Supplements And the M-Prize

It seems that there are lots of supplements with putative age prevention, cancer prevention, AGEs prevention, and heart disease prevention qualities. My question is:
If these supplements help then why doesn't someone try them on mice.....? It seems that the M-Prize winners won from a single faceted approach: Growth hormone knock out, CR, Positive Enviroment etc...
I understand the scientific value of testing one specific strategy at a time, but if someone is actually trying to win the M-Prize why not combine things? I would love to see a Growth Hormone knockout mouse on CR in a happy environment taking a supplement regime like some of the members here take... I was trying to flesh out my bottleneck ideas in the SENS forum but there wasn't much interest in it or I did a poor job explaining things.

But my point was this. If 90% of mice die from cancer in a laboratory and 10% of mice die from heart failure then anti cancer treatments will obviously have a good return (in terms of lifespan) where as any heart attack prevention treatments may have little return. But, once the mice are given cancer prevention treatments, the cause of death rate will likely shift depending on the efficacy of the cancer treatment to perhaps 60% death from cancer and 40% death from heart failure. Now there is a fair return on heart disease prevention treatments in terms of lifespan increasing. The point to take away from this is that there is synergy between various forms of life extension. The heart failure prevention treatment might have only increased average lifespan in normal mice by 1 month, however it might increase average lifespan by a year in a cancer resistant variety of mice (either from genetic alterations or supplementation).

Why doesn't someone take all the things which are more likely to increase lifespan than decrease it, and get the mice to take/do it?
I want to see a hormone knockout mouse on CR (and Tresv if they work together), in a pleasant enviroment, and on a full supplement regime (and maybe one batch on TA-65). If that works well then i'm sure it won't be difficult finding people to figure out which components were responsible for which parts of the life-extension. Someone needs to abort the scientific process of testing one thing at a time, and exploit the synergy of all the treatments!!!!

Edited by lucid, 15 April 2007 - 05:14 AM.

Perhaps you don't appreciate that almost every supplement sold is at best preventative, and doesn't actually impact intrinsic aging. I think M-Prize seeks to stimulate more fundamental interventions than just postponement of disease.

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As I understand it, there are a host of various anti oxidants and spin traps which have reported claims in cancer prevention. Another host of supplements as well as blood donation studies reports to help prevent heart disease and arteriosclerosis, cocoa comes to mind. There are also a host of ways to prevent AGE formation.

Perhaps you don't appreciate that almost every supplement sold is at best preventative, and doesn't actually impact intrinsic aging.

I guess that you are saying that supplements might increase the average lifespan, but not the maximum lifespan... There sounds like there is some basis for that, however I don't see how eliminating free radicals, preventing arterial build up, and preventing AGE formation are going to do anything but increase the lifespan of creatures.

I think M-Prize seeks to stimulate more fundamental interventions than just postponement of disease.

I do too and it is exciting. However, I say that someone should try throwing everything they have at it... 3 of the recent winners all tried different techniques: positive enviroment, CR, Hormone Knockout. Why not put them together? I expect that combined, the lifespan increase will be more than the sum of its parts. And either there are no food products or supplements that help with preventing deterioration that occurs with aging or there are. And if there are then why not throw that at them too?

Perhaps you don't appreciate that almost every supplement sold is at best preventative, and doesn't actually impact intrinsic aging.  I think M-Prize seeks to stimulate more fundamental interventions than just postponement of disease.

There are reported to be some effective cancer treatments now that work in mice, some based on nanotechnology and targeted specific cells without harming healthy ones. So obviously would reduce the risk of side effects and possibly not affect lifespan. In fact, I believe there are various techniques that can cure cancer in mice now. If calorie restriction extends maximum lifespan, but in the end the mice still die of cancer, then would *treating* the mice and potentially using the latest technology to cure, would the CR'd mouse be healthy enough to continue on living far longer than what we've seen to date? because it could just be a time effect, where at some point the chances are that cancer will kill them off, even if they are in other ways very healthy for their age.

As I understand it, there are a host of various anti oxidants and spin traps which have reported claims in cancer prevention. Another host of supplements as well as blood donation studies reports to help prevent heart disease and arteriosclerosis, cocoa comes to mind.

The known and potential benefits of specific supplements are certainly relevant to personal health because they are available now, and the risks are generally low. But if the best that can be done with aging today *in the laboratory* is to throw vitamins and plant extracts at it, then escape velocity is still a looooong way off.

But if the best that can be done with aging today *in the laboratory* is to throw vitamins and plant extracts at it, then escape velocity is still a looooong way off.

Well I think that lots of different technologies developing in the labs today are going to have to carry the brunt of the escape velocity load, I don't think that anytime in the near future will there be an escape velocity for people who have unhealthy diets and are sedentary. While some supplements that lots of us take like fish oil and multi-vitamins may have little effect on disease prevention, I think there are some that might legitimately help in prevent aging symptoms and delay age related diseases. On my list is Raw Cocoa powder, Pomegranate Juice, Melatonin, ALCAR and ALA. I am far from the most knowledgeable person on this board about supplements however, if they work then they should produce benefits in mice even if they are small.

There is another possibility, that is that anti-oxidants don't really help prevent age deterioration.

Aside from the issue of supplement use in mice, Why don't they combine techniques afore mentioned: CR, Hormone Knockout, Positive Enviroment, etc..

would the CR'd mouse be healthy enough to continue on living far longer than what we've seen to date? because it could just be a time effect, where at some point the chances are that cancer will kill them off, even if they are in other ways very healthy for their age.

Well, If you looks at the pillars of SENS then we see that aging is not a simple process. Even if we were able to completely prevent cancer, mice would still die. Cells produce waste products which accumulate over the life of the organism, check out the SENS part of the forum for the full list. The point is that if you beat one pillar of SENS then you might be able make a fair increase in average lifespan and a small increase in maximum lifespan. When you start hitting all of the pillars at the same time is when you see real jumps in average and maximum lifespan. This synergy is what I was talking about in earlier posts. That is why I think it is important to try and not simply do one thing to mice at a time.

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Part of the problem may be that nobody wants to extend mouse life span per se. All they want is extend it in a way that helps them test their favorite hypothesis of aging. A combination of multiple interventions of which you don't know in great detail how they work and interact isn't necessarily the best way to do this. The Mprize is in part intended to create this motive to extend life "just for the heck of it", but it has currently nowhere near enough cash to accomplish this for established investigators at institutions, and the rejuvenation prize's structure is probably less than appealing to the average garage biotech guy who might be interested in a few hundred thousand dollars.