After the William O'rights episode, many Imminst members and leaders were quite keen to develop a cryonics charity fund. There is now almost $1,000 seed money in this fund, thanks to some members who had given to the O'rights charity drive but whose donations were not used. A once a year funding drive could be created in order to build the fund. It has been suggested to use the most value-priced cryonics services in the world - to make the most of limited funds. Right now that would be Kriorus.

What needs to be decided are the guiding principles of the fund. This is a poll to gauge Imminst member/user opinion. This is not a referendum.

Venturist website. The Venturists are mentioned here because they have attempted to raise charity cryonics funds in the past.


Venturist Charity Criteria:

1. A person that was signed with a cryonics organization but lost their life insurance due to medical reasons

2. A person who had done a lot of public advocacy for cryonics and had recorded financial donations to causes that promoted cryonics research or advocacy, but had contracted an illness or died before they were able to set up life insurance and be signed up as a member with a cryonics organization

3. A person who wants to be cryonically preserved, but is unable to acquire life insurance due to documented medical reasons

4. A documented case of poverty where a person would not be able to acquire life insurance, or qualify for public welfare funds in an amount that would enable them to build up the amount needed for pre-payment of suspension over a reasonable amount of time in relation to their age and health

I think the cryonics charity fund should be limited to lifetime members, resources are finite and being a lifetime member means that you are serious about Imminst and life extension. I think a separate Imminst fund seems like an excellent idea, such a fund would likely create more attention for Imminst as well.

Most valuable is the best possible preservation, not just the cheapest, CI and Alcor are obviously currently far more well-established than Kriorus. Since CI is cheaper than Alcor it should be the choice.

Anyone who is a lifetime member at Imminst, gets an life-threatening illness ,and are (for whatever reason) unable to pay for their suspension, should qualify for the fund.

Since the goal of Imminst is to conquer involuntary death it should not only serve as a discussion forum and donate money to science, it should also actively work to prevent death amongst it's members like in the case of Bill O'Rights. Such a fund fits that description perfectly.

That's at least my opinion.

This post has been edited by VictorBjoerk: Feb 2 2010, 02:05 AM

Cases of #4 and especially #3 most seriously merit my interest in contributing. I know this is being proposed as a member benefit but we obviously aren't going to make it something like: don't bother signing up for cryonics, just join imminst and if there's enough money in the fund when you need it, we'll cover you. On the other hand people like James Swayze and Mark McAllister seem like immortalists worthy of a boost considering the unfortunate hands they've been dealt.

I would support something like additional coverage that would pay for ancillary expenses such as transportation, government red tape, etc for those who already had their own funded contract. That would make a lot more sense to me than these other proposals.

Lol, 97 people viewed the poll but only 11 voted. I would like to see a higher percentage of votes.

Maybe you could send a mass PM to let all the members know that they could vote on this poll?

I like the Venturists criteria for suspension. I really think people who want a chance should indeed be able to get this second chance.

1immorta@... posted http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Venturists/message/1124 on Jan 29, 2010, with subject: Less expensive cryonics storage. Parts of the message: If Society of Universal Immortalism or someone personnaly will collect money for some of us who cant pay for himself, we are ready to accept: 10 neuro patients for $3000 each or 10 head only patiens for $5000 each...

Jan 30, 2010, parts of my response: ...can there be a contract with terms to allow a pre-payment of approximately $500 receivable by CryoFreedom to reserve the right on cryopreservation...? ...it will be kindly appreciated if terms from a contract with CryoFreedom can grant immediate membership and reserve a later coverage of neuro suspension which is becoming due from the date of the accomplished payment...

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1immorta@... posted http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Venturists/message/1127 on Jan 31, 2010: In CryoFreedom we think about kind of insurance you pay us monthly to get an instant coverage for cryonics storage in Voronezh (amount of 50$\month...

Feb 1, 2010, parts of my response: ...great to being supported by cryonics storage in Voronezh for 50$\month. Considering the excessively high bank fees for an international money transfer, I feel, some approximated rates for yearly payments would be even better to anyone, but still affordable. Avoiding monthly bank fees, something in the range of 800$\year would be a more economic instalment to the payer yet. That would be $800 at first, same for two following years, and the remainder for the final year to settle the sum of $3000. Since an accrued interest must offset the avoided monthly payments, a remainder of $800 instead of $600 should be preferrable... ...Regarding KrioRus' bank information, it doesn't fit correctly into the international money transfer form from a German bank, because I got one in cyrillic letters and another one which address from the Russian bank I can't comprehend; I don't find out where's the bank's street and...

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When someone is fairly insolvent, cannot purchase a life insurance, and has less than $1000 to spend at once, Immortality Institute should be there to support negotiations with a Russian cryonics provider. See the above parts from my messages I posted at the Venturists discussion group.

I think I still like the lifetime member idea. Caliban says it would probably look to much like a trust or start nearing an insurance agency. I think that if we word it right that we can avoid that. We would expound on the stipulation that this fund isnt a gaurantee to anybody and that its up to the board to decide how money is granted. Would it make members sign up because they think that if they get hit by a bus we'll have them frozen? Well, the wording will state that thats not the case, and if members are joining for that reason, then I dont think they would have any more doubts once the next person was granted money, and didnt receive the whole amount. If we give John Doe $2,000 toward his freezing and he cant raise the rest, then everybody from then on out will know exactly what this fund is. Offering it to just lifetime members, it seems, would help add substance to imminst, really help add to our feeling of being dynamic and growing. Offering it to anybody who qualifies it seems wouldnt strengthen us, but only add more tasks for us to manage, and in that case it seems like we may as well just leave it up to the Venturists then.

I think we could offer it to lifetimemembers, and to people that meet the qualifications that the Venturists outline. If we do it that way then it seems that rather than a partnership with a possible shared bank account, it would be better to just form a stronger affiliation with them.

If we go with just what the venturists stipulate as conditions for qualification and if they want to partner, then from what I can see at this point, what we might want to do is, have the cryonics back up fundraiser page go to the venturists bank account, have them report that along with our accounting, and then link to their application from our tab bar, and where ever else we might advertise it. In the tab bar, what some of us have been talking about proposing, is to have a "cryonics" tab, that goes to a content management page that lists all the provider links, with links to their applications right next to them. Then also a link to the venturists application on that page as well. We could discuss with the Venturists the possibility of calling it say, "Imminst and Venturist cryonics hardship fund. Apply Here"

I called the Venturists today. They seem supportive of the idea. I was hoping to get them into skype for our next meeting but they dont have it. When they email or call I think Ill direct them to this topic here.

Im not sure if Im catching all your points here, can you rephrase this? With neuro preservations, it seems like we should try to work that in to a possible imminst cryo hardship application so that people can try to get at least that.

As for paying $500 for the right of cryopreservation, Im not sure if this is what you mean, but I think that many providers do that for free by offering this Declaration of Intent type of thing.

Agree with everything.

The point is that Alexei Potapov has posted an offer to the Venturists discussion group. The offer from the Russian organization CryoFreedom stands for a $3000 cryonics neuro storage in Voronezh/Russia. It requires a payment of 50$ per month (for a 30 y.o. person). It's like an insurance, so a fairly older person must pay a higher rate.

Yet, a monthly payment of 50$ per month is impractical for those who live in countries like Germany who are far away from Russia. That's because of the high bank fees for international money transfer which costs probably more than $15 per payment. So the terms disclosed by CryoFreedom should be changed to allow annual payments. In case of the bank information from KrioRus, there are two numbers next to a BIK clearing code. Therefore, they should confirm which of them is the number of the allocation account. That would help to make the transfer easyer. In case the money goes to a different bank account owned by CryoFreedom, they should also confirm which one is the right allocation account number. If they can tell the bank's address, that would be perfect.

In order to get the above mentioned bank information and allowance for yearly payments, it looks as if it would be the best when something can be approached by negotiations with CryoFreedom or KrioRus. Imminst should help to make it happen. So if there would be an Imminst cryo hardship application, it should support at least two choices suitable for cryonics storage in Voronezh/Russia. The 1st choice helps when a receiver of the cryo hardship grant isn't completely unable to pay some money. So the receiver of the hardship grant must pay the $3000 (for neuro storage) in annual installments of something from $600 up to $1000 per year instead of the above mentioned monthly payments ($50 in this case). The 2nd choice is that Imminst pays the $3000 directly from a hardship fund which helps when a receiver of the hardship grant is completely unable to pay some money at all.

A Declaration of Intent is no contract which definately grants the right for cryopreservation. Therefore, a contract for cryo in Russia should contain a clause like this: The client is granted the right to receive cryo preservation when the provider has received the $3000 fee paid off by the client or client's sponsor.

This post has been edited by robomoon: Feb 5 2010, 06:43 PM

So if you pay them $3,000 then when you die, if somebody brings you there, then they will freeze your brain? What if you have made 10 payments of $50.00 and then you get hit by a bus? Will they still freeze you then?



Hmm, those are good ideas and points. If somebody is making their payment, but die before completing it, they sound like they would make a good candidate for help from this potential imminst hardship fund. What though if they were making their payments, then say, missed them for 4 months, you know, that kind of thing. We'll have to ask ourselves if they qualify in situations like that.



I think we will likely end up offering this through any cryo provider across the board if this goes through. Im not sure if we would want to micromanage each different scenerio, but rather try to make it subject from case to case, but be open to all scenerios. We'll probably also want to make clear that we reserve the right to deny any applicant for any reason or something like that. We dont want people to depend on this fund, if its created, in any way. Im not saying your saying that, Im just reiterating that again for this context.



Isnt that already the case? Or are you saying that people might want to reserve certain deals, and that these deals might not be available later?

Part of the way that I imagine the bulk of this going, if this goes through, is that we wouldnt be granting out very many large amounts of the total at all, and less so the more expensive the package that the person wants is. I imagine we would want to align this so we'll be giving out mostly around, $2,000 matchers to people that already have around $2,000 more, and then their people can match us by raising another $2,000, that general price range. If they are going for a $150,000 package, then if they qualify, they may get say, around $2,000, or maybe like, a $20,000 loan to be paid back or something like that.

Yes, CryoFreedom's client pays them $3,000 and if transportation to Moscow/Russia happens, they will freeze the client's brain.

CryoFreedom works like an insurance. So if their client has made 10 payments of $50.00 and then gets hit by a bus, they will still freeze the client then. Thus, CryoFreedom must bear the incomplete payment and the Imminst hardship fund would not be needed to pay the remaining dues.

If a client were making the payments, then say, missed them for 4 months, an agreement for annual payments would help.

A Declaration of Intent is no contract to reserve all the deals necessary for cryo from a specific provider. A contract grants the right for those deals with a clause like this: The client is granted the right to receive cryo preservation when the provider has received the $3000 fee paid off by the client or client's sponsor.

The following clause adds something like an insurance to the contract: if the client has made payments of at least $50.00 and then dies unexpectedly, the provider will still freeze the client then.

The above examples I mentioned are realistic if the initiator of CryoFreedom, Alexei Potapov, would agree that they are OK. So far, I also tried negotiations about cheap cryonics with Danila Medvedev from KrioRus and I hope something can be continued as well.

This post has been edited by robomoon: Feb 6 2010, 04:49 PM

I'd love to see more of our members vote on this as the Venturists have been approached about helping either fund ImmInst's Cryonics Charity Fund or running a joint fund. So far the voting has shown that our members would like us to have our own fund and I can see the benefits of that in many areas. Mind, would you be able to send out a mass PM for this poll?

It will be in the newsletter mass email late tomorrow.

Personally I'd love a Cryonics fund. I kinda roll eyes on the "Lifetime members only" but that's only because I am not one yet, can't afford to donate 100$ when I am still without any job or stable life at all :/
I am not sure who the Venturists are.

I agree with Luna, I think it should be available for other paying members too, maybe some of use are paying members/donating for years.

It's $500 for lifetime membership, unless I missed some change.

The Venturists are an organisation aimed at helping its members avoid autopsy (thus improving their Cryonics chances).

If someone has been paying annual dues for ten years (or donated the equivalent), I guess they have contributed as much financially as a lifetime member.

I think the problem is if a minimum is not set, then people may just join at the moment of impending crisis to get the fund, rather than join ImmInst to support ImmInst here and now - the former being understandable, but not really what we want to incentivise.

Tricky.

This post has been edited by David Styles: Feb 9 2010, 06:39 PM

Well that's worse for me then O_o 500$ is a lot, especially if you don't have a job.

Go ad free, join ImmInst as a Full Member.