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Naturalistic Spirituality & Increasing Complexity


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#1 hughbristic

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 11:42 AM


I agree with him that integration of the sciences and spirituality needs to take place


Hi Peter,

I'm curious. What do you mean by this? How do you define spirituality? Do you see something purposive or directed in the increase in complexity in the universe? Is that what you are talking about, or is it something more traditionally "spiritual"?

I guess I've always been uncomfortable with the term spirituality, since I don't believe in spirits. Do you? Of course, I do think it is important to mental health and stability to engage oneself in a meaningful way with the world, to make ethical choices and emotional attachments, to strive to know the universe in deeper and more useful ways--but spirituality? What is that?

A friendly inquiry,
Hugh

#2 Discarnate

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 12:15 PM

Hugh -

My unsolicited 2c-

I'm agnostic in the strictest sense of the word - I have no knowledge of God. I can neither prove, nor disprove, the existance of such a being. Ditto ghosts, souls, etc. Nonfalsifiable is just that - you can't prove it's wrong.

Is there more out there than what we currently understand? Hell yeah. Does it match up with the cultural beliefs and such we've had passed on to us (the aforementioned God/ghost/soul/etc)? Dunno - could be, could be otherwise.

If you ever come across solid proof one way or the other, please let me know. I'm very curious about it all!

Sincerely,
-John

#3 hughbristic

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:05 PM

John,

Thanks for the response (unsolicited though it may have been). I am posting below a piece by Anthony Flew concerning John Wisdom's parable of the gardener. I have always found it a rather convincing argument that religious claims are really, in the final analysis, nonsensical--devoid of meaning. Do I believe in God? I don't know what you mean. I don't think YOU know what you mean. Some argue that because of this, the best thing to say is that you are agnostic. While, perhaps technically true, I think it gives the wrong impression. I do not say I am agnostic about Regextipation, whose definition is "that which seeks the warmth in the space of a preordained state, unreserved in its expanse of munificence." Instead, I say, "What nonsense!" I call myself an atheist, because I do not doubt that such talk is meaningless.

Hugh


Theology and Falsification

The following excerpt was published in Reason and Responsibility (1968).
by Antony Flew

Let us begin with a parable. It is a parable developed from a tale told by John Wisdom in his haunting and revolutionary article "Gods."[1] Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, "Some gardener must tend this plot." The other disagrees, "There is no gardener." So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. "But perhaps he is an invisible gardener." So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. "But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves." At last the Sceptic despairs, "But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?"

In this parable we can see how what starts as an assertion, that something exist or that there is some analogy between certain complexes of phenomena, may be reduced step by step to an altogether different status, to an expression perhaps of a "picture preference."[2] The Sceptic says there is no gardener. The Believer says there is a gardener (but invisible, etc.). One man talks about sexual behavior. Another man prefers to talk of Aphrodite (but knows that there is not really a superhuman person additional to, and somehow responsible for, all sexual phenomena).[3] The process of qualification may be checked at any point before the original assertion is completely withdrawn and something of that first assertion will remain (Tautology). Mr. Wells' invisible man could not, admittedly, be seen, but in all other respects he was a man like the rest of us. But though the process of qualification may be and of course usually is, checked in time, it is not always judicially so halted. Someone may dissipate his assertion completely without noticing that he has done so. A fine brash hypothesis may thus be killed by inches, the death by a thousand qualifications.

And in this, it seems to me, lies the peculiar danger, the endemic evil, of theological utterance. Take such utterances as "God has a plan," "God created the world," "God loves us as a father loves his children." They look at first sight very much like assertions, vast cosmological assertions. Of course, this is no sure sign that they either are, or are intended to be, assertions. But let us confine ourselves to the cases where those who utter such sentences intended them to express assertions. (Merely remarking parenthetically that those who intend or interpret such utterances as crypto-commands, expressions of wishes, disguised ejaculations, concealed ethics, or as anything else but assertions, are unlikely to succeed in making them either properly orthodox or practically effective).

Now to assert that such and such is the case is necessarily equivalent to denying that such and such is not the case.[4] Suppose then that we are in doubt as to what someone who gives vent to an utterance is asserting, or suppose that, more radically, we are sceptical as to whether he is really asserting anything at all, one way of trying to understand (or perhaps to expose) his utterance is to attempt to find what he would regard as counting against, or as being incompatible with, its truth. For if the utterance is indeed an assertion, it will necessarily be equivalent to a denial of the negation of the assertion. And anything which would count against the assertion, or which would induce the speaker to withdraw it and to admit that it had been mistaken, must be part of (or the whole of) the meaning of the negation of that assertion. And to know the meaning of the negation of an assertion, is as near as makes no matter, to know the meaning of that assertion.[5] And if there is nothing which a putative assertion denies then there is nothing which it asserts either: and so it is not really an assertion. When the Sceptic in the parable asked the Believer, "Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?" he was suggesting that the Believer's earlier statement had been so eroded by qualification that it was no longer an assertion at all.

Now it often seems to people who are not religious as if there was no conceivable event or series of events the occurrence of which would be admitted by sophisticated religious people to be a sufficient reason for conceding "there wasn't a God after all" or "God does not really love us then." Someone tells us that God loves us as a father loves his children. We are reassured. But then we see a child dying of inoperable cancer of the throat. His earthly father is driven frantic in his efforts to help, but his Heavenly Father reveals no obvious sign of concern. Some qualification is made — God's love is "not merely human love" or it is "an inscrutable love," perhaps — and we realize that such suffering are quite compatible with the truth of the assertion that "God loves us as a father (but of course…)." We are reassured again. But then perhaps we ask: what is this assurance of God's (appropriately qualified) love worth, what is this apparent guarantee really a guarantee against? Just what would have to happen not merely (morally and wrongly) to tempt but also (logically and rightly) to entitle us to say "God does not love us" or even "God does not exist"? I therefore put to the succeeding symposiasts the simple central questions, "What would have to occur or to have occurred to constitute for you a disproof of the love of, or the existence of, God?"

Notes

1
P.A.S., 1944-5, reprinted as Ch. X of Logic and Language, Vol. I (Blackwell, 1951), and in his Philosophy and Psychoanalysis (Blackwell, 1953).

2
Cf. J. Wisdom, "Other Minds," Mind, 1940; reprinted in his Other Minds (Blackwell, 1952).

3
Cf. Lucretius, De Rerum Natura, II, 655-60.

4
For those who prefer symbolism: p = ~ ~ p.

5
For by simply negating ~ p we get p: = ~ ~ p = p.

Edited by hughbristic, 08 July 2003 - 03:19 PM.


#4 DJS

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:38 PM

Hugh,

I think I have views very similar to yours. However, I consider myself agnostic. [Edit: My position has shifted slightly, I now consider myself an atheist.] [edit: nope, I'm now back to being an agnostic -- I think its going to stay this way [lol] ]

If the question were specifically, "do you believe any of the classic monotheist religions of the world are possible?", I would answer a definite no. I do not think any of them are credible.

A care, loving God is a leap of faith that people have taken for millenia to lessen the fear of the unknown/ give meaning to life. The kid with the throat cancer -- the devil did it of course!! [B)] There are different mechanisms within every religion to explain the anomolies. This doesn't mean that these mechanisms are supported by the laws of science.

All of this said, I believe that there has to be a meaning to it all. Existence, consciousness, intelligence...the human mind begs for meaning.

Maybe God is a computer. A cold, hard calculating computer. Maybe he doesn't interfere in our lives for the same reason that we wouldn't care to interfere with an ant colony in our back yard. It would be a waste time. The ants are insignificant, they can offer us nothing.

So basically, I do not believe in a loving God, but there is still the possibility of an omnipotent being responsible for creating what we refer to as existence.

Edited by DonSpanton, 30 March 2005 - 12:41 AM.


#5 hughbristic

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 07:05 PM

Thanks for your perspective.

Existence, consciousness, intelligence...the human mind begs for meaning.

...

So basically, I do not believe in a loving God, but there is still the possibility of an omnipotent being responsible for creating what we refer to as existence.


Human beings have evolved to ascribe intentionality to things where it is not always appropriate. Therefore, there is nothing more natural than for our mind to "beg for meaning." Fortunately, we have also evolved a virtual machine that allows us to abstract out the relevant features of our environment and reason about them. My virtual machine reasons that appeals to design or to first causes are not really satisfactory "explanations." They are unparsimonious and beg the question of what caused the causer.

Anything is "possible" (or perhaps I should modify that to say that anything that can be stated as the value of a bound variable is possible), but not everything is equally probable.

Respectfully,
Hugh

#6 DJS

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:40 PM

Just to follow up this point a little...

Strong agnostics and atheists are very similar in their world view. This is because even if the kind of God I am refering to above does exist, it would have no compassion for us and it would not interfere. Therefore, as you argued above... if God never reveals its presence, then God is "as good as not there". I am, in effect, viewing the world as if there were no God, because even if there is one, what good is it to me?

I am simply questioning the finality of your belief structure. And yes, atheism is a belief.

Humankind is advancing at a rapid clip. Eventually, everything we are discussion here at ImmInst may come to fruition. But what's the point? To have more knowledge, faster computing power, expanded physical capabilities? Yeah, so what? What is the reason for this advancement? Where is it taking us? I don't know. And that is why I am agnostic. Because with all of the deep discussions and intellectual brewhahas I still, simply, don't, know.

And please don't take offense at this, but atheists are guilty of having beliefs just like monotheists. The only way you could convert me to atheism is to say, "ok, here is this mathematical equation, here are some laws of physics, combine them together and there is your explaination for the creation of existence. Noone has done this yet, I am still waiting...

Edited by DonSpanton, 11 April 2004 - 07:19 AM.


#7 ocsrazor

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:46 PM

Quick Reply Hugh,

Spirituality for me doesn't mean supernatural, that is a null word, there is nothing outside of nature. There is some force in the universe that is driving systems towards higher order complexity. For me there is a deep purpose to life and our ancestors (and even many people today) viewed that force as a human-like god, much like even more ancient cultures saw nautral forces such as the weather as gods. Humanity continually produces a higher resolution picture of what reality is really like. My comment about the merger of science and spirituality has more to do with overthrowing both the Newtonian paradigm of a static universe and the quantum/Darwinian paradigm of a universe ruled by random events, and replacing it with one based in general systems, complexity, and information theory that shows how purpose arises from more simple systems. The search for deep purpose found in old spiritualities must be fused to the scientific search for absolute truth.

While I despise the twisted organizations of power and control that have resulted from their efforts, the original mystics of the world's religions have had many interesting philosophical insights that have produced a great deal of valuable information for mankind.

Best,
Peter

Best,
Peter

#8 DJS

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:51 PM

There is some force in the universe that is driving systems towards higher order complexity.  For me there is a deep purpose to life


Yes.

#9 hughbristic

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 09:58 PM

Spirituality for me doesn't mean supernatural, that is a null word, there is nothing outside of nature.  There is some force in the universe that is driving systems towards higher order complexity.  For me there is a deep purpose to life and our ancestors (and even many people today) viewed that force as a human-like god, much like even more ancient cultures saw nautral forces such as the weather as gods.  Humanity continually produces a higher resolution picture of what reality is really like.  My comment about the merger of science and spirituality has more to do with overthrowing both the Newtonian paradigm of a static universe and the quantum/Darwinian paradigm of a universe ruled by random events, and replacing it with one based in general systems, complexity, and information theory that shows how purpose arises from more simple systems.


Peter,

That is what I thought you meant. Very intriguing ideas and I appreciate your commitment to naturalism. I got some of what you are saying out of John Smart's talk at TV03.

I think we need to be very careful about anthropomorphizing the universe though. I guess I'm still not too comfortable with the idea that words like pupose can be used in a scientific context (aside from some trivial uses). Even if you found some consistent relationship between, say, entropy and complexity and intelligence, what would that tell you about purpose? Seems to me that it borders on being a category mistake of the "is thus ought" kind. That "force in the universe driving systems towards higher order complexity" may just be the laws of physics. A force forcing the force, seems redundant, though I supect what you mean is more subtle.

Still, I find this angle to be novel and fascinating and wonder if you might recommend some literature that addresses these issues in terms someone not too versed in the sciences could follow. I know you are a busy person, and I'd like to learn more about this without wasting your valuable time.

Hugh

P.S. I'll try to write a bit more as I have time.

#10 ocsrazor

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 02:58 AM

Hi Hugh,

Anthropomorphizing is all just a semantics game to me ;^) God, universal purpose, the increase in complexity with time - just different ways of seeing the same thing with varying degrees of resolution and with particular reference to whatever intellectual paradigm your culture is operating under. There is a definite direction of development towards increased complexity in all systems in the universe. As John Smart pointed out, in the same way the purpose of seed is to form a tree, the purpose of the universe seems to be to get more complex and move towards higher degrees of slef reference. The search for the law of self-organizing systems is sometimes referred to as the search for the 4th law of thermodynamics, and I often put it in terms of a law of physics when talking about it.

Literature suggestions:

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin
-The Phenomenon of Man

Tom Stonier
-Information and the Internal Structure of the Universe
-Beyond Information
-Information and Meaning

Stuart Kauffman
-Origins of Order
-At Home in the Universe
-Investigations

Lee Smolin
-Life of the Cosmos

Robert Wright
-Nonzero

Werner Lowenstein
-Touchstone of Life

That should get you started, let me know if you need additional suggestions.

Best
Peter

#11 the bricoleur

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 09:55 AM

What a wonderful thread this has turned into!!

Re Agnosticism and Atheism

I was under the impression, from reading Thomas Huxley’s Agnosticism in “Christianity and Agnosticism”, that agnosticism is not a position per se but rather a method. So in this sense is it not feasible for ones agnosticism to lead to their atheism, thereby being both agnostic and atheist?

Re spirituality

I must admit to really warming to the ideas about spirituality that Peter has offered. I myself, in my conversations with a priest friend, for the sake of clarity in these discussions refer to :choke choke: my god :choke choke: as the organising principle of the universe, a thing not known, but a process of knowing. There is a sense in which consciousness reflect the universes own ability to learn and solve problems - organise itself in escalating orders of feedback (the first organising principle) and complexity.

In considering matter such as spirituality I have found utility in differentiating between belief and experience. Focusing on experience then… at the heart of spirituality is a "feeling", a feeling of what it is like to be connected to something bigger than your illusory self - what the philosopher Schleiermacher called "a sense and taste for the infinite", a taste for God, a taste for the interconnectedness of things, a taste for being in love with life and the world, etc. Before talking of belief, it is useful to consider that the experience does not point to some objective truth. But if we are to make claims that it does in fact point to some objective truth, then we are left having to accept them on belief and/or faith.

So my point really is that, like Peter, I do not think that spirituality has anything to do with the supernatural (be it souls, ghosts, gods, devils or demons, telepathy, etc.) and that those who do are merely hijacking a powerful emotional experience as evidence for whatever phenomena they are currently investing belief in.

But then really, what point does being ‘spiritual’ play in our lives? Peter?

take care and control
the bricoleur

#12 hughbristic

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 11:16 AM

Peter,

Thanks for the literature suggestions. I have been meaning to read de Chardin for a while. I've got a full plate of reading ahead of me. In the meantime...

Anthropomorphizing is all just a semantics game to me ;^) God, universal purpose, the increase in complexity with time - just different ways of seeing the same thing with varying degrees of resolution and with particular reference to whatever intellectual paradigm your culture is operating under.  There is a definite direction of development towards increased complexity in all systems in the universe.  As John Smart pointed out, in the same way the purpose of seed is to form a tree, the purpose of the universe seems to be to get more complex and move towards higher degrees of slef reference.  The search for the law of self-organizing systems is sometimes referred to as the search for the 4th law of thermodynamics, and I often put it in terms of a law of physics when talking about it.


I guess there is a semantics issue around the word purpose. While it may be suggestive (perhaps even inspiring) to think about the fact that the universe moves "towards higher degrees of self-reference," what does that tell us about how we should be? We have the perception of free will, which implies the question "What to do?" Statements of fact about the nature of the universe, whether it be a slow slide into chaos or a progression towards increasing complexity and intelligence, do not seem to address this sense of the word purpose. Of course, perhaps this sense of the word purpose doesn't make much sense anyway considering the illusory nature of free will.

I'm confusing myself. Better stop. ;-)

One last thing. Can you suggest a book that is critical of the perspective put forward by the authors in the previous list. It helps me to put things in perspective to see the issues debated.

Thanks,
Hugh

#13 ocsrazor

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 04:41 PM

Hi Gang,

The bricoleur - Welcome, I haven't seen you around the board before. For myself spirituality is about the search - keeping the big questions in mind in everything I do. Where religious people have god, I have these questions.

Why are we here?
What is the Universe?
What is Life?
Where are we going in the future?
What does it all mean?

I don't think we can possibly answer these now, but I think part of living a truly great life is seeking the answers.

For my own personal development - I have gone from being brought up in a Christian sect, to being a total aetheist, to where I am now which is probably closest to agnosticism. At this point I'm completely without dogma, and finding myself often dropping into the perspectives of others and trying to comprehend their worldview (their umwelt). There is valuable information in many systems of thought, but sorting the wheat from the chaff can be time consuming.

Hugh - The fact the universe continues to create higher and higher degrees of connection and information density, encourages me to do the same thing. Integration, synthesis, creation of new information and new experience, deeper connections between people and information and systems, and creation of greater levels of human happiness are the prime goals of my way of viewing the world.

On free will, I tend to think that we have the same type of free will that actors in any evolutionary system have, i.e. we can move within a given state space, but the paths of least resistance and greatest payoff tend to draw more actors toward them. We have the choice to follow those paths or not, but statistically most of the actors are going to be drawn to them. The interesting thing about humans is that we can choose to modify our own state spaces, and increasingly so over the history of our species.

Best,
Peter

#14 hughbristic

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 05:30 PM

The fact the universe continues to create higher and higher degrees of connection and information density, encourages me to do the same thing. Integration, synthesis, creation of new information and new experience, deeper connections between people and information and systems, and creation of greater levels of human happiness are the prime goals of my way of viewing the world.


Sounds good to me. I'd even say those goals are quite similar to my own. While the seeming* higher degrees of connection and information density may inspire me to explore that phenomenon more deeply and the reasons for it, I remain unconvinced at this point that it gives any sort of sanction for the existential choices that I make about how I choose to live my life. Actually, I don't even know what could possibly count as sanction--again making wonder just what I am talking about here!

On free will, I tend to think that we have the same type of free will that actors in any evolutionary system have, i.e. we can move within a given state space, but the paths of least resistance and greatest payoff tend to draw more actors toward them.  We have the choice to follow those paths or not, but statistically most of the actors are going to be drawn to them. The interesting thing about humans is that we can choose to modify our own state spaces, and increasingly so over the history of our species.


Dunno about that. I am inclined from what I have read of popular neuroscience and philosophy of mind to see the perception of choice as being a retroactive ascribing of intentionality by a part of the mind. Something to do with the evolutionary advantage of being able to predict the behavior of others and applying this process to our own internal workings. I forget where I encountered that idea, but I doubt it is novel to someone with your background (though it may be unrecognizable from my sloppy layman's description).

Respectfully,
Hugh

P.S. Any suggestions on books offering criticisms of your perspective?

*I say seeming, because I lack the background in information systems theory to evaluate the truth of that statement.

#15 ocsrazor

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 06:04 PM

Hi Hugh,

I just to try to look at people who I admire throughout history and I observe systems that are capable of increasing their own information density. For me its not about sanction, but trying to find out what makes things "great" and define that for myself. I think every individual needs to come to their own realization of what they are doing here. Looking around the universe, our world, our society, etc. is the only way we can figure that out. One of my biggest problems with religions or dogmas, is that they prevent people from looking. An effective life philosophy should provide a framework for search, but shouldn't limit it.

Intentionality and free will are always tough concepts to deal with, but I think of it as the number of degrees of freedom that an indiviual actor has in a given state space. I don't buy the retroactive assmebly of intentionality argument, this ignores the emergent nature of conciousness.

Probably Wilber would be one of the few critics of complexity and emergence as explanatory of the nature of the universe. But as I mentioned in the Wilber topic, his understanding of these subjects is pretty poor. I don't think I have seen anything approaching an effective criticism of systems perspective of the universe - but I would be very interested in reading anything if you happen to find it. Part of that is because this is still a theoretical science and there are few philosophers with the background to think about these issues deeply.

Best,
Peter

#16 ocsrazor

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 12:03 PM

Hi Hugh,

After thinking about it further I went back to my notes on Nonzero by Robert Wright. In the first chapter he mentions the historians and philosophers who have attacked the idea that culture evolves and that history has directionality. This is a hard position to defend but according to Wright those who have made an attempt are:

Franz Boas
Isaiah Berlin - Historical lnevitability
Karl Popper - The Poverty of Historicism

I haven't read these works, but they may be the closest thing to the criticism you are looking for.

Best,
Peter

#17 Lazarus Long

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 12:41 PM

I think starting with Popper is preferrable but to each their own. His relationship to so much of what we are talking about is important enough to make significant mention of him and raise some of the issues he does. He apparantly influenced Tippler and may have also influenced de Chardin.

Popper homepage
http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tkpw/

Synopsis of history and philosophy
http://plato.stanfor...entries/popper/

The Problem of Induction, by Sir Karl Popper
Popper has argued (I think successfully) that a scientific idea can never be proven true, because because no matter how many observations seem to agree with it ...
Category:: Top/Society/Philosophy/Philosophy of Logic/Problem of Induction
http://dieoff.org/page126.htm

Extracts from "The Poverty of Historicism" by Karl Raimund Popper ...
... Melbourne, Australia. Extracts from "The Poverty of Historicism"
by Karl Raimund Popper (Originally published in book form 1957). ...
http://lachlan.blueh...istoricism.html

#18 hughbristic

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 10:22 PM

Strong agnostics and atheists are very similar in their world view.  This is because even if the kind of God I am refering to above does exist, it would have no compassion for us and it would not interfere.  Therefore, as you argued above... if God never reveals its presence, then God is "as good as not there".  I am, in effect, viewing the world as if there were no God, because even if there is one, what good is it to me?


Its not really that if God never reveals his presence, that he is "as good as not there," it is that if there is no way that bounds can be placed on the word God--if no conditions can be set which would be indicative of its truth or falsehood--then the word is meaningless.

I am simply questioning the finality of your belief structure.  And yes, atheism is a belief.


None of my beliefs are final. Yes, atheism is a belief as is agnosticism as is theism. What is your point? Just because people believe different things doesn't make them all equally true.

Humankind is advancing at a rapid clip.  Eventually, everything we are discussion here at ImmInst may come to fruition.  But what's the point?  To have more knowledge, faster computing power, expanded physical capabilities?  Yeah, so what?  What is the reason for this advancement?  Where is it taking us?  I don't know.  And that is why I am agnostic.  Because with all of the deep discussions and intellectual brewhahas I still, simply, don't, know.


The universe just is. If it was designed or if there is a purpose to it (whatever that means) then the nature of the design and purpose would have to be more clearly elucidated than it has been thus far for me to believe it. Suppose the universe does produce greater and greater degrees of complexity and intelligence. Neat idea, but does that mean it was created by God? What would that add to the explanatory potential of the idea? How could it be tested? Answer that in a clear way and we have a starting point for dialogue.

And please don't take offense at this, but atheists are guilty of having beliefs just like monotheists.  The only way you could convert me to atheism is to say, "ok, here is this mathematical equation, here are some laws of physics, combine them together and there is your explaination for the creation of existence.  Noone has done this yet, I am still waiting...


No offense taken. I hope you feel likewise.

While anything is possible, I don't believe in hypotheses until they are operationalizable and evidence indicates they are true. The reason I don't say I am agnostic about God is the same reason I don't say I am agnostic about fairies or juhurdigallinoggawhangle. I really don't mean to be insulting or to cast aspersions, but I honestly can't help but wonder what motivates people to bend over backwards to give belief in God the benefit of the doubt, when they are obviously not so timid in disavowing other unproven and/or unprovable ideas.

Respectfully,
Hugh

#19 Lothar

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 12:49 AM

Oh, that's really funny! Everything started with Ken Wilber and now we have landed at Sir Karl Popper!?? What a journey through the intellectual spaces.

Perhaps we're going back to the roots, at least to the roots of Popper, and regard some thoughts of Bertrand Russell. In the definition Russell had put the term 'atheism' (in 'Why I'm not a Christian') it means an attitude of DENYING the existence of God. As a mathematician and first class logical thinker he came to the conclusion that for logical(!) reasons it is impossible to PROOF that God does not exist. Therefore, being a rationalist, you can only take the agnostic attitude, what means: may be he exists, may be not - it's not to decide. This was my point of view being 17 or 18. Now I'm 42 and just in the last years I have realized that agnosticism, which on the surface appears a little bit weak or indifferent, is in fact the more radical point of view, because it makes you free from that what you want to criticize. The atheist is always fighting against religion but he never gets free of it - it's some kind of a 'negative binding' and you could in fact call it something like a belief. (But this goes a little bit too far, in my opinion.) May be you have rational reasons for such a fight, personal reasons or cultural reasons, because you are living in a country with strong roots of traditional (christian) religiousness, but in my view such a battle has been won long time ago, perhaps already in the 19th century, at least in the western world and now we have 2003. (The islamic fundamentalism would be another topic.)

Therefore discussions with people like Ken Wilber are the more interesting ones for me because they start from the modern world here and now and represent very different views of religiousness or 'spirituality' which normally come from eastern traditions where no monotheistic concepts and personal images of God do exist. And at least they are trying to connect modern rationality and science with religious questions to build up a new synthesis. Whether they can have success or not - that's another problem I have discussed in my first contribution in the Wilber-thread.

'God' in the eastern tradition means not an omnipotent person but a quality of experience - therefore all kinds of connections to psychological aspects and theories which can be examined by rational ways, techniques and methods. No God - but 'godliness', as a quality or an adjective or an (super-)attribute. I hope you understand the fundamental difference to our western traditions, because it would be difficult for me even to explain it in my own language. Now, what kind of experience that should be? The mystics tell stories where they compare it with falling very deep in love - but even a thousand times more beautiful and intensive. 'Orgasm with existence' and not 'falling' but rising in love... - metaphors like that and nothing to believe in blindly but to discover by means of inner methods of self exploring, meditation and so on. If you have fallen in love only once in your life you KNOW that love is real - it's nothing to simple believe in without a proof etc. So 'God' in this perspective would be 'just' the ultimate increase of the love experience and would be as real as love is real. Erich Fromm, I mentioned shortly ago, sees the word 'God' only as a historic and poetic symbol for the qualities of truth, justice and love. You can deny all the religious traditions and the expression ('God') because of all kind of common or past misunderstandings but denying these possible qualities of individual or collective life would be rather silly. May be this is a possible distinction also for the difference between religion and spirituality: the first one means the organised traditions, churches and so on, the last one the deeper qualities of experience regardless of the institutional and dogmatic forms. The search for answers for these existential questions, Peter has mentioned above, would belong to the spiritual area, because normally religious traditions don't allow questions but give you a lot of 'answers'...

Very interesting question to me now what the exact connection between such a godlilike experience and the concept of 'physical immortality' will be, but I'm always saying that FIRST of all there comes the quality of life - and THEN the prolonging of it! (A real mystic of course would say the wish to prolong life comes ONLY because the individuals life is not full of love, joy and truth but as a real mystic has an ultimate level of comparison, in my opinion this is nothing to be bothered very much... ;-) )

@ The Bricoleur: We have pointed out some similar aspects about the relevance of experience. I'm sorry, but I've written the text above mainly before I read your contribution, so I could not refer to. Normal materialistic people tend to some reductionism by interpretating 'experience' as some simple epiphenomenon of neurobiological structures. A more sophisticated view is speaking about 'emergence' but what does this term REALLY imply for all kinds of questions of self consciousness (besides the fact that laws of psychology and so on cannot be simply derived from physical or biological laws)?? The experience does not refer to things in the outer world, you have written, but what do the terms 'in' and 'out' mean any longer, if the experience is just transcending such classifications and inner borders?? This has also something to do with the long tradition in the history of sciences of western cartesian dualism where there had been build up borders between different academic fields like the natural vers. the social sciences etc.

If I've understood Ken Wilber rightly the kind of experience you have mentioned would be only the pre-rational one which in fact is regarded as a kind of pathology because pure emotions are mixed up with real facts in the outer world. But what about the TRANSrational experience where the critical self reflection is still intact!?? Or let me put it in another more principle way: what kind of reality status do the phenomenons of consciousness have in general??

At the end just some small anecdote, Bertrand Russell told in his autobiography or something like that. He came back to England from a journey and the customs officer at the border had to fill out some papers. 'What religion?' he asked and Russell answered: 'Oh, I'm agnostic.' 'Hm', replied the man, 'never heard of, but - after all - we're all believing in the same God.' Russell was very amused.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany!
Lothar
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'Your dreams are made - inside the love parade' (MADONNA, 'Dear Jessie', 1988)

#20 kevin

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 04:07 AM

I have often heard that 'feeling true love' will wipe away any doubts that god exists. Obviously, judging from the existence of married athiests this is not totally true. There is a more rational explanation for the existence of love, and indeed all of human emotion, the biochemical and neurological basis of which is becoming more and more clear. It is an accepted fact that evolution exists and that any characteristic that makes an individual more fit will be passed on to future generations.

Evolution has given rise to emotions as a characteristic that gives an individual evolutionary advantages. Being able to communicate emotionally can form a non-verbal framework for communicating between individuals and, universally, between species. There is obviously a 'fitness' component to being able to express emotionally. In addition it is generally accepted that the more evolved the organism, the wider the range of emotional expression, with humans showing the greatest array, that we are aware of, in the world.

It might be said then, that the 'self-organizing principle', acting through evolution, has given rise to an ever increasing range of emotional expression. I wonder if, as we transition past our biological limitations into a new self-organizing freedom, that our emotions might be the only aspect of our past that remains, and that the beings we become may feel subtleties and nuances of emotional expression that we are but crude primaries of. Are the characteristics of emotion and empathy necessary elements of a complex-organized organism? If we suddenly lost the ability to feel through some mutation, could we as a species survive... or would we eat each other for food? I think that love, and empathy, being more conducive to survival, are basic to continuing evolution into a SUCCESSFUL higher life form.

Perhaps 'god' (self-organizing principle) is 'love'.. after all...

Edited by kperrott, 11 July 2003 - 04:10 AM.


#21 ocsrazor

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 05:11 AM

Hi Gang,

Lothar - Agreed on atheism, it represents an extreme position and is therefore a dogma. Uberpowerful beings running around the universe changing the course of human destiny, however distasteful to a materialist, is still in the realm of possibility ;^) Given my perspective on all systems in the universe, this goes deeply against my intuition, but if we are inside a system created by such beings it would be impossible for us to detect the mark of design, exactly because we are inside the system. Godel, Turing, and Popper came to similar conclusions. (btw as you can tell from this paragraph I can't figure out how to make an umlaut on my keyboard)

The direction Wilber is going is interesting, I just find him to be a hack, nothing really interesting in his writing. I think we agree on this.

The bit about truth, justice, love, god being the same thing is something I picked up from game theory and these concepts have struck me as an expression of the deep force for self organization - I will add Fromm to my reading list. Wright's Nonzero is an eloquent work on how this principle works in culture (why ecologies and economies form non-zero-sum structures and how this drives complexity).

As you mention religion tends to give defined answers, but I find it interesting that the gifted mystics who are the genesis of most religions always speak in metaphor. By doing this they encourage people to seek their own truth - just the act of seeking creates more fulfilled individuals. It is unfortunate that shortly after the mystics are gone, people try to interpret their words literally.

When you ask "what is emergence?" and "what kind of reality status do the phenomenons of consciousness have in general?" you have hit on a set of ideas that I have been playing with recently. As you mention emergence is simply properties of highly complex systems that can't be predicted from their individual parts. Conciousness is an emergent property of the incredible degree of self reference that you find in a human brain. The characteristics of this emergent property are such that conciousness reaches out to the surrounding environment and integrates it as well creating further emergent properties. (see Andy Clark's books for the best explanation of this phenomenon) The mind is not contained to the brain, but includes all the pieces of our environment that we use to process information. In reference to transrationality and individuality - at every level of increasing complexity and emergence, lower levels do not lose their structure, but they do combine to make new ones. My point with all this being, conciousness is an organizer of reality, that is one of its emergent properties, and another is that it allows nonmaterial connections between material objects. But... because we ARE conciousness, we ARE this level of complexity, it may be impossible for us to understand concousness fully. It has crossed my mind that something akin to Godel's incompleteness theorem may be at work here, and it may require superhuman intelligence (or whatever the next level up in complexity is) to really understand human conciousness.

Peter

#22 hughbristic

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 12:29 PM

Agreed on atheism, it represents an extreme position and is therefore a dogma.


Is saying "I don't believe in the god Zeus" an extreme position? Does it give the right flavor to say that one is agnostic about the god Zeus? We don't "know" anything with 100% certainty, but we aren't usually in the habit of allowing that to prevent us from making probability judgements.

If I remember correctly, while Russell did call himself an agnostic for technical reasons, he worried that this did not convey the proper sense of what he believed (or didn't) to the layman. He most definitely did not believe in God and accorded the prospect the same possibility as the existence of the Greek pantheon.

Agnosticism does not equal broad-mindedness and is not the natural result of mellowing with age. Rather, I think there are strong psychological factors that make it very difficult for people to admit to themselves and to their society that they do not believe in God. That is why, rather than abandon a belief in the God, the word itself has been progressively diluted in common usage to the point where it is essentially meaningless. It no longer is a statement of beliefs about the state of affairs in the world. Instead, it has become a way of saying, "I am like you. I share my culture's values. I am not the other." Saying you are an atheist places you outside of the realm of social discourse, because people don't know what to make of you. Dread of this, I suspect, in most cases is at the root of the modern thinking person's unwillingness to call themselves atheist.

Hugh

Edited by hughbristic, 11 July 2003 - 02:38 PM.


#23 ocsrazor

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 01:59 PM

Hi Hugh,

I guess this is all a matter of semantics for me too. For me atheism would be saying that I do not believe there is any possibility something like the God Zeus could ever possibly exist. Its pretty ridiciulous, but there is a very slim chance that the Greek Pantheon were a group of highly technically developed aliens, but with the morals of little children, who enjoyed using with humans as playthings. (sorry just having fun) Most likely the Greek Pantheon was just a set of percepts for helping the average ancient Greek try and understand their world though.

So, I choose the word agnostic, because it literally means without knowledge. As I mentioned above, because we are inside the system of the universe it would be impossible for us to know if something outside the system had created/designed/influenced it.

I have no problem telling your average bible thumping Christian that his or her concept of god is deeply flawed and is based on a 2000-5000 year old concept of the universe. Some of the eastern traditions are much more evolved though, and are simply paths for seeking truth. They do not seek to define god, but more simply say that there is something in the universe that is the source of everything we see.

You may be right (from a few posts ago) that the force of self-organization that I keep mentioning is simply a natural law, and calling it god may be the way that our emotional brains attempt to anthropomorphize it in order to comprehend it, in the same way the Greeks anthropomorphized most of the forces of nature and culture into gods. (btw, I often find myself anthropomorphizing my dishes of neurons, individual neurons, machinery - I think its a general tool for organizing thought processes)

For me though, atheism smacks of denying that such organizing forces exist, that the universe has any sense of directionality to it, and that there is any possibility of intelligence behind it. I think it would be very hard to argue for or against the possbility of extra-universal intelligence (due to Godel's ideas on computatbility).

If you are going to take away people's god-story you are probably going to have to replace it with another one for them to maintain a sense of their place in the universe. I don't think the idea of a purposeless universe is particularly healthy for a culture, and is probably further from the truth than their low resolution concept of what it actually is. We still need ways of conceptualizing concepts that we have no hope of understanding withour current level of cultural intelligence. The concept of a monotheistic, anthropomorphic, paternalistic god is very damaging in our culture because it has outlived its usefulness, but it would still be helpful to come up with new conceptualizations to help people make sense of their world.

Best,
Peter

Edited by ocsrazor, 11 July 2003 - 02:02 PM.


#24 Lazarus Long

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Posted 11 July 2003 - 02:33 PM

I would like to return to the qualitative distinction of "belief and knowledge". Some argue there isn't any and yet behaviorally it is foolish not recognize some distinction between "observable," empirically derived data and intuitive conjecture even from the most educated source.

I raise this because it is inherent in the issue of trying to define the organization of cognition and the problems of reference when trying to think "outside the self." We intuitively anthropomorphize because it is what we are most familiar with but that doesn't make it all that is possible for cognition.

Also I am curious if we are "hardwired to believe" not just "rationally think." I suspect we are and this begs a question of what adaptive advantage this provides a "cognitive species"?

I have some suggestions involving response times and actions but there is a very large void in cognitive & evolutionary psyche with respect to this.

Lastly there's a model here for cognition and organization that can be extrapolated from the evolution of language. Language cannot be the creation of a single individual, it must evolve through interactivity. It is a self organizing phenomenon and dissonance yields violence, unhealthy competition and destructive behavior and resonance yields trade, cooperation, and constructive endeavor. This is textbook sociolinguistics 101.

Language is the mechanism of "Cognitive Organization" regardless of whether we are talking about human beings or AI and I suggest perhaps at the level of the most basic material relationships of matter and even the most universal properties of a Unified Field. One language we see at work is mathematics but what if there exists more than one such universal encryption method and that is why we are also wired for subjective (seductive) reasoning?

Is this the language of the heart? The impetus of the will?

Defining the relationship of language and the brain is something that contributes to this apparent dilemma of being able to describe total knowledge of the self because of the inherent subjectivity of language.

Please comment.

#25 DJS

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 04:23 AM

Also I am curious if we are "hardwired to believe"  not just "rationally think."  I suspect we are and this begs a question of what adaptive advantage this provides a "cognitive species"?


Humans are not "hard wired to believe". Belief, specifically belief in God / an after life, is a meme that has out grown its usefulness. Belief is, in effect, a parasitic meme.

Let me digress a little...

Would you say that animals avoid (even fear) death? Certainly the cobra will avoid the mongoose. Do you think a gazelle's heart rate goes up when it sees a lion bearing down on it? It's hardwired into every organism to want to survive and to fear termination.

That same fear is hardwired into humans, only human beings have cognition/consciousness. And therein lies the difference. The animal only fears for its life when it is confronted with a clear and present threat (threatening external stimuli). Otherwise, "concerns" about its mortality do not exist because it is not conscious. Human beings are always aware of their own mortality because they are conscious. Accompanying this awareness is, of course, fear - a continuous, unrelenting fear.

To combat and/or minimize this unrelenting fear, rational man constructed a "conceptual frame work" ;)) . Belief, as a meme, was created by the evolutionary psychological trait of fearing death.

I think belief is also partially an aspect of man's consciousness and its demand for meaning, purpose, etc. If we don't have the answers, we'll try to make them up anyway.

Combine the two and that's where "belief" comes from.

So, what do you think? :)

Edited by Kissinger, 12 July 2003 - 04:59 AM.


#26 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 10:50 AM

That same fear is hardwired into humans, only human beings have cognition/consciousness. And therein lies the difference. The animal only fears for its life when it is confronted with a clear and present threat (threatening external stimuli). Otherwise, "concerns" about its mortality do not exist because it is not conscious. Human beings are always aware of their own mortality because they are conscious. Accompanying this awareness is, of course, fear - a continuous, unrelenting fear.


I won't debate the intellectual parochialism of this comment at this time let us just say that it is the "classical thought" with regard to animal behavior and psychology that is not actually verified but largely based on belief and not even empirical data.

In fact there is a large area of contradictory data like the "Lemming (suicide) Instinct" and animals (mostly insects) that allow themselves to be consumed physically as post-coital appetizers, so this is shall we say, fertile ground for discussion, but actually off topic. When it comes to belief and knowledge we have enough trouble trying to resolve the problem with only a human frame of reference so I will refrain from trying to argue what an animal believes versus what it knows for the time being.

But back to the "hard wiring" you are looking at something very different than I am, you are looking at "specific beliefs" while I am trying to analyze "why believe" at all. What is the qualitative function of belief that makes it distinct from knowledge?

This is no idle question and we have touched upon it in other discussions, I am returning to it here because I think it is germane to the issue of Naturalistic Spirituality & Increasing Complexity. Why would a randomized process of Natural Selection create a behavioral advantage for any organism to have a (possibly) biologically based "faith function"?

Now you chimed in and said:

Humans are not "hard wired to believe". Belief, specifically belief in God / an after life, is a meme that has out grown its usefulness. Belief is, in effect, a parasitic meme.


Please take notice you countered an objective inquiry and hypothesis with a proposition that was cloaked as "fact" but IN FACT is a statement of BELIEF.

Don't you just hate it when I do that to you?;))

Actually it is a perfect example however of the cognitive VALUE of belief. It is how we gain knowledge through the creation of hypotheses and one very valuable example of the distinction between deductive (reductionist reasoning) and inductive analysis that is far more than simple guessing.

Behaviorally I also would point out that belief gets us by the "panic reflex" that allows us to cognitively overrule instinctive behavior and suggests a cognitive mechanism of curiosity that gave our species an ability to do things like adapt fire into our technology, create self reflective psychology and philosophy, and most importantly push the envelope of environmental limitation that would lock any species into extinction if too inflexible in response to change. Without a "faith in the self" all great endeavor would cease to exist. Now perhaps do you see more clearly what I am referring to?

The analysis of belief is not just about "what people believe;" it is about the various functions socially and behaviorally for WHY they believe. For example the social function of marriage is predicated on "believing" just who your father is for the genetic preservation of lineage, though now we have DNA to corroborate belief for this issue. But this returns us to Dawkins for this discussion and I am sure makes many of you grimace. :)

It is however another example of the complex nature of belief systems that comfort humans in crisis and provide impetus to challenge perception. The practice of "Faith" is both much more and much less than it is generally understood to be. [B)]

#27 Lothar

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 02:09 PM

@ kperrot and Hugh: It's not about the existence of 'god' - whatever this term should mean - but about the existence of love. Traditional religious people make some inadäquat conclusion - exactly from that kind, which Wilber calls 'pre-rational' - from the existence of love to the existence of a personal omnipotent superhuman being. This is to be understood only by reflecting it in a historical perspective, especially in a perspective of the history of religions, in the way Peter has now added some new comments about the patriarchalic structures of traditional religion and so on. What the belief in a god like Zeus could mean in a psychological interpretation you can learn from C.G.Jung or you perhaps could read far instance some books by Mircea Eliade, died in 1986 and at last professor in Chicago for the sciences of religion. This author has also written a lot of fascinating novels and in some of them he dealt even with the topic of physical immortality but I don't think that this was his main orientation. And with him you will find also a lot of philosophical reflections about the development of history because in his perspective there is a strong contrary between historicism and the 'real' state of being. Living in history means: living in TIME. The real state of being, where Eliade is influenced by all the mystics, would mean: living OUT of time. So, in this view of course history cannot have a (positive) goal but in general all kind of religious myths have some inner logic structures of development etc.

Especially for Hugh: There are crosscultural demoscopic studies which show interessting differences between the western countries in the question 'Do you believe in God?'. In the United States there are more than 90% of the population which answer with 'yes' but in England, France and Germany it's only about 62, 63%. This is certainly connected with qualitive aspects and so if there is no strong and dogmatic christianity any longer there is no actuall need for strong atheism (and vice versa).

@ Kissinger: Reflecting death is only a potential for human consciousness and in fact most of the people don't ever reflect this - really threatening - topic. So religion can be just seen as an institutional form of banning this threat, danger and potentially fear, but the traditional religious ways are only banning it in a symbol and ritual way what is not enough any longer for modern people. Despite that the 'hardwiring' is much more complex because the evolving of the brain means the evolving of an organic learning system what implies the loosening of the 'hardness' of past experiences. The ability for emotions is hardwired - WHAT you will feel or believe (because of past reinforcements) not.

@ all: Then... it's a common and very widely spread misunderstanding that love would be only an emotion. I myself clinged to this misunderstanding very long because I've read Fromms 'The art of loving' first when I was 30 instead of 20, despite I always knew about this book. Certainly emotion is a central part of the phenomenon of love, but there are much more - and 'cognitive' or rational - aspects in it.

I myself was always interessted in biochemistral and especially evolutionary explanations of emotions. Have you ever heard about a book from 1980 'Programmed to learn' by Pulliam/Dunford?? It's a small and early study about the evolutionary origin of learning and the relation between genes and emotions for building some bridge between sociobiology and social psychology/learning theory. I would really like to hear that this book is known at least in anglo-american discussions because in the german field I never have found it quoted anywhere. Besides that personal interest normal modern people don't care ever about such scientific and 'rational' explanations for love or emotion - and with 'normal' people I mean the average intelligent people. In a way such explanations may be satisfying on a theoretically level but normally people don't want theories but the existential experience. Let's say: they don't want to read and reflect about eating - if they are hungry they want to EAT.

Theories in general have deeper meaning only if they lead to higher or more constructive forms of practice but in this field I'm very unsure especially about the positive effects of the biochemistral explanations of emotions. Far instance do you know this old film by Jerry Lewis 'The nutty professor' where the old and ugly professor is transforming himself into 'Buddy Love' by taking a drug, a funny variation of the old Dr.Jekyll and Mr.Hyde-theme!?? I estimate that may be nearly half of the one million people which later on in the afternoon and evening will attend the love parade here in Berlin today will go the 'nutty' way by taking some ecstasy-pill (or drink some ordinary alcohol) to feel emotions of love, joy and happiness. That means: they will use a chemical crook but by such means you cannot establish higher emergent levels of social interaction which are based on these qualities, in the way Peter has just explained it very well in a more general and abstract way. On the contrary the chemically manipulated emotions trigger only very solitary states of being, 'pre-rational' Wilber would call it, or 'regressive' what's the psychoanalytic term. Of course sometimes a little regression makes fun... ;-)

@Lazarus Long: Of course it's the language because human society secures life by social interaction. But language is not only a cognitive phenomenon - that would be an attitude of a very rational person. May be you read a novel or even a poem where you can get a taste of the deep emotional aspects of language and speeching. (Or see just the continuing game with all of your phantastic nicknames...)

You can differentiate belief and knowledge, o.k., but people like Ken Wilber or orientalic mystics differentiate between two kind of KNOWLEDGES: knowledge of the outer world and knowledge of the inner world. If you will use the same methods for the inner world like the ones you are using for the outer, you would make a categorial mistake. And in the inner search something like 'faith' is just a real existing quality which is different from other qualities like distrust, hope, guilt, hatred, happiness and so on and each quality has different origins, frame conditions, consequences for development or relation to others etc.

Why have 'belief' and 'faith' evolved you ask. That's not very difficult to explain because in the context of the importance of social interaction these are phenomenons of REDUCING complexity. If you have situations of decision you cannot always reflect, discuss and theorize about the problems like scientists or philosophers but have to ACT under circumstances of limited capacity of energy and time. Therefore special qualities of behaviour or inner attitudes fit better to the social aspect of acting than others. You can more easily manifest the collective forces if there is faith and believe in each other and this faith can be transfered also to the relation to abstract concepts or religious traditions if they had positive consequences in the past etc. No word to say that this possible accumulation of forces can also go into the wrong way if the time for special concepts is over, like Peter stated it or if faith is abused etc. So the positive effects of the rise of complexity have to be regarded in a more systemically or functional perspective. The individuals perspective is different. (And never forget: besides such very abstract discussions or scientific and may be political fields, where you could have responsibility also for institutional structures, you always deal with individuals.)

It's interesting for me seeing what relevance you - I mean some other discussion partners - give to the mem-theory because I understood mem-theory just as a try to explain social interaction in the range of evolutionary concepts. Let's say: it's something like the big unification theory in the human sciences. I have always agreed with the wish for unification - just for reasons why Peter has chosen this nickname - but if you deal with the problems in a more concrete way you will see that it is not usefull very much, probably because of the phenomenon of emergence and may be because of the fundamental differences between the inner and the outer world.

@ Peter: This phenomenon of emergence was very fascinating for me a lot of years ago, may be because for the very 'materialistic' young man like I had been it was pointing to the other pole but comes from the midst of materialistic positions and theories. And it always seemed like a kind of a modern mystery because how CAN matter lead to such totally different qualities and phenomenons of introspection like feelings, colour-seeing, self consciousness, thoughts, memory...?? I agree that the central core of it all is that we ARE these new emergent levels but all of the deep consequences I cannot survey. It reminds me of an old book by Konrad Lorenz where the resulting problems have been put already in the title: 'The backside of the mirror' because normally we CAN'T see the backside of the 'mirror' what means the reflecting capacity of the mind. (I hope it was translated in English and under this title!?) In this book he describes already in 1973 the phenomenon of 'fulguration' what means exactly the exploding- or flash-like process of forming new emergent level of biological structures with function by new rules or laws you could not derive from the lower parts. I dont't think that the term of 'fulguration' has been established in scientific discussion but in my view it's describing only the more dynamic aspect of the emergence topic or the aspect of transformation of lower structures into new and more complex ones.

Of course people like Ken Wilber would say that the REAL backside is this quality of inner experience you can only explore by inner and introspective means and not with normal scientic methods or reflections on the evolutionary process which are only analysing 'surfaces of surfaces' like Wilber calls it. Far instance in 'Sex, Ecology, Sprituality' you find some small chapter called 'inwardness'- I hope my translation is right!? - where he differentiates two main directions of theoretical perspective, the outer and the inner way I have called it a little bit simple already above. Being always interested in psychoanalytical theory I can follow him in this differentiation very clearly but therefore I do know of course of all kind of epistemological troubles. And it's really hard to read this book straight because it has 600 pages normal text and more than 200 pages appendix what normally is an indicator of less integration. 'Excessivly wordy' you characterized Wilber in your first contribution in the Wilber-thread - and I did not know this word 'wordy' before - and that's exactly the point! Since then, since 1995, he has published at least(!) three new books and this man is not an author - he's a writing machine or a text-computer or the one and only appendix to himself. 'Integration'???

May be it's this difficult self-referent aspect of the structure of mind (or mind-origin) why we need such mystics with all of their paradoxes and metaphors and meditations and so on to learn different/better/higher(?) forms of thinking or perceiving. Finally I aggree with your statements about the difference between the traditional religiousness and the mystics way, the difference of giving 'answers' versus learning methods of searching and dealing with questions by yourself etc.

If you have no 'umlaut' on your keyboard, why don't you just write 'oe' for ö, 'ae' for ä and 'ue' for ü!?? Be glad that your are not used to to use umlaute because in the context of the internet you won't make a lot of stupid mistakes. Far instance: if you name a file let's say 'gödel.html' it's getting lost in the virtual hyperspace for ever very easily...


Greetings from 'Bärlin', Germany! (The bear is the heraldic figure of the city and in german we spell it 'Bär'.)
Lothar
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'Like a fountain of gold - you will never grow old.' MADONNA, Dear Jessie, 1988

#28 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 05:02 PM

@Lazarus Long: Of course it's the language because human society secures life by social interaction. But language is not only a cognitive phenomenon - that would be an attitude of a very rational person. May be you read a novel or even a poem where you can get a taste of the deep emotional aspects of language and speeching. (Or see just the continuing game with all of your phantastic nicknames...)


Is it the language of love & hate, peace & war, or maybe order balancing chaos and destructive creativeness?

The short hand of it is life and death, the focus of this forum.

Well I should admit up front that we are biased and decidedly one sided. ;))

Let me see where I can begin about language and so much more; the faith in love and the reason not to hate?

Perhaps it is like the limits of reductionism being found through intuition and the part of inspiration that leads to a positive outcome always one step ahead of the planned result, as opposed to one step behind the unintended consequence.

Yes, I suspect the language of love is about preserving life, creating joy, and even animating dead matter but while conclusive proof is still too elusive to lend substantive credence to this hypothesis I recognize sufficient reason to believe nevertheless. “Emotion” is the syntax and lexicon of feeling within song, numbers in waves, and power as words.

Here are the concepts contextualized, it is easier to prove the inverse; hate is the language of destruction, the clear enemy of life; reason to kill and die. In fact most people see the dark side easier than the light within our selves, though we reflexively deny it in favor of trying to see our selves only in our best light but the lessons are nevertheless reflective.


Loving Language

Start looking for love
You never know why
It’s revealed among blades of grass
And in a child’s eye
Filling the changing skies
Even with the tears of surviving lives
Once intent to discover love
Whatever’s found tis better
Than anything bought or passed around

For love’s most precious
Priceless
Never purchased only found
The irony being
Hate seems cheap
Full of hidden cost yet abounds
Through our ideas we reflect our beauty unbound
For one measure of love is thought
One word a deed
It is creation’s creed


by Lazarus Long a.k.a. Kenneth X. Sills
© Right Now


I hope you like it everyone but I considered it an invitation and decided to post a little inspirational impromptu verse here. Consider it my little contribution to the discussion just to illustrate I do not only believe but I have reason to say I understand you Lothar.

Love and hate are about communication in the same manner as resonance and dissonance. We resonant through love and we dissent against what we hate. But the connection to language and more importantly art, is also about the cognitive perception of harmonic principle and “like mindedness” that is an extrapolation of “mating behavior” but is also about so much more than just “lust” as a language of love… and hate.

Passionate intensity marks both creation’s and destruction’s state.

So I have little problem saying how I suspect part of the path to not just longevity but true immortality is through devotion to the principle of loving life and death is in part at least, a consequence of letting ourselves be ruled by hate.

I may be called a Natural Spiritualist (I like the moniker Techno Gaian) though like ole Ben Franklin I should say I am probably deist (18th century PC lingo for agnostic). I am simply more comfortable without concern for a “sanction for my faith” and I am uninterested in proving to you or anyone other than myself that I know what I believe, or even that I believe what I know in a “Spiritual Sense”.

But as this thread is about something a little different it is necessary for me to ask us together to look deeper for us all to independently confirm the “Organization of Matter through Natural Logic” and whether we are hardwired to perceive such spectra of the mass/energy relationship in the form of an additional sensory mode and is this why we talk of the “sixth sense of emotion” with our “feelings” as a grammar of physics?

The grammar of emotion is all about the use of “senses,” just as the grammar of temporality in English is restricted to only spatial references. Grammar is not solely a social convention, it is also a function of neurophysiology and this cannot be considered mere coincidence as the use of sensory description for emotion tends to be a universal aspect of human language and cognition.

#29 Lothar

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 12:31 AM

@ Lazarus Long: By saying that language is not only a cognitive phenomenon, I just wanted to express that in EVERY spoken (or written) word and sentence there is an underlying hidden aspect of emotional motive, because you cannot NOT having feelings (just the way Watzlawick is saying you cannot NOT communicate). Only the FORM of the expression of your feelings can be different and modified and this is why this old dualism (of 'rational' versus 'emotional') has come up. So, the emotional aspects of language are not only in the language of love and hatred or of other expressions which are nearby explicit emotional phenomenons, they are - potentially - with every word because we are - also - emotional beings. But I would aggree: fixing especially the language of love and hate all the relations of this topic are be seen more clearfull. And poetry is surely a higher expression of the relation between the cognitive and the emotional aspects of language.

I think I can aggree on your comments about the relevance of love in considering immortality. And thanks for your poem though I had a little problems with the translation what is just a problem of my own. Sometimes it's difficult even to understand poetry of ones own language and it's well known that especially the deeper lyric aspect, which consists of metaphoric qualities, is hardly to translate. Besides that I'm a big fan of this old film with Robin Williams 'Dead Poets Society', although this 'carpe diem'-thing has surely a traditional tendency of accepting death. May be it's symbolic that this film does not possess a normal happy end (but I hope you know this film already because normally I hate it if someone is revealing the end of films).

About the question of evolutionary hardwiring you could find something very elaborated in this book I have mentioned above, 'Programmed to learn.' In short: the authors start with essentials from Dawkins 'The selfish gene' by interpretating the organism as a 'survival machine' for the genes. Now: as the surroundings are constantly changing and become more and more complex(!) it is not adaptive for the genes to determine the survival machines behaviour FIX. So learning programmes evolve what means that the individual organism makes his own (learning) experience which is NOT genetically programmed any longer. Therefore the development of the brain (of course only special parts of it etc.). BUT: the survival machines need CRITERIONS which learning experience is 'good' and which is 'bad' in general for the fundamental tendency of the genes to survive and to reproduce. These criterions are: the EMOTIONS!! With such evolutionary basis of the decision making organism you now could integrate learning theory in the range of the evolutionary paradigm and so on...

The book's not about the details of perception or language (or the neurobiological structures of the perceiving capacity of the brain) but - in my opinion - you could transfer the fundamental insights and principles very easily to these areas. As especially the human being or the complete human culture is the result of a gigantic learning process, the importance of such reflections should be clear. They are also antidots against all kinds of biological or evolutionary reductionisms which are interpretating the human beings as just simple 'marionettes of the genes' how the traditional sociobiologist term puts it. Human behaviour (and not only his physical structures and physiological processes) IS influenced by the genes but the lines are very, very long.

Greetings from Berlin, Germany!
Lothar

PS: Saturday on the love parade there had been 'only' half a million people, and may be the other half had just read my text above and stayed at home. (But WHICH half ??)... ;)

#30 Lazarus Long

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Posted 14 July 2003 - 08:04 PM

I was reviewing some older cosmology articles in Nature Magazine from last year and came across this article that I think is germane to our discussion; not only specifically in this thread but a few of the more speculative threads that have touched on elements of the topic. I suggest to all that a link back to the original article will reward you with a long trail of very current discussions that "illuminate" some of what we are in fact learning about this timely and important topic.

I have posted articles elsewhere questioning whether we are in fact accelerating, and also more importantly "why" if we are we are doing so.

LL/kxs

http://www.nature.co...2/020812-2.html

Is physics watching over us?
Our Universe is so unlikely that we must be missing something.
13 August 2002
PHILIP BALL

In an argument that would have gratified the ancient Greeks, physicists have claimed that the prevailing theoretical view of the Universe is logically flawed. Arranging the cosmos as we think it is arranged, say the team, would have required a miracle.

An ever-more-rapidly expanding Universe is destined to repeat itself, say Leonard Susskind of Stanford University, California, and his colleagues. But the chances that such re-runs would produce worlds like ours are infinitesimal.

So either space is not accelerating for the reasons we think it is, or we have yet to discover some principle of physics, the researchers conclude. Like a guardian angel, this principle would pick out those few initial states that lead to a Universe like ours, and then guide cosmic evolution so that it really does unfold this way.

The incomprehensibility of our situation even drives Susskind's team to ponder whether an "unknown agent intervened in the evolution [of the Universe] for reasons of its own". But creationists should not rejoice: even a god such as this can't explain how things got so strange.

The problem stems from the observation in 1998 that the Universe's expansion seems to be speeding up. The most popular explanation for this is that there is a cosmological constant - a repulsive force that opposes gravity.

As things stand, other galaxies will eventually disappear as they zoom away from us faster than the speed of light. Then nothing that happens in those parts of the cosmos can affect us. Our world - and everywhere else - will be isolated behind a boundary called a de Sitter horizon.

This view holds that the Universe will fragment into a foam of bubbles separated by de Sitter horizons: a de Sitter space. Each bubble would eventually settle into a bland, lifeless uniformity. And that would be the end of history.

Here we go again

Or would it? Thermodynamics says otherwise, reckon Susskind and his colleagues. Wait long enough, and everything that can happen, will. There is nothing to stop a drop of ink dispersed in a glass of water from gathering its molecules back into a single drop. It's incredibly unlikely but, with infinite patience, we'll see it happen.

In the same way, a Universe driven to become a de Sitter space by a cosmological constant will, after an absurdly long time, return to something like its original condition, the researchers say. A new cosmic history will then unfold, including the reappearance of life. But the chances that such a cosmic recurrence will produce a Universe like ours are extremely slim.

Cosmologists have a rejoinder to this kind of argument, called the anthropic principle. This says that, no matter how unlikely the Universe seems, the very fact that we are here to ask such questions resolves the paradox. If things were otherwise, life wouldn't exist and the question would never arise.

But Susskind's team show that the anthropic principle won't help, because a vast number of Universes would permit life and yet look quite different from this one. All of these habitable Universes would result from 'miraculous' statistical events. But there are so many of them that they would vastly overwhelm a cosmos like ours.

Even if 'something' had set the peculiar initial conditions of our Universe, this would only apply for its first run. Subsequent recurrences would produce a quite different Universe.

In that case, we'd have to conclude that we are in the first unfolding of this carefully crafted Universe. This all seems too much like special pleading, the researchers say.

So either there is no cosmological constant after all - in which case, why is the Universe accelerating? - or we're missing something fundamental.


References
Dyson, L., Kleban, M. & Susskind, L. Disturbing implications of a cosmological constant. Preprint, (2002).




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