Why immortality?

Hi, I am a student (only 15 but don't hold that against me) and I am doing an assignment concerning an ethical dilemma the future human may face. I chose the topic of immortality, how it will effect the birth/death rate, the human population, strain on resources, technology advances, human mentality etc. As modern pop-culture has very few positive views I can access, I was hoping everyone here could enlighten me.

Edited by maestro949, 21 March 2007 - 08:48 AM.

Hi pokestine,
GREAT essay topic! I think we might be able to pull up HEAPS of great facts for you

First thing you should do to get you started is watch this:
http://video.google....ortality&time=0

That will actually help answer most of your questions, and then you can probably follow up with more questions...

Hi, I am a student (only 15 but don't hold that against me) and I am doing an assignment concerning an ethical dilemma the future human may face.

Welcome.

I chose the topic of immortality, how it will effect the birth/death rate,

Death rate will obviously slow. Birth rate is tough to predict as economics, education and culture tend to be a driving factor here. Culture will adapt to longer life spans as they have in the past and people may continue to choose to have fewer children based on resources and desired lifestyle.

population, strain on resources

Resource and energy constraints will be the limiting factor in the short-term but long-term there's no reason to assume (or fear) that any type of cap needs to be placed on population. The universe is a big place and there's quite a bit of energy and matter to harnass. Once we can ensure that we don't destroy our ecosystem that is required for survival, we should be able to sustain populations to any level we choose though extraterrestrial habitation will likely be needed at some point.

strain on resources,

Efficiencies via nanotechnology and improved abilities to harnass energy will continuously allow us to bring more resources under our control. This will always be our limiting factor as we're bound by the physical laws of the universe but it's nothing to lose sleep over.

technology advances

Longer lives combined with improved congnative ability, instant communication and unimpeded access to information is leading to a concept referred to as accelerating returns. This will continue for a long time and at some point, we will be able to engineer and repair just about anything we set our minds to. Even life itself.

human mentality

Hard to say. Long term, it's possible for humans to achieve a singulatarian utopia but it's not clear how the unaltered human mind would function in such a state considering it's biological wiring. Historically the trend has been to fear and resist rapid changes however the current generations (yours included) are showing an amazing ability to adapt to the changing landspace of technology, communcations, markets and culture.

As to the title: well, each morning I decide to breathe instead of not breathing. Each morning I'd rather be alive than dead. I can expect this trend to continue.

Aegist sadly the EQ server doesn't allow me to connect to that link could you please tell me what it said.
I'm planning on basing my essay on the effects of immortallity on the human mind, whether we could handle it or not, would the suicide/eutnanasia rate rise? would our views on it change? How would human's react if they woke up tomorrow and everyone was immortal? That sort of thing. I would also like your personal opinion on why immortality is good. thanks!

pokestine, one part of immortality that interests me (aside from simply wanting to live) is the economic benefit. I really think that aging and one's knowledge of his or her eventual death causes a lot of problems. Why do many people have a midlife crisis? It is caused from the realization that one will not be able to achieve everything one had hoped to do combined with the realization that one is losing one's abilities. I think many people would devote more time to education and self improvement if they knew that they were going to live longer. Many people reasonably consider whether the time that they invest in further education, such as a Ph. D will "pay off" for them in the end. Self improvement is restrained by practical considerations. Second, it economically makes sense to fix the disease that kills more people than all other causes of death combined. Just consider all the health costs that can be saved. Third, consider that the productive span of the average human is only around 30 years. The rest of that time, they are consuming more than they produce. Further, consider that the last 10 years are probably not going to be as productive as the first 10 due to cognitive decline caused by aging. So not only the quantity of human output, but the efficiency of output is also impacted (this holds true for the people that I have observed -- there are exceptions though, many CEOs are older -- however they got to the place that they are at due to their past, not their present accomplishments). Those age discrimination laws (which I support) are in place for a reason. Finally, it just feels better. Before my grandfather died, my grandmother had to help him go to the bathroom. His food was blended together so that he could swallow it without choking. Who wants that? Does anyone want diabetes? Cancer? Alzheimer's? Why have not these problems been fixed? Are they really less trivial than sending a man to the moon or fighting an unnecessary war?

That's very interesting and a valid point I hadn't thought of, thank you Ghostrider

Why immortality?

Why not?

Keep in mind that immortality is pretty well a pipe dream; you never know if you've succeeded. The best you can hope for is to make your life such that you don't have a reasonable expectation of dying in the visible future.

At all times, people have to ask "do I want to live another decad?" Usually, they answer "yes"

The dream to live forever is a reality only in this one we have to beat death

Yup, and the goal of life extension research is to extend the healthy middle age part of life. People love to glorify old age. My personal experience has been that becoming very old is no walk in the park. Losing ones mind through senility, losing control of bodily functions, general pain, discomfort when moving, losing attractive physical appearance... aging is a hell of a disease. Even if I could only live to the ripe age of 80, I would much rather spend all that time feeling like a 30 year old.

so to many of you the idea is not immortality but to remain youthful for your entire life. My essay is concrening the idea of the future human so immortality will be not be a near impossible dream but a reality.

To Ghostrider, you're idea interested me so I've been thinking about it and human nature. Sometimes a person works better with a deadline (myself included). If a person knew that they had forever to do something, would they ever get it done? Knowing that our life is limited is what makes people bungey-jump off cliffs and dive out of planes, climb mountains. Without the "you only live once" mentality people may loose the urge to really live. tell me your ideas on that please.

QJones, please keep in mind that I am thinking of the whole idea that immortality is possible in the future, when asked "do you want to live another decade?" the answer is reasonably predictable, but if the question changes to "do you want to live forever?" the answer may very well change, or the person being asked will want more clarification eg will my family live forever as well? The idea of immortality can boil down to the idea "is death the worst thing that can possible happen to you?" they didn't make the saying "living hell" for nothing. this links into what I mentioned before, suicide and euthanasia would human views on them change.

Live Forever you said Why not immortality? I think to help understanding I will list some of the the negative points of immortality that I have found and not already mentioned or clarified
If people live forever, will we get anything done? Will we still have motivation?
Are humans strong enough to handle living forever, the monotony of everyday life, would people get bored, they is only so much you can do/get out of life.
Would we stop caring? if we are perminently healthy (taking a few liberties here), if we can't get sick or age, would we stop caring what we do to ourselves because there are no side-effects that we have to face?
Our death rate wil obviously drop but will our birth rate slow to compensate for this drop? Will we become even more over-populated? To the point where birth is regulated and illeagal births are killed. (I know you gave an answer for this Maestro949 but I think it is a little to open and sounded like we'll deal with it when it comes, sorry if I misunderstood)
I can't think of anything else at the moment, so I'll get back to you, please think about what I've said.

so to many of you the idea is not immortality but to remain youthful for your entire life.

I think there's quite a mix here in regards to ideas, goals and predictions. The common theme is obviously to live a. much longer and b. healthier. Most here recognize that the term immortality is a bit over the top as it implies infinite lifespan, something that is unlikely for even many future generations but some feel that this may not be out of the question even for our generation.

Will we become even more over-populated?

What is your definition of over-populated? I don't consider the world to be overpopulated but rather under-developed in regards to social, economic, educational and technological infrastructure. We also lack the cocommitment to develop the necessary technologies to maintain the ecosphere and the will to put contracts in place to ensure sustainability of it. Contrary to popular myth, this planet could easily sustain a few hundred billion people assuming proper planning to sustain the growth.

To the point where birth is regulated and illeagal births are killed. (I know you gave an answer for this Maestro949 but I think it is a little to open and sounded like we'll deal with it when it comes, sorry if I misunderstood)

It has to be open ended and furthermore we may not need to regulate population. It may self-regulate itself. The things I mention above, eductation, etc., may alone self-regulate population. Population in many western countries are actually declining.

I was hoping everyone here could enlighten me.

Excellent, here are a few resources for you to get started with.

http://www.imminst.o...i/index.php/FAQ
http://imminst.org/film
http://imminst.org/book1
http://www.imminst.org/conference

Thank you hankconn that FAQ was very helpful. I think I have isolated the few flaws and negative points of immortality.
First I will define immortality as I will be using it, Living forever, immune to all disease with no death except by unnatural causes.
concerning over-population, maybe I'm just not getting the point but I still see this as abig problem. Resources on Earth, as far as I know, are limited. Space is also limited. People will continue to have children but there will be no deaths to even things out, the sudden increase in population may have drastic side-effects
Human's don't have the mentality to be immortal, the idea of a finite life is aceptable, one that shall last forever will probably send many people stir-crazy.
People will stop taking risks because instead of risking just 70 yrs or less of life you are risking near infinite life.
As well as the wise genius that will live, the idiot, the psycho and the hypocrite will live as well. Older people will get more say, fresh ideas will come less and less often, change may very well stop.
Those with bad lives will be more likely to commit suicide because they know that any other form of escape is impossible, they won't outlive any tormenters and they just have eternity of more pain.
if I think of anything else I'll add it, if someone could try and explain the overpopulation idea to me better please do so, also any comments on what I have written.

I think I have isolated the few flaws and negative points of immortality.

I beg to differ. Overpopulation and Boredom. These are simply the same irrational fears and unsupported hypothetical predictions that are parrotted over and over by those that oppose the notion of immortality.

concerning over-population, maybe I'm just not getting the point but I still see this as abig problem. Resources on Earth, as far as I know, are limited. Space is also limited. People will continue to have children but there will be no deaths to even things out, the sudden increase in population may have drastic side-effects

Two flaws here:

1.) The assumption that people will continue to have children at the same rate. Population in educated and wealthier countries are actually declining. Spread education and wealth and population will not be an issue. We may face the inverse problem in the future.

2.) Your concern over resources. Our management of resources today is horribly inefficient compared to what is possible. The sun generates enough enerygy for earth in 1 minute what we use in a year. Our ability to harness this and other forms of energy will continue to grow. The efficiency at which we manage it will also improve. As far as physical resources, we haven't tapped .01% of what is available. The key is managing the ecosphere and keeping it balanced such that microbial life which sustains our food supply isn't disrupted. Our ignorance here may limit population far faster than the deathist's desired death rate.

Human's don't have the mentality to be immortal, the idea of a finite life is aceptable, one that shall last forever will probably send many people stir-crazy.

This is pure speculation. I personally don't accept the idea of a finite life but rather see it as an unfortunate constraint.

People will stop taking risks because instead of risking just 70 yrs or less of life you are risking near infinite life.

Is this a bad thing in your opninion?

As well as the wise genius that will live, the idiot, the psycho and the hypocrite will live as well.

Yes. We must live with all of these today. What is the difference? Hopefully we can provide services to these less fortunate malcontents. As far as the wise geniuses, we can only offer pitty.

Older people will get more say, fresh ideas will come less and less often, change may very well stop.

One of the goals would obviously be to rejuvenate ourselves to an optimal state of youthfulness where our minds are strong and have the same level of creativity as they do wisdom. Change will certainly slow at some point but not due to a lack of creativity but rather because we will reach physical limits to what can be accomplished.

Those with bad lives will be more likely to commit suicide because they know that any other form of escape is impossible, they won't outlive any tormenters and they just have eternity of more pain.

We will be able to shut pain off. Pain genes have already been identified and molecular solutions are being worked by pharmaceuticals. Emotional pain, depression and mood will also be manageable. Suicide will always be an option for those that choose to opt out. They will also be able to simply switch off for a bit if they don't like the current state of the world. Don't like the current regime in charge? Go into stasis for a decade or two.

if someone could try and explain the overpopulation idea to me better please do so, also any comments on what I have written.

Turn the argument around and ask yourself this : Should we kill people to manage population? By not pursuing healthcare and possible technological solutions to extend life, that is effectively what we are doing. It's very likely that population will flatline and even decline if education and birth control were made available to a higher percentage of the population.

You seem really hung up on the population thing. Read this:

http://www.longevity...m?article_id=24

Edited by maestro949, 28 March 2007 - 01:03 PM.

Living forever

That's not what we mean by immortality. Re-read the FAQ.

"Forever" is a long time, and we're not suggesting that. Most people who enjoy life can't get enough of it. Even most of those who claim they don't want to live longer than "natural" will go to the ends of the earth to cure themselves of cancer, heart disease and injuries when they get stricken. Modern drugs, surgical techniques and diagnostic tools are life extension technologies that few refuse.

concerning over-population, maybe I'm just not getting the point but I still see this as abig problem

You aren't getting the point. Try to look at all the links I gave you, also see these:
http://en.wikipedia...._nanotechnology
http://www.crnano.org/whatis.htm

(by the way there are many others who can probably find/make more specific arguments about this point, but when you take into account the possibilities of nanotech, the whole thing just seems moot to me)

Resources on Earth, as far as I know, are limited. Space is also limited.

Sure, theoretically, the Universe seems to be finite. However, theoretically, the computational power of just a few grains of sand can replace our current physical existence with a much more efficient (Matrix-like) existence. We aren't going to be running out of resources, at least, not for many billion billions of years.

Human's don't have the mentality to be immortal, the idea of a finite life is aceptable, one that shall last forever will probably send many people stir-crazy.

This is speculation...

People will stop taking risks because instead of risking just 70 yrs or less of life you are risking near infinite life.

The vast majority of the type of risks you are thinking of (can't cross the street or you might get hit by a bus!) are easily correctable with mature nanotechnology. But even so, is this really a point against immortality? "I don't want to have to avoid the risks of dying, so I think I'll go die..."

As well as the wise genius that will live, the idiot, the psycho and the hypocrite will live as well. Older people will get more say, fresh ideas will come less and less often, change may very well stop.

If you can imagine the growth of technology to support indefinite lifespans, you should keep in mind that many, many other technological fields are accelerating as well. Fixing broken minds, correcting unwanted features of our consciousness, and accelerating our intelligence are all possible. There are many things that must be taken into account here. I would tentatively suggest looking up the Singularity (http://en.wikipedia....cal_singularity, http://www.singinst.org), although this is a pretty advanced topic and should be approached after you look into the other immortality links as well as the nanotechnology links.

Edited by hankconn, 28 March 2007 - 01:28 PM.

This may also be of interest to you... http://yudkowsky.net.../funtheory.html


(actually without sufficient background I can imagine that document could be massively confusing hehe)

Edited by hankconn, 28 March 2007 - 01:32 PM.

yeah, thanks. Sorry if I sound a bit agressive I honestly don't mean to.
The definition I'm using for immortality is different from what you are using. I know this, I'm using this definition for immortality becauseit is more comonly understood and it's easier for me.
As for the amount of speculation I am using, as my entire assignment is speculation, I think I am allowed to exercise my imagination based of course from personal observation. I personally don't think people are going to get any smarter because they live longer, just more time to make mistakes.
By changing the wy a person thinks, we are changing them. The idea of doing that to create the "super human" scares the hell out of me. It suggests the idea of Utopia and that is the last thing I think anyone wants (when I say utopia, I refer to the "perfect" society with no fights or arguments or negative confrontation, in other words a uniform society with no free will).
By risks, I'm not only talking about death defiying stunts or day to day risks. It could just be going out on a limb with new company products. Or even doing something different from how you did it yesterday. I also include the death defiying stunts in there of course. Risk takes on new meaning for new people. I just feel people wouldn't dare do these things when they know they may loose forever or they will have forever to live with the consequences.
I haven't read those links yet but I will as soon as I can. This may sound a bit strange but asking me ethical or moral problems, please don't. At my school we actually have a class (called Theory of Knowledge) in which we spend a few hours a week talking about such things. We've come to the point where ethics and morals are artificial constucts created by humans and that they aren't natural and we are trying to decide what they are/should be and who hs the right to decide. Very headache enducing so sorry if I give a strange answer to a question like that, blame it on school.
One more question Do you know of any art/film/music that refers to immortality? In a good of bad light, doesn't matter to me. As my peice needs to be art based, I have to reference some of the arts.

By changing the wy a person thinks, we are changing them. The idea of doing that to create the "super human" scares the hell out of me.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you...