroid when I start to get cold, I don't get cold very often now, suggestion thyroid hormone is more available to my body. Also, a month or so after Phosphatidylserine, I started gaining muscle with no excersie or diet changes. Excess cortisol can increase muscle breakdown, and slows muscle growth (simplified). Phosphatidylserine has been great for me in and of itself, but now Piracetam has nice effects for me as well.

This post has been edited by LIB: Nov 10 2009, 10:43 AM

In my experience Piracetam doesn't work for me (I tried dosages from 600mg-10g and consistent use of 3,6 or 4,8g for months with 300mg-900g A-GPC). I sort of felt a small effect on motivation in the first few days, but I suspect this was merely placebo from the many success stories I have heard here. My pupils didn't seem to constrict much in the dark (20-35% smaller than normal at most), but I did see some obvious fluctuations right away. At the moment I'm taking a break from Piracetam since it didn't work, but I have ordered Pregnenolone and plan to try Piracetam again once it arrives.

So far, the results:

Total who have tried the pupil test (including myself): 5
No fluctuations and positive responders: 1
Fluctuations and positive responders: 1
Fluctuations and negative responders: 3

Correlation between pupil fluctuation and piracetam response so far: 4/5 = 80%

Fludrocortisone (Florinef) looks like a great corticosterone replacement, in theory. Looking at the above studies, it would seem that an individual should experience immediate relief of aldosterone deficiency upon use, thus facilitating the use of piracetam as well. Some pet product websites sell samples. Guinea pig, anyone?

Where can these samples be found? I'll be willing to try almost anything.

It goes without saying that you alone suffer any negative consequences of using Florinef. If you are suicidal, call 9-1-1, contact a psychiatrist, yadahyadahyadah.

Now, that being said, Florinef seems pretty darn safe.

It can be ordered here without a prescription, for your "pet": http://www.petpharm.org/index-us.htm

Looks like you have to fill out a waiver form too.

Here's the FDA's information on it.


Generic Name: fludrocortisone acetate
Dosage Form: Tablets
Description

Florinef Acetate (Fludrocortisone Acetate Tablets USP) contains fludrocortisone acetate, a synthetic adrenocortical steroid possessing very potent mineralocorticoid properties and high glucocorticoid activity; it is used only for its mineralocorticoid effects. The chemical name for fludrocortisone acetate is 9-fluoro- 11ß,17,21-trihydroxypregn-4-ene-3,20-dione 21-acetate; its graphic formula is:

Florinef Acetate is available for oral administration as scored tablets providing 0.1 mg fludrocortisone acetate per tablet. Inactive ingredients: calcium phosphate, corn starch, lactose, magnesium stearate, sodium benzoate, and talc.
Clinical Pharmacology

Corticosteroids are thought to act, at least in part, by controlling the rate of synthesis of proteins. Although there are a number of instances in which the synthesis of specific proteins is known to be induced by corticosteroids, the links between the initial actions of the hormones and the final metabolic effects have not been completely elucidated.

The physiologic action of fludrocortisone acetate is similar to that of hydrocortisone. However, the effects of fludrocortisone acetate, particularly on electrolyte balance, but also on carbohydrate metabolism, are considerably heightened and prolonged. Mineralocorticoids act on the distal tubules of the kidney to enhance the reabsorption of sodium ions from the tubular fluid into the plasma; they increase the urinary excretion of both potassium and hydrogen ions. The consequence of these three primary effects together with similar actions on cation transport in other tissues appear to account for the entire spectrum of physiological activities that are characteristic of mineralocorticoids. In small oral doses, fludrocortisone acetate produces marked sodium retention and increased urinary potassium excretion. It also causes a rise in blood pressure, apparently because of these effects on electrolyte levels.

In larger doses, fludrocortisone acetate inhibits endogenous adrenal cortical secretion, thymic activity, and pituitary corticotropin excretion; promotes the deposition of liver glycogen; and, unless protein intake is adequate, induces negative nitrogen balance.

The approximate plasma half-life of fludrocortisone (fluorohydrocortisone) is 3.5 hours or more and the biological half-life is 18 to 36 hours.
Indications and Usage

Florinef Acetate is indicated as partial replacement therapy for primary and secondary adrenocortical insufficiency in Addison’s disease and for the treatment of salt-losing adrenogenital syndrome.

This might also be worth trying:

Progesterone 2.5% Cream (KAL brand) -- OTC.

Here's the theory:



I will look a little bit more into this before using it, because it's used for menopausal women, but someone has recommended to apply it in small dabs under the arm pits for relief from adrenal insufficiency-- and most relevantly here, for improvement of aldosterone levels.

It looks promising because it can be bought at places like Whole Foods without a prescription, and it's relatively cheap.

That website lists Florinef as a prescription medication, thus implying that you need a prescription to order. I wouldn't mind spending $45 if I knew for sure that it works. I think it would be wise to use samples first if available. Where can I fine the free samples that you were talking about earlier?

Interesting theory, but I'm inclined to believe that the excitotoxic effects associated with prolonged use of piracetam is a more likely explanation for complaints of brain fog. If symptoms of brain fog arose---or worsened after first time use---it's possible that your NMDA receptors are already hyperactive, and in need of an inhibitory agent. Further, in the absence of blood lab results that positively indicate a deficiency of corticosteroids or DHEA, it would be premature to assume the presence of adrenal fatigue.

While adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition, I think the incidence is less common than proponents of this disorder would make you believe. Personally, I'm wary of any diagnosis that attempts to attribute several symptoms affecting multiple systems to a single condition. Especially when the condition is not widely accepted by practitioners.

Interesting theory, but I'm inclined to believe that the excitotoxic effects associated with prolonged use of piracetam is a more likely explanation for complaints of brain fog. If symptoms of brain fog arose---or worsened after first time use---it's possible that your NMDA receptors are already hyperactive, and in need of an inhibitory agent. Further, in the absence of blood lab results that positively indicate a deficiency of corticosteroids or DHEA, it would be premature to assume the presence of adrenal fatigue.

While adrenal fatigue is probably a real condition, I think the incidence is less common than proponents of this disorder would make you believe. Personally, I'm wary of any diagnosis that attempts to attribute several symptoms affecting multiple systems to a single condition. Especially when the condition is not widely accepted by practitioners.

Interesting post...I have been lurking on the boards for a couple weeks now, and currently take piracetam. I have had mixed results. I have tried a range of doses, from approximately 1/2 gram to 5 grams, along with fish oil and choline (eggs as per Isochroma and now lecithin), and I find it hard to predict what will happen from any given dosage. I have experienced what I would consider a significant increase in verbosity and enthusiasm for mental activity at some times, nothing at others, and sleepiness on occasion. Also, over the last week I have felt the desire to sleep more and very little of the mind-sharpening effects.
Today I woke up and had a lot of trouble motivating myself to do much of anything. It was my day off, so I wanted to go on a bike ride, and I even planned the route, but then as I was brewing some mate to try to break through my tiredness (is this what others call the "brain fog"?) I came across this post. Well, I never went on that bike ride. If there is a way to ensure a positive response regularly from piracetam, I'm all over it.
First, the eye test. Only flashlight-type device was an LED headlamp with low battery, which might have been insufficient, but I did notice changes in pupil size while not moving the light or changing focus, so I'll say the test ran positive for possible aldosterone deficiency.
Second, the recommended supplements from Cpope. I had some maca root lying around which I never take, so I had 1 gram. I felt slightly better as I rode to the store, where I picked up some dessicated thyroid (delicious). So now I am all set for some self-experimentation. I realize, though, as I think about the possibility for error here, that I may not be able to avoid some uncertainty. I seem to get the best results (if any) from 2-5 grams piracetam about every three hours. I will try to establish my low threshold for activity in this experiment, as well as note the frequency of response or lack thereof to these doses. I wonder, though...since I do not know what my aldosterone levels are now, how tough will it be to say if supplementing has "corrected" this "problem". But if the shoe fits, wear it, I suppose. I will post, possibly in a new thread, news of my guinea pigging.
Oh, and hello everyone. Thank you, all of you, this forum is my go-to and starting point for reasonable discussion of nootropics, and I can tell that a lot of the people here really care about the truth and debunking snake-oil salesmen.

I appreciate your response, Rol. However, I disagree with a few things: you say that excitotoxcicity is a more likely explanation for the sporadic negative effects of piracetam. I've seen this theory thrown around, and as far as I know there are no studies to suggest piracetam has lead to excitotoxic effects.

As I cited above, however, there are studies clearly showing that without sufficient aldosterone/corticosterone, piracetam not only loses its effects, but also was shown to have negative effects (study available upon request).

Further, I never suggested adrenal fatigue was at the root of this (though it may very well be, depending on how you interpret that term). Adrenal insufficiency, specifically of aldosterone levels, is really all that can be asserted with decent certainty by results of the pupil-reflex test.

I don't advocate someone taking a cocktail of supplements without understanding their interactions with one another and other medications, or possible side effects. I don't advocate someone forgoing medical treatment because they think they can treat themselves.

Now. Here are some developments:

-Nix the borage oil. It turns out, GLA (gammalinolenicacid) actually reduces aldosterone, which is why it's good for lowering blood pressure
-Vitamin B6 also has similar effects in high doses
-Iodized Sea Salt, taken at 1/2tsp once to twice daily is said to be enough to balance the sodium levels of those with aldosterone deficiency. It's said to take 1-4 weeks of daily consumption. If that does not work, it's recommended to move to Florinef (Fludrocortisone).
-I bought progesterone cream last night. I will dab a pea sized amount under my arm pits 2x a day for 5 days, then take 2 days off, and repeat.

Here are some resources:

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/commu...opic.php?t=8562

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/aldosterone/

http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal24/adrenal24.html

http://enotes.tripod.com/hypoaldosteronism.htm

http://www.endfatigue.com/treatment_option...ne_program.html

Good luck, and for all the lurkers, please post your results. Let's share knowledge and get to the bottom of this.

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