The fate of the Health and/or Nootropics section?

Ok, admittedly I do not know much about the whole controversy seeing as how I generally do not frequent the Health area, but it seems to be an issue. There have been lots of posts on it lately (mainly here and here) and so I thought a poll might be in order to see what people think about it.

(also, by "seperate entity" above, I of course mean the "sink or swim" option of being on their own somewhere other than Imminst.org)

If you would like to say why you voted the way that you did, it might be helpful, as well as any other discussion on this issue.

Edited by liveforever22, 02 March 2006 - 10:42 PM.

I voted for the "More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only" option because I feel it might be important to keep it as a forum to "draw people into" the larger movement, and the more important life extension issues. Thus, keeping it as part of Imminst.org is important (IMO) to draw in people, and the more strict controls (required reading rules, moderation, etc.) could be an intermediate step before completely getting rid of it.

More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only


-Infernity

"More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only"

That sounds like what a bunch of liberal mofos would think of first.

It's going to come down to what leadership thinks about the section in the end. I get the feeling there is not a lot of love for the health section in general, it would have more users uninterested in the rest of imminst than other section of the forum. That of course leads into health forum users getting into other ideals of "immortality", and hopefully, vice versa - with people who are so future-minded and only caring about immortality, technologies that do not exist yet, etc, finding out what they can do for themselves right now.

I voted "More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only", as the ideals of imminst are very multi-faceted and closely related throughout the different forums, and it would be counterproductive to hyper-specialize the forums - especially on a different site. However, I would also vote "Make the entire Health forum a seperate entity", because there is now more thought being put forward as to legal ramifications of advice given on some health forums, specifically nootropics. I do know that is the nootropic forum is scoffed at, it will relocate, as has been mentioned

"More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only"

That sounds like what a bunch of liberal mofos would think of first.

I consider myself pretty moderate (at least in political terms). I think it would be best to have an intermediate step to completely getting rid of someone. I am completely for giving people the benefit of the doubt and every opportunity to turn things around before being "punished". (perhaps I am too forgiving?)

Edited by liveforever22, 02 March 2006 - 11:09 PM.

It's going to come down to what leadership thinks about the section in the end. I get the feeling there is not a lot of love for the health section in general, it would have more users uninterested in the rest of imminst than other section of the forum. That of course leads into health forum users getting into other ideals of "immortality", and hopefully, vice versa - with people who are so future-minded and only caring about immortality, technologies that do not exist yet, etc, finding out what they can do for themselves right now.

I voted "More restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) only", as the ideals of imminst are very multi-faceted and closely related throughout the different forums, and it would be counterproductive to hyper-specialize the forums - especially on a different site. However, I would also vote "Make the entire Health forum a seperate entity", because there is now more thought being put forward as to legal ramifications of advice given on some health forums, specifically nootropics. I do know that is the nootropic forum is scoffed at, it will relocate, as has been mentioned

When they say relocate, I am under the assumption it would be to a seperate website? How would that work exactly, would Imminst set it up, or they just would be deleted from Imminst, and could go do whatever they wanted?

When we say the nootropic section would be split off from imminst, that is what we mean. All the archives of old discussions would go to the new site.

I chose to leave it as is...except for newbies asking questions that have been asked a dozen or so times before...there should be a law about that! PLEASE READ, CHILDREN!!! Oh, and people with annoying names....like "dogbarf". I'm surprised Imminst leadership isn't worried about newcomers being turned off by cloaked miscreance like this. I think these two issues are the most apparent threats to the future of this forum. [See (2) at bottom for insinuation of responsibility for topic of next paragraph.]

Concerning LM, as I just popped over here from that thread (but only got halfway), I feel that everything he has contributed has been based on studies available to us all online and that anyone here would defer personal judgement for a moment, in light of the previous informational point, just because the wispy air of ~MD~ hovers over someone's reputation... well, tisk tisk! I've turned down MD prescriptions for anti-depressants because I KNEW my depressive symptoms were not *The Disease Known As Depression*...but was something else, and damn was I SURE *AND* GLAD that I didn't listen to their minutemade advice. If people don't have enough sense here to do some research then they deserve what they get...a most uneducated headache from too much choline or some slop like that. > Good thing for us is that we have a community full of people trying different dosages of dozens of supplements with hundreds of studies available to us. I'm glad we're here for eachother. As for "personal correspondance" with LM... [shrug]...no wait...that's shady even if there was a disclaimer.

A couple more points:
1) Adi...I'm so very glad you're interested in the Nootropics forum; how's the orange flavored fishoil coming along?
2) Why weren't these now seemingly important identification issues pursued prior to the inception of LifeMirage as an empowered member of Imminst.org???

Edited by liplex, 03 March 2006 - 05:37 AM.

I voted for making the nootropics forum a separate entity.

I am really quite fed up with this situation. It is obvious to me that most of ImmInst's nootropics enthusiasts either *don't get* or *don't care about* liability issues.

If ImmInst were to get shut down I suppose they would shrug their shoulders before heading off to a different site. As I have made clear in the past, my position is that the nootropics community needs to move on and start its own *separate and distinct* web presence. Now, certainly I am not advocating jetisoning it haphazardly - I am sure ImmInst will be generous in its assistance during the transition -- but the separation must take place.

I think my bold, underlined point should be addressed...

Obviously Lipex lessons have been learned (although many members of leadership have had concerns with the nootropics forum for many years). Perhaps our approval of LM as a candidate without proper verification is indicative of ImmInst's inherently trusting nature. Still though, what is your point? Are you looking for some one or some thing to place blame on?

It seems a funny wedge to separate the Nootropics forum from Imminst, especially as it's one created by the leadership's admitted "trusting nature".

I voted keep everything the same as now. I don't really feel there is much of a legal issue as long as it's pointed out that opinions expressed in the forum in no way reflect an endorsement by the Immortality Institute.

I don't really give a hoot about nootropics, but I am posting my experiences about Gerovital H3. Technically it's a mild MAOI so I guess that makes it a nootropic, but it's kind of in a class by itself. It's sort of a forgotten supplement and may have many benefits that could be helpful for people know about, or maybe not. That's important too. I think it belongs here, after all it is the original anti-aging drug.

liplex

It seems a funny wedge to separate the Nootropics forum from Imminst, especially as it's one created by the leadership's admitted "trusting nature".

If there is a "wedge" in the relationship, then it wasn't created by just this particular incident, but by numerous incidents over the past couple of years. Life Mirage is only the latest example of systemic...difficulties.... that seem to be inherent to the nootropics commuity.

I would completely understand if this mess turned out in favor of a structural revisionism that clarified and refocused the agenda of Imminst. It might actually be necessary.


DonSpanton

If there is a "wedge" in the relationship, then it wasn't created by just this particular incident, but by numerous incidents over the past couple of years.

My point precipitating this/your answer is that Imminst is responsible for creating this problem as their lax identification standards were essentially the first defense against this sort of "systemic difficulty". It's not a big deal to me it's just that, in my view, it was fully in your power to prevent. Why it's coming to the issue of removing the whole of Nootropics board smells a bit...Iraq-via-Osama to me.

Edited by liplex, 03 March 2006 - 06:17 AM.

What, pray tell, are the other "systemic difficulties...inherent to the nootropics community"? And don't tell me "Adam"...

Pray tell, my dear Watson... [lol]

Simple, Lipex -- commercial interests which lead to cantankerous interactions on the forum.

ooh, and don't forget under researched chemical compounds with questionable legal status that lead to liability issues.

Iam of the belief that life extension or deletion of death, can be obtained through the conscious use of chemicals, organic compounds and minerals.

It is also of my belief that Nootropics belongs in to the health forum and should not be separated.

I also believe that naivete it is not an excuse, no organization will take a leader with claims on expertise of an specific field and be so careless as not to verify his/her claims of expertise

also, [quote]What have we come to in this country when a people's traditions and personal beliefs are sacrificed for the sake of petty politics?

isn it petty politics what you are trying to implement here

[quote]ooh, and don't forget under researched chemical compounds with questionable legal status that lead to liability issues.

cryogenics is still considered an under researched field and its legal status is currently under question.

cryogenics is still considered an under researched field and its legal status is currently under question.

The key difference being, I think, that those who partake of nootropics can sue, and those partaking of cryogenics cannot.

ok...so "under researched chemical compounds with questionable legal status" are a liability if we talk amongst ourselves about them?

And wouldn't "cantankerous interactions" caused by *commercial interests* most easily be quelled by not letting *sponsors* participate *in* the forums or product-source links exist there? (PMing sources; having sponsors set up blogs for info/memberdiscounts/etc)

Whatever....I read some more of your posts on the topic and it seems to be the best thing.

I would be very interested in collating all the links to studies and articles into a library for research by say...paid members. I would, of course, have to be paid for such services. If not, well, give us all a month to copy/paste all we can off the forum before you shut it down. Just lock all actions and let us at it. A posted deadline would be very precious of you.

DON SPANTON, do you remember this:

Be polite when replying to others. .
Avoid using derogatory language.
Maintain a constructive attitude. 
Attack ideas and not people.

To anybody else that has doubts about the potential responsibility of IMMINST or risk of legal action, on regards to any issue discussed, let it be Health or Nootropics :


Disclaimer: ImmInst cannot be held responsible for problems associated with any ideas or suggestions made and found in the forums and/or in any correspondence in association with ImmInst. All recommendations for supplement intake, bodily enhancement and/or augmentation, etc. should be considered with caution. Individuals are advised to seek advice from a qualified physician before acting upon any recommendations.

I believe this is to be sufficient disclaimer, to separate legal responsibilities. There is no more to discuss.

Provided a dynamic and consistent policy of moderation is enforced, I view this as an opportunity to make Imminst the leading forum for noo's.

I have not been very active in the imminst forum for a while now, but I was not particularly surprised when I saw the whole scandal about LIfeMirage unfold. It is a real problem in virtual collaboration that identity can be so easily faked. The best way to counter this problem, I believe, is to not place the ultimate trust in individuals. But rather to place the trust in the shared knowledge of the group of contributors.

The fact that members of leadership can manipulate information provided by members without members being notified, enhances the problem of lightly placed trust in individuals. I have previously pointed out that problem, and suggested a possible solution. See: Censorship in moderation. ( I think the topic might have faded from interest because I was unable to use more time to argue the case, so I hope this might peek interest again ) I think wikipedia.org is a good example to the power of collaborative moderation of shared knowledge.

I don't think either the health or nootropics forums should be made separate entities, but I do think members should have the tools to opt out areas of the forum they are not interested in viewing. I suggested a possible solution to this problem. See: RSS feed of recent individual posts. Such filtering features could also be implemented directly on the "Active Topics" page on the website.

To clarify my position in the poll. I vote for more restrictions (updated rules, stricter moderation, etc.) combined with clearly visible disclosure of any moderation made. Along with the option for members to dispute the particular moderation and vote for a reversal. That vote should then be respected regardless of the opinion of leadership, unless the content is in direct violation of criminal law.

Provided a dynamic and consistent policy of moderation is enforced, I view this as an opportunity to make Imminst the leading forum for noo's.

To quote myself from the other thread:

I'm also against separation. For the following reasons that are partly already given by others, but to just present my view on it as complete as possible:

1.
It should indeed be embedded into an organisation with a broader view on LE issues. There are already fora that deal with nootropics in combination with recreational drug abuse I do not wish to be part of. LE should be the primary concern.

2.
There should be one or more knowledgeable forum members, compared to LM, but with a more balanced view so that the risks of using supplements will not be overlooked. This is more likely to be possible within a respectable organisation like imminst.

3.
Practically I already do not have the time to frequently visit one forum….

4.
The sound basis of imminst could produce the proper background for a sufficiently moderated forum, that is, with some improvements in selecting moderators and advisors....

5.
Overall I think imminst could be an independent platform for discussion since “it can hold up it’s own trousers”. Financially spoken I mean

The recent threats to the supplements forums and the handling of these threats by the imminst organisation is just the justification not to split up the supplement forum.
A good example of why the forums should stay embedded in a stable and sound organisation.

I would apply for moderatorship weren't the fact that I do not have a MD ..... [lol]

Edited by brainbox, 03 March 2006 - 10:44 AM.

Maybe we can get Dr. Sanjay Gupta from CNN to be a moderator (joking)

The recent threats to the supplements forums and the handling of these threats by the imminst organisation is just the justification not to split up the supplement forum.
A good example of why the forums should stay embedded in a stable and sound organisation.

I would apply for moderatorship weren't the fact that I do not have a MD .

No MD is required my friend, only some enthusiasm and the ability to commit a moderate amount of time to forum over sight. If you are seriously interested please let me know. The life of the nootropics community is going to depend on volunteers (it can't seriously expect individuals who aren't even interested in nootropics to shoulder the burden of moderation forever).

The first part of your statement is interesting because it illustrates nicely the difference in perspectives. Whereas your concern seems to be the ultimate well being of the nootropics/supplements fora, my concern focuses on the well being of ImmInst and life extension. Our priorities are different. IOW, remaining with ImmInst may or may not be good for the nootropics community, but for me this is of secondary importance compared to how ImmInst's well being is affected.

I echo Prometheus' opinion that ImmInst has the opportunity to become the leading fora for nootropics on the net. We are at a bit of a 'wild west' stage with it and that reflects the current state of the research in some respects as well as what is availble for public knowledge. I recommend against separating the forum unless there is some clear indication that it is necessary. If ImmInst shows due diligence that we are trying to evolve and are putting in controls which enhance productive discussion, it is unlikely IMO that the first action against ImmInst would pose an existential risk. Recognizing the seriousness of taking substances which alter brain chemistry while providing a scaffold for discussion which advocates such is a rather difficult line to walk.

Although I do not participate much in nootropics, I read and appreciate some of the discussions and I believe that there are many like me. Thus the fora is an asset to ImmInst, one that needs care, maintenance and a little polishing to prevent it becoming a thorn and for its own health and well-being.

I voted for better moderation and controls.