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Convincing people about life extension

Started by eldar , Mar 27 2007 12:30 PM

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#1 eldar

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 12:30 PM

Some time ago I decided to try and see how the concept of radical life extension would be accepted with some students from my university.
So I introduced the idea to some of my acquaintances.

Well, I was faced with some religious arguments, which was to be expected, but the most overwhelmingly popular response was that of ridicule and unwillingness to accept that anything like this would EVER be possible.

I felt like everyone thought I was whacked in the head and there was no convincing that would help them believe that 20-30 years of life extension to reach the escape velocity would be possible.

Well, I said not to take my word for it and promised I would provide some material to prove that I am not completely gone crazy and some agreed(with a smirk). So I provided them with Aubrey's presentation, this site, imminst video, Aubrey's site, mprize and some others, all tied into a neat little package.

And the response to that: nothing, propably just assured them that I was insane. And the most obvious thing was that even though many of them weren't religious, it seemed that no-one cared. It was as if the whole matter couldn't be anymore insignificant.

I mean I didn't exactly expect everyone to jump on the idea, but I was hoping for atleast some interest.

Since everyone I introduced to the idea knew me quite well I'll expect to be hearing for some time about being the person who "want's to live forever". Not that I care, only the ignorance is saddening.

Anyway that was it for me trying to convince people, or for that matter even discussing the whole idea unless someone else brings it up first.

I really can't see a way to convince people that radical life extension could be possible until we actually have the therapies available!

Comments? Anyone else had similar experiences?

#2 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 01:53 PM

wow, I'd love to have more input in this thread. I'm doing 1 to 3 radio interviews a day right now, trying to spread awareness about Mprize/ending aging, Cryonics/cryobiological advances in preservation and its reasonable chance of working, how we can do more good for the world or our respective religion with more time, investing in our space program, the progress of science over the past 200 years and its likely continuance into the future.... etc. etc. etc.

So far the hosts generally are interested in my view points.

I would love to hear about negative viewpoints--since any interview (esp. ones with people calling in) I can get the craziest stuff thrown my way-- so far its been relatively easy to deflect with aplomb, without somehow coming off as sanctimonious. (per my essay in SCD

) I'm all "Hey, I'm a normal housewife mother of three, author, I volunteer for my church, donate to international and national organizations--yet I'm a futurist as well, and these are issues imperative to our survival as a species, to be thinking about."

So, any talking points on immortalism?

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#3 JonesGuy

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 04:45 PM

You'll never win anyone over immediately, all ingrained ideas take time to dislodge. I mean, you cannot go to a Mormon and say "there was no Global Flood, but your scripture says there was" and expect them to start drinking coffee again.

They need to mull over the idea that death is not desirable. And then they need to notice progress in biotechnology. Then they'll put together the idea that they, too, can help speed the quest to find a cure for aging.

#4 Athanasios

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 05:03 PM

Great response QJones, I see that is how it works with many I know.

The more matter of fact and less sensational you are the better the response. The more you are not 'selling' them, the more they will look at it. People do not want to be confronted head on with something that has this big of implications. They will want to weigh it over time.

I usually bring it up as it being something that will eventually happen, as people are working on it, but 'unfortunately not enough people care to ensure that it will happen sooner'. Then I drop it entirely, letting the other person take the direction they want.

Any questions/retorts will most likely be ones you have heard all before. Knowing that you will hear them, and having a good response ready, does wonders. Watch a few Aubrey presentations, read a few articles and responses here, and you will be able to field most questions just fine.

#5 eldar

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 06:06 PM

They need to mull over the idea that death is not desirable.

I think this is really a central culprit of the problem. Youg people especially, tend to think that it just does not concern them, thus it doesn't deserve even a thought. Planning for the next chance to get wasted though does deserve all the thoughts one has it seems [mellow]
The whole "you only live once" -attitude seems to be very prevalent amongst most of the students I've met.

I usually bring it up as it being something that will eventually happen, as people are working on it, but 'unfortunately not enough people care to ensure that it will happen sooner'. Then I drop it entirely, letting the other person take the direction they want.

This has actually been my approach, all I did more this time was to offer and provide some links that people could investigate themselves. Although it escapes me how someone could ignore Aubrey's points in his presentations, I am certain that in this case also, the attitude that I described above prevails and the subject gets pushed away and forgotten as hogwash and unintriguing.

Any questions/retorts will most likely be ones you have heard all before.

I wish there were questions, that would make it more worth it. All that I got was ridicule of the idea and one repeated argument which was that no-one can ever live more than 120 years.(or something similar)

Ofcourse it might be that I have had bad luck choosing people but nonetheless I personally do not feel like sharing the grand goal with people anymore. (That is unless they ask)

Then they'll put together the idea that they, too, can help speed the quest to find a cure for aging

I'm being a little pessimistic here and I emphasize the bad luck point, but I do not feel that majority of people would actually bother. It is much easier to say that there's nothing you could do and let the [airquote] others [/airquote] do all the difficult work, while continuing to party withouth worry yourself.

All of this is actually the very reason why I like this place so much, since it is the only place I know where people are actually concerned about getting these issues solved.

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#6 Athanasios

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 06:13 PM

I think this is really a central culprit of the problem. Youg people especially, tend to think that it just does not concern them, thus it doesn't deserve even a thought. Planning for the next chance to get wasted though does deserve all the thoughts one has it seems [mellow]
The whole "you only live once" -attitude seems to be very prevalent amongst most of the students I've met.

Yeah, that viewpoint is a very easy way to escape responsibility to chase shallow insatiable desires. As they get older, they will have other ways of doing it, either more complex or something with more social backing [wis] . The easiest thing to convince a group of is something that allows them a way to shirk responsibility. The agreement is basically not to persecute each other for this one 'out'.

How to convince someone to take responsibility within the small amount of exposure they will have to you is a mystery. Sometimes people are forced into situations where they have extended exposure to a person, this is when leading by example and pointing out inconsistencies may work.

#7 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 06:31 PM

I just try to present these views as common sense, and normal. So far, I haven't gotten much debate-- the whole escaping responsibility thing is for me touchy. I see everyone as hypocritical in some regards--with all the poverty in the world and suffering. Hard to prioritize where to place our efforts-- I'm hoping to get more time, so I can do more in the long run.

#8 sjayo

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:01 PM

Wing Girl -- you may want to watch the Charlie Rose show this Wednesday evening (the 28th of March). I believe the arguments you are looking for will be discussed there. By the way, the problem with what you are presenting may very well the phrase "radical life extension" -- perhaps you should think about replacing the word "life" with "health". Also, it might be a good idea to rethink the use of the word "radical" since I don't believe anyone can define that.
S. Jay Olshansky

#9 eldar

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:40 PM

By the way, the problem with what you are presenting may very well the phrase "radical life extension" -- perhaps you should think about replacing the word "life" with "health". Also, it might be a good idea to rethink the use of the word "radical" since I don't believe anyone can define that.

Well I tend to think that even though extending ones healthy lifespan and maximum lifespan go hand in hand, some people might not see it so and instead interpret it as only increasing the number of healthy years, while still dropping dead at 80 or so years. Which is why it is clearer to use life extension to get the point across correctly.

Regarding the "radical" word I don't really like it myself and in fact was being careful not use anything like that in my wording when discussing the idea. No idea why I used it here though [wis]

In any case this was done in finnish and the equivalent for "life extension" sounds really awkward even to me

But this is already a bit besides the point, I do not think that the actual wording will make that big of a difference.

#10 JohnDoe1234

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:57 PM

I myself have participated in several debates and discussions that have popped up between some of my classmates, and I haven't really encountered any resistance to the idea except that it might not even be possible (which is something I cannot effectively counter)... but over all, I am pleased that the idea is accepted fairly well among the 17-19 age range... I intentionally print off papers or bring books relevant to the subject to school and read while I can, it doubles as a better use of my time, and also as a conversation starter! So I have started a few that way... and they always seem to turn out well.

#11 OutOfThyme

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:59 PM

Yeah I'd have to agree. I think the whole life extension thing conjures up images in the public's mind of frozen cocooned bodies or immortalists running around shooting everyone up with elixirs of youth. Would be nice, but I'd try and euphemize it if I could.

Thanks for the Charlie Rose reference. I'm setting up the DVR to record it right now. I watched him do a fine job interviewing David Sinclair awhile back. The interview can still be found on Google Video. http://video.google....lair rose&hl=en

Edited by thymeless, 28 March 2007 - 12:33 AM.

#12 Aegist

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 12:47 AM

Another point, is to avoid groups. As long as one person is negative, then they will all be negative.

Only approach a single person at a time. (and even then it still isn't as simple as telling them, and them simply agreeing!)

#13 Karomesis

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 01:44 AM

You'll never win anyone over immediately, all ingrained ideas take time to dislodge. I mean, you cannot go to a Mormon and say "there was no Global Flood, but your scripture says there was" and expect them to start drinking coffee again.

indeed. It all starts with the seed of doubt, which once sown, is sure to germinate in the minds of those who pursue immortality.Which is actually pretty much everyone. nobody WANTS to die and be nothing, they want paradise; when they realize religious paradise is a pipe dream, rest assured they'll come around.

remember, we're not SELLING life extension, we're sowing doubt to the alternative. Who the hell wants to be old? anyone? what I do is tell people about the fascinating developments in the life sciences and how far we've come, slowly but surely they come around.

#14 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 12:13 AM

People don't want to be sold or prosyletized. They want to be lead! There will ALWAYS be a market for courage. Leadership is the most precious commodity we have. BE the person that is living forever with Freedom from dis-ease, poverty, limited thinking, tyranically governed spirituality, DO the things that person would do, and you will HAVE the results you desire. BE,DO, HAVE!

Enjoying the show x 1

#15 Karomesis

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 02:50 AM

People don't want to be sold or prosyletized. They want to be lead! There will ALWAYS be a market for courage. Leadership is the most precious commodity we have. BE the person that is living forever with Freedom from dis-ease, poverty, limited thinking, tyranically governed spirituality, DO the things that person would do, and you will HAVE the results you desire. BE,DO, HAVE!

well said Screamfiend [thumb]

I agree.

and I'd also like to congradulate you on using more LOUD WORDS than me. [lol] [tung]

#16 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 02:52 AM

Overacheiverism...

#17 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 02:59 AM

hah! I'm just pious for science-- would it not win over anyone if they knew they'd live longer and healthier?

#18 Aegist

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 03:04 AM

hah! I'm just pious for science-- would it not win over anyone if they knew they'd live longer and healthier?

The problem is not selling people the benefits of living a longer healthier life, it's trying to sell them the idea that it is possible.

people are resigned to the fact that it isn't.

#19 Karomesis

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 03:14 AM

people are resigned to the fact that it isn't.

kindof. their religious bullshit would have them believe that immortality is possible.....if only with a "holy book" and some incense. [lol]

we merely have to persuade them that their "afterlife" is a pipe dream and will never happen.

what's the alternative?

#20 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:06 AM

The alternative is Courage. When these cutting edge concepts become commonplace that limited life thinking will be the minority. Just go about your merry way of living long enough to live forever. We are pioneers to a new era. Pioneers. Think about that for a minute.

#21 bgwowk

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:14 AM

The problem is not selling people the benefits of living a longer healthier life, it's trying to sell them the idea that it is possible.

The most general argument is simply that we are machines made of atoms and molecules, and any machine can be maintained indefinitely by constant repair. Aubrey de Grey likes to use the analogy of a house, but there are natural examples too. There is the hydra, an organism that does not age and maintains itself indefinitely from an immortal line of stem cells. There are animal communities, such as our own species, that are defacto immortal because of immortal lines of germ cells. As Michael West likes to point out, look at any cell of your body and run time backward. That cell will be seen as part of a continuously living pool of protoplasm going back THREE BILLION YEARS. These are all proofs-of-concept that living systems can be maintained indefinitely.

That's the abstract case for the feasibility of biological immortality, but there is also a pragmatic case for the feasibility and importance of aging intervention. It is the duty of medicine to study and reverse all physical processes that make people unwell. Biological aging is a physical process that makes people unwell. Therefore medicine has a duty to treat and reverse the physical process of aging. The intrinsic feasibility of treatment is rooted in the intrinsic feasibility of intervening in any physical process with sufficiently advanced tools. It's so obvious that I cannot help but wonder whether skepticism about aging intervention is rooted in immaterialism, or anti-scientific views of reality.

Of course skepticism that the theoretical feasibility of aging intervention is relevant to anyone living today is harder to refute, and requires going into details about research now going on.

Edited by bgwowk, 29 March 2007 - 07:33 PM.

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#22 maestro949

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 08:03 AM

Well said bgwowk.

One mechanims that I use to get the point across is getting the individual to think outside their own chances of immortality first. They need to see that not only that it's clearly feasible, but an absolute certainty that humanity will someday fully reverse engineer the biological functionality that drives us at the atomic level. Even subatomic level.

Once you can get someone to accept that fully repairing biological systems is feasible at some future date, the next challenge is getting them to understand the concept of accelerating returns and emergent concepts, i.e. the exponential growth in knowledge and technological advancement. This is our generations only real hope of significant life extension.

If I can make the first two points I then work on encouraging people to take better care of themselves so they can have a chance at more significant technology that can afford them even more years of life. Adding 5 years to your life could actually add 10, 25 or 50. Nobody knows the exact returns on investment but it's certainly more than: adding 5 = adding 5.

#23 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 04:13 PM

It always amazes me that most people have never even set a goal. The thought of outliving the genetic limit is just too far, too amorphous. Its in the realm of fantasy to someone stuck in their own limited thinking. If they maintain a self-image of living 70 or 80 years with a fixed income retirement and shuffleboard all afternoon, how is Life extension a good thing? I don't even go there at first. I focus on the next 30 days, or 60, or 90. That puts their focus a bit further down the road. I get them to set a goal and follow through. This success breeds further success until the view to the future is possible. Then as more changes occur, the vision of the future becomes more focused further and further out.

#24 Shannon Vyff

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:06 PM

I personally don't think ending aging will be accomplished in my life time--I do my own best to bring it about (well I'm not a researcher) but I'm a 300 member, and I try to spread awareness of the possibilities. I would be nice to have aging ended, but as a backup, also because accidents could happen at any time, I'm a cryonicist.

I have friends who are very over-weight, it does not help them to lose weight, even having their doctor tell them they must. It all seems to come down to self comforting mechanisms people have, I'm just comforted by my chance of living longer--this makes it easy for me to have mint gum/tea etc. instead of a meal twice a day. I also like intellectual stimulation and feel I never have enough time to learn all I want to learn. I'm not sure how to inspire others to transfer some of their comforting behaviors that may be detrimental (even excessive alcohol/drugs) (or at an extreme various religions) to things that are known now to be more healthy--or give a reasonable chance at life extension.

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#25 Mind

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:33 PM

Wing_girl: I personally don't think ending aging will be accomplished in my life time

Personally, I think your odds of seeing the end of aging are very good, above 50%.

#26 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 06:48 PM

It's a mindset. It starts with asking ourselves, individually, "What is possible?" and more specifically, "What is possible for me?" The collective consciousness is bein raised incrementally with movements like The Secret and public speakers/authors who focus on development. Future projects, like commissioning artists, musicians, authors, poets, to compose works about Life Extension and inject them into popular culture will only serve to speed up the process. Attatching a profit system to the pruducts and services offered in the Anti Ageing arena will only serve to make their use more widespread. Think like a marketer and you begin to think like the market.

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#27 JonesGuy

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 07:35 PM

I guess the motivation to getting people to believe that it's possible is that they then will want it. The problem with convincing people that it's inevitable is that they'll stop striving for it.

#28 OutOfThyme

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 07:47 PM

I like Mind’s vantage point; we’ve got a 50/50 chance at a breakthrough that will revolutionize our way of life. Its realistic, generates hope and new possibilities without being overly pessimistic. Can’t beat that philosophy when you’re trying to change the world. :-)

Future generations will look back in puzzlement as to how our ancestors could’ve coped, dutifully marching toward finality. We've got a future worth fighting for. I get more inspired every day hearing about some new discovery of the day.

If we can survive “ourselves”, we’ll go on to great things...

Agree x 1

#29 screamfiend

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 07:48 PM

Supply and demand. Economics 101.

#30 maestro949

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Posted 01 April 2007 - 06:16 PM

The problem with convincing people that it's inevitable is that they'll stop striving for it.

Not if it's just out of reach due to the personal lifestyle choices one can make. Most people are convinced that it's impossible and have zero hope. That is a very difficult mindset to affect and IMO the most difficult hurdle to overcome when debating the topic.