The Future of ImmInst.org: Open Discussion

Chat Topic: The Future of ImmInst.org
When: Sunday Aug 2nd 2003, 8pm Eastern
Where: http://www.imminst.org/chat
IRC channel #immortal on irc.lucifer.com:6667

The Immortality Institute will host a moderated chat to discuss ideas for future success. Bring suggestions and any technical problems experienced with the site. Discussion will cover the following topics:

1. Technical Problems
2. Membership Benefits
3. Potential Journal Name
4. Wiki Collaborative

Talking Points: http://imminst.org/wiki/ImmInstReport

Thread below contains earlier (July 21) discussion as well.

Contrary to previous plans I am currently still away from my office.
The facilities of the Neuroscience Research Centre Berlin are firewallded and I am not hopefull to find alternative acess routes at 2am tonite.

My apologies as I instigated some of this and would really like to take part in the discussion.
If time permits, I will post a summary of the current discussion from the moderators forums prior to the chat to be considered at your leisure.

Best wishes
caliban

Quite all right. This will give us time to edit the log of any caliban flames .

OK here it goes:

These are the suggestions from the Midsummer discussion paper.
I have paraphrased some comments in full awareness that this might distort them- apologies.
The implicit agreement from BJ and myself to these suggestions is implied. (I hope)

---

---

1.3.1 Establish a working group that looks at ways to segment Imminst projects (e.g: contacts, admin, finances, Gilgamech, links, journal, public relations, policy, different sections of the forum…)

Michael Anisimov: agrees

Caliban: I suggest that any given working group has 2-6 members recruited among the membership by open subscription on a first come first served basis. Working groups should be asked to report bi-monthly in brief and submit a full report 3 months after their constitution. I personally would like to be part of the following groups: admin, Gilgamech, links, journal, biomed section

---

1.3.2 Give members the ability to affiliate their projects with Imminst, while giving them complete control over it. (the Wiki might be a good start in that direction)

Michael Anisimov: agrees

Discarnate: The directors should have a watchful eye on the final outcome deciding whether or not the project fits with the Institutes agenda.

Caliban: While I agree with the caveat, it would be good to rally even differing approaches under a common roof as long as the end result can be broadly agreed on. We should offer projects and individuals the chance to do their thing in affiliation and see how it goes.

---

1.3.3 Establish a formal membership status. There should be a token membership fee. Only members can chair working groups, become navigators (everyone can become an advisor) and vote on Imminst policy.
XxDoubleHelixX: agrees

Mind: agrees

Michael Anisimov: If we call every member an "advisor", doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of nonprofits choosing advisors to advise on specific issues? If we think that purpose has already become weak today, then we need to reinstate it.

Discarnate: Perhaps there should be a difference between those who agree with the philosophy being developed here -"Supporters"? "Adherents"? and those who, like myself, are here to learn, debate, and hopefully grow. I have no problem with the concept, but the details IMO risk alienating some of the diversity of opinion which helps make ImmInst valuable.

Caliban: a contentious point and seemingly difficult to grasp. To clarify: “Members” should be separated from “Visitors” who read and write but have not real sense of affiliation. I did not see this as a tool for raising money, but merely as a tool of acknowledging the membership. I feel this separation is necessary, not only for reasons of democratic decision making but also to gain an insight into who and how many “we” actually are. I maintain that the installment of a formal membership title is necessary. What- if any- the exact membership fees are to be is of secondary importance. My personal view is that they should be nominal- ~8$ a year for the “normal” member.

---

---

2.3.1. Establish a working group that looks at ways to improve the technical details of the forum. This group could also validate “hacks” to improve the forum and appoint one or more technical administrators and tech-savvy advisors.

XxDoubleHelixX: No idea what you are talking about
Michael Anisimov: agrees
Caliban: I still think this is a good idea, but this group needs to consist of people who have a technical understanding to assist BJ with forum details- any volunteers.

---

2.3.2. Move away from the principle that everything is governed by the forums. A journal especially should not be intrinsic part of the forums (although it could of course be linked to if for comments) Also the “distilled info” sections should be separate. (see below on both)

Michael Anisimov: . I still think the forums are very central, and will continue to be for a few years yet. Could change if enough attention got directed to some other area, though.
Caliban: I think this is vital and welcome all developments to move away from the forums. Forums are non-quotable and sometimes non-workable.

---

2.3.3. Make members more aware of their ability to customise their profile and encourage “social” chats in the appropriate places.

Michael Anisimov: Agrees
Caliban: Suggest an Transhuman RPG and storytelling board. :-)

---

---

3.3.1. set up a working group that investigates the creation of an Institute Journal

XxDoubleHelixX: agrees

Michael Anisimov: agrees (but do we have enough volunteers?)

Discarnate: This journal would be focussed on publishing - what? Obviously Immortality/Life Extension, but what else? Biotech? Uploading? Or should it be more limited and only on directly applicable technologies to Immortality/Life Extension? It's a good idea, but I think that's something which needs clarification.

Caliban: this is a group to investigate possible resources, publication venues, focus points, methodology etc. I would like to be on this goup but we should not make assumptions about the journal prematurely. It would also not help to rush this!

---

3.3.2. set up working groups that compile information from the forums and elsewhere into comprehensive information papers (aging theories, cryonics, perception of the “self” etc.)

XxDoubleHelixX / Michael Anisimov: as above
Discarnate: Agreed - read-only sections.

Caliban: I would like to make a start by compiling “aging theories” with the help of Peter and other interested people.

---

3.3.3. install “ambassadors” that make contact to other individuals, groups and institutions and discuss cooperation

XxDoubleHelixX / Michael Anisimov: as above

Discarnate: This is a post which might be limited to 'supporters', whatever we end up calling them.

Caliban: Ambassadors should be openly announced to avoid doubling which looks extremely bad. (if two people try to make a contact without any knowledge about each other’s activities)

---

---

4.3.1. - 4.3.3.

Let us discuss this later.

Chat Archive

<MichaelA> http://imminst.org/wiki/ImmInstReport
<PD> How official.
<MichaelA> Looking forward 1 year:
<MichaelA> * Attract more ocsrazors and calibans
<MichaelA> * Support Speakers (i.e. Kenneth Sills, ravi)
<MichaelA> * Paid Member Benefits:
<MichaelA> o Mailed Newsletter (news and digest of best forum posts)
<MichaelA> o Supporters Forum (paid members forum)
<MichaelA> * Projects:
<MichaelA> o Journal (picking a name for the journal)
<MichaelA> o Wiki (create an immortality encyclopedia)
<MichaelA> We pride ourselves on our disciplined organization, PD ;o
<PD> Why not attract more PD's?
<MichaelA> Heh
<celindra> I notice a sharp increase in visits since last year.
<MichaelA> I like PDs personally, but I'm not sure if that is the official stance of the ImmInst
<PD> Haha
<hkhenson> did you see any effect from ted williams in number of hits?
<PD> I
<hkhenson> alcor had an avalance
<PD> I've never thought of myself as much of a dissenter.
<celindra> What kind of paid member benefits would there be?
<celindra> Like access to a super secret ImmInst gentlemen's club?
<PD> The warm fuzzy feeling of having done a good deed.
<MichaelA> We are talking about various things
<MichaelA> Member forums
<PD> That wouldn't work.
<celindra> And ... why?
<PD> Because no one would post to them.
<MichaelA> The main effect was from deliberate advertisement, Ted Williams had a small effect I believe
<celindra> What advertising has been done?
<PD> Unless you're talking about restricting some of the forums that we already have to paid members, but I would be against that on general principles.
<MichaelA> BJKlein has done outreach stuff to yahoo forums, mailing lists, webmasters, et cetera
<MichaelA> I have done a bit of that too and have gotten some nice returns
<MichaelA> What benefits do you think are realistic to give paid members?
<MichaelA> Free T-shirt?
<PD> Some forums use avatars and signatures.
<PD> Newsletter.
<PD> Honorable mention on the home page.
<MichaelA> Newsletter is another thing we were talking about
<celindra> T-Shirts rock
<MichaelA> Heh
<MichaelA> T-Shirts do rock, a way to show all our square friends how crazy we are about these radical things
<PD> I haven't seen any T-Shirts yet.
<celindra> There aren't any :-)
<PD> :(
<wing_girl> free bumber stickers to all, with the website clearly readable!
<MichaelA> Wing_Girl, that is a wonderful idea
<PD> Yeah bumper stickers would be great. A friend of mine has one of those evolve fish, but I think it sends the wrong messahe.
<MichaelA> What is a reasonable price for membership?
<PD> *message even
<celindra> Nothing over $40
<Discarnate> Michael - Make it graduated. Student 5-10, general member 10-20, etc...
<PD> Negligible monthly rates tend to attract more people, IMO.
<celindra> Monthly rates might be nice
<celindra> $5.00 a month
<celindra> steady income stream
<celindra> Easily afforadable for anyone
<Kissinger> I like that
<Discarnate> Discount on bulk? I HATE making multiple checks out, or whatever.
<Discarnate> IE - 5/month or 50/year?
<hkhenson> you need auto billing to paypal
<Kissinger> go pay pal or merchant account
<Kissinger> different benefits with each one
<MichaelA> $5 a month for students, $10 for adults makes sense
<MichaelA> free bumper stickers are cheap, and the cost of a shirt would pay for itself after 2 or so months
<wing_girl> I think life time memberships are in order lol
<wing_girl> breastfeeding.com used to give out free bumper stickers that said that, it would be easy to sell some here that said ImmInst.org, with a catchy phrase...
<Discarnate> If you're feeling aggressive - anti-memberships should be available as well, for those who DON'T believe in physical immortality
<MichaelA> WingGirl, do you like the ImmInst insignia? (It's relatively new)
<MichaelA> Dis, that's part of why I'm going to a Christian bioethics conference in Sept.
<MichaelA> Having powerful enemies helps
<wing_girl> no my mother in law is a hystotec and thought it had to do with immunity/sicknes
<Discarnate> *nod*nod*
<wing_girl> hey there could be a special now, to give the org. a boost, 200 dollar lifetime memberships...
<Kissinger> But $10.00 a month gives the organization a steady income stream
<MichaelA> Hey Kissinger, nice to see you in chat
<celindra> Income stream is the best goal, trust me on this ....
<ravi> hwo many people would join if there was a fee?
<wing_girl> 120 a year for what?, a bit much... plus money can be invested
<MichaelA> Also, welcome to wing_girl, haven't seen you around regularly either
<ravi> how
<PD> $10.00 is not quite "negligible" though. I think sciforums only charges like $1.50 for membership.
<wing_girl> this is my first time here, I'm a CRON person...
<MichaelA> I'm not sure that the members would approve of investing money in certain things; Mouse Prize perhaps?
<wing_girl> and signed up at cryonics inst.
<MichaelA> Welcome WingGirl
<wing_girl> thanks, I was wondeing what the top of the hourglass is supposed to signify' as it looks like the classic alien face with big black eyes to me... where humans are heading? lol
<celindra> $5.00 is about all I'd pay monthly unless I was getting a newsletter or a shirt
<Sumadartsun> ...apparently it was just me who couldn't connect to lucifer.com?
<PD> It's a bit of a tradeoff. The higher the price, the fewer people will sign up. But if the price is low enough, almost everyone will.
<wing_girl> bit ominous, and that was my six year old's observation
<PD> I guess you could experiment.
<wing_girl> on the prices both could be done, like many other orginizations, for diff. levals of people, how involved they feel, how much extra money they have, etc.
<MichaelA> Jeez, I actually don't know what the top of the hourglass is supposed to signify
<PD> It's a heart, I think.
<wing_girl> what? I would never guess a heart?
<PD> Why not? Looks pretty clear to me.
<Kissinger> no, it looks like a...person
<wing_girl> I thought it was a space/earth air/ground thing
<PD> Maybe we're looking at different things...
<MichaelA> It should be edited to make it look more clearly like a heart, and I would love it if were a heart
<wing_girl> looks like a person from the future....
<PD> This is the logo we're talking about, right?
<Kissinger> yeap
<PD> Top left corner of the page?
<Kissinger> yeap
<PD> Man, I wonder what you people see on cloudy days.
<hkhenson> new book title
<hkhenson> immortal on $5 a month :-)
<hkhenson> anyone know what ralph merkle is up to lately?
<hkhenson> didn't answer his email recently and that's unusual
<celindra> brb
<tmoenk> Merkle recently accepted a position at gatech to my understanding.
<hkhenson> what is gatech?
<Discarnate> Georgia Tech - university.
<hkhenson> ah!
<hkhenson> teaching there?
<tmoenk> http://nanodot.org/a...03/07/16/086230
<wing_girl> I would donate more, if I saw the organization had some power to influence the changing of laws by lobbying etc. so some of the 367 billion that goes to the military might be used to increase the 2 million budget of the National Health Institute's budget, only a portion of which is devoted to anti-aging
<Kissinger> that requires a lot of organization wing girl
<wing_girl> The name and logo look like a immulologist society site... but that could be changed
<PD> lol
<PD> That's what I thought, too.
<Kissinger> logos are tough to make catch and not odd
<wing_girl> well, we are trying to get organized here right?
<wing_girl> members on the board of directors, read these weekly forums do they not? prob help influence the growth of the society
<wing_girl> every thing grows slowly on this Earth
<wing_girl> other than the initial look of the site, I loved the layout and the science, I thougt it was/is well designed
<MichaelA> Thanks
<MichaelA> Bruce is extremely devoted and skilled
<MichaelA> You think the Board of Directors of the NHI read *our* forum..?
<PD> Incidentally, does anyone else think that our dreams of publicity could be brought one step closer to actualization by more of a >Hist presence on general serious and quasi-serious fora?
<Kissinger> absolutely, like current medical breakthroughs, etc.
<wing_girl> The CR society sometimes gets good press, I was just at the conf. and was interviewed by a reporter from the Oprah magazine, I will be in the October issue if you want to check it out...
<wing_girl> vyff...
<wing_girl> is my last name
<MichaelA> Which conference?
<wing_girl> so having a conf. can generate intrest
<wing_girl> the CR society conf.
<MichaelA> I was interviewed by a reporter from Jane magazine, very odd how these womenly magazines are all over the place
<wing_girl> check out their web site... they just re did it
<MichaelA> 2005 is our goal for having a conference
<wing_girl> cool what was the Jane mag. over?
<BJKlein> top of the hr glass = time going backward
<wing_girl> and if they want to interveiw a girl immortalist you can direct them my way, I don't mined
<wing_girl> oh i that the answer? on the hoursglass...
<BJKlein> wing_girl, we'll take you up on that
<PD> I liked my idea better.
<MichaelA> It was about 1) the cosmetic implications of transhumanism, 2) Singularity, and 3) daily life of a transhumanist
<wing_girl> still my kid thought it was an alien...
<PD> Heh @ (1)
<Taskmaster> who would have ever thought.... Jane magazine as the breeding ground of future female transhumanists!
<BJKlein> MichaelA, was this at TransVision?
<Taskmaster> *we need more female transhumanists!*
<wing_girl> pd - serious is great! but marketing and girly mags are needed as well to generate new cultural memes
<BJKlein> celindra, paid members would have access to a 'special' forum
<BJKlein> where questions would have priority
<BJKlein> other than that, at the moment, no other benefit than just saying you're a supporter
<BJKlein> there may be a qrt or half year digest/newsletter of the best forum posts mailed out as well..
<wing_girl> I'm having to get off, but it was great chatting with you all, I'll have to try to get on the actual alotted chat time again! if anyone has any questions for me my email is shannonvyff@yahoo.com, thanks again and have a great evening!
<BJKlein> wing_girl take care
* BJKlein will be back in about 20min
<MichaelA> The cosmetic implications of transhumanism was only a very small part, luckily
<MichaelA> 'I now have the ability to manipulate any molecule in my body to an arbitrary degree of precision..yay, I get permanent makeup now!"
<Mind> hi all
<Mind> what has been discussed so far
<Mind> ??
<celindra> COme now, Michael. Let's not criticize people's arbitrary goals.
<Mind> Have we made any headway, for the future of immminst
<celindra> You have no idea how hard it is to apply foundation everyday.
<Mind> and plans?
<Mind> any goals set?
<MichaelA> People just need to take up training with me, so we can push one another to the limit
<MichaelA> We established that membership would consist of private forums, a newsletter, and a fuzzy feeling, and be affordable, that's about it
<Mind> Push each other to the limit of life extension?
<MichaelA> We got to meet a nice lady from the CRON movement
<Mind> fuzzy feeling? I get the feeling you are being facitious MA
<celindra> No, he's not ....
<Discarnate> Michael - We've also established that a goodly number of people aren't willing to pay very much for ImmInst without seeing it do more than just be a bullitin board.
<MichaelA> That is true
<Mind> How much money for membership?
<MichaelA> Folks want to see ImmInst lobbying, apparently?
<Mind> 50$
* celindra rejects the lobbying idea
<Mind> $10
<Mind> $110
<MichaelA> Conferences, such as a 2005 conference, will be a good media magnet for ImmInst in the future
<Discarnate> $1.50/mo was mentioned, $5 for student/$10 for non- was mentioend....
<Mind> That ain't much
<Discarnate> And both monthly, yearly, and lifetime rates were mentioned without numbers.
<Mind> Still I think a paid memebership is a good idea
<Mind> People "do more" when they have some money into it
<MichaelA> How much would you be willing to pay per month?
<Mind> $13.24
<Mind> but I think $10 is a good starting point
<MichaelA> Agreed
<Mind> agreed
<celindra> People pay for Fark.com -- they;ll pay for this
<MichaelA> I can't believe they do that
<MichaelA> I don't think that ImmInst would be able to do lobbying for at least 10 years, Current Rate No Singularity
<Mind> So what is up with the fuzzy feeling thing?
<MichaelA> You wouldn't feel a fuzzy feeling by donating to ImmInst?
<Mind> It would be more of a furry feeling for me
<celindra> I like wuzzy feelings
<MichaelA> "Fuzzy feeling" is the generalized statement used to signify the benefit of endorphins you get by engaging in a given action, often implying that the "tangible" benefits are scant
<Mind> How many memebrs do you think would pay?
<Discarnate> < 5%
<Mind> 5% of 500!!!
<Mind> that would be 250.00 a month
<Mind> not a bad satrt
<MichaelA> How do you think the money would be best spent?
<Mind> Advertising for more members
<Mind> just the first thing that came to my mind
<Discarnate> Advertising. Conference, sooner rather than later. Things like the methusalah mouse prize - but that falls under advertising
<celindra> What's the dealy with the cons?
<celindra> YO.
<Mind> A conference would be a good idea. When members meet each other they may feel a stronger link to imminst. There is also the social pressure of setting goals
<MichaelA> Social pressure is incredibly powerful and useful, unfortunately
<Mind> When is the next conference scheduled? Soemtime January 2004?
<Discarnate> Also an advantage to having a face-to-face dataflow to set goals.
<MichaelA> In an ideal world we'd be able to motivate one another perfectly effectively long-distance
<ravi> a conference is a great idea!
<Discarnate> Who the hell said this is an ideal world? *LOL*
<MichaelA> I think the social sphere within transhumanism is a more ideal world than the social sphere outside it, generally
<celindra> Conferences are good, because it's a short drive for me!
<Mind> MA...what is the deal whith that anyway...why doesn't motivation work as good long distance. Is it something about physical contact that forms a strogner bond?
<ravi> i think it does
<Mind> I suppose the conference would be in Alabama
<Mind> ??
<celindra> I guess
<Sumadartsun> bye, all
<Mind> What other things do you think membership money should be spent on MA?
<Mind> anyone for that matter?
<Discarnate> Education - but dunno HOW ...
<celindra> T-Shirts!
<Mind> I don't think a newsletter would be much bang for the buck...just preaching to the choir
<Mind> we can get all the up to date news from the web
<Mind> I already bought a t-shirt celindra...you can buy imminst t-shirts from cafepress
<Discarnate> Apologetics, published and distributed to fundy locations - churches, etc.
<Mind> Mine says "why die?"
<celindra> CafePress is inefficient and expensive
<Mind> How about....getting voice over IP connections for all the paying members...logistically tough, right now
<Discarnate> Impractical w/out knowing more about the members, Mind - like computer type, connection type, etc.
<Mind> So you think we could get a bulk order of t-shirts and pas them out to paying memebrs celincra?
<celindra> Yep
<Mind> Discarnate....It would be impractical right now...the reason I mentioned it is that it would bring us into closer contact with each other...hopefully spurring more action
<Discarnate> And it helps cut down on miscommunications - true. But the technical problems are, IMO, formidable.
<Discarnate> Perhaps set up a VoIP area on the board for real-time chats..
<Mind> I wear my t-shirt to the gym...There are many vain people there that I think would be interested in life extension...but you know what, no one has ever asked me about the website yet, I cannot figure out why.
<Mind> Like a VoIP for the Sunday night chats?
<celindra> No one ever asks about my Alcor shirt either
<Mind> Why do you think that is celindra?
<Discarnate> Mind - Not Sunday nights, but some other time.
<Mind> ok
<Discarnate> ANY other time, perhaps.
<celindra> Mind: Because no one cares
<BJKlein> As of now ImmInst Conferences are held in AL in Jan, we have a nice Museum: http://www.artsbma.org/index.htm
<Mind> Have you set a date yet for this years conference BJ?
<BJKlein> yes..
<Mind> ??
<Mind> give it up man!
<BJKlein> http://imminst.org/iwac/ Saturday Afternoon Jan 17, 2004
<Mind> Good...I should be able to make it
<BJKlein> nice
<BJKlein> it'll probably be just a few of us
<Mind> It really isn't too far of a drive for me
<Discarnate> Long haul from here, but not as far as Michael'd have to travel.
<BJKlein> great.. we'll see how many are interested..
<Mind> I will be there
<BJKlein> I have in mind making 2005 more an incentive year for folks to come
<BJKlein> get Peter to help get a few key speekers
<Mind> Are you saying no one cares about dying celindra? or just that they are too lazy to do something about it?
<Discarnate> No one considers cryo, CRON, or other procedures as reasonable, in my experience.
<celindra> Mind: not sure, just know that no one comments on th shirt
<Mind> If we were going to do advertising...where would we get the biggest impact...amongst scientists? college kids? older folks?...
<BJKlein> web ads on such sites as betterhumans may prove fruitful..
<BJKlein> as of now with google ads i can clearly see how much traffic comes in per click/cost
<Discarnate> BJ - How about on places like JAMA's sight or the like?
<Mind> do you buy google ads??. I did not know this
<BJKlein> yes, JAMA is an idea..
<BJKlein> but you know..
<BJKlein> directly contacting people is probably more cost effective
<BJKlein> heh..
<BJKlein> yes ImmInst can be found as a google ad
<BJKlein> type in cryoncis or physical immortalty
<PD> "directly contacting people" sounds too JW for my tastes.
<BJKlein> another cool thing.. we're now #3 when you type 'immortality' into google
<BJKlein> JW?
<PD> Yes
<PD> Those people in the tidy suits who knock on your door.
<BJKlein> PD, you'd be supprised.. a direct email can do wonders if done right
<BJKlein> ahh JA, no i'm talking about emails
<Mind> Why is immortality inc. #1 on the google search....hello! our site is much better
<BJKlein> heh, they've been around a lot longer
<Mind> Oh
<BJKlein> 1996.. vs 2000
<Mind> PD...I got spammed by BJKlein.com, that is how I joined
<PD> A direct email to people you know, or know of. People you've conversed with, maybe.
<BJKlein> see there ya go!
<PD> Well, for every Mind there's gotta be a dozen people who go, "oh, more spam".
<PD> But if it works.
<Mind> 1 out of 13 is pretty good advertising
<BJKlein> PD, of course.. I'd hope the spam days of bjklein.com are behind us
<PD> I still say the best way to advertise is to actually join forums and talk to people about >Hist ideas.
<PD> That's what I do.
<celindra> That requires conversing with people, PD
<BJKlein> now, directly contacting a researcher with something to offer is what im after now.
<celindra> Ugh
<PD> Well, I like conversing with people.
<BJKlein> PD, you're exactly right
<Mind> PD... you mean you go into non-hist forums and discuss Hist topics...and try to move people over into our camp?
<PD> Well, I never actually set out to converse anyone.
<PD> I just throw up a >Hist topic and note the reaction.
<PD> convert, I mean
<PD> And then I join the fray.
<Mind> Maybe I will start doing that
<BJKlein> ImmInst needs to basically attract the forum folks who don't know their immortalist or >Humanist
<Mind> it can't hurt
<PD> There used to be a politics/philosophy/science forum where I was a regular.
<BJKlein> the atheist forums are good hunting grounds
<Mind> keep up the great work PD
<PD> One day I posted a link to the hedonist imperative and got like 30 people into a heated discussion.
<PD> Another day I posted something about the OPT.
<PD> And so on.
<Mind> Just to let you know BJ...I would be willing to pay $10 per month for imminst...as a staring point
<BJKlein> ahh, i was just about to ask..
<Mind> With my budget I might be able to pump in a litle more...but I think $10 is a good starting point
<celindra> 9.99
<BJKlein> would you suggest a student vs employed difference?
<PD> And there are places like iidb and philosophyforums where people are vocally agaisnt >hism but don't very much about it.
<Mind> I have to go now...nice talking with you all (yes student price lower)
<PD> *don't know, that is
<BJKlein> seya Mind
<BJKlein> 10 may be a little high for most..
<BJKlein> per month that is..
<BJKlein> 120 per year
<PD> I think 5 would be good.
<BJKlein> compared to say WTA..
<BJKlein> which i think is 20 student 40 employed
<BJKlein> would people like monthly or just yearly
<BJKlein> or both with more montly
<celindra> both
<PD> The monthly figures are just less intimidating.
<BJKlein> say.. have a montly at 5
<BJKlein> and then a yearly at say student 30 and employ 50
<PD> Alright, well, I'm going to go back to my book.
<celindra> Sounds good
<PD> G'nite.
<BJKlein> seya PD
<BJKlein> Caliban on the future of ImmInst: http://www.imminst.o...t=0
<ravi> bjk if u do have a membership fee i beleive you will be cutting out most high school students and college
<celindra> it's not a mandatory fee
<celindra> It'll be like the WTA
<ravi> oh k
<ravi> sounds good then
<BJKlein> right.. it's not for the whole forum..
<BJKlein> it will just gain the supporter access to one special forum
<BJKlein> where we'll hang out naked and drink atkin's shakes together
<celindra> Woohoo! Gettin nekkid!
<BJKlein> k.. any off the wall remarks about the general layout of the forum/site
<BJKlein> does the homepage seem to load to slowly?
<BJKlein> i fear this, it keeps me up at night
<celindra> According to Alexa, it is very slow
<BJKlein> link?
<celindra> http://info.alexa.co...ww.imminst.org/
<celindra> Look at Traffic Details
<celindra> err ... site stats i mean
<kevin> hello BJ et al..
<BJKlein> welcome kevin
<BJKlein> http://imminst.org/wiki/ImmInstReport
<BJKlein> this will get you up to date
<kevin> thnx BJ..
<BJKlein> Speed: Slow (26th percentile) hmm
<eclecticnrg> well hello there fellow immortalists :>
<eclecticnrg>
<BJKlein> welcome eclecticnrg
<BJKlein> what parts to you hail from?
<eclecticnrg> been a while since i've been here, just decided to drop in to >o.O<
<eclecticnrg> see. :o)
<eclecticnrg> us/mn
<BJKlein> and what got you into immortalism?
<eclecticnrg> good question - hmm... Probably when I discovered your site :o)
<eclecticnrg> cannot remember from where.
<eclecticnrg> btw, i'm chris :o)
<eclecticnrg> ..and you are Bruce?
<BJKlein> really, that's sorta nice.. but you've had reservations about death
<BJKlein> yes, more about me www.bjklein.com i'm Bruce Klein founder of ImmInst
<eclecticnrg> awesome. B:o)
<BJKlein> it's interesting, but i've seen a trend where there a some that just get it..
<BJKlein> and then those that will never ..
<BJKlein> you know kind of like a key that fits into ones mind
<eclecticnrg> ah - but I believe everyone can..
<BJKlein> i've thougth it must be a genetic anomoly
<eclecticnrg> just have to have the right tools to express it to them..
<eclecticnrg> that it sinks in
<BJKlein> i though so to eclecticnrg, in the beginning
<ravi> someone in gainesville, Fl will be celebrating her 104 birtherday...just thought someone would want to knw
<BJKlein> any news on that ravi? link per chance?
<eclecticnrg> you thought so in the beginning?
<eclecticnrg> ..but then you are more of a cynic?
<BJKlein> well, not really..
<eclecticnrg> well - that's good..
<BJKlein> i'm an optimist, very much so..
<kevin> hey all again... that's good news..
<ravi> na it was in our local paper this morning
<eclecticnrg> sometimes - it just takes the right way at looking at things - and they will see it..
<BJKlein> but, i've found that introducing the immortalits meme to people is a strange experiment
* eclecticnrg waves my hands in the air to have the energy of your name go thru me..
<eclecticnrg> Your name of Bruce has made you practical, systematic, and thorough. This name encourages the expression of leadership and organizational skills, shrewdness, and analytical ability. You are mathematically adept and have great patience with work of a detailed nature such as bookkeeping, accounting, or technical research. Particular about your material possessions, you keep everything you own in a good state of repair, and you
<BJKlein> and you.. cut off.
<eclecticnrg>
<eclecticnrg> and why?
<eclecticnrg> do you know the source of my knowledge?
<eclecticnrg> :>
<BJKlein> interesting, so im quite anal
<eclecticnrg> a hint: it's not from me
<BJKlein> some name site i'd guess?
<eclecticnrg> www.kabalarians.com
<eclecticnrg> yes.
<eclecticnrg> names guide our minds..
<BJKlein> i've often thought this..
<BJKlein> quite interesting.
<kevin> BJ: do you think that it is more of resource allocation? Everyone has their buttons...
<eclecticnrg> and it is true.
<BJKlein> like someone named 'Dick'
<kevin> electic... what about the name 'kevin'.. anything interesting?
<eclecticnrg> my uncle told me of a person who's first name was Harry :o)
<eclecticnrg> and his last - well, what you said Bruce =p
<Lukian> :-p
<eclecticnrg> Kevin - check it www.kabalarians.com
<kevin> gracias..
<BJKlein> kevin, are you talking about introductions to immortality meme?
<BJKlein> concerning resource allocation?
<eclecticnrg> it's important to note - names are but one tool that guide our thoughts/experiences, but it is with us throughout life

ImmInst Aug 2 Official Chat

Topic: The Future of ImmInst

Members will discuss how much to charge for
access to the Inner Circle Forum in order to raise
money for a future Immortality conference.
-----

Talking Points

A: Preliminary Points

1) Official Chat Length 60 minutes
2) Planned introduction of a paid membership option.
3) Visit: http://www.imminst.org/join/join.php to see a preliminary template. Suggestions are encouraged.

B: General Issues:
Are there better terms than the following?

1. Free Member
2. Full Member
3. Inner Circle Forum

Is there a better way to word the Join template?

Are there other benefits we could offer or remove?

C: Dues:
How much to charge for subscription?

1. Monthly
2. Student
3. Employed

Reply below if you miss the Aug 2 Chat.

Aug 2 Chat Log:



<BJKlein> Official Chat Starts Now:
<caliban> oh well... lets get started... over to you
<BJKlein> Let's start with the first of 3 questions.
<John_Doe> hello again
<BJKlein> Are there better terms than the following?
<BJKlein> 1. Free Member
<BJKlein> 2. Full Member
<BJKlein> 3. Inner Circle Forum
<Guest> HI ALL
<Sat> expand on what each means please.
<BJKlein> welcome Guest, John_Doe please reference:
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<Jace> i don't understand. if full and inner are the same, why do we searching for separate names?
<BJKlein> Sat: please see http://www.imminst.org/join/join5.php
<Jace> <are>
<Sat> k
<localroger> "Inner circle" conjures up images of alchemists teasing ancient texts as they throw shit in a circle to summon a demon. Or maybe it's just me.
<John_Doe> reference?
<celindra> I like Basic Member over Free
<Utnapishtim> I agree with celindra
<Jace> i like "simpleton"... gives incentive
* caliban agrees with celindra
<localroger> I like "Basic" too.
<BJKlein> Jace, well it's not 'exactly' the same sorry... Full Members are paid members.. Inner is the Forum to which Full Members gain access
<BJKlein> Basic does sound good
<Jace> i understand now, thank you
<Jace> i like basic
<caliban> thats settled then... next
<BJKlein> yep great.. any problem with Full?
<BJKlein> or Inner?
<localroger> Inner is a real problem, suggesting a secret cabal type of thing
<BJKlein> alternative suggestions?
<Utnapishtim> Premium membership doesn't sound bad either
<localroger> "Vested"? Maybe too snooty.
<localroger> Premium?
<celindra> ImmInst Council?
<John_Doe> I am confused? What should I be reading?
<localroger> Council --> I like that.
<caliban> Member Forum
<BJKlein> John_Doe: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<localroger> Like a legislature, representative but not occult.
<Utnapishtim> premium also goes nicely with basic
<Kissinger> executive council
<Kissinger> nah, thats too corporate
<localroger> No, I'm thinking just "Council Member."
<BJKlein> well, there may be a prob. with overlap with Advisor and Director naming
<localroger> Oh right, is it incorporated?
<BJKlein> yes 502c3
<John_Doe> My opinion: the conference registration fee should pay for the conference, not any subscription fees.
<localroger> 'K, that might set some off-limits on "council."
<celindra> YOu might just call it the Restricted Forum or something
<celindra> Or Private Forum
<localroger> I'd just go with "Premiium."
<BJKlein> yikes sorry 501c3
<Utnapishtim> I think premium is nice and neutral
* caliban does not dislike "council" as this might indeed be its function
<Utnapishtim> and easily distinguished from basic
<Utnapishtim> Premium member + premium forum
<localroger> Yes, caliban, but we shouldn't create confusion with the articles of incorporation.
* BJKlein is on the fence on Premium vs Full
<celindra> Brevity
<Kissinger> Full and Basic
<BJKlein> welcome chestnut!!!
<caliban> Full - premium implies something that it is not
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<celindra> Premium goes with coffee and porn sites
<chestnut> hola BJ and everyone..
<localroger> celindra: eek, you're right.
<Kissinger> lol
<celindra> full and bsic are net standards, we should stick with em
<celindra> basic*
<localroger> How about "Volunteer" or something similar? Indicating that one takes greater responsibility without much reward.
<Utnapishtim> Volunteer normally implies giving up ime not money as is the case here
<Utnapishtim> time
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim agreed
<localroger> Well the implication is that in exchange for the extra money one gets influence, which translates to time and thought if it's used right.
<caliban> a member is a member without having to be a volunteer
<Guest> I am trying to chat for first time , am having hard time to find chat rooms
<Kissinger> too confusing, we need to keep it simple
<BJKlein> welcome Guest
<Guest> Thanks
<localroger> How about "Extended?"
<chestnut> Guest welcome to the chat!
<caliban> i think the issue about how to call a member is settled, namely: member or "full member" ?
<haploid> localroger: that line of thought is likely to be completely lost on the anticapitalists, who likely represent the majority of said members.
<Guest> I wonder why I am being called as 'guest'/ my id here is 'super8'
<BJKlein> Guest type /nick super8
<caliban> the current issue is how to call the restricted members forum
<localroger> Well it seems likely that this is about to devolve into phallic jokes so it's not going to be settled at the moment.
<BJKlein> caliban, yes i think Basic and Full will probably work.. if one has further suggestions please post them to the forum topic for futher consideration
<celindra> Full and Basic ... moving on
<Kissinger> yep
<caliban> the current issue is how to call the restricted members forum
* caliban liked council or "members forum"
<Jace> free > nascent member :: trying to equate names with stages of tech, but couldn't come up w/ others :|
<celindra> Brevity calls for "Full Members Forum"
<BJKlein> celindra, good point
<BJKlein> would bypass the other naming questions
<localroger> Yeah, that sounds good celindra. "Full" and then "Full w/forum priv."
* caliban accepts but will only call full members members
<caliban> "Full members forum" it is then
<BJKlein> Basic - Full - Full Member Forum... ok
<Kissinger> simple is good
<Jace> ok
<celindra> Just to clrafiy for all, all paid members get forum access right?
<celindra> clarify*
<celindra> We only have two levels
<Guest1> is this one a basic?
<BJKlein> celindra right..
<BJKlein> there is two levels.. Basic = Free
<BJKlein> Full = Paid
<BJKlein> Free have access to all forums except Full Member Forum
<Guest1> gotccha
<caliban> everybody gets forum access- but only Full membes have acces to the council (Full Members Forum)
<BJKlein> ok.. let's move on to benefits..
<BJKlein> What should Full Members get?
<haploid> Yes - and it only required 20 minutes to make that decision. Giving credence once again to the observation that successful movements are never democracies.
<caliban> now mindful of the time I would like to postpone the next point
<caliban> http://www.imminst.org/join/join5.php
<celindra> Physical items are always nice, BJ
<celindra> Shirts, mailings, whatever
<caliban> as BJ said-- any further suggestions?
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<chestnut> yes good point celindra... hence the book
<caliban> no further suggestions, I take it?
<BJKlein> a magazine would be a nice long term goal..
<celindra> Or at least a glossy newsletter
<BJKlein> but for now.. the intro packet is the only mailing
<celindra> That's good. Not much else needed.
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<caliban> well then.. moving on?
<chestnut> yup
<BJKlein> ready for next point...
<BJKlein> How much to charge for subscription?
<BJKlein> 1. Monthly
<BJKlein> 2. Student
<BJKlein> 3. Employed
<BJKlein> http://imminst.org/join/join_7.php
<BJKlein> 4. Lifetime Member
<localroger> Q. Where does the money go?
<BJKlein> for a yearly conference
<Kissinger> monthly, with the option to go annually with a slight discount, very slight
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<Mind> I like the slight discount for yearly lump sum
<BJKlein> numbers?
<celindra> $5.00 monthly, employed
<caliban> too much
<Mind> Monthly: 10
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<Mind> Monthly 10 employed
<BJKlein> heh Mind your consistant
<celindra> I pay $5.00 a month just to play chess
<BJKlein> celindra on yahoo?
<celindra> ON USChessLive
<celindra> Fark also charges $5 a month
<Kissinger> celindra we should play
<Gewis> so, if I'm a bum, unemployed, can I be a member for free?
<Mind> 8 monthly
<Mind> employed
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<BJKlein> Gewis welcome
<hkhenson> wassail
<BJKlein> Keith!
<Hugh_Bristic> Hey Utna! How ya doin? Haven't heard from you in a while.
<localroger> So how many potential members (realistically) does Imminst have in the near term? In other words, what is the potential funding base?
<Utnapishtim> doing great Hugh!
<Utnapishtim> yourself?
<BJKlein> localroger range 5 - 50
<caliban> I did not see this as a tool for raising money, but merely as a tool of acknowledging the membership. I feel this separation is necessary, for reasons of democratic decision making and also to gain an insight into who and how many “we” actually are. What- if any- the exact membership fees are to be is of secondary importance. My personal view is that they should be nominal!
<BJKlein> caliban numbers?
<Gewis> You could acknowledge membership by other means than asking for money.
<localroger> Caliban, that's fine, but generously then we're talking about $500. That is not going to fund a yearly conference.
<Gewis> But if funding is needed, it makes sense.
<caliban> 20 $ a year
<caliban> funding needs to be sought via other venues
<Mind> So Caliban...you are saying that the amount of money we could raise through montly fees is not enough to do anything with so it should be used more as a declination between motivated members and unmotivated members
<BJKlein> Gewis... one can be a free member and have access to all forums except the Full Member forum
<localroger> OK, $1,000, which is about what I have received from voluntary donations for my novel.
<hkhenson> L5 Society grew to 10,000 on low dues and a lot of work
<BJKlein> localroger link to novel?
<hkhenson> and the paper printers got most of it.
<localroger> http://www.kuro5hin....prime-intellect
<hkhenson> plus the post office
<Gewis> 20 dollars a year sounds reasonable...
<BJKlein> Gewis for student?
<caliban> yes Mind
<Mind> 500 would be enough for a small conference among memebrs
<Gewis> Which works out to 1.67 a month.
<hkhenson> gewis only if the members do all the membership maintence
<Gewis> I would be a student, though, as I am a student.
<celindra> Let's figure a base monthly for employed folks ....
<caliban> 20 Student, 40 others?
<Kissinger> how about $5 month $50 for the year
<localroger> We are talking about trying to jump-start something comparable to the Apollo Moon program. $100,000 is less than nothing in that context, although that could *begin* to fund a conference.
<Mind> 5.00 month employed...thats 60 per year
<hkhenson> first, what is the point of membership? L5 had a goal of getting into space and disbanding.
<localroger> For reference, Allstate just paid me $31,000 for the tree that fell on my house, and it wasn't enough.
<hkhenson> even open ended goals are ok
<BJKlein> hmm.. how about 19.95 student unemployed 39.95 employed developed world and 4.95 monthly ?
<Jace> the point of membership is to gain stake
<Kissinger> we are trying to establish a basic payment system
<Gewis> The question should merely be based on what the creators think that membership in the organization is worth, of course, and if membership is to be worth anything, it can't just be token.
<celindra> Good, BJ
<BJKlein> are the .95 bad?
<Mind> yes
<BJKlein> or just round numbers/
<Kissinger> no
<Mind> round numbers
<localroger> .95 suggest salesmanship
<Kissinger> 95 look more professional
<BJKlein> i hear 2 for round numbers...
<celindra> PayPal is taking a fee rememebr
<Mind> aaccckk
<BJKlein> even now..
<BJKlein> 2 to 2..
<Mind> I'll just send a chack
<hkhenson> I suggest making the collection entirely electronic whatever the amount
<Mind> check
<Kissinger> thats right paypal will take a percentage
<chestnut> round numbers better
<caliban> BK- you mean an *additional* 4.95 monthly?
<Kissinger> so you can forget about even numbers
<localroger> Here is a simple question. The money isn't going to be enough for a conference, and it isn't going to be enough to fund research, so where will it go?
<Gewis> Mind, will you pay for my membership?
<BJKlein> Mind,, paypay makes it easier.. to maintain...
<celindra> Round 'em -- paypal will take about 3%
<Mind> what membership GEWIS?
<BJKlein> caliban.. no just a trial or member monthly 4.95
<hkhenson> but the main point is what are you after doing?
<hkhenson> lobbying for the gov to spend money?
<caliban> oh ok, that is fine
<BJKlein> 3 round 2 for .95
<Kissinger> if someone cant afford it, why dont we have them do some kind of service for their keep
* celindra has funded an 8 team baseball league on $200 dollars -- $500 is enough for a conference
<Gewis> Paying monthly is 50 percent more under Bruce's plan than a yearly fee...
<hkhenson> keeping up the web service?
<Gewis> That's quite the disincentive to pay monthly.
<BJKlein> Kissinger it needs to fair
<hkhenson> and chat?
<BJKlein> Gewis.. 3.95?
<Kissinger> yeah thats true
<BJKlein> instead of 4.95?
<Kissinger> im in favor of 5 monthly or 50 for the year
<Kissinger> i think that is nice and simple
<Mind> Is 5.00 too much for anyone here tonight?
<localroger> Celindra, there's a difference between a local sports league and a thing like this where people must travel. Travel costs money, lots of it on this scale. Hotels, conference rooms, etc. even if all the participants come for free the expenses will be $20,000-$50,000 if it's worth doing at all.
<Jace> no
* caliban is not enthalled by the idea of the "trial membership" at all
<BJKlein> localroger i think your right..
<BJKlein> that's a general goal...
<Gewis> I'd pay 5.00 for a dating service, but Jace is unavailable, and there aren't any other eligible females I'm aware of.
<caliban> OFFICIAL CHAT underway. Please read: http://www.imminst.org/talkingpoints
<hkhenson> local, there are ways to parasite on other conferences
<BJKlein> more would be much better..
<hkhenson> L5 did that for years.
<Mind> is $5 too much for anyone here tonight (per month)
<Gewis> I think 30 dollars a year sounds good.
<Jace> not cool gewis
<Gewis> Which is 2.50 per month.
<BJKlein> until we get there we'll push back the conference date each year
<celindra> $5 or under is good
<caliban> ok - we agree with BJ's figures then?
<localroger> HKH, I'd need to see that spelt out, because I just don't see a place where the money can be put in the amount that will be available that will do any good.
<hkhenson> we get a substantial fraction of what conferences are for right here
<Mind> I like 5/per month 50/per year
<BJKlein> ONE LAST VOTE: ROUND or .95 please
<Mind> round
<celindra> ROUND
<hkhenson> round
<localroger> ROUND
<BJKlein> wow
<bk_2112> round
<Kissinger> you can make it round but the paypal will screw it up anyway
<BJKlein> ok.. well round then thanks
<Gewis> round
<chestnut> round
* caliban despairs
<hkhenson> local, L5 defeated the moon treaty when under a thousand people contributed.
<BJKlein> 20 student 50 employ and 5 month?
<Mind> good
<chestnut> good
<caliban> good
<Jace> round doesn't elicit sophistication
<Gewis> Wow.
<Mind> thats 20 student/year right?
<BJKlein> yes
<Gewis> Jace, fake sophistication is bad.
<celindra> Good
<BJKlein> ok last one..
<hkhenson> bj, if you make the paypal transfer automatic some people might pay more on a per month basis
<BJKlein> Lifetime Membership one time donation...
<localroger> Round is honest.
<Gewis> If we're going to be sophisticated, then we need a genuine cost-benefit analysis which pulls up a number like 4.32 per month.
<hkhenson> but the main point is still, what are you trying to do?
<Utnapishtim> I think if you are asking $50 a year you need to have a clear idea of what you are going to do with this money
<BJKlein> How Much to Become A LifeTime Member?
<celindra> $250 / lifetime
<celindra> or $500
<Kissinger> gewis, you have don't understand marketing do you?
<Mind> a conference Utna
<celindra> $250 is 5 years worth
<localroger> Beware lifetime memberships, they killed many an avicultural society. Little history I know courtesy of GF.
<hkhenson> conferences are just fun, you get entirely stoned on dopamine from all the talking/attention
<Mind> I don't like the lifetime idea
<chestnut> $500 or more if it is for life...i think
<BJKlein> hkhenson
<Mind> we are trying to be immortal afterall
<caliban> $300 per 1000 years... no lifetime membership
<Gewis> Kissinger, it was just a reference to Jace's comment about sophistication, and how rounding makes sense rather than trying to be sophisticated, when we aren't.
<BJKlein> Mind.. noted
<localroger> AOL is still kowtowing to people from the C/64 group they bought who had lifetime memberships.
<hkhenson> chestnut, lifetime should go into an account and the interest yeild pay about the same
<hkhenson> less the chance the organization will go bust
<hkhenson> another group you might look alcor
<BJKlein> good idea
<hkhenson> look at is
<celindra> NRA charges $750 for life, $125 for 5 years
<chestnut> hkhenson: for sure
<localroger> HKH yes, the avicultural society guy said exactly the same thing around 1985. "There are geezers hanging on who joined in 1940" was a memorable line.
<Mind> Utna...I think it is a good idea to start collecting fees even if we don't have a clear plan how to use the money. It establishes a greater bond to the insitute and then when we do have a use for the money it is ready to go
<hkhenson> now there is an an organization with a clear goal
<hkhenson> they want to get all those folks out of suspension and back on the street
<localroger> For my part, I would be willing to establish a greater bond with the institute if I didn't suspect somebody would be using my dues to buy beer.
<BJKlein> again: the money will go to fund a conference in hopefully 2005 or later
<caliban> hkhenson : just for you again: I did not see this as a tool for raising money, but merely as a tool of acknowledging the membership. I feel this separation is necessary, for reasons of democratic decision making and also to gain an insight into who and how many *we* actually are. What- if any- the exact membership fees are to be is of secondary importance. My personal view is that they should be nominal
<Kissinger> our goals and how we spend our resources should be voted on democratically with veto power by the directors and BJ
* caliban agrees with Kissinger
<Mind> voted on amongst paying members or all
<Mind> ??
* celindra asks -- What is the issue on the table?
<Mind> How much to pay
<Kissinger> paying members mind
<Kissinger> others are members only in name
<Jace> are we dispelling of lifetime memships?
<localroger> May I make a radical suggestion? How about making the amount voluntary?
<Mind> we are talking about 20/year/student...50/year/employed...5 per month
<Gewis> Wouldn't it be helpful if specific goals were proposed, and the money required from members to reach that goal? It sounds like we're rather stabbing about in the dark.
<Gewis> Of course, it would have to be reasonable, and acceptable to the group as a whole.
<Gewis> By democratic means.
<localroger> My own experience: http://www.kuro5hin....4/27/195833/305
<Mind> I still say no lifetime option
<Jace> gewis, it's been established that we may not know yet what exactly where the money's going
<Gewis> I know.
<Gewis> That's why I think we're stabbing in the dark.
<localroger> Which is why it makes sense to make it voluntary, like a tip jar.
<BJKlein> LifeTime Membership Option: Yes No?
<Jace> no
* caliban agreed with localogres latest suggestion initially... but there are administrative benefits if a fixed amount is charged
<Mind> No
<caliban> no
<celindra> Yes
<BJKlein> 3 no 2 yes (me)
<Kissinger> what kind of interests can you get
<Gewis> yes then
<Gewis> voluntary sounds great
<BJKlein> even
<Gewis> oh
<Gewis> lifetime
<Gewis> sorry
<Gewis> I retract my vote
<localroger> May I take the podium for a second?
<Gewis> I'm abstaining
<Kissinger> how much compound interest
<BJKlein> 3 NO 2 Yes to Lifetime
<Kissinger> with interest rates so low
* caliban agrees with a very long membership option - just not lifetime
<Kissinger> 2%?
<BJKlein> Kissinger not something to rely upon i'd thinkg
<caliban> 300 years instead of lifetime
<BJKlein> caliban is that a change of vote then?
<BJKlein> 2 no 3 yes
<caliban> no :-)
<Kissinger> no on lifetime membership
<BJKlein> ok
<Mind> 300 is still too long
<BJKlein> Jace any reason why you don't like lifetime?
<Jace> ok... having second thoughts on lifetime... purchasing lifetime gives people more of a secured feeling of being part of something for good rather than temp
<Utnapishtim> No on lifetime
<Utnapishtim> it implies a finitude of lifetime or that the institute will exist forever
<BJKlein> yike Jace changes.. and Utnapishtim chimes in..
<celindra> How about -- Lifetime members get prime access to conferences and such
<BJKlein> EVEN 3 to 3
<Utnapishtim> do you really want to imply either?
<localroger> I never expected to receive anything for Prime Intellect, but I receieved much more than I expected. If what you are working for is worthwhile, that is your expectation. OTOH I received less than conventional publication would have returned, which is in line with the fact that people don't have much money, have other priorities, and so on. Again, if this is to be a populist movement then charges are only going to drive people away.
<BJKlein> celindra that's what Full will get
<Kissinger> did you get my no BJ?
<BJKlein> checks
<BJKlein> no..
<caliban> 100 years?
<BJKlein> 4 no 3 yes
<Mind> people can still particpate localroger....just that there will be special status for paid members
<Jace> vote Lifetime! it's more of an emotional connection for members
<Jace> i think that's important
<caliban> who agrees on a 100 year membership option?
<caliban> me
<Mind> 10 years is the most I would say caliban
* celindra makes sure my Yes vote is recorded
<Gewis> Definitely.
<BJKlein> yes, i agree.. also there are individuals out there who need a tax deduction
<localroger> The thing is, when people gave me money the knew it was going into my pocket, not toward a conference or movement or whatever.
<Gewis> 10 years max if not lifetime.
<Mind> we are talking immortality and singularity type issues all the time 100 YEARS IS FOREVER
<BJKlein> 100 Year Membershiop Option:
<BJKlein> I like it
<Mind> 10 year
<localroger> I mean, isn't the idea at this point really keeping the website up and comm lines open?
<BJKlein> yet lifetime just sound more 'immortality'
<Utnapishtim> IF we have a longterm memberaship option it should be a timeframe that illustrates the ambitious goals of the institute re lifespan
<caliban> well we might have to postpone this (academic) issue into the forums
<Gewis> 100 year is an awfully arrogant assumption, not that you'd have immortality, but that this institute will still exist, honoring the memberships taken in this decade.
<chestnut> i agree is the goal (which it is) is to live forever-the lifetime membershipr reinforces what we are trying to do...but it hink the $$ amount for lifetime should be higher...
<Jace> yes, it's tacit among folks that it won't actually be "lifetime" per se. it's the impact that's important
<BJKlein> LIFE TIME MEMBERSHIP VOTE AGAIN... Yes or No
<Jace> yes
<celindra> YES
<Mind> no
<BJKlein> yes
<localroger> no
<Utnapishtim> No
<Kissinger> no
<Guest> yes
<BJKlein> krist
<chestnut> yes
<chestnut> YESYESYES
<BJKlein>
<bk_2112> yes
<BJKlein> sleeping with board
<chestnut> reord mine times 3
<BJKlein> No 4 Yes 6
<BJKlein> that right?
<Gewis> Sure.
<BJKlein> so amount?
<Mind> $10,000
<Gewis> 100 * 50 = 50,000 dollars.
<Gewis> For 100 years.
<Kissinger> whooo
<celindra> $250 - $500
<Kissinger> $1000
<chestnut> $1,000
<Jace> $1000
<bk_2112> 750
<Utnapishtim> $1000 if we must go this route
<BJKlein> ok sorry let's get the time frame first:
<localroger> May we have a little clarity here? Imminst = 2 yo localroger= 39 yo civlization = 5000yo humanity = 150000 yo complex life = 500000000 yo earth = 4000000000yo and you want a lifetime membership?
<Gewis> Next vote, would you pay 1,000 dollars upfront for a lifetime membership?
<Kissinger> $1000 is a sizable chunk of change
<celindra> No one is going to give $1000
<celindra> Be real folks
<BJKlein> Timeframe: 100 or LIFE
<Kissinger> well then they wont be life time members celindra
<Gewis> Nobody will
<BJKlein> TIMEFRAME VOTE: 100 or LIFE
<celindra> LIFE
<localroger> 100
<bk_2112> 100
<Utnapishtim> 100
<Gewis> Life
<chestnut> LIFE
<caliban> 100
<Jace> i can't associate 100 with anything
<Kissinger> life
<Jace> life
<Guest> FOREVER AND EVER
<BJKlein> One MORE TIME: 100 or LIFE
<localroger> clarification: guest's entry = life
<BJKlein> ?
<Utnapishtim> quick alternate suggestion
<Mind> I feel a yearly or monthly payment will keep people more active...it is like a reminder to keep pushing for the goal
<Jace> then again, life suggests we will die
<Utnapishtim> How about 'Permanent' membership
<Utnapishtim> that leaves time frames ambiguous
<celindra> LIFE
<chestnut> LIFE
<Gewis> Utnapishti's idea is good.
<Gewis> Permanent.
<localroger> How about we don't go there at all? If we really believe immortality can be achieved then the whole idea is stupid.
<Kissinger> immortal membership
<Gewis> yes
<BJKlein> 100=6 LIFETIME=4
<Gewis> heh
<BJKlein> that right?
<Gewis> Oh boy, Oberto
<BJKlein> sorry backward
<Mind> agreed localroger
<Kissinger> could you take that vote again BJ
<BJKlein> 100=4 LIFE=6
<Utnapishtim> If we call it permanent then there are no false assumptions built into the neame
<BJKlein> AGAON LIFE OR 100? VOTE
<Kissinger> life
<celindra> LIFE
<caliban> 100
<bk_2112> 100
<Utnapishtim> 100
<Mind> yearly and montly
<BJKlein> life
<chestnut> I think the "Immortal Member" is good at $1000
<localroger> Even if we call it permanent so we know what it is, it remains poisonous to the institution, since no dues will ever be forthcoming from those members.
<Mind> abstain
<BJKlein> Even
<localroger> 100
<chestnut> LIFE
<Jace> life
<BJKlein> Even
<Ewigkeit> life
<BJKlein> wait im confused..
<BJKlein> let me tally
<Utnapishtim> local: I don't agree with it either but it seems the die has been cast on the existence of this oprion
<caliban> LIFE has won
<caliban> now how much?
<localroger> Well then the institution is dead.
<Mind> Who has ever paid a one time sum for a lifetime membership?
<chestnut> Life?Immortal WINS!!
<Kissinger> local roger if someone if willing to dole out a $1000 I dont think they have lack of committment
<BJKlein> ok yeh.. life it is... sorry
<caliban> now how much?
<haploid> heh
<Mind> its not the end of the world localroger
<Gewis> Should we have an ImmInst legislature to make these decisions?
<Jace> $1000
<BJKlein> Gewis we need paid members first
<Gewis> hehehe
<celindra> $250 - $500
<Gewis> I know
<localroger> Kissinger, there is a long history of this in just one hobby avenue I know of orgs dying because of "lifetime" memberships sold too plenty and too cheap.
<BJKlein> 450
<Utnapishtim> lots of discussion about an option no one will purchase in my opinion
<bk_2112> $750
<BJKlein> Utnapishtim, if one person does it's worth it
<chestnut> the idead is for people to coem and go and contribute to ImmiNst as they can and desire...not forced or reminded...
<Kissinger> $1000
<BJKlein> many people need tax deduction donation
<celindra> If the yearly option is $50, why pay 1000?
<localroger> It doesn't take many to purchase it to kill the organisation down the road, as a lot of avicultural societies found.
<Mind> lifetime memberships had a bad history
<BJKlein> localroger noted but well take the risk
<Kissinger> local, i voted no on lifetime, but the vote has been cast...
<Jace> $495
* localroger ruffles his feathers
<localroger> Well, we do what we can.
<BJKlein> so looks like an average is around that 500 round
<BJKlein> members like round
* caliban sees this is a contentious issue... we should do a polll in the forum
<BJKlein> 500 VOTE yes or no?
<Kissinger> why not start out at $500 and have people say up down or just right??
<Jace> yes
<Utnapishtim> So basically a lifetime membership costs the same as ten years worth of memberships
<celindra> YES
<Gewis> I'm really in favor of not having membership 'dues,' like we're some sort of elite organization. But encourage donations, make it easy to donate, and provide benefits for donating, regardless of the amount donated.
<Mind> OK...I have to go, my final feelings are 5/month...20/year/student...50/year/employed....dislike lifetime membership idea (hey...can always vote on it again next year)
<Kissinger> gewis, that issue is no longer on the table
<BJKlein> sorry AGAIN 500 LIFETIME yes or no??
<Gewis> I think that if people are aware, and if they care, they'll provide money.
<BJKlein> yes
<Utnapishtim> Gewis: Agreed, but it looks like that decision has already been made
<celindra> YES
<Jace> yes
<caliban> no
<BJKlein> 3 yes ...
<BJKlein> 1 no
<bk_2112> n0
<Kissinger> no
<BJKlein> even
<Ewigkeit> yes
<Utnapishtim> yes
<BJKlein> 5 yes 3 no
<BJKlein> 500 it is?
<BJKlein> why not caliban?
<Gewis> Can the decision be brought back to the table? Or if I keep pushing it will I be kicked out by popular vote as an obstructionist?
<haploid> localroger is correct. The last 62 minutes has demonstrated quite clearly the future of imminst.
<Guest> Yes if we can break 500 yearly or whatever
<caliban> 500 it is then
* caliban believes im democracy... sometimes
<BJKlein> heh
<caliban> last issue :
<BJKlein> haploid could you elaborate?
<caliban> tips for rewording the current "join" text ?
<celindra> link again?
<caliban> no please elaborate later
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/join/join.php
<Gewis> For 5 dollars a month, you can contribute to our great debating society.
<BJKlein> click 'More Details'
<caliban> and click the link "More details"
<Gewis> What, besides a special members forum are we talking about as benefits? I don't care about a forum. I would pay, however, if that's what I had to do to get access to the ImmInstipedia.
<caliban> Gewis- so formally express your affiliation
<celindra> ImmInstipedia is Google bait, not good to block it off
<Utnapishtim> you get a paperback book sent to your house
<haploid> In a nutshell, this is a group of people committed to inaction and useless talk rather than action and certitude of purpose.
<Kissinger> can halperin sign his books?
<Gewis> haploid, that's what it seems like
<Kissinger> haploid shut up
<caliban> ok no suggestions for rewording?
<Jace> i like it
<celindra> hang on a sec cali
<Gewis> I vote that the admin peeps decide the wording issue without consulting us. If we don't like it, we'll talk to them, but we should leave particulars to them.
<celindra> Looks OK
<caliban> thats settled then
<Kissinger> looks fine
<caliban> anything else BJ?
<BJKlein> looks ok
<BJKlein> i'll just wrap up with an overview..
<BJKlein> Basic (free) - Full (paid) - fof Full Member Forum
<haploid> I'm out - and to those who I did not responded to privately - I never do.
<BJKlein> 20/student 50/ employ 5/month
<BJKlein> LifeTime 500
<chestnut> thanks everyone for your participation on this...
<BJKlein> thanks chestnut
* caliban seconds chestnut
<Jace> good to be here all, and to speak to you for the first time in real time
<caliban> ------ official chat ends NOW ------
<Guest> Thanks all
<celindra> OK, get to work BJ
<caliban> nice to "meet" you, Jace
<caliban> please to see you could make it, chestnut
<Jace> thank you calban
<BJKlein> Seya Jace
* celindra notes that Deering's interview is responsible for Jace being here
<celindra> :-)
<BJKlein> yeh, thanks for posting that celindra
<BJKlein> and thanks to Mike for stepping outside of the box
<caliban> you got the log BJ?
<BJKlein> yes
<BJKlein> posting now..

It may just be me but I think the money would be good toward making Imminst.org 'more known.' Course I don't know some cost effective ads.