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Threats to humanity from the rise of dark ages belief systems


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#1 mattbrowne

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 02:28 PM


I think more and more people resort to Dark Ages belief systems, because they feel overwhelmed by the accelerating technological change. Examples for Dark Ages belief systems are superstition, witchcraft, astrology, creationism, psychic reading, intelligent design and so forth. As the number of followers continues to be on the rise I think there's a real new and serious danger to the future of humanity. Very often science and technology is depicted as evil and dangerous. Religious fanatics already brainwash their kids.

To me the worst case scenarios include book burning, putting "heretics" into prison and eventually burning "witches" at the stake. It happened in the middle ages in Europe and it is happening today in countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran which employs a religious "police force". So far in the West creationists only attempt to modify the curriculum of biology classes. If they succeed their next moves will be far bolder. We have to prevent this from ever happening. How can we reduce the appeal of Dark Ages belief systems?

Has this issue been raised by the Lifeboat Foundation? Any opinions about it?

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#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 03:36 PM

I believe a deep search of the records will show that I and others have raised this topic before but it never seemed to inspire much constructive or in depth analysis here. Instead it always appeared to fall right into the dichotomy with our members that are on the other side of the *fundamentalist - progressive* divide.

I agree that the same trends we favor also have the counter balancing impact of inspiring extreme fundamentalism as they threaten *tradition* and classical social organization and that we are seeing such a conflict arise globally.

#3 Mind

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 05:46 PM

Even though there are elements of "dark age thinking" in the U.S. and some middle eastern fundamentalist countries, there are also other societies where technology, science, and progress are generally celebrated such as Korea and Japan. Also, the dark ages were not "dark" everywhere in the world, just in parts of Europe. Scientific advancement continued in other areas/societies. The key thing today that makes another "dark age" unlikely is communication. It was much easier for the elites to hold onto to power in the dark ages because they controlled the flow of information. Today that is not the case.

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#4 spaceistheplace

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Posted 08 March 2008 - 06:06 PM

superstition, witchcraft, astrology, creationism, psychic reading, intelligent design and so forth.


You cannot just wish these things away. All you can do is incorporate the best aspects and leave the rest behind.

Religious fanatics already brainwash their kids.

If you want your children to compete in the world, you give them an education, to be healthy, a sound diet, or spiritual, the teachings of Christ. You cannot blame these parents for doing what they honestly think is best for their children.

A scientific education without the sacred, or "religious", is emotionless and hollow. And a religion without science can rapidly become dogmatic and close minded.

#5 mattbrowne

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Posted 05 April 2008 - 04:38 PM

You cannot just wish these things away. All you can do is incorporate the best aspects and leave the rest behind.

Religious fanatics already brainwash their kids.

If you want your children to compete in the world, you give them an education, to be healthy, a sound diet, or spiritual, the teachings of Christ. You cannot blame these parents for doing what they honestly think is best for their children.

A scientific education without the sacred, or "religious", is emotionless and hollow. And a religion without science can rapidly become dogmatic and close minded.


Yes, superstition and the like seem to be part of the human psyche. I agree, besides science education children also needs spiritual teachings. There are enlightened versions of Jesus's teachings for example. If I can't blame the parents teaching creationism, I can certainly blame legislators if they mess with biology curriculums, because then it gets dangerous. See the view of the European Parlament below. Creationism is a threat to human survival.

Trying to make my point here let me say this: "To me creationists driving cars is a contradiction."

Why?

Creationists follow a Dark Ages belief system which includes above all a blatant disrespect for scientific method. Most of them drive cars and the irony is that the car would never have been in the 19th century without 300 years of enlightenment that preceded this invention (the first Otto gasoline engine was built in Mannheim, Germany by Karl Benz in 1885).

Creationism is more dangerous than astrology. As long as horoscopes contain positive statements, the placebo effect makes the lives of people easier.

Enlightened Christians can believe in God and follow Jesus's teachings, while at the same time knowing the Earth is about 4.6 billion years old and evolution is no contradiction when properly interpreting the Bible or other sacred writings. The "seven days" in Genesis have a symbolic or metaphorical meaning. Ever heard of the "eleventh hour"? The eleventh hour is an expression referring to the last moments before a deadline or the imminence of a decisive or "final" moment. In a situation like this, nobody would check his or her wristwatch and expect to see it's eleven o'clock. Well, a few creationists might.

All sacred writings are full of allegories, symbols and metaphors. This holds true for all faiths. I know many enlightened Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. who would agree with this. I also know many enlightened followers of non-religious belief systems who would also agree with this. There are many excellent non-religious belief systems and they are equally important. Following a particular belief system is a personal choice. We should all respect each other's differences in rituals and customs.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light". This could mean "Let there be starlight", which represents a key milestone after the creation of our Universe, beginning with the Big Bang. To me it also means "let there be enlightenment".

Religious views of a person should be consistent with that person's life. Cars require enlightenment.

Any thoughts on this?

Why do creationists not trust the age of the Earth? Evolution? A high mountain requires more time to build. A pebble requires a lot of water to keep flowing over it. The half-times of isoptopes can be clearly observed. Resistant bacteria adapt to deal with threats from antibiotics. We can even watch DNA make copies of itself and measure the rate of errors (mutations). GPS receivers can monitor plate tectonics. I have trouble understanding half-hearted enlightenment of creationists in support of the science behind cars, but being ignorant about the age of the Earth or the Universe.

Well, some creationists were brainwashed when they were kids. So they are actually victims and we need to develop strategies to unbrainwash their minds. College professors have a hard time with them as freshmans in science classes. The dangerous people are the "thought" leaders of creationism and I suspect that they also have political goals. I'm glad that European governments have begun dealing with the issue, see the resolution below. By the way, I would consider myself to be an enlightened Christian. I believe in God. I admire the teachings of Jesus. They are wonderful, smart and very long-sighted. I love science. I find it very sad that creationist leaders try to hijack religion and use it for their own purposes. Terrorists try to do the same and of course this is worse as people also get killed. All of this drives people away from religion. What we need is enlightened religious leaders with enough charisma and the willingness to cooperate with enlightened politicians (not all politicians fall into this category). We need strategies to contain creationism and "intelligent" design.

A note on Social Darwinism: I think homo sapiens became such a successful species because it also developed solidarity and social behavior. Natural selection favored groups of early homo sapiens (and its ancestors) because they were helping each other. They developed painting and language. Survival of the fittest in economic terms does not mean the company that is most ruthless will survive. Ruthlessness might lead to short-term success, but that's about it. What you need is fair competition and real stakeholder value. Treat everyone well. Your customers, your employees, your local communities. Long-term you will also have happy shareholders. Focus on short-term shareholder value only and you're doomed. Natural selection. Darwin was a smart man.

Our children should not only learn about science, but also philosophy, ethics, religion, purpose, identity and a lot more. They should not be indoctrinated. Science cannot answer every question there is. Science cannot prove or disprove God. Whether God exists is a matter of belief. A matter of faith. Science cannot answer the question why anything exists at all. We need both. But we don't need pseudoreligions such as creationism messing with science. Religion should stick with the realm outside science. Purpose. Meaning of life (beyond that of selfish genes). Values. Peace.

I'm trying to comprehend the Creationist view and the appeal of Dark Ages belief systems in general. There are some in other religions as well. Without understanding we cannot develop useful strategies to fight the Dark Ages belief systems. They appear harmless at first. I'm sure many non-suspecting Creationists are good and warm-hearted people. They are being misled by charismatic pseudoreligious leaders who seem to have political agendas as well. Not so harmless anymore. Kids get brainwashed by their strict parents. Creationism gets very harmful when it comes to hijacking the education system, in particular the curriculums of science classes. We cannot allow this. We have to fight this. This is what the European Union is trying to achieve (see resolution below). It's sad how far this has spread in the United States. In the mid-term the movement can become very dangerous. First it will lead to the burning of books and later to the burning of witches. Galileo was found guilty of heresy and put under house arrest. Giordano Bruno was killed. He was burned at the stake as a heretic. We think we live in the 21st century and all of this happened a long time ago. Can we be sure the Dark Ages will not return? Can we take democracy and freedom for granted? Or does it take an effort to defend it?

Undermining scientific method in a few areas can eventually spread to other areas as well. Let's try to contain it while we still can. I don't want to go back to the burning of witches. Europeans are quite worried about what's going on in the US. I don't want brainwashing in our schools. Here's a very recent resolution from the European Parliamentary Assembly:

1. The aim of this resolution is not to question or to fight a belief – the right to freedom of belief does not permit that. The aim is to warn against certain tendencies to pass off a belief as science. It is necessary to separate belief from science. It is not a matter of antagonism. Science and belief must be able to coexist. It is not a matter of opposing belief and science, but it is necessary to prevent belief from opposing science.

2. For some people the Creation, as a matter of religious belief, gives a meaning to life. Nevertheless, the Parliamentary Assembly is worried about the possible ill-effects of the spread of creationist ideas within our education systems and about the consequences for our democracies. If we are not careful, creationism could become a threat to human rights, which are a key concern of the Council of Europe.

3. Creationism, born of the denial of the evolution of species through natural selection, was for a long time an almost exclusively American phenomenon. Today creationist ideas are tending to find their way into Europe and their spread is affecting quite a few Council of Europe member states.

4. The prime target of present-day creationists, most of whom are of the Christian or Muslim faith, is education. Creationists are bent on ensuring that their ideas are included in the school science syllabuses. Creationism cannot, however, lay claim to being a scientific discipline.

5. Creationists question the scientific character of certain areas of knowledge and argue that the theory of evolution is only one interpretation among others. They accuse scientists of not providing enough evidence to establish the theory of evolution as scientifically valid. On the contrary, creationists defend their own statements as scientific. None of this stands up to objective analysis.

6. We are witnessing a growth of modes of thought which challenge established knowledge about nature, evolution, our origins and our place in the universe.

7. There is a real risk of serious confusion being introduced into our children's minds between what has to do with convictions, beliefs, ideals of all sorts and what has to do with science. An "all things are equal" attitude may seem appealing and tolerant, but is in fact dangerous.

8. Creationism has many contradictory aspects. The "intelligent design" idea, which is the latest, more refined version of creationism, does not deny a certain degree of evolution. However, intelligent design, presented in a more subtle way, seeks to portray its approach as scientific, and therein lies the danger.

9. The Assembly has constantly insisted that science is of fundamental importance. Science has made possible considerable improvements in living and working conditions and is a rather significant factor in economic, technological and social development. The theory of evolution has nothing to do with divine revelation but is built on facts.

10. Creationism claims to be based on scientific rigour. In reality the methods employed by creationists are of three types: purely dogmatic assertions; distorted use of scientific quotations, sometimes illustrated with magnificent photographs; and backing from more or less well-known scientists, most of whom are not specialists in these matters. By these means creationists seek to appeal to non-specialists and spread doubt and confusion in their minds.

11. Evolution is not simply a matter of the evolution of humans and of populations. Denying it could have serious consequences for the development of our societies. Advances in medical research, aiming at combating infectious diseases such as Aids, are impossible if every principle of evolution is denied. One cannot be fully aware of the risks involved in the significant decline in biodiversity and climate change if the mechanisms of evolution are not understood.

12. Our modern world is based on a long history, of which the development of science and technology forms an important part. However, the scientific approach is still not well understood and this is liable to encourage the development of all manner of fundamentalism and extremism. The total rejection of science is definitely one of the most serious threats to human and civic rights.

13. The war on the theory of evolution and on its proponents most often originates in forms of religious extremism closely linked to extreme right-wing political movements. The creationist movements possess real political power. The fact of the matter, and this has been exposed on several occasions, is that some advocates of strict creationism are out to replace democracy by theocracy.

14. All leading representatives of the main monotheistic religions have adopted a much more moderate attitude. Pope Benedict XVI, for example, as his predecessor Pope John-Paul II, today praises the role of science in the evolution of humanity and recognises that the theory of evolution is "more than a hypothesis".

15. The teaching of all phenomena concerning evolution as a fundamental scientific theory is therefore crucial to the future of our societies and our democracies. For that reason it must occupy a central position in the curriculums, and especially in the science syllabuses, as long as, like any other theory, it is able to stand up to thorough scientific scrutiny. Evolution is present everywhere, from medical overprescription of antibiotics that encourages the emergence of resistant bacteria to agricultural overuse of pesticides that causes insect mutations on which pesticides no longer have any effect.

16. The Council of Europe has highlighted the importance of teaching about culture and religion. In the name of freedom of expression and individual belief, creationist ideas, as any other theological position, could possibly be presented as an addition to cultural and religious education, but they cannot claim scientific respectability.

17. Science provides irreplaceable training in intellectual rigour. It seeks not to explain "why things are" but to understand how they work.

18. Investigation of the creationists' growing influence shows that the arguments between creationism and evolution go well beyond intellectual debate. If we are not careful, the values that are the very essence of the Council of Europe will be under direct threat from creationist fundamentalists. It is part of the role of the Council of Europe's parliamentarians to react before it is too late.

19. The Parliamentary Assembly therefore urges the member states, and especially their education authorities to:

19.1. defend and promote scientific knowledge;

19.2. strengthen the teaching of the foundations of science, its history, its epistemology and its methods alongside the teaching of objective scientific knowledge;

19.3. make science more comprehensible, more attractive and closer to the realities of the contemporary world;

19.4. firmly oppose the teaching of creationism as a scientific discipline on an equal footing with the theory of evolution and in general the presentation of creationist ideas in any discipline other than religion;

19.5. promote the teaching of evolution as a fundamental scientific theory in the school curriculums.

20. The Assembly welcomes the fact that 27 academies of science of Council of Europe member states signed, in June 2006, a declaration on the teaching of evolution and calls on academies of science that have not yet done so to sign the declaration.


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#6 thughes

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 02:23 PM

Because of the way people think, fighting dark age belief systems will always be a battle IMO. Beyond the need to improve critical thinking education in schools, I think a great deal can be done on a day to day basis by individuals, things such as:

- Support skeptical organizations such as the James Randi Educational Foundation.
- Ensure you are politically aware of any encroachments in your area, and spend some time being politically active against them, even if that just means a simple letter to your representative.
- Learn enough psychology to understand the thinking problems the human brain has, and be able to explain them to affected or vulnerable people.
- Become educated on the important dark age beliefs so you can successfully argue against them (eg. on online forums). This will at least help undecided people listening in to have more tools to make wise decisions.

I've used your term dark age beliefs to cover any pseudoscience belief, although admittedly some are less threatening than others (eg. alternative medicine and astrology).

Any more ideas out there?

I think keeping a good list of skeptical books to recommend to people would be helpful, things that help people who are undecided understand the situation a bit better. Personally I like:

- Don't Believe Everything You Think, by Thomas Kida: http://www.amazon.co...h...2974&sr=8-1

For the debate against homeopathy and other non evidence based medical systems I've recently picked up:

- Snake Oil Science: The Truth about Complimentary and Alternative Medicine, by R. Barker Bausell: http://www.amazon.co...o...3059&sr=1-1

I'm going to invest in a good anti creationism book as well, I've been looking at:

- The Counter Creationism Handbook by Mark Isaac: http://www.amazon.co...d=3PSXKLTA0FYM8

There are also a few good ones out there on the more subtle issue of Intelligent Design, which I'd like to get, eg:

- Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design by Barbara Forrest: http://www.amazon.co...d=3PSXKLTA0FYM8

- Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism by Matt Young: http://www.amazon.co...d=3PSXKLTA0FYM8

- Unintelligent Design by Mark Perakh: http://www.amazon.co...d=3PSXKLTA0FYM8

There are a lot of offerings in this category, not sure where to start.

If anyone has any other book suggestions to help learn the various arguments (or critiques of the above listed books) that would be great. I suppose I should add one on conspiracy theories to this list, such as the vaccine debate or Holocaust denial.

There's one point on which we'll disagree though, I feel as long as faith (belief without evidence) is given a free pass in society and treated as something positive, we'll always be vulnerable. Belief that you don't need evidence, belief that faith is a good thing, sets up a good breeding ground for dark age belief memes. I suppose an argument can be made for there being a difference between faith in things that are empirically testable and have been empirically falsified, and faith in the currently unknown. But its a slippery slope, albeit one we may have to live with as a society.

- Mey

Edited by meyusa, 08 April 2008 - 02:32 PM.


#7 Splicer

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Posted 23 July 2008 - 07:57 AM

If anyone has any other book suggestions to help learn the various arguments (or critiques of the above listed books) that would be great. I suppose I should add one on conspiracy theories to this list, such as the vaccine debate or Holocaust denial.

To me the best way to approach a debate is to focus on understanding the arguments of the opposition. In a way it's a version of Poppers rule of falsifiability. If there is merit to the opposing position I want to find it as soon as possible.  

In this vein I'd like to recommend "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Darwinism and Intelligent Design" by Jonathan Wells(you can find it as a audio book torrent). It does a good job of summing up the justifications people give for believing in intelligent design. I have actively tried to find a realistic argument for id, but I don't think there is one. There's a lot of basic misunderstandings of what science is, how science works and what evolution/natural selection is. 


There's one point on which we'll disagree though, I feel as long as faith (belief without evidence) is given a free pass in society and treated as something positive, we'll always be vulnerable. Belief that you don't need evidence, belief that faith is a good thing, sets up a good breeding ground for dark age belief memes. I suppose an argument can be made for there being a difference between faith in things that are empirically testable and have been empirically falsified, and faith in the currently unknown. But its a slippery slope, albeit one we may have to live with as a society.


I too think that the major annoyance with religion is that it teaches children to believe without proof. One has probably been brought up in a religious home if one believes dead people talk to some chubby guy or that "rooting out evil" is a doable enterprise. 

About the dark ages scenario: Religion is on the decline, the religious are getting more secular everywhere. This is the reason there are religious reactionaries now, everyone is slowly leaving the boat so they need to be loud and spectacular to get the attention of their constituency.

The next technological revolution is probably going to be based on synthetic biology. The way I see it it's going to intrude much on domains previously exclusively held by religion. They will have to rewrite gods job description again. 

#8 Imminst = pro murder (omega)

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 07:54 AM

I think more and more people resort to Dark Ages belief systems, because they feel overwhelmed by the accelerating technological change. Examples for Dark Ages belief systems are superstition, witchcraft, astrology, creationism, psychic reading, intelligent design and so forth. As the number of followers continues to be on the rise I think there's a real new and serious danger to the future of humanity. Very often science and technology is depicted as evil and dangerous. Religious fanatics already brainwash their kids.

To me the worst case scenarios include book burning, putting "heretics" into prison and eventually burning "witches" at the stake. It happened in the middle ages in Europe and it is happening today in countries like Saudi Arabia or Iran which employs a religious "police force". So far in the West creationists only attempt to modify the curriculum of biology classes. If they succeed their next moves will be far bolder. We have to prevent this from ever happening. How can we reduce the appeal of Dark Ages belief systems?


Its been more than a year since the start of this thread. That "Examples for Dark Ages belief systems are superstition, witchcraft, astrology, creationism, psychic reading, intelligent design and so forth" seems rather bereft of accuracy, promoting exactly what the thread starter seeks to negate. Intelligent design has been a part of evolution apparently from early on as it was recently found bacteria communicate their conditions with each other using chemical signaling and act on that intelligence. Categorical denial of intelligent design fosters our giving up on being intelligent ourselves and relegating intelligence to some outside authoritarian force which is actually anti-intelligence. Intelligence is an internal cooperative effort, it is the result of an information handling scheme that promotes greater mutual survival. It is a part of life itself. To deny that life had or has any influence on its own evolution is to aid in preserving the Dark Ages belief systems. If you think we are out of the dark ages now, wait a few years and look again. You may come to find that the dark ages have been running full bore for practically all of our existence and are going to require ardent long lasting collective efforts to avoid their destroying us.

I find that superstition, psychic reading and even creationism are open to interpretation and also suffer from categorical denial. I see evolution as a creationism. Why go and limit the interpretation of the word to just involving an outside omnipotence? Must we deny our own power to create which has been upwelling and evident since the first life forms? I see reference by someone who seems to echo the thread starter to pseudoscience. Be aware, much of what is considered science today was once considered pseudoscience by many, mainly to defend a status quo of power apportionment and dependency. Such misuse of the word as a reason to deny developing valuable science is evident today.

I think one stoops to a common deception when referring to "religious fanatics." Whom you are trying to describe are not acting on beliefs they hold from personal conviction but actually from an external, impersonally imposed belief. Fanaticism is never religious. Religion is not characterized by blind unquestioning faith. I know it is difficult to see this with the gang warfare paradigm monopolizing human social conditions. What pass for religions today are not, commonly. They are coercions, a manifestation of a belief in might makes right, that proclamation trumps observation, that mandating overrules collaboration. To limit your view of where the Dark Ages persist today to just a couple of predominantly Muslim nations without recognizing their conditions of free-thought oppression that is mirrored in so-called Christian nations, misses the mark, does not target the problem via a propensity to ignore the conditions that exist in practically all nation states. Seems the originating author of this thread does not see his interpretation of "creationists" as having impacted his own culture all that much. How about abortion? How about use of birth control? How about the use of condoms to fight STDs? What about the death penalty? How many people endorse war as preferred arbitration and claim to be creationists? Who seek armageddon and the rapture and why do they hold any public offices?

The way out of the difficulty can only be with ardent accuracy in our use of terms. We must look to our social machinery with intelligence and redesign as well as redeploy ad infinitum in an ever narrowing targeting of promoting intelligence.

Secularism is nihilistic, as far as I can tell. To seek a belief system that does not embrace a right or wrong nor a spiritual interpretation of life, is to lose the heart of science, IMHO.

#9 Ben

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Posted 26 May 2009 - 10:38 AM

Secularism is nihilistic, as far as I can tell. To seek a belief system that does not embrace a right or wrong nor a spiritual interpretation of life, is to lose the heart of science, IMHO.


Profound. Good to see you posting again.

#10 imarobot

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 04:44 PM

A scientific education without the sacred, or "religious", is emotionless and hollow. And a religion without science can rapidly become dogmatic and close minded.


What does sacred mean? Do morals and respect cover the same ground without the irrational beliefs?

To me, religion and spirituality are hollow. I have the most respect for people who know the universe to be cold and indifferent yet are moral and respectful in spite of this. These secularists are good without an eventual payoff. This is the highest level of moral behavior. Religionists are people who think that they will someday be rewarded for their good thoughts and behavior. This is a lower form of moral behavior. I question their motives and their inherent goodness.

Edited by imarobot, 28 May 2009 - 04:46 PM.


#11 brokenportal

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 06:53 PM

MattBrowne-

People needed religion to help qualm the horror of death. Now we have the ability to work with the things that cause us to age and so people will revert from the "dark age" mentality, more and more, as we inform them more and more. Once the world knows about this, we will have all the support we need. There is at least one seedling of a path to make that happen here: http://www.imminst.o...showtopic=30123 and there are a few others, but not many. I could be wrong of course, but me and many others, and more and more people see it as natural to realize that there will be no need to fear that the world will be stuck in a dark age mentality. You will always have a few people on the fringe anywhere you go, but that is fine.

Imarobot-

Good point about being moral on your own instead of having to be prompted by a reward.

#12 Imminst = pro murder (omega)

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 07:59 PM

It is a spiritual understanding to see all life as connected. It is realistic as we need to respect our life support system which is our biosphere for our own personal welfare. A claim of anarchists, with no compulsion to be accurate in their use of terminology, to having religion and morality denigrates development of sound strongly held belief as well as intelligent respectful behavior. As a corollary, we may have never known democracy but virtually every nation claims to have it and people in general value the idea and pursue it. Morals are not just a personal option. Morals linked via sound science to serving all including the self gives immediate and long lasting reward. The data, the knowledge that compels mutual respect for other humans and life in general needs to be spread far and wide with a religious fervor before it is too late and our individual lives are snuffed short, IMHO.

Edited by Omega, 28 May 2009 - 08:01 PM.


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#13 russianBEAR

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Posted 08 July 2009 - 06:17 PM

I'm all about dark ages belief systems, but it doesnt include superstition, witchcraft, or me being a religious fanatic. It's more about - progress is kind of meaningless, and while fun it also puts you out of touch with nature.

To all you science and progress buffs - get out of that lab, get out of that city and get in touch with nature. There are tons of magical things that people do not notice because they're so out of touch with the very planet that allowed them to be born. SO while you increase progress and industries, you lose touch with the spiritual apsect of life. Hell, a lot of people don't even have a spiritual aspect of life nowadays. You know what's really fun? Listening to the animals, birds, communicating with them. Communicating with the plants and everything around you. But seems like at least here in Moscow people don't notice 90% of the things that surround them. They're too busy goin from and to work, thinkin about stressful stuff which limits their lifespan, and getting more neurotic by the day.

I personally just wanna live out in the nature and not in this bs city with a large community of people around me and get by on natural produce :) 

And if you think that dark ages stuff is all crap - go to any shamanic ritual. A few experiences gurus will make you feel more intense than a load of hallucinogenic drugs without you taking anything. The things you'll see and realize will blow you away, more so than science maybe.

Edited by russianBEAR, 08 July 2009 - 06:18 PM.





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