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Christian Right Lobbies to Overturn the


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#1 kevin

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 05:58 AM


Despite the best efforts of athiests everywhere to reduce the workings of the universe to meaningless random chance, it hasn't deterred a group of concerned individuals to bring back some sense of order to an increasingly disordered reality. :)

Christian Right Lobbies for Repeal of Second Law of Thermodynamics

#2 Cyto

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 08:15 AM

You would almost think that The Onion would then have at the bottom: "Haha, fooled you! You REALLY think people are that stupid?!?!?"

Anyways...

#3 ocsrazor

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 12:02 PM

That is hilarious - and a great parody of the efforts of fundamentalists to ignore the "Law" of Evolution. The Onion does such a great job of taking things just out of context enough to really drive the truth home.

Too add a note of seriousness to the levity - there is also another level of irony that is interesting here in that the view that the mock Christians espouse is absolutely correct - the Universe is not heading for heat death - it is getting more complex (as you know Kevin I pointed this out in my reply to Casanova's post End of Humanity) The 2nd law shouldn't be repealed, but its dominance has certainly been overstated.

I actually had a bible thumper accost me at the student center the other day and I was in one of my moods where I was up for an attempt at reverse conversion. He tried to bring the "heat death" argument up as part of the picture of what is wrong with the "scientific" view of the world. He was shocked when I agreed with him, and dismayed when I told him that serious scientists just don't believe the whole "the Universe is going to die in heat death" argument anymore. It messed up his whole line of thought on scientific materialism. The Newtonian view of an equilibrium Universe has not been dominant for some time, but it is interesting that the general public, and even many ignorant scientists, keep repeating 300 year old science memes. (The thumper hurriedly walked away with a slightly shaken look on his face after I disected his arguments one by one, hopefully I shook up his worldview and forced him to at least question his beliefs) The Universe is becoming more organized with time, by any measure you want to consider, but it doesn't require an omnipotent overseer to produce this organization.

Best,
Peter

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#4 Mechanus

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 07:18 PM

ocsrazor,

Could you expand on this? As far as I know, even though the concept of "heat death" was conceived of when the universe was thought to be static (1850-1900?), something similar is still considered the default fate for an expanding universe. There may be ways out (such as Dyson's); however, the universe's becoming more "organized" with time now is consistent with it eventually becoming very cold and very homogeneous. It seems certain that heat death can only be avoided through (super)intelligent intervention, if at all.

#5 kevin

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 09:18 PM

Having been recently exposed to X-Ray crystallography I came upon the realization that organized structures (crystals) form spontaneously. I had previously wondered about the origins of life and how the magic purine-pyrimidine stacked molecules of DNA came to be a self perpetuating information storage. What force was there inherent in the molecules that required they replicate? It seemed to me that the base pairing of DNA was similar to that of the ordering one sees in crystal growth, but where did DNA come from? How did an obviously complicated information transfer system arise from an inanimate and inorganic world in the abscence of divine intervention?

I found one opinion from the religious sect here (circa 1980).. :

Evolution, Creation, and Thermodynamics by Carl Weiland

which argued for divine intervention while I found another opposite view

The Origin of Life - Crystals

which describes how crystals can form the basis of an information transmission system setting the stage for organic molecular evolution.

I'm still delving into this and developing my own thoughts on this but it seems to me that not only the devil, but the divine could be in the details of physics and crystals could be the seed for life as we know it.

#6 ocsrazor

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 12:34 PM

Hi Kevin,

The first article you gave gets two things right. One, evolution alone is not sufficient to produce life. Evolution is just the mechanism, the ordering law (which is in development now in physics and biology) provides the state space of possibility on which selection acts. The fundamental constants of our Universe seem to be tuned for formation of complex, highly ordered structures. Two, energy is being converted into information and stored locally everywhere in the Universe you look.

The article gets everything else completely wrong. The 2nd Law does not preclude evolution, but is one of the driving forces behind selection - unnecessary info being erased is the energy requiring step of organization. Pre-coding is not necessary, complex order will arise from any sufficiently diverse system whose components have enough connectivity. These type of structures then drive themselves forward, incorporating even more information and increasing their ability to self-connect. Order is very much a spontaneous part of the Universe: Four forces -> fundamental particles -> electrons, neutrinos, quarks -> protons, neutrons -> atoms -> 1st gen. stars -> higher order atoms -> planetary bodies -> molecular diversity -> life (bio. evolution, multiple steps skipped here)-> conciousness

Heat death was conceived of in the late 1800's, but it is a direct decendant of the Newtonian picture of an equilibrium universe. Quantum theory, relativity, and complex and emergent systems theory has completely overturned this picture of the Universe. Things are actually becoming less homogeneous, with time (more and more local sources of organization), and it is still not clear that there is a fixed amount of energy in the Universe (i.e. it may not be a closed system) This gets into some pretty wild and woolly cosmology that I am not completely comfortable with yet though.

The crystal article (actually a summary of the Cairns-Smith ideas on origins of life) is right on target. As we know now - life as naked replicator in open water is kind of silly - even as small a body of water as a tidal pool. You do need a surface to act on to concetrate enough molecules to get the information denstiy and level of interaction required to create a functioning whole. Cairns-Smith proposes clays as the possible surface for interaction. One of the most exciting ideas along this track is the concept that life arose in deep sea thermal vents, which have iron-nickel chemistry (which are great chemical catalysts) with lots of little pockets roughly the same size as bacterial cells and the pockets have extremely high molecular diversity. The idea is that these pockets acted as the protected environment in which pre-membrane biochemistry formed coherent molecular systems. Their is strong evidence for something like this happening because the two most primitive forms of life, the simple Prokaryotes and the Archaea, have internal biochemistries which suggest a common evolutionary ancestor, but their membrane structures are so different that it is likely that their different lipid coats arose in seperate evolutionary events. If this is true, the basic biochemistry of life comes first before formation of a protected chemical environment (the membrane) and it clears up a lot of the nasty timing issues involved in origin of life theory.

I'm literally writing a book on this stuff (information theory at multiple scales) I have a huge stack of research yet to do to complete it, but my thoughts are definitely crystalizing (pun intended). Can't discuss much this week, because I'm trying to get a bunch of writing done before Transvision - a couple of articles on mind uploading and the ethics of neural implantation - but I would be happy to continue the discussion after next Tuesday when I get back.

Best,
Peter

#7 ocsrazor

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Posted 24 June 2003 - 12:31 PM

BTW Kevin, There is a great book on how self replicating molecular systems arose to form life - Touchstone of Life by Werner Lowenstein

Also any of Stuart Kauffman's books address many of the same issues.

Best, Peter




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