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Scientific illiteracy and the academic culture


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#1 Utnapishtim

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 02:01 AM


Recently a poll was taken of university presidents asking them to name the books "you believe every undergraduate university student should read and study in order to engage in the intellectual discourse, commerce, and public duties of the 21st century," The answer from the assembled Great Minds was basically. "pretty much the same as what they should have studied and read in the 19th and 20th centuries. Below were the ten most popular choices.

I am a pretty staunch defender of the classics myself but the narrowness of this list is pretty disgusting.

1) The Bible
2) The Odyssey
3) The Republic
4) Democracy in America
5) The Iliad
6) Hamlet
7) The Koran
8) The Wealth of Nations
9) The Prince
10) The Federalist Papers

http://www.techcentr...om/022704C.html

#2 bacopa

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Posted 04 March 2004 - 07:35 PM

Pretty pathetic indead talk about old hash books that are often prescribed in high school what about Carl Sagan's the Cosmos? What about philosophy? Surely Ayn Rand should be on the list. Democarcy in America my ass that's the most boring book possible. How about Issac Assimov, Tenessee Williams, Jay Gould, Dostoyevsky or even some of the history of film books that are so pivotol to our culture? Surely a non-biased history book should be on the list, Europoean history, the Renaissance and other such books, even Kurzweill and some transhumanist books. Even some contemporary novels like stuff by Stephen King could be an interesting adendum to the list. Also some contempory art history, and anthropology books or semi old one's by Margeret Meade could be on the list. I give them credit for putting Sheakespeare and Greek literature but what about Engish and French and German literature?

Upon checking the site the obvious fact occurred to me that the list is 200 years old and all white! I would also list The Invisible Man, not the monster one, stuff by F. Scott Fitzgerald, I hate Hemingway I wouldn't put that on the list, but I would put Heart of Darkness and I think everyone should be schooled in WW1, 2 and the political uprises of the 1960's. How about the Harlem Renaissance? Stuff about the industrial revolution as much as that bores me.

I took a few courses on the era of the 1920's and think there is alot to be said for studying the novels that came out than, but I'm realizing my own ignorance not having read alot of contemporary philosophy, history, and political books, surely All the Presidents Men is a good one not to mention contemporary psychology and the stuff that's going on right now with stem cells, nano-tech, bio-engineering etc. I almost forgot art history which is so pivitol to our understanding of beauty and culture, at least it was for me.

I forgot Bertrand Russel, Why I'm not a Christian, and problems of philosopy, also books on the Holocaust might as well understand what all the anger and confusion is about...How about themes dealing with the rise of the 60's counterculture movement and pop culture in general? Not to mention books on 'contemporary' politics and political theory. There was no poetry books on the list that seems absurd, and books on the old west and the American perspective not to mention other cultural perspectives. Books on the internet, consumerism, and even books dealing with our fascination with sports which could include Greek literature. There are some real dumbasses on these college boards who don't know the first thing about a good modern liberal studies curriculum. How about modern religion reading up a little on all of the religions?

#3 nefastor

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 07:47 AM

"A non-biased history book" ? Who are you trying to fool, Dflower ? Don't you know that history is written by the winners ? That's a pretty big bias if you ask me. Having studied in different countries and with people from many foreign countries I can tell you no two nations teach the same history to their masses. It's pretty scary actually.

The only book on the top-10 list I'll agree with is The Prince. Machiavelli has simply put some essentials on human nature into words, and has done so efficiently, not in a 900-page pompous tome that you could use as a melee weapon in a riot.

The 9 other books, in my very humble, yet determined opinion, are must-read only in that sense that they are examples of mistakes of humanity. The Prince shows clearly why republic (res publica - that which belongs to the people) isn't ideal to maintain long-term order, and two world wars can go a long way to prove this.

The Bible - and you could also add pretty much every religious "Scripture" I've ever read - is an obvious bunch of contradicting stories that try to make every moral point so fuzzy that any smart clergyman could turn interpret them to his advantage. Consider the immense wealth of the Vatican and the fact it's up to the common people to act charitable.

If you can't, just go over the Genesis again. Mathuselah having sex and children with his own daugthers... the generous God spending 99% of his time punishing mankind... Anyone who could believe that kind of messy tale is the record of our Creator's will can be considered Scientology fodder. At least scientology is actual science - brain washing - that simply won't say its name for PR reasons.

Litterature, philosophy, transhumanism... you are being restrictive too, Dflower. Life in the society of Man is too complex that you could ever make a list of ten essential books. I don't see any book on that list that preaches common-sense, or basic math, or the simple laws of physics we experience every day, like gravity and temperature.

Having read most of the greek / roman mythology, I can further say that it is no use in real life unless you work in litterature. At least I never depended on my mythological knowledge even once in 27 years. OK, maybe I did during one or two high-school exams, but you couldn't say Zeus saved my life, or even my grades. It's good entertainment, that's certain, but you can find plenty of that besides Homer and Ovid. Especially if you consider pretty much 100% of litterature since Antiquity is a rehash of old mythologies. What we call today "stereotypes", and which have found their way even into science-fiction.

From my own experience, I can safely say that the most important lesson I was ever taught in class was when I was 6 and our teacher explained us causality.

This qualifies as a defining moment in my existance. I still remember this lesson, and I apply it, experience it and verify it every day of my life. This kind of universal knowledge that, though very simple, can save your life over and over without requiring complex training or thinking... this kind of knowledge is the only thing that should feature in a top-10 of things to know.

Ultimately, this top-10 list is nothing else but a collection of points of views by other people. I see no book in there that advocates using your freedom of thought. Propaganda and politics is all I see. It is sad to realise this is all the people who teach us can think about.

I guess they didn't take a minute to think about what they were being asked.

I'll add this isn't exactly a top-10 : The Bible and Koran are pretty much the same thing, and any edition of Homer's work you'll come across typically joins the Illiad and the Odissey in one single volume and the plot is shared, as well as the characters.

Hamlet... "to be or not to be, that is the question" : no it isn't. If you aren't, you can't ask it to yourself. If I had to put some Shakespere in this list it would be Henry V "We happy few, we band of brothers". Much more related to human nature if you ask me.

Regarding french litterature, you'll find Emile Zola to have been particularly great : his extensive saga - "Les Rougon-Macquards" - is a faithful picture of the society of his time and reveals great insight in the human nature.

In any case, I wouldn't put any books on politics in a top-10 of things to know past The Prince and The Art of War. Because it's all what politics boils down to eventually.

As for religion, I'd ban it totally. I'd confine it to history book as an ancient means of uniting men in a common goal, now replaced by more effective means but, sadly, not yet any trace of understanding.

Jean

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#4 nefastor

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 07:49 AM

Just a quick note before I go... I hate Hemingway too. I can't see what's so great about anyone who would commit suicide. They didn't have the guts to keep on existing...

How can you possibly get any lower than that ?

Jean

#5 bacopa

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 08:44 PM

Nefastor most of my entries were not based on was to get by in society they were for intellectual debate something not necassarily applicable to the basic rules of life.

it's DFOWLER not dflower I hope that was a typo ;) but seriously you're right basic math, causality, and basic truisms of mankind should be taught tha'ts why I put philosophy high up there.

I hate religion and I think it's a bunch of b.s. too. I haven't read the Prince and The Art of War nor alot of what you've talked about. Henry V is more celebratory than the dark and sometimes depressing Hamlet.

As long as we're going with basic ways to live how about books that legitametly show/teach people to be kind and altruisitc people? Or free thinking arguably as important if not more important than the former?

How about books on the imperfections of the human brain and why we get into dark mood states and better yet how to remedy them.

I feel like taking a 2x4 and hitting these numbskulls over the head!

#6 chubtoad

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Posted 05 March 2004 - 09:11 PM

This is a pretty bad list. The list is certainly lacking in philosophy, logic, and basic thinking books. I think GodelEscherBach would be a good book to fill that void. I would agree with having one book on democracy, but I have not read the one they mentioned.

Far to many books on mythology and religion.

#7 nefastor

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Posted 07 March 2004 - 06:23 PM

Sorry for miswriting your name, Dfowler ;) I read it too fast and I truly thought your name was Dflower. Another imperfection of the brain : erroneous extrapolation [lol]. It won't happen again.

Well at least we all agree religion and mythology shouldn't have such an overwhelming importance in this list.

Who knows ? Maybe the people they asked to come up with this list see themselves wearing a white toga and attending the roman senate ? I can already guess their e-mail addresses... demostene@ucla.edu, socrates@yales.edu ...

Did they ask anyone from Caltech or the MIT ?

Jean




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