New and in much need of advice!

I'm looking to begin a relatively minimal and cost effective program. I have anxiety, (which has really stunted my cognitive functioning) and fatigue issues and a mild case of OCD (obsessivess not complusiveness). For those reasons I'm currently on MAO inhibitors and have also just been prescribed Xanax for anxiety. Basically I'm looking to improve memory, cognitive function, ability to sit still and focus and to induce an element of calmness and relaxation.

I'm not pleased about being on any of these meds. I'm hoping to use a mix of nootropics which I will have little to worry about as far as safety or conflict when mixed together or taken at the same time. I'm about to begin an MBA program at a top school and want to be able to sit still, focus and get through the insane amount of reading material quickly without forgeting what it was I just red 5 five minutes prior.

I will have little time to start preparing a million capsils or take different supplements at six different times throughout the day so I was hoping to get a recommendation for a regiment where I might mix the right proportions of the various products in a container once every week or two and just take a teaspoon or two in the morning and then at lunch. Sounds lazy and lacking in accuracy but I don't see why it shouldn't be possible if I measure out proportions before I mix everything.


Most of what I know is basically from reading www.mind-boosters.com and so this was the regiment I had in mind prior to finding this site:

Omega 3
Ginkgo biloba
N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine
CDP Choline
Huperzine A
Vinpocetine
L-Theanine and/or Kava (for relaxation)
Bacopa
DMAE
ALA
(Siberian Ginseng) and/or (Rhodiola)
(Ashwaganda)


Then I saw the Nootropi's/Adam's recommendations (Nootropi's Suggestions) which are completely different. I am unfamiliar with most of those products but will gladly take them if it is what will best help me achieve my above mentioned goals and provided they're safe. Also I live in Canada so $300US is a bit pricy for me (as it is almost $450 Cdn).

What do you recommend given my specific situation. What do you think of the regiment I posted? Should I go with Nootropi's suggested regiment? Do I mix the two? Which supplements are most important if I was to keep within my budget?

Also what do you think of this product: http://store.yahoo.c...ainwavplus.html (I suppose it's quite pricy given the amounts)

I REALLY appreciate anyones help on this!!!

Thanks,

PoM

P.s. This site absolutely rocks!!! And some of this stuff must be working cause there are some pretty damn bright people on it!

Check your PM. I sent you directions for a very simple relaxation exercise which will cost you nothing. If you do it twice a day for as little a 5 minutes you may be pleasantly surprised with how it effects your anxiety.

Scott

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

scottl can you post or send me that exercise too? thanks

Hello Peace of Mind!

First, the suggestions that you linked to are rather old; I would not recommend that exact regimen today.
So we can most effectively help you, please tell us ALL medicines and/or supplements that you currently take, and the daily doses and times that you take them, as well as any allergies and misc. quirks about yourself.

Much of my success with so called "smart drugs" has been yielded by a trial and error process. I am pretty sure this is the case with all my friends in this forum; so all we can share are our personal successes and/or failures. However, this can be of value for you.

Also; what is the most you can spend and what you would "like" to spend?

Edited by nootropi, 07 September 2004 - 12:31 AM.

First, I would let the antidepressant show full effect, then add supplements with care, if you are on MAO inhibitors you must care for the so called "cheese effect" caused by tyramine containing foods. Are you on a irreversible MAO?.

depression and OCD affect concentration, so when you get relief from them you will be better in those areas too.

Regarding your supplements this is what i know:


Omega 3: good, improve membrane fluidity, stability and so the sensibility of receptors (supposedly), there are studies in bipolars, better are fish oils because of the type of long chains (EPA/DHA)

increase antioxidants if you take omegas


Ginkgo biloba: there are reports that it has a weak MAO effect, so be carefull.

N-Acetyl-L-Carnitine: I don´t know

CDP Choline: very good and I do not see a problem, but maybe I lack info

Huperzine A: there are different opinions, it inhibits the enzime that degrades ACH, I do not know if it ca be a problem with MAO, I would think it is OK.

Vinpocetine: good, I like it, not sure if there are interactions

L-Theanine and/or Kava (for relaxation): or valerian, Kava I am not sure if it is safe for you (espite the liver problems that now we know the cause)

Bacopa: i on´t know (only the reported effects)

DMAE: In your case I would not recommend it. It is very interesting (I have taken it) but for some it can raise MAO and also, any cholinergic can affect OCD (DMAE and ALCAR can be in this class). The effect depennds on the dose and there are mixed reports and opinions.

ALA: I do not see problems

(Siberian Ginseng) and/or (Rhodiola)
(Ashwaganda) Rhodiola, maybe there are interactions

You should for interactions, there are websites where you can check for drug-nutrient intereactions

I think that your best to start with would be to try the fish oils and the theanine. Theanine is reported to affect dopamine but I do not think in a way that can cause you problems.

In my experience, exercise like aerobics or weight training is good for anxiety and depression. Noticeable effects. Besides there are many studies that report cognitive benefits.

I would tell your doctor you are taing supplements. If he is collaborative he will listen and help you. If not.. ask someone else.

You may find www.amen.com interesting, he recommends supplements for certain conditions

noos,

I'll post the relaxation exercise on its own thread so anyone who is interested can see it.


Peaceofmind I second the idea of aerobic exercise for you.

SCott

Wow, thanks for responding so quickly guys! Scott I shall give those breathing exercises a go. Done something similar before but never been able to stick with it. As far as Aerobic exercise I used to go to the gym a great deal but have been faced with such intense fatigue issues for the past 6-12 months that it's been virtually impossible. I've had a little extra energy since starting the MAOs a month ago and have managed to get a bit in…I suppose it’s a start!

Nootropi my schedule is as follows:
AM:
-150-300mg Manerix (Moclobemide). (Irriversible MAOs? Don't know...I sure hope not…that doesn't sound too safe. What exactly is this Cheese effect? And which foods need I avoid?)
-1g Omega 3
-1g mixed Omega 3,6,9
-Multivitamin (Costco or Source Naturals Multi ---)
-Calcium/Magnesium - 300mg/175mg
-Sometimes additional Selenium 100mg
-Sometimes 1g Spirulina
-2g Gingko leaf extract

PM:
-150-300mg Manerix

When needed:
-Antihistamines - I have had allergies (especially to animals), asthma and eczema for as long as I can remember. But they have all more or less been under control for years until recently. I have been having major skin issues for a few months now. My skin has just been in the worst shape I can remember it. To control some of the itch I take antihistamines when needed. It may partially as result of increased stress but I not really sure. Also take Acidophilus.
-Sleeping aids - I've been given a prescription for Xanax but have not yet used it. It seems like there might be some potent natural alternatives with L-Theanine (maybe Kava although Noos pointed out it's not a good idea). I also on occasion use either a valerian/hops/passionflower supplement or Lorazipam for a deeper sleep.


Well as far as quirks I suppose the most important info is the OCD (really just obsessive in nature and not compulsive). I tend to worry too much about things. It makes me both a perfectionist and a procrastinator. Very exhausting I tell ya! I think it is responsible for numerous bouts of depression and damage to my cognitive functioning but it's kinda the chicken or the egg thing…Did the anxiety and OCD bring on the depression and central nervous system problems (i.e. messed up neurotransmitter levels, HORRIBLE memory, poor cognition and focus) or does my nervous system have a predisposition to it and caused the OCD/anxiety/Depression.

Well to add insult to injury, I found myself getting sick one cold, flew, bronchitis, bacterial infection after the next for almost a year. I suppose my immune system went into shock having to deal with all this! Anyway, I dealt with that by becoming Vegan November 2002. It has done wonders for my health. I do eat fish but next to no dairy, meat, eggs, or simple carbs (i.e. sugar, white flour, white pasta, white potatoes, white rice etc...). I take supplements and I'm very meticulous about my diet so I don't think I'm missing much in the way of nutrients.

Do you think I should try and drop the MAOs? Will this regiment allow me to do that? While Manerix has been the best of the antidepressants to date and has helped to some degree, it has not done so as much as I had hoped. That said, given the MBA I can't afford to fall into a poor state if ye know I mean. I've tried so many of these drugs before and none have provided a solution as they all have had side effects or have been unable to deal with or often exacerbated the fatigue and cognitive issues.

I'm 28 now and know the years of anxiety and depression have reeked some serious and possibly permanent damage on my nervous system so it would just be amazing to be able to heal/restore it to some degree. As far as budget, I was hoping to stay within the $200US/6months range. Do you think that will be enough to see some positive results?

Anyway I'm REALLY excited about the prospect of a nootropic regiment. I'm hoping it will give me back a bit of control over my state or function of mind and my life as a whole for that matter. And I must say, I really appreciate everyone’s feedback!

Thanks again!

PoM

Hello POM!

Thanks for coming back and visiting us!

The first thing I need to do is look into that MAO inhibitor; I am unfamiliar with it so you need to give me a few days to do a bit of reading on Manerix (Moclobemide). I cannot give you an reply until I do this; I am going to start now; I get exited learning about new pharmies!

It seems like there might be some potent natural alternatives with L-Theanine (maybe Kava although Noos pointed out it's not a good idea).  I also on occasion use either a valerian/hops/passionflower supplement or Lorazipam for a deeper sleep.
PoM

I would not simply take noos's word for it on that; he has been known to submit his speculation which, considering we are on the Internet is totally irrational; unless, of course, he has a Doctorate in the field in which he is speculating; then I would accordingly expect him to cite the reasoning (or scientific evidence) for his speculation.

peaceofmind.there is nothing wrong with kava, if you get the products that are properly manufactured.

Kava was retired from the market in some europeans countries due to liver toxicity, but now there are studies suggesting this problem is due to the inclusiion of some parts of the plant that are not used in the tradition.

I remember reading about some MAO effect but it may be not strong. You have to evaluate it.

Anyway, I like valerian more.

Of course none of these herbs are as potent as alprazolam.

Toxicol Sci. 2004 May;79(1):106-11. Epub 2004 Jan 21.
In vitro toxicity of kava alkaloid, pipermethystine, in HepG2 cells compared to
kavalactones.
Nerurkar PV, Dragull K, Tang CS.
Department of Molecular Biosciences and Bioengineering, College of Tropical
Agriculture and Human Resources, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, Hawaii 96822, USA. pratihba//hawaii.edu
PMID: 14737001


http://the.honolulua...7/ln/ln03a.html

HILO, Hawai'i A team of University of Hawai'i scientists may have solved
the mystery of why some Europeans who used products containing kava extract
suffered severe liver damage, prompting a number of nations to ban sales of
the herbal supplement.

Ok I just Googled it: kavalactones MAO

Perioperative Considerations for Herbal Medicinals

... kavalactones may act on central GABA and BZD binding sites; may decrease excitability
of the limbic system; may antagonize dopamine and inhibit MAO uptake; ...
www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/umherb02.htm


calm down, moclobemide is a RIMA (reversible MAO inhibitor), weak interaction with tyramine (no cheese effect= hypertensive crisis)

more later

The histamine issue is interesting.

Take this with a grain of salt, but you may find this page interesting:

http://www.nutrition...au/subtypes.htm

It is derived from Dr. Carl Pfeiffer work on schizophrenias, but don´t think you are because you share some symptoms.

Let me know what you think of the supplements suggested.

the webpage moved here:

http://www.nutrition.....ical Subtypes

also:

http://www.nutrition...tion=Depression

Edited by noos, 07 August 2004 - 08:07 PM.

the webpage moved here:
http://www.nutrition.....ical Subtypes
also:
http://www.nutrition...tion=Depression

This is a perfect example of how the Internet has TOO MUCH INFORMATION; in particular total CRAP in this case. Noos, are you aware that you are citing a "Nutrition" student? He is only offering anecdotal evidence. Please try to cite references whose research is post college graduate, at least!

About
Website creator Blake Graham lives in Perth, Western Australia. He is presently a Nutrition student at Curtin University (only one semester remaining until course completion). Other studies include completing units in Human Biology, Psychology and Philosophy at The University of Western Australia in 2000 and a unit in Physiological Psychology at Curtin University in 2003.

Blake has been passionately researching the role of diet/nutrients in overcoming disease for five years. His research includes reading books, journal articles, mailing lists for health professionals, numerous internet resources, as well as personal experience.

His future plans include further university study and starting a nutrition consulting business in early 2005 which provides people with advice about diet, supplements and lifestyle modifications for the purpose of overcoming illness. His present main interests include chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and mental health conditions. Also interested in mental health, Blake’s father (who practices in Perth, Western Australia) has worked as a counselor for over three decades.

This website was first launched by Blake in February 2003 with the purpose of informing readers of the many possibilities in overcoming illness, and the importance of nutrition in this regard. The funding for the new professional design of the site was provided by a very generous and caring woman from Baltimore, Margie Roswell.

[ang]

the webspage mentioned are based on the work by Dr. Carl Pfeiffer
everyone knows him
Dr. Carl Pfeiffer a student?
anyone can go to the Pfeiffer website instead (there is also a link), but this URL is more easy
polemic, but interesting
I am just adding this info for peaceofmind, but sure it is redundant because he can read and it is in the webpage

the webspage mentioned are based on the work by  Dr. Carl Pfeiffer
everyone knows him
Dr. Carl Pfeiffer a student?
anyone can go to the Pfeiffer website instead (there is also a link), but this URL is more easy
polemic, but interesting
I am just adding this info for peaceofmind, but sure it is redundant because he can read and it is in the webpage

Well now, noos, trust me: I do not enjoy constantly having to bring these items continally to your attention.

Are you aware that orthomolecular "doctors" depend largely on anecdotal evidence rather than hard science? Their leaders profess:

Prescription drugs are one of America's leading causes of disease and death. The problem with prescription drugs is very simple...they do nothing to cure disease. All they do is suppress the symptoms of disease by disrupting normal cellular functions. Abnormal cell function is the very definition of disease, and since prescription drugs cause our cells to malfunction, then...

Now that is the biggest load of garbage I have ever heard in my life. Do you realize, noos, that you are using this logic as the basis for your argument? People who believe that prescription drugs are THE LEADING CAUSE OF DISEASE AND DEATH? LOL.

peaceofmind, this is what I would consider for a minimal and cost effective program:

First, let the Moclobemide do its work. Once depression is lifted your memory and cognitive abilities will improve. If Moclobemide fails, there is always something else to try. e.g. tianeptine is VERY interesting.

You must trust your psychiatrist or find one you trust.

Alprazolam: the problem with this one is that if you use it regularly you may develop dependence (not "addiction" like many like to say), due to its relatively short half life, depending on the dose and length of use, etc. Withdrawal has to be controlled, not "cold turkey". But if you use it on occasions there will be less problems. Although, if you need it and it works for you, then it is better than nothing. an alternative is clonazepam (Klonopin), longer life, less habituation.

You are not damaged, bad or anything, you have a problem and can improve. Even if you need repetitive treatments there isn´t nothing bad in that. See http://www2.eurekale...m-dtt080404.php

I would also look for psychotherapy, but a good therapist. Sometimes it is difficult to find one, but if you are near a university or teaching hospital you can look there or even search the univ website. Practices there are supervised by experienced people. Just an idea on how to get it, but get it.

The supplements I would consider are:

Fish oils, for the reasons mentioned

Antioxidants, per se and for the fish oils
vit C (water soluble) and E (lipid soluble) as antioxidants, the best (the natural and more bioavailable) vit E is D form (d-alpha-tocopherol) but it is more expensive than the common mix dl. Anyway, I would not care too much. Take vit E with foods with fat/oil.
Of course there are many other good antioxidants but they are more expensive.

If you do not want to buy C and E you can also increase antioxidants with almost any herbal tea/caps like green tea, black tea (less EGC), rosmarinus, gotu kola, equinacea, etc. and also spices are very good and not expensive, like cayenne, ginger, curcumin, etc. and fruits like berries.

As you mentioned histamine I recalled that relation histamine/methylation. Even if such relation is not so valid, methylation is related to energy production and you also mentioned problems with this. Read chapter 10 on www.mind-boosters.com (an all the book, it is conservative but easy to read and fairly good).

Then I would add:
TMG (Trimethylglycine), it is cheap, tastes very good (sweet).
maybe methionine, I don´t know much about this one.


B vitamins:
B6 and B12, to lower homocysteine. B12 if I remember well it is a methyl donor too and it is frequently used for energy.
B6 works in neurotransmitter production (there is a coenzimate form, but I never tied it).
I would avoid the folates for some time to see if it works.

minerals
Calcium, magnesium, zinc
organic salts are better but more expensive.

and if you can, Inositol (high dose inositol is used in depression, but you already have medication)


That could make the basics.

I would use theanine for relaxation (never tried it but read repots). If it does not work, there is till alprazolam, maybe once you can sit and do your work you no longer need it.

Then with time and results you see you can add more.

Creatine showed in a study with vegetarians that it improved cognition.

Some people tell piracetam+creatine combo is very synergistic, you may consider it. Both piracetam and creatine are available in powder at reasonable prices.

Good luck

Edited by noos, 08 August 2004 - 12:54 AM.

Nootropi my schedule is as follows:
AM:
-150-300mg Manerix (Moclobemide).  (Irriversible MAOs?  Don't know...I sure hope not…that doesn't sound too safe.  What exactly is this Cheese effect? And which foods need I avoid?)
-1g Omega 3
-1g mixed Omega 3,6,9
-Multivitamin (Costco or Source Naturals Multi ---)
-Calcium/Magnesium - 300mg/175mg
-Sometimes additional Selenium 100mg
-Sometimes 1g Spirulina
-2g Gingko leaf extract

PM:
-150-300mg Manerix

When needed:
-Antihistamines - I have had allergies (especially to animals), asthma and eczema for as long as I can remember.  But they have all more or less been under control for years until recently.  I have been having major skin issues for a few months now.  My skin has just been in the worst shape I can remember it. To control some of the itch I take antihistamines when needed.  It may partially as result of increased stress but I not really sure.  Also take Acidophilus.
-Sleeping aids - I've been given a prescription for Xanax but have not yet used it.  It seems like there might be some potent natural alternatives with L-Theanine (maybe Kava although Noos pointed out it's not a good idea).  I also on occasion use either a valerian/hops/passionflower supplement or Lorazipam for a deeper sleep.

Do you think I should try and drop the MAOs?  Will this regiment allow me to do that?  While Manerix has been the best of the antidepressants to date and has helped to some degree, it has not done so as much as I had hoped.  That said, given the MBA I can't afford to fall into a poor state if ye know I mean.  I've tried so many of these drugs before and none have provided a solution as they all have had side effects or have been unable to deal with or often exacerbated the fatigue and cognitive issues. 

Okay, PoM, I did a bit of reading about your MAO inhibitor. It does not seem to be too well known or prescribed. It is kind of an oddball med, it seems. If you are having success with it, even mild success, then I think you should stick with it.

Okay, as far as a nootropic stack here is what I would advise for you, considering your budget:

ALCAR 800 mg 3X a day (empty stomach, at waking, before lunch, late afternoon)
K-RALA: 500-650 mg 3X a day (take as much as 900 mg/day; my urine smells a lot like sulphur, but hey; I don't mind; at least my brain and body are exposed to minimal oxidative stress!!! [thumb] ) (empty stomach, at waking, before lunch, late afternoon

Aniracetam 750 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
Piracetam 1600 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
Idebenone 50mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
Pyrinitol 250 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch (guage your response first at 250 mg before raising the dose, but generally very safe)
Phosphadityl Serine 250 mg once per day with breakfast
Picamilon 100 mg 2X per day;once with breakfast once with lunch
Sulbutiamine 200 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
Vinpocetine 10% 100 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
300 mg Centrophenoxine
Bedtime: 500 mg L-Theanine and 500 mg phenibut (at that dose can be taken daily)


The reason I am suggesting this exact stack is:

1. Proven by science: Each of the elements in this stack have been clinically proven to improve memory and/or reduce anxiety in animals and or humans; AND they are COMPLETELY safe at the indicated doses; even considering your current regimen.

2. Cost effective: You can purchase a three-six month supply of this exact stack at smi2le.biz click the image; get free shipping, and 2,000 empty capsules, and still have money for a scale, cap 'em quick, and the accessory tamper (I will get to that in a moment.). Show Mr. Smi2le my recommendation and ask him for a quote for both a three and a six month supply. You can call him (or email him); his phone # is available at his website.

3. Powerful: This particular mix, along with your current stack should enable you to maximize the potential of your learning abilities, meanwhile minimizing any negative side effects.

You need to purchase a scale: (click the image) , cap 'em quick, (click the image) and the cap em quick accessory tamper.

Also: you need mortar and pestle -- 600 ml (click the image):

Once you get all of these elements, come back for help!

Please note: DO NOT EXPECT RESULTS (i.e. do not expect to be composing symphonies nor solving tenser equations of the third degree) OVERNIGHT!

I suggest you reevaluate the effectiveness of this stack after three continuous months at the indicated doses. The only way (and I know I have said this before) that such an elaborate nootropic stack will ever deliver benefits will undoubtedly be determined by your ability to take the same doses at the same times every day AND will be contingent on your ability to continually strive to challenge yourself intellectually and/or spiritually (depending largely on your practice of both) on a daily basis.

There are many more supplements that I would suggest; however, we are trying to stay within your budget, right?

Edited by nootropi, 20 January 2005 - 04:38 PM.

Alas! My account works! Sorry for such a long delay in response. My interest and pursuit of a better state of mind has not dwindled in the least. I have been unable to reply until now as I have been in the midst of relocating cities this past week and my account for some reason wouldn't allow me to log in (were others having difficulties? ).

Thank you both for such detailed responses and suggestions. I have so many thoughts and questions I would like to share with you. I'm still getting settled and don't yet have internet access at my place so just a few points until I have a bit more time...

Noos, I agree with you on seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist in my case. I have previously done so and think it is quite important and beneficial. Expensive but if I'm going to turn my life around it is an important element.

Nootropi, Thank you for the detailed list. Don't mean to drive you crazy but as I am unfamiliar with most of the supplements you mentioned, might it be possible for you to provide a brief explanation, (a sentence or two), next to each as to the processes they enact upon and to the basic benefits they provide (i.e. the purpose for taking each). Will any of them help in the short term (i.e. will I notice any immediate benefits)? If so in what way?

I noticed you didn't include Ashwagandha or Deprenyl... Are they redundant given the list you provided? What exactly do they do? I only mentioned those two because I noticed they have been discussed considerably in the forums.

How important is it to cap them? Can't I just weigh out the individual proportions for two weeks and mix them all together and take the proper relative weight of that mix?

Why by the way is "The only way... that such an elaborate nootropic stack will ever deliver benefits will undoubtedly be determined by your ability to take the same doses at the same times every day"? Surely taking the supplements at different times of the day won't reduce the effectiveness of the regiment?

Anyway, pleased that everything in that list is proven and safe and that it's a pretty simple 2x/day regiment... Can't wait to get started!

Thanks buddy,

-Peace of Mind

Moclobemide is a reversible inhibitor of Mao-A. It's unlikely to cause the cheese effect. I've taken both Manerix and Deprenyl before(not at the same time.) I didn't get much benefit from Manerix and the Deprenyl caused a lot of anxiety and made me scatter-brained. It definitely wasn't helpful for OCD. I'm currently taking Parnate and it's helped a lot with anxiety, concentration, verbal fluency, etc. I could give you a link for it if you're interested in trying it out.

For someone who has the opposite problem of OCD would Deprenyl be helpful, what I mean is would it increase motivation?

Edited by cosmos, 18 August 2004 - 12:05 AM.

Peace Of Mind,

Check out the list of supplements I take: http://www.imminst.o...T&f=6&t=4123&s=

For anxiety I can definitely recommend inositol. I got the idea because I love redbull so much, and began researching the ingredients. There was a study of OCD and anxiety symptoms completely relieved by 18g of Inositol divided into 3 daily doses. I don't take 18g though.
I combine 4g Inositol, 1g Glutamine and 2g Taurine along with 100mg of Niacinmide.

CDP-choline is good, once you run out of that, try Alpha GPC. It is the best choline supplement I've ever used. Also, Phosphatidylserine w/ bacopa is good. I buy most of my stuff from Beyond-A-Century. For all other stuff on my list you can go to http://smi2le.biz/Products.shtml

Nootropi, Thank you for the detailed list.  Don't mean to drive you crazy but as I am unfamiliar with most of the supplements you mentioned, might it be possible for you to provide a brief explanation, (a sentence or two), next to each as to the processes they enact upon and to the basic benefits they provide (i.e. the purpose for taking each).  Will

I have to get ready for bed now. I do not have the time today to answer your questions, as they do require a bit of my effort; as I would like to give you a response worth your time.

For now, point your browser to www.pubmed.org and enter into the search engine each of the nootropics I suggested and do a bit of reading on them. That way you have all of the data doctors have; it just is a bit challenging to decipher all of the terminology; however, I suggest you spend the time reading up on these as there is quite a bit of interesting data that you may find useful.

Take care,

Noot

Stellar, from the little I know your regiment looks pretty good. I'm gonna follow the regiment Nootropi listed but I'm wondering about some other supplements such as inosital, bacopa, which you mentioned and ashwaganha, carnosine and Alt-711. Wanna take them all but budget is a bit tight and not sure if they're redundant or are as beneficial.

ALCAR
R-ALA or K-RALA:
Aniracetam
Piracetam
Idebenone
Pyrinitol
Phosphadityl Serine
Picamilon
Sulbutiamine 200
Vinpocetine 10%
L-Theanine
phenibut
Centrophenoxine
inosital,
bacopa,
ashwaganha,
carnosine
Alt-711


I tried looking up info for the above list on PubMed but it's all jargon to me. I'm not sure what each of these really does, which are the most essential, which are the most beneficial for what and to what extent. It is difficult to figure out which are redundant. Be cool if there was a dictionary/definition of supplements as one of the permanent threads in this forum. When I do a search on the web I get so many different sites with such diverse product descriptions and uses. It is difficult to know which explanations are ligit... especially with regards to our specific nootropic interests (as opposed to the many illnesses these supplements are also being used for).

Peaceofmind,

There actually is such a thread (sort of). If you read the first post dated May 16, 2004 on a thread called: LifeMirage's Antiaging-Nootropic Regimen, Drugs, Diet, and More... you will find much but not all of what you want e.g. phenibut is not listed. Something like this with enough explanations so newcomers would understand what e.g. Glycation Inhibitors and Mitochondria Antioxidants are would be helpful. I'm short on time now, but if I have time later I'll come back and post some further info

Scottl you may notice that right after the date is an underlined hyperlink to each specific post. There are two ways one can cross reference here in this forum, one is by copy/pasting the link for the entire thread from the address window and the other is to link directly to specific posts.

Depending on what OS you are using you should be able to simply right click the link, copy and then paste into your post here (or anywhere else for that matter) that link and as long as you don' corrupt the command with any extra punctuation or letters it will post as an active link to the specific previous post.

Try it everyone and it will make cross referencing much more precise as you can target specific posts, not only whole threads.

Scott, is that the Q&A thread you are referring to? Nootropic Q&A If so, I actually have read through that and like you said it does have a bit of info but unfortuanately most of what I'm looking for is lacking (or dated).

Nootropi, Thank you for the detailed list.  Don't mean to drive you crazy but as I am unfamiliar with most of the supplements you mentioned, might it be possible for you to provide a brief explanation, (a sentence or two), next to each as to the processes they enact upon and to the basic benefits they provide (i.e. the purpose for taking each).  Will any of them help in the short term (i.e. will I notice any immediate benefits)?  If so in what way?

ALCAR 800 mg 3X a day (empty stomach, at waking, before lunch, late afternoon)
R-ALA or K-RALA: 200-250 mg 3X a day (take as much as 900 mg/day; my urine smells a lot like sulphur, but hey; I don't mind; at least my brain and body are exposed to minimal oxidative stress!!! ) (empty stomach, at waking, before lunch, late afternoon

Look, I am going to refer you to other sources of data on the Internet for now because I do not have the time to ansewer your questions effectively.
I really do not like doing your googling for you:


Why do I suggest these?

Read this article

Aniracetam 750 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch
Piracetam 1600 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch

These two pyrillidone derivatives have proven to be effective at improving human memory and brain metabolism.

read this, compare the price to smi2le, you will see what a deal you are getting!

Idebenone 50mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch

read this

Pyrinitol 250 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch (guage your response first at 250 mg before raising the dose, but generally very safe)

read this

Phosphadityl Serine 250 mg once per day with breakfast

http://www.lef.org/m...port_ps_01.html

Picamilon 100 mg 2X per day;once with breakfast once with lunch

read the studies at the bottom of the page

200 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch

SULBUTIAMINE (ARCALION):

Sulbutiamine is a new compound that has been described as being like
Hydergine only better. It has been shown to facilitate wakefulness, improve
long-term memory, speed up reaction time, decrease anxiety, and increase
overall resistance to stress.

DOSAGE: To combat fatigue take two 200mg tablets per day, always with
breakfast or an AM meal, for a period of 20 days. Do not exceed three tablets
at any time as this very powerful substance may cause severe headaches. Other
than this, Sulbutiamine has no known adverse side effects.

SOURCES: Sulbutiamine is not sold in the United States. It can be purchased
by mail order from the address below.

Vinpocetine 10% 100 mg 2X per day; once with breakfast once with lunch

read this

Bedtime: 500 mg L-Theanine and 500 mg phenibut (at that dose can be taken daily)

read this

read this

Bedtime: 500 mg Centrophenoxine

read this

I noticed you didn't include Ashwagandha or Deprenyl... Are they redundant given the list you provided?  What exactly do they do?  I only mentioned those two because I noticed they have been discussed considerably in the forums.

No, I recommend both. 1 gram a day of Ashwahandha standardized to 1.5% withanolides, 1 mg a day of liquid deprynl (liquid is best because 1 drop is exactly one milligram).

How important is it to cap them?  Can't I just weigh out the individual proportions for two weeks and mix them all together and take the proper relative weight of that mix?

No, you probably should not do this. We do not know enough about many of these supplements to assume that they will not react negatively when encapsulated together; however, it is completely rational to mix supplements that are similar molecularly; such as two pyrillidone derivatives, or vitamin B analouges.

Why by the way is "The only way... that such an elaborate nootropic stack will ever deliver benefits will undoubtedly be determined by your ability to take the same doses at the same times every day"?  Surely taking the supplements at different times of the day won't reduce the effectiveness of the regiment?

The reason why you need to take supplements at the same times every day at the same dosages is really for a common sense reason: your brain will function best when it is subjected to the least possible variation in the chemicals it is processing. I would actually not be all suprised that when first implementing a new supplement regimen that your mental performace will actually be worse than it was prior to the implementation--at least initially. It take about one to three months for your brain to make adjustments to radical changes to adapt to its higher fuctioning level.

And I forgot to add that you NEED to take a daily "full spectrum" multivitamin, as well as an additional B complex.

Much appreciated Noot. I did do some googling but there was so much junk and sites hawking products that I wasn't sure which info to trust. I figured you might be able to direct me towards that which might best apply to my circumstance. Those links were way helpful.

I'm good to order now. Basically gonna do everything on your list and Ashwagandha. If there was any I was to drop (which is unlikely) which one or two would you suggest?

Regarding mixing everything together, doesn't it all do that in our stomach anyway? You really think they could react over a couple of weeks in dry form in a container? I know I'm dwelling on that point but it's just cause I'm REALLY tight on time to have to cap all these items. I'm still leaning towards downing a teaspoon (or the adjust weight) of the mix with water!

Anyway I'll keep you posted on my progress!

Cheers,

PoM

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

[quote name='peaceofmind']Regarding mixing everything together, doesn't it all do that in our stomach anyway?  You really think they could react over a couple of weeks in dry form in a container?  I know I'm dwelling on that point but it's just cause I'm REALLY tight on time to have to cap all these items.  I'm still leaning towards downing a teaspoon (or the adjust weight) of the mix with water![/quote]

Hmmm, well yes, technically these chemicals do mix together in your stomach; however, your digestive track operates quite differently than the conditions inside of a capsule.

Your body can "process" several chemicals simultaneously; however, while processing chemicals that share absorption algorithms, bioavailability may be comprimised.

These might help to aid your understanding of bioavailablity:

[quote name='http://rx.magazine.tripod.com/ah_20001023.htm']bioavailable (adj.) [beye-oh-uh-VAYL-uh-buhl] Bioavailability is a good thing. Look for supplements that promise bioavailability -- it means that the nutrients are easy for the body to absorb and assimilate. A word of caution, however: Just because a product claims to have "enhanced bioavailability" doesn't mean that it does. Do your research. (See chelated and colloidal for examples.)[/quote]

[quote name='http://www.nucycletherapy.com/minerals/iron.htm']Bioavailability is defined as the proportion of a given nutrient in a given food which the body can actually utilize ( Hambraeus, 1999). With the ability of the body to absorb iron such an important issue, the form of iron and type of diet can have a large impact on iron nutrition. For example, vitamin C consumed in the same meal as plant-based sources of iron improves iron absorption by up to 50%. Meat sources of iron also increases the absorption of non-chelated iron. Some foods and condiments interfere with iron absorption. Tea, coffee and certain types of fiber (e.g. phytate) can inhibit the absorption of iron, as can calcium supplementation (Benito and Miller, 1998).[/quote]

You could save considerable time by purchasing Cap em Quick, the cap em quick tamper, a mortar and pestle, empty caps, etc., and spend a few hours per month encapsultating a months' supply; or go pay over ten times as much cash for the same thing preencapsulated. [ang]