Antioxidants don't protect against

Exercise and mononuclear cell DNA damage: the effects of antioxidant supplementation.
Davison GW, Hughes CM, Bell RA.

School of Health Sciences, University of Ulster Jordanstown, Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland, UK.

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of antioxidant supplementation on DNA damage following exercise. Fourteen subjects were randomly assigned to one of two groups and required to ingest either antioxidants (400 mg alpha-lipoic acid, 200 mg co-enzyme Q10, 12 mg manganese, 600 mg vitamin C, 800 mg N-acetyl cysteine, 400 microg selenium, and 400 IU alpha-tocopherol per day) or placebos for 7 d. Exercise increased DNA damage, PS, FRAP, and LDH (P < 0.05), but not selectively between groups. LDH and PS concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise (P < 0.05), while LH concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise in the antioxidant group only (P < 0.05). The antioxidant group had a higher concentration of LH (P < 0.05), perhaps due to a selective difference between groups post-exercise (P < 0.05). The main findings of this investigation demonstrate that exhaustive aerobic exercise induces DNA damage, while antioxidant supplementation does not protect against damage.

PMID: 16327031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Exercise and mononuclear cell DNA damage: the effects of antioxidant supplementation.
Davison GW, Hughes CM, Bell RA.

School of Health Sciences, University of Ulster Jordanstown, Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland, UK.

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of antioxidant supplementation on DNA damage following exercise. Fourteen subjects were randomly assigned to one of two groups and required to ingest either antioxidants (400 mg alpha-lipoic acid, 200 mg co-enzyme Q10, 12 mg manganese, 600 mg vitamin C, 800 mg N-acetyl cysteine, 400 microg selenium, and 400 IU alpha-tocopherol per day) or placebos for 7 d. Exercise increased DNA damage, PS, FRAP, and LDH (P < 0.05), but not selectively between groups. LDH and PS concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise (P < 0.05), while LH concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise in the antioxidant group only (P < 0.05). The antioxidant group had a higher concentration of LH (P < 0.05), perhaps due to a selective difference between groups post-exercise (P < 0.05). The main findings of this investigation demonstrate that exhaustive aerobic exercise induces DNA damage, while antioxidant supplementation does not protect against damage.

PMID: 16327031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Dear health_nutty:

Although this publication does not appear to be published with full peer review, there still might be something(s) implied, one of which is the following: DNA damage may not be reversible (by dietary supplementation or otherwise).

On the other hand, the combination of the supplements listed below that were reportedly used in this study may be the reason no benefit was found (i.e. the doses might have not been appropriate, or the combination may have questionable effects).

1) alpha-lipoic acid
2) co-enzyme Q10
3) manganese
4) vitamin C
5) N-acetyl cysteine
6) microg selenium
7) alpha-tocopherol

Another element to keep in mind is the possibility that 7 [seven] days may be too short of a period to reverse such DNA damage (and -- again, it is possible that these doses might not be effective even if such DNA damage is indeed reversible).

health_nutty, or anyone else: do you have any thoughts on this matter?

Take care.

Here is a link to the Pubmed reference

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This gets me thinking a little bit. Maybe in the eyes of us, damage means a different thing than it does to our body. Could damage in this instance mean a good thing? When you lift heavy weights, it rips up muscle cells, but they repair and grow as a result. Maybe some damage is warranted? Science is great right now, but we don't know everything yet.

Could it be that the way we have 'evolved' or been 'designed' that some damage is expected and needed???

Could it be that the way we have 'evolved' or been 'designed' that some damage is expected and needed???

Hormesis. Google it.

I'm trying to find time to give a respectable reply to this line of thought in the other thread regarding damage done during exercise and what (if any) role antioxidants would play in it.

health_nutty, or anyone else: do you have any thoughts on this matter?

Here is a link to the Pubmed reference

My only thoughts are: don't assume that "antioxidants" cure or prevent anything. This keeps coming up over and over. Instead look at the research behind each supplement. It seems that taurine is effective at protection from DNA damage due to exercise. I have just added taurine to my regimine.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....1&dopt=Abstract

Role of taurine supplementation to prevent exercise-induced oxidative stress in healthy young men.

Zhang M, Izumi I, Kagamimori S, Sokejima S, Yamagami T, Liu Z, Qi B.

Department of Welfare Promotion and Epidemiology, Faculty of Medicine, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Toyama, Japan.

To evaluate the protective effects of taurine supplementation on exercise-induced oxidative stress and exercise performance, eleven men aged 18-20 years were selected to participate in two identical bicycle ergometer exercises until exhaustion. Single cell gel assay (SCG assay) was used to study DNA damage in white blood cells (WBC). Pre-supplementation of taurine, a significant negative correlation was found between plasma taurine concentration before exercise and plasma thiobaribituric-acid reactive substance (TBARS) 6 hr after exercise (r = -0.642, p<0.05). WBC showed a significant increase in DNA strand breakage 6 hr and 24 hr after exercise. Seven-day taurine supplementation reduced serum TBARS before exercise ( p<0.05) and resulted in a significantly reduced DNA migration 24 hr after exercise ( p<0.01). Significant increases were also found in VO(2)max, exercise time to exhaustion and maximal workload in test with taurine supplementation ( p<0.05). After supplementation, the change in taurine concentration showed positive correlations with the changes in exercise time to exhaustion and maximal workload. The results suggest that taurine may attenuate exercise-induced DNA damage and enhance the capacity of exercise due to its cellular protective properties.

Publication Types:

* Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't


PMID: 15042451 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Exercise and mononuclear cell DNA damage: the effects of antioxidant supplementation.
Davison GW, Hughes CM, Bell RA.

School of Health Sciences, University of Ulster Jordanstown, Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland, UK.

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of antioxidant supplementation on DNA damage following exercise. Fourteen subjects were randomly assigned to one of two groups and required to ingest either antioxidants (400 mg alpha-lipoic acid, 200 mg co-enzyme Q10, 12 mg manganese, 600 mg vitamin C, 800 mg N-acetyl cysteine, 400 microg selenium, and 400 IU alpha-tocopherol per day) or placebos for 7 d. Exercise increased DNA damage, PS, FRAP, and LDH (P < 0.05), but not selectively between groups. LDH and PS concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise (P < 0.05), while LH concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise in the antioxidant group only (P < 0.05). The antioxidant group had a higher concentration of LH (P < 0.05), perhaps due to a selective difference between groups post-exercise (P < 0.05). The main findings of this investigation demonstrate that exhaustive aerobic exercise induces DNA damage, while antioxidant supplementation does not protect against damage.

PMID: 16327031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One wonders why they thought it was a good idea to give more than the UL of manganese. Transition metals in excess cause oxidative damage.

Exercise and mononuclear cell DNA damage: the effects of antioxidant supplementation.
Davison GW, Hughes CM, Bell RA.

School of Health Sciences, University of Ulster Jordanstown, Newtownabbey, Northern Ireland, UK.

The purpose of this investigation was to determine the effects of antioxidant supplementation on DNA damage following exercise. Fourteen subjects were randomly assigned to one of two groups and required to ingest either antioxidants (400 mg alpha-lipoic acid, 200 mg co-enzyme Q10, 12 mg manganese, 600 mg vitamin C, 800 mg N-acetyl cysteine, 400 microg selenium, and 400 IU alpha-tocopherol per day) or placebos for 7 d. Exercise increased DNA damage, PS, FRAP, and LDH (P < 0.05), but not selectively between groups. LDH and PS concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise (P < 0.05), while LH concentration decreased 1 h post-exercise in the antioxidant group only (P < 0.05). The antioxidant group had a higher concentration of LH (P < 0.05), perhaps due to a selective difference between groups post-exercise (P < 0.05). The main findings of this investigation demonstrate that exhaustive aerobic exercise induces DNA damage, while antioxidant supplementation does not protect against damage.

PMID: 16327031 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

400 microgram selenium? Is that not too much? The tolerable upper level for selenium is 400 microgram. And you also get selenium from your food.

Most people living in the USA eat foods containing 60–120 microgram of selenium per day.

This means they get between 460 and 520 microgram each day.

Fruits and veggies are good too:

http://www.ncbi.nlm....Pubmed_RVDocSum

The effects of vitamin C and vitamin E on oxidative DNA damage: results from a randomized controlled trial.
Huang HY, Helzlsouer KJ, Appel LJ.

Department of Epidemiology, School of Hygiene and Public Health, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Maryland 21205-2223, USA.

Oxidative DNA damage may be important in mutagenic, carcinogenic, and aging processes. Although it is plausible that antioxidant vitamins may reduce oxidative DNA damage, evidence from human studies has been sparse and inconsistent. We determined the short-term effects of vitamin C (500 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 IU d-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/day) supplements on oxidative DNA damage in a double-masked, placebo-controlled, 2x2 factorial trial in 184 nonsmoking adults. Mean duration of supplementation was 2 months. Oxidative DNA damage was measured by 24-h urinary excretion of 8-hydroxy-2'-deoxyguanosine (8-OHdG). At baseline, urinary 8-OHdG (mean +/- SE; ng/mg creatinine) was associated with race (15.6 +/- 0.8 in African Americans versus 20.3 +/- 1.2 in Caucasians, P = 0.001), prior antioxidant supplement use (18.6 +/- 0.8 in users versus 13.8 +/- 1.5 in non-users, P = 0.007), and regular exercise (19.2 +/- 1.1 in exercisers versus 16.6 +/- 0.9 in non-exercisers, P = 0.04). Fruit and vegetable intake and serum ascorbic acid were inversely associated with urinary 8-OHdG (P-trend = 0.02 and 0.016, respectively). The benefits of fruit and vegetable intake became evident with the consumption being at least three servings/day. At the end of supplementation, change from baseline in urinary 8-OHdG (mean +/- SE; ng/mg creatinine) was -0.6 +/- 1.4 (P = 0.61), 0.6 +/- 1.1 (P = 0.59), 0.5 +/- 1.0 (P = 0.61), and 1.6 +/- 1.4 (P = 0.27) in the placebo, vitamin C alone, vitamin E alone, and combined vitamins C and E groups, respectively. In overall and subgroup analyses, there was no significant main effect or interaction effect of the supplements on urinary 8-OHdG. In conclusion, supplementation of diet with vitamin C (500 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 IU d-alpha-tocopheryl acetate/day) had no significant main effect or interaction effect on oxidative DNA damage as measured by urinary 8-OHdG in nonsmoking adults. However, several aspects of a healthy lifestyle were associated with lower oxidative DNA damage.

PMID: 10919732 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

oxidative damage is a normal part of living, and goes on all the time in the body. the benefits of exercise to the immune and cardiovascular system far outweight the detriment of oxidative damage that could be caused by exercise.

otherwise we wouldn't have studies like this:

Influence of exercise, walking, cycling, and overall nonexercise physical activity on mortality in chinese women.
Matthews CE, Jurj AL, Shu XO, Li HL, Yang G, Li Q, Gao YT, Zheng W.

Department of Medicine, Division of General Internal Medicine and Public Health, Vanderbilt Epidemiology Center, Vanderbilt University Medical School, Nashville, TN.

This investigation described the effects of exercise, walking, and cycling for transportation, as well as the effect of overall nonexercise physical activity, on mortality in the Shanghai Women's Health Study (1997-2004). Women without heart disease, stroke, or cancer were followed for an average of 5.7 years (n = 67,143), and there were 1,091 deaths from all causes, 537 deaths from cancer, and 251 deaths from cardiovascular diseases. Information about physical activity and relevant covariates was obtained by interview. Proportional hazards models were used to estimate adjusted hazard ratios and 95% confidence intervals. Exercise and cycling for transportation were both inversely and independently associated with all-cause mortality (p(trend) < 0.05), but walking for transportation was less strongly associated with reduced risk (p(trend) = 0.07). Women reporting no regular exercise but who reported 10 or more metabolic equivalent (MET)-hours/day of nonexercise activity were at 25-50% reduced risk (p(trend) < 0.01) relative to less active women (0-9.9 MET-hours/day). Among women reporting the least nonexercise activity (0-9.9 MET-hours/day) but reporting regular exercise participation, exercise was associated with reduced mortality (hazard ratio = 0.78, 95% confidence interval: 0.62, 0.99). These findings add new evidence that overall physical activity levels are an important determinant of longevity, and that health benefit can be obtained through an active lifestyle, exercise, or combinations of both.

PMID: 17478434 [PubMed - in process]

oxidative damage is a normal part of living, and goes on all the time in the body.  the benefits of exercise to the immune and cardiovascular system far outweight the detriment of oxidative damage that could be caused by exercise.

otherwise we wouldn't have studies like this:

Definitely true for moderate exercise. DNA damage occurs from extreme exercise and not moderate exercise.

what do you consider extreme. powerlifting would be one example

This again makes me think whether training to failure, slow eccentric movement and other high intensity exercise methods are a good idea after all.(I'm talking about weightlifting here)
It would really be nice to have some kind of study to demonstrate what is considered extreme exercise, ie DNA damaging exercise.

well training to failure is not necessary to induce muscular growth and high intensity techniques are good once in a while to break through a plateau.

well training to failure is not necessary to induce muscular growth and high intensity techniques are good once in a while to break through a plateau.

Yes I know it isn't necessary, but I've found that it seems to be the best way to go if I want to decrease my gym time and still make progress.
That in mind, it makes me reluctant to go back to doing more sets, thus spending more time training.

But on the other hand, as there seems to be increasing amount of evidence that training to failure might be counterproductive regarding life extension,
I just may have to change my training methods after all, since health really is the primary concern.

well do you already perform low volume- low sets/reps- with failure training.

They're talking about aerobic exercise here, not resistance training. In fact:

Resistance exercise training decreases oxidative damage to DNA and increases cytochrome oxidase activity in older adults.
Parise G, Brose AN, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ont., Canada L8N 3Z5.

Regular resistance exercise increases muscle strength and induces muscle fibre hypertrophy in older adults. Although the underlying causes of aging remain unclear, like acute exercise, aging is associated with oxidative stress. In ageing, however, oxidative stress is closely associated with mitochondrial dysfunction as proposed by the mitochondrial theory of aging. The effect of regular resistance exercise upon mitochondrial function and oxidative stress in older adults is unknown. Twenty-eight older men and women (approximately 68.5+/-5.1 yr) performed whole-body resistance exercise training for 14 weeks. Muscle biopsies were taken before and 72 h following the last exercise bout from the vastus lateralis. Urine samples were also taken at the time of tissue collection. Resistance exercise training was associated with a decrease in 8-OHdG (Pre: 10783+/-5856, Post: 8897+/-4030 ng g(-1) creatinine; p<0.05). Protein content for CuZnSOD, MnSOD, and catalase, and enzyme activities for citrate synthase, mitochondrial ETC complex I+III, and complex II+III were not significantly different from baseline. However, complex IV activity was significantly higher after training as compared to before training (Pre: 2.2+/-0.5, Post: 2.9+/-0.9 micromol min(-1) g(-1)ww; p<0.05), as was the ratio of complex IV to complex I (Pre: 11.1+/-9.3, Post: 14.5+/-10.3; p<0.05). There were no apparent changes in normal mtDNA content or visible mtDNA deletion products as a function of training. These data suggest that regular resistance exercise decreases oxidative stress, but does not affect mtDNA. Moreover, increases in complex IV of the electron transport chain may have an indirect antioxidant effect in older adults and may improve function in daily activities.

PMID: 15763394 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

So if you wanna minimize genetic damage, resistance training over aerobic workouts are the way to go.

They're talking about aerobic exercise here, not resistance training.  In fact:

So if you wanna minimize genetic damage, resistance training over aerobic workouts are the way to go.

From the research without supplementation:
1) Eccentric resistance training causes DNA damage
2) Moderate resistance training does not.
3) Running to exhaustion causes DNA damage
4) Moderate aerobic exercise does not.

Some supplements seem to help minimize or eliminate the dna damage caused by extreme exercise.

  well do you already perform low volume- low sets/reps- with failure training.

Volume in general and number of sets in particular are low yes. I generally do only 1-2 sets per exercise. Reps on the other hand are usually in the range of 6-12 depending on the exercise. I do 2 full body workouts in a week in that fashion(with freeweights) and a third with girya(that one is obviously not to failure). Works very well, but it does get pretty intense, partly because of slow eccentric phase on my reps. I'm probably going to replace the other freeweight workout with a bigger volume, non failure, faster eccentric workout and see how that goes. Just to be on the safe side.

Eccentric resistance training causes DNA damage

This is a real bummer, eccentric training is fun [lol]

Although makes sense, since negatives do damage muscles more.

Moderate resistance training does not.

Too bad moderate resistance training just doesn't cut it if you want to get big. Not for me atleast.

I have just added taurine to my regimine.

Any info on what the optimal dosage might be? I didn't seem to spot anything regarding dosage on the study you mentioned.

I find I can make good progress working just short of failure (but still doing progressive overload). If I go all the way to failure every workout I often will stall. Some experts think this is because going to failure causes CNS fatigue and then the CNS takes longer to recover than the muscles. Makes sense to me but what do I know.

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thats true. personally I just go for a deisgnated no. of reps that day followed by a back-off set. as for failure I think one set to failure is fair enough, but I think you need to reach that level where you can tax your system in just one set.