Supplements are great but..

Started by lifemission , Sep 16 2005 08:21 PM

Please log in to reply

46 replies to this topic

#1 lifemission

Guest
41 posts
1 ₮

Posted 16 September 2005 - 08:21 PM

Just somthing I wonder about alot lately.. I understand that some things are simply unavailable in foods, but I thought it's been shown that isolated vitamins, amino acids, minerals etc are'nt as good as getting them from food. Since whole food has all of the ideal components for proper and proportionate utilization.
Refined flour and sugar cause huge insulin spikes and dips while sugars in fruit and veggies digest in more of a "timed release" fashion with the proper accompanying nutrients, same goes for whole grains..so why would it be any different for isolated amino acids and vitamins? I have read that our bodies are not equipped to handle things like pure amino acids, and it is unknown what long term supplementation with such things can do..
I take things like B-50 complex, when I feel I need it, and have experimented/am experimenting with various aminos and things like Acetyl-L Carnitine/Alpha Lipoic Acid etc. I like the effects of several of these things, but I'm still unsure if I am really doing my body a favor or not. If ALCAR creates more free radicals that need to be balance by ALA, is this really going to help me in the long run, or just needlessly accelerate things?

Maybe it's just harmless "preventative supplementation?"

I'm 26 so maybe these should be reserved for when I'm "over the hill"?

Maybe the messed up environment/contaminated food supply begs that we defend ourselves with an arsenal of isolates?

Herbs are a whole other situation..while some alkaloids etc. MUST be separated from the toxic aspects of the whole plant source, I think we should not forget the power of some whole and (when possible) fresh herbs, as opposed to extracts etc..

I don't feel strongly one way or the other, like I said, I take various supps and am adding/subtracting more to my regimen from time to time, I also do my best to eat well, but I often cannot afford/or do not have a source for all organic, meats, dairy and produce etc....
I just wanted to hear some other opinions and raise some questions about whole vs. isolated forms of nutrition that I feel are fairly important to everyones future..
Thanks
Beau

#2 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 16 September 2005 - 09:19 PM

I very much agree with you. That's the reason i've recently cut out most of my supplements and I'm trying to ehance my diet even more. No need to say that I now sleep much better (guess i had choline overload), and my mood is pretty much same all day long which means i feel good. I currently take these supplements: deprenyl, multivit, vit c, fish oil, creatine, bacopa, milk thistle, dandelion root, artichoke extract, green tea. So it's mostly herbs, at the moment i cut out: all racetams (only take when needed), caffeine, dmae, centrophenoxine, AGPC, choline citrate, huperzine, vinpocetine, tyrosine, DLPA...and maybe some other can't remember. I didn't take them all at the same time of course

Anyway i might include some of them again for some periods but the way i feel and sleep now is much much better.
As for my future supplements i'll try to base it around different herbs. Like bacopa which i'm not yet sure of effects but i think it does have some positive effects on me.

#3 scottl

Guest
2,177 posts
2 ₮

Posted 16 September 2005 - 09:40 PM

FWIW:

basic health promoting steps:

--sufficient water

--sufficient protein

--good multi:

-------------Includes sufficient B vitamins including folic acid (really can't easlity get enough from food)
-------------Trace minerals (good luck getting enough from food)

--vitamin C: can't get anywhere near enough from diet

Vitamin E: ditto

--non trace minerals: possible but not easy to get enough e.g. calcium/magnesium from food

--sufficient omega 3 fatty acids: good luck getting enough from food (and not getting toxic amounts of heavy metals)

See a trend?

These are fundamentals way before one starts to get to things like acetyl carnitine.

Clearly eating a healthy diet is a good idea, but it ain't going to replace basic fundamental supps.

my 2c on the matter.

Edit: at 26 years old, a good multiple, 500mg c twice a day, 400 IU mixed tocopherols, and 500 mg "EPA/DHA" + calcium/magnesium from food would be a good and simple/not too expensive way to go.

#4 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 16 September 2005 - 09:59 PM

i agree with scott totally...

the problem with modern food, even fresh veggies & grains... is that modern farming procedures have managed to make the plants produce much less of their vital essential compounds(vitamins, antioxidents, etc)... especially non organic, which can produce up to 80% less vitals than organic. 'core' supplements like a good multi & omega3 are a MUST for anyone who wants to live a healthy life, theres just no way around it.

but really... good diet is what it comes down to. supplements are just that, supplemental...making up for what todays world deprives you of. they should be the icing on the cake that is your good diet.

as far as what you want to add on to your 'core stack'... thats up to you. therhe are plenty of things out there not readily available from food that will improve your life. just make intelligent, well educated decisions... and dont be impulsive and quick to try/buy things because you hear people on the internet talking about them.

#5 lifemission

Topic Starter
Guest
41 posts
1 ₮

Posted 16 September 2005 - 10:38 PM

Thanks fpr the reassuring replies, I resonate very much with the advice and opinions you have given.
Thanks for the basic rundown scott, I appreciate a little simplification.
I take fish oil, Rexall (from walmart) brand 1200mg 2-3 x daily. Do you guys think it's important to buy the expensive stuff?

Is ZMA a good source of Zinc and Magnesium?

Any recommendations for a good but inexpensive multi?

da sense: I stopped with the choline citrate, AlCAR, Piracetam, Aniracetam, DLPA, and Taurine too. I was feeling wound too tightly with racing thoughts so I thought I would take a break and maybe start again, with one thing at a time and go more slowly. I've been feeling better, I think I was just overstimulated, I started having caffiene with all of that and I understand that it synergizes with things like piracetam etc. so that was a likely reason also.
It was great at first but I quickly started experiencing a snowballing effect, like maybe I needed alot less of each in order to maintain the desired effect.
When I get my capper next week, I'll be able to dose more accurately. Until then I'm keeping it simple.
Thanks again..

#6 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 17 September 2005 - 03:26 AM

As for fish oil, it's good till it provides at least 30% EPA/DHA and doesn't contain heavy metals. I belive most of the people here use "cheap" fish oil.

Good multi should provide you with enough zinz, and ZMA is usually not good sufficient source of magnesium. Look for magnesium malate that provides 150-200mg of elemental magnesium as it has good absorbtion. Magnesium oxide that's often in multis and other combined products has poor absorbtion.

I personally use NOW Foods ADAM superior male multivit. 2 caps a day, good basic/inexpensive multi, but you need to get extra c, e, magnesium/calcium like with most of the multis.

#7 Pablo M

Guest
636 posts
-1 ₮

Location:Sacramento

Posted 18 September 2005 - 01:03 AM

You are right, lifemission, in the sense that supplements cannot replace food, and any amount of supplementation will not make up for a bad diet. However, I feel there are many worthwhile supplements that improve health, promote longevity, etc. My own diet includes lots of plants rich in antioxidants and liberal amount sof green tea.

As Scott L mentioned, it is damn near impossible to get enough C from diet. Of sure, I could get optimal amounts of vitamin C exclusively from food if I followed the diet of a mountain gorilla, gorging on fresh shoots and leaves or whatever mountain gorillas eat. Apparently they get 4.5 grams of C this way. But that's not realisitc. So I can pop a few pills instead to make sure I am getting optimal amounts. It would take a lot of grapes, or else some wine, to get much of an antioxidant benefit. The grapes would have too much sugar and I don't like to drink a lot. So instead I can take a grapeseed extract pill. Voila!

Keep in mind that even though nature has provided us with a variety of extremely healthy food, nature also did not "design" us to live much beyond 30 years old. Eventually, the ravages of aging will catch up to you no matter how much kale, blueberries and green tea are in your diet. Does that sound fair to you? I think not.

#8 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 18 September 2005 - 02:07 PM

anyone who uses 'cheap' fishoil is a FOOL...as its probably one of if not THEE most important thing to make sure your getting something that absolutly pure... and despite what any cheap walmart brand says, it is NOT... please see my comments here: http://www.imminst.o...f=6&t=7530&st=0

#9 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 18 September 2005 - 04:59 PM

it's really not nice to insult people and call them fools

when you provide real lab evidence that my cheap puritan fish oil is impure and bad for me, and reliance is as you say "absolutly pure", i'll accept being a fool
till then, please refrain from such bold statements

#10 xanadu

Guest
1,917 posts
8 ₮

Posted 18 September 2005 - 07:24 PM

I have to agree with da sense.

#11 caliban

Admin, Advisor, Director
9,154 posts
587 ₮

Location:UK
✔

Posted 23 September 2005 - 08:04 PM

This topic was corrupted and has been recovered.
The last two recorded posts read:

Posted by ajnast4r on Sep 19 2005-03:20
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (da_sense)
it's really not nice to insult people and call them fools

when you provide real lab evidence that my cheap puritan fish oil is impure and bad for me, and reliance is as you say "absolutly pure", i'll accept being a fool
till then, please refrain from such bold statements

eating cheap fish oil IS foolish.. and if you give me your fax numbers i will fax you assays from all the popular fish oils.

im not speaking ignorantly man, i have the COA's at my work.

Posted by lifemission on Sep 21 2005-17:11
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I may be a fool but I'm not stupid, [thumb] BTW it's also easier to communicate information and be respected if you say things nicely. [lol] What's really foolish is jumping to conclusions.. You'll see here that even the cheap stuff I buy at wal-mart is molecularly distilled..and passes the most stringent standards. (Your puritan brand does also da sense

Molecular distillation is fairly standard.. The FDA allows for 2,000ppb of PCB's, [b]but the EPA(Environmental Protection Agency) and California Prop 65 only allow 90ppb PCB's assuming consumption is 1000mg per day.

#12 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 24 September 2005 - 09:23 AM

ajnast4r
who did the COAs?

#13 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 26 September 2005 - 03:38 AM

i appologize for the fool comment

ajnast4r
who did the COAs?

independant labs... any reliable company has independant certs

You'll see here that even the cheap stuff I buy at wal-mart is molecularly distilled

my understanding is that there are different levels of mollecular distilation... that its not just a general term.

..and passes the most stringent standards. Your puritan brand does also da sense Molecular distillation is fairly standard.. The FDA allows for 2,000ppb of PCB's, [b]but the EPA(Environmental Protection Agency) and California Prop 65 only allow 90ppb PCB's assuming consumption is 1000mg per day.

to my knowledge most 'regular' brands, only meet FDA standards... which is completely unacceptable in my opinion. most of the better COA's we got were WAY lower than what prop 65 allows.

why anyone interested in life extention wouldnt want absolutly the purest products available, is beyond me?

#14 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 26 September 2005 - 05:17 AM

why anyone interested in life extention wouldnt want absolutly the purest products available, is beyond me?

we all do want purest products available, and we all do want mercedes...but i ain't going to spend all i have on mercedes, as other car will do well

it's simple as that

#15 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 26 September 2005 - 07:11 AM

why anyone interested in life extention wouldnt want absolutly the purest products available, is beyond me?

we all do want purest products available, and we all do want mercedes...but i ain't going to spend all i have on mercedes, as other car will do well it's simple as that

i told you reliance fishoil is really cheap, and really pure...and i know a few other companies that are priced pretty well that purchase the fishoil from the same place...

the cheaper car wont slowly tax your immune system and ruin your body either...

#16 Guest_da_sense_*

Lurker
0 ₮

Posted 26 September 2005 - 12:06 PM

you just said few posts above that anyone using cheap fisl oil is a fool, if reliance is really cheap then you're fool too???

ok...i'll stop now

can you post url for reliance fish oil (with international shipping)?

#17 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 26 September 2005 - 01:44 PM

you just said few posts above that anyone using cheap fisl oil is a fool, if reliance is really cheap then you're fool too???
ok...i'll stop now

can you post url for reliance fish oil (with international shipping)?

[tung]

i dont think anyone is gonna ship reliance internationally, but what i can do is get the name of the company(which is canadian based) who supplies their fishoil and try to help you find someone locally whos selling it. i dont remember the name of the company off the top of my head, ill post it tomorrow.

#18 DukeNukem

Guest
2,008 posts
141 ₮

Location:Dallas, Texas

Posted 27 September 2005 - 06:06 PM

One area where supple is hugely important, IMO, is preventing heart disease, the leading cause of death. Food, of course, plays the biggest role in preventing heart disease: stay away from simple sugars, saturated and trans fats, while eating plenty of fish, olive oil, and high ORAC foods.

However, you simply cannot consume enough foods (without getting fat) to get the level of nutritional benefit that is possible with supplementation. The word supplement is pretty much perfect -- supplements are just that, they are not your primary source of nutrients, they are a supplement.

Blood sugar is one of the leading causes of arterial damage, leading to nicks in the inner blood vessel surface, which then get improperly patched up with LDL and platelets, and leading to clots. It is so imperative, from an early age, to keep blood sugar levels low. This is were supplements play a big role, like cinnamon, and Salacia Oblonga (an Indian herb). Fish oils keep blood vessels supple. Fish oil also helps create more HDL, which properly fixes nicks in vessels and helps clean up arterial build-up. Vitamin C also scours away build-up (I take 10 grams daily, spread throughout the day because vit. C has a half-life of 30 mins in the body). There are numerous other supplements that can help, too.

#19 lemon

Guest
389 posts
-2 ₮

Posted 27 September 2005 - 11:47 PM

Not allowing stevia into the food supply is the single worst thing the US government has done to it's own people. I'm dead serious about this.

[mellow]

#20 icyT

Guest
326 posts
2 ₮

Location:Canada
NO

Posted 02 October 2005 - 06:10 PM

The whole-food stuff is nonsense. We just need to find out what kind of synergistic processes make the supplements work best, then we can create them artificially, probably surpassing natural foods if we need to. For example, have you seen whey protein mixes? Great stuff, and it mimics the natural while still being loaded full of awesome stuff. I need to buy some...

When I take my multivitamin, I take it with some milk or cheese or something, anything with fat. That way the fat-soluble vitamins get better or something... heh.

Same applies to lycopene in tomatos. Steam the tomatoes to unbind it from the fibre, then have something with fat in it to consume it better.

#21 lemon

Guest
389 posts
-2 ₮

Posted 02 October 2005 - 07:08 PM

It's good to be optimistic but scientific inquiry into nutrition is limited. To discover every permutation and synergy of every food constituent is an infinite open ended endeavor marked by long and costly research which yield, upon their conclusions, "Further research is needed ... ".

Good luck. In the meantime I will be eating foods, that I understand, are more in-line with my evolutionary ancestors.

#22 tenthman

Guest
2 posts
0 ₮

Location:San Diego, California & Worldwide

Posted 03 October 2005 - 05:14 PM

Hi,

I agree this it's an unwise thing to take any supplement, let alone fish oils, that are not proven to be without contaminants. The products I take are rated #1 in "The Comparative Guide to Nutritional Supplements, 3rd Edition, 2005" by Lyle McWilliam, a highly respected biochemist and independent researcher with the Canadian Parliament of Health.

The fish oil supplement I take is "double distilled" and guaranteed to be 99.9999% free of all contaminants such as mercury, dioxin, pesticides, etc.

The manufactuer of these supplements is a world leading pioneer and scientifitic authority in cell culture technology, immunology, and degenerative disease detection & diagnosis who developed over 30 viral disease tests and assays, and set the "Gold Standard" for developing disease diagnostic tests followed worldwide since the mid-'70s. In a nutshell, he knows his stuff which is one of the many reasons why I trust and his products.

He's devoted the past 40+ years of his life unraveling the mysteries of the living human cell, even growing several billions of them per day at his laboratory and keeping them completely healthy and disease free for the past 25+ years by batheing them in a special "nutritional soup" he designed which provided them all the nutrients they needed to be nourished and protected so they could carry out their intended functions.

His view is that no matter how well one eats, it's impossible to obtain the amounts of nutrients one needs to keep the 100 Trillion or more cells of the body functioning optimally due to genetic predisposition, environmental challenges, contaminants in food, exposure to toxins on a daily basis (smog, car exhaust, second hand smoke, cleaning agents in restaurants/hotels/homes/etc, and so on).

By the way, at the Integral Medical & Health Restoration Hospital he built in 1999, which is the world's most advanced and only 5-Star fully accredited hospital of its kind, they just recently introduced a new procedure whereby they test your DNA to see what degenerative diseases you're "destined" to get and then provide you with a detailed "prevention" program relative to lifestyle, diet, nutritional supplementation, detoxification, what to avoid, what to incorporate, etc.

They also just added a food allergy test that tests for I believe it is 121 different types of food. Good stuff!

If you want more info, drop me an email!

Yours In True & Lasting Health!
TenthMan
Adamson@san.rr.com

#23 rfarris

Guest
462 posts
7 ₮

Location:32° 56' 26" 117° 01' 22"

Posted 03 October 2005 - 05:52 PM

What? It wasn't bad enough that you spammed your MLM in the supplier linklist, but now you're thinking that maybe if you spam here you're more likely to trick people?

Go away Adamson.

-- Rick

#24 ajnast4r

Guest, F@H
3,925 posts
147 ₮

Location:USA
NO

Posted 03 October 2005 - 07:40 PM

The products I take are rated #1 in "The Comparative Guide to Nutritional Supplements, 3rd Edition, 2005" by Lyle McWilliam,

the guy who rated that company #1, works for the same company he rated #1.. so, yea... coincidence i guess [wis]

#25 o2bmdfree

Guest
6 posts
0 ₮

Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:30 PM

I'm awaiting lab test results that will show my fatty acids levels and I'm expecting some recommendations will come with the results. I guess they'll be computer generated. I'm so curious about certain health factors of mine of which I've long been aware, I felt compelled to come to the imminst forums to seek some human input. It's obvious to me that I have pretty widespread cerebral dysfunctions. If I hadn't been emotionally and cognitively dysfunctional all my life I'd surely think I had moderate alzheimer's. What puzzles me is how I can repeatedly fly through "Comprehensive Wellness Profile" types of lab tests with everything seeming to be in perfect order and still feel so rotten. On my last battery of tests my only out-of-range score was on HDL (good) cholesterol where I had 80 mg/dl where the range was 40-59. Anti-depressants don't do a thing for me but intensify my natural sluggishness and disinterest in my surroundings. Drugs that are supposed to give depressed people energy and optimism just make me feel more lethargic and duller. That includes things like Wellbutrin, SAMe, Provigil, the tri-cyclics, SSRIs, St. John's Wort, and Omega-3. How can my health look so perfect on lab reports when I feel like _ _ _ _?

#26 rfarris

Guest
462 posts
7 ₮

Location:32° 56' 26" 117° 01' 22"

Posted 03 October 2005 - 09:54 PM

What puzzles me is how I can repeatedly fly through "Comprehensive Wellness Profile" types of lab tests with everything seeming to be in perfect order and still feel so rotten.

Have you considered candidiasis?

#27 scottl

Guest
2,177 posts
2 ₮

Posted 03 October 2005 - 10:43 PM

Sorry, but sounds like he is depressed.

Far too many things get blamed on candidiasis, etc. that are really mental emotional "stuff" and everyone looks for a pill quick fix.

As a start try this:

http://www.thewayofs...meditation.html

try that as written and better for 2-3 minutes a few times/day.

The fatty acid tests can only tell you where you are vs "normal" people and since no one knows what the optimal values are...

"It's obvious to me that I have pretty widespread cerebral dysfunctions."

What does this mean?

" If I hadn't been emotionally and cognitively dysfunctional all my life "

Ditto

"What puzzles me is how I can repeatedly fly through "Comprehensive Wellness Profile" types of lab tests with everything seeming to be in perfect order and still feel so rotten."

It is not puzzling at all. Pills ain't always the answer (if Lifemirage chimes in with a pill, by all means try it, but pills don't IMHO solve all ills).

Aerobic exercise may be helpful also.

Oh and I'm assuming you're getting enough protein. If you aren't getting....at least say 60 gram protein/day you might try increasing your protein intake just as an experiment. I would not even think of being vegetarian in your present state.

#28 opales

Guest
892 posts
15 ₮

Location:Espoo, Finland

Posted 03 October 2005 - 11:00 PM

Have you considered candidiasis?

Hmmm, are you one of the people saying yeast infections (or the so called yeast syndrome) cause about every malaise known to human. I've understood that candida infection very visible (like oral or vaginal trush) and those other claims (like tiredness, IBD amd other stomach problems just to name a few) have been debunked many times over (those making those claims usually offer some "natural" solution to this problem "ignored by established medical authorities". BS in my view). If canidida does infect blood (in immunocompromised persons), it a very serious condition leading to multiple organ failure, but that is not what we are talking about here I think.

quote from medicineNet.com

Yeast syndrome: The yeast Candida has been thought to cause a syndrome with a number of nonspecific problems including fatigue, loss of appetite, headache, short-attention span, depression and all manner of intestinal irregularities. There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of the yeast syndrome (also called the yeast connection).

I am guessing we are going to have an interesting discussion pertaining to candidiasis

Now I'm stepping out of my expertise, but maybe...low testosterone (or some other hormone)? Don't know your age, but if T-levels are at the lower end of reference values (but still inside them), it can still cause symptoms. Also other hormones should be checked. Avantlabs site has good discussion on these. But really I am no expert, but do know it causes kinda similar symptoms, if you have not checked those out alredy then maybe you should. At least my theory is not as generally controversial as the candidiasis one.

#29 o2bmdfree

Guest
6 posts
0 ₮

Posted 04 October 2005 - 02:12 PM

Thanks, rfarris, scottl, and opales for your input.
"Widespread cerebral dysfunction" is my way of making a short story out of what could easily turn into a personal essay. I'm female, by the way. One telling cerebral sign was my result on a GRE in 1983: 99th %ile in verbal composite; 24th %ile in non-verbal cognitive components. Have ADD big-time with no hyperactivity that translates itself into physical action. Engaging in aerobic exercise is like undergoing torture to me. I don't where my endorphins are or whether I even have any. Serotonin is something I don't think I've ever experienced either. Without Adderall, I don't think I'd have any NE or DA.
Re candidiasis, I had a Great Smokies Comprehensive Digest Anal in Aug. I thought that was going to show whether or not I had candid or other yeast or fungal issues. There was not one word in whole report about that. Report said I had possible pathogens of pseudomonas & citrobacter variety. At pathogen level these bac would cause diarrhea, report said. Diarrhea is one problem I definitely don't have so I didn't pursue treatment for bacteria. These labs don't want to talk to commoners about their test results so I have no idea whether I don't have candidiasis or whether a test for it was not included in the anal panel.
Opales, my Ts are fine in every thyroid assess I've ever had made even though I have most of symptoms of hypothyroidism. I'm sure I have high androgen manufacture for a female, but I haven't pursued testing. What could I do about it, anyway? HRT doesn't look advisable. I'll check Avanlabs discussions.
Thanks folks, for all your brainstorming.

#30 rfarris

Guest
462 posts
7 ₮

Location:32° 56' 26" 117° 01' 22"

Posted 04 October 2005 - 05:07 PM

Hmmm, are you one of the people saying yeast infections (or the so called yeast syndrome) cause about every malaise known to human.

Not at all. I'm not a doctor or a biochemist, or any other kind of chemist, or especially a salesman. I'm a computer programmer. I'm new around here, so I ask a lot of questions. I stumbled on a thread about candidiasis recently and I thought problems related to candida sounded like some of my problems. The part about "doctors can't find anything wrong" sounded like a clue to suggest candidiasis. Now that I think about it, though, your statement sounds logical.

I've understood that candida infection very visible (like oral or vaginal trush) and those other claims (like tiredness, IBD amd other stomach problems just to name a few) have been debunked many times over (those making those claims usually offer some "natural" solution to this problem "ignored by established medical authorities". BS in my view).

So do you think Garden of Life Fungal Defense and Primal Defense are hogwash? It could save me a lot of money if that's true.

--Rick