ImmInst Constitution

ImmInst Constitution

ImmInst Chat Sept 7, 2003
Sunday 8pm Eastern
Chat Room

Leadership and members will discuss the current beta version Constitution and By-Laws. The focus will be to create a document that will best preserve ImmInst's long term mission.

The following is a proposed letter for discussion/approval during Sun's chat.
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Dear Current Navigator/Advisor,

As outlined in our Constitution and in keeping with our Mission, ImmInst shall now ask that all positions of leadership be filled by paid-in-full donation+subscription ImmInst Full Members. You can change your status to Full Member here.

During the interim, your status shall become ImmInst Basic Member. If you wish to stay a Basic Member, no problem and no hard feelings.

However, if you wish to play a more active role, after you become a Full Member, please petition an ImmInst Director with your desire. The following leadership positions are available.

ImmInst Navigator – Shall help fellow ImmInst members with forum posting and oversee their forum(s) of choice.

TTLC Leader – (Threats To Life Council) Shall work to fulfill the TTLC mission.

ImmInst Advisor – Shall help fellow ImmInst members by answering questions pertaining to their expertise.

Director – ImmInst is currently accepting petitions for ImmInst Director positions. ImmInst currently has 4 of the 12 Board seats filled. Upon filling all seats, the 12 ImmInst Directors shall outline and ratify terms pertaining to their position. Such terms will be amended to the ImmInst Constitution and will outline the election process, length of service and any other policy regarding the Director’s position.
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*Leadership Forum: All Directors, Navigators, Advisors & TTLC Council Member will gain access to a Leadership Forum. Debate and votes concerning issues not pertinent to the Full Member Forum shall take place in the Leadership Forum.

*Service Requirements: Navigators, Advisors, and TTLC Leaders shall serve as long as they wish and at their own leisure. Yet, they can be voted down by a two-thirds Directors vote at anytime.

*Voting Procedure: For more detail, see the ImmInst Constitution and By-Laws.

relevant paper:

Understanding Organizational Configurations and
Models of Board Governance in Nonprofit Organizations
http://www.public.as...VA2000paper.htm

it appears that there is support for the assertion that organizational structure does relate to performance...

Several factors differentiate nonprofit organizations from their for-profit counterparts. Kershner and Poole (1996) identified volunteers as a distinct feature in nonprofit organizations. Although some for-profit organizations rely on volunteers (i.e., hospitals, and for-profit daycare center) few are as dependent on them as most nonprofits. Second, nonprofit organizations are able to benefit from strategic alliances. Again this is not unique to the nonprofit sector, but inter-organizational collaborations and partnerships are recognized as vital resources for nonprofit organizations. Those organizations that ignore collaborations and partnerships may do so at their peril (Austin, 2000; King, 1997). Fund development is also a distinctive feature of nonprofit organizations. The ability to secure resources from multiple sources that fosters the growth and development of the organization differentiates and complicates nonprofit organizations (Adams & Perlmutter, 1995; Mason, 1984). Finally, nonprofit organizations are reliant on volunteer boards of directors to help define and establish their strategy. Given these features in conjunction with the general challenges faced by all organizations an analysis of organizational configurations in nonprofits is necessary.

Add these links for review as well please.

CETUS
Fair Use and Higher Education: A Statement of Principle
The Need to Address Fair Use
http://www.cetus.org/fair4.html

(abstract)

It is urgent, timely, and in the best interests of higher education that our universities raise a coordinated voice to address the topic that is known as the "fair use" of copyrighted works. The fair-use doctrine is under debate now in several different forums -- locally, nationally, and internationally. The debate involves both public and proprietary interests. It arises because of the changing dynamic between the broad sweep of "intellectual properties" and the deployment of powerful and rapidly evolving communications techniques and infrastructures. These developments already have demonstrated their significant consequences for higher education and will have more pervasive effects in the future. Thus, we advance this statement of educational principle.


The Legal Framework of Fair Use

Fair use today is embodied in Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright Act and it exempts limited uses of materials from infringement liabilities. As detailed in Section 4 of this pamphlet, the full text of the fair-use statute makes clear that the right of fair use is specifically applicable to teaching, research, and scholarship, and that its scope depends on the four statutory factors. These four factors are open to diverse interpretations; the law offers virtually no details for determining which activities may be safely allowed.


The Statement of Principle

The law's flexibility is an opportunity and a challenge. It is an opportunity to expand and apply the fair-use doctrine to diverse and changing requirements in an effort to be fair to all parties. It is also a challenge to apply fair use amidst relative uncertainty, and new interpretations often do not favor educational needs. The four principles stated below serve to focus attention on these needs.

Higher education's legitimate right to use copyrighted works must be protected.

The fundamental mission of higher education is to advance and disseminate knowledge. This mission is realized through the use of various information formats, learning environments, and modes of delivery without unreasonable copyright restrictions. The goals and objectives that we set in order to accomplish our mission require the ability to explore, analyze, and exchange information. The effectiveness of our work depends on our right to make creative and balanced fair use of copyrighted works.


This links page has numerous papers and references to other pages:
http://www.cetus.org/fairindex.html

Stanford University Library

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/

http://fairuse.stanf...rces/index.html

CHAT ARCHIVE:

* BJK Official Chat Shall Begin (thanks for joining)
<BJK> TOPIC: ImmInst Constitution
<BJKlein> you can see a beta version here: http://www.imminst.o...onstitution.php
<MichaelA> It looks nearly complete, if not fully so
<BJKlein> i'd like to add a few things..
<BJKlein> but it's close..
<kevin> I think the same.. I can't see anything glaring that would require revising
<BJKlein> mainly.. the Directors role.. and such..
<BJKlein> i have a vision of a 12 member board..
<Mind> So right now there are 3 directors...but you would like to expand that?
<kevin> there are four to my understanding..
<Mind> ok 4
<BJKlein> yes.. there are 4 now..
<Mind> and you would like more?
<BJKlein> sorry, yes..
<BJKlein> I'd like to have 12, because of the weak bond theory
<Mind> what is that theory?
<John_Ventureville> please explain this
<BJKlein> that one makes the most from one's weakest links..
<BJKlein> as such, for example.. when most people get a job...
<BJKlein> its not by close friends..
<BJKlein> because the friends all know the same people..
<BJKlein> one needs to have weak associations to get access to more jobs..
<BJKlein> this can also be applied to Directorships.. i would think..
<BJKlein> the more Directors we have the more weak links ImmInst would have..
<kevin> to paraphrase.. there is strength in diversity?
<BJKlein> yes!
<John_Ventureville> I find this interesting having attended yesterday's Alcor board meeting
<Mind> I just think more directors means more brains involved in solving problems...more success
<kevin> more.. egos..
<kevin>
<Mind> with the correct structure ...egos can work together
<kevin> Mind: agree..
<John_Ventureville> with a large board you may have a better chance of keeping a small "power block" from dominating everything
<MichaelA> power block?
<simdizzy> But dont you think more directors could mean more bickering?
<MichaelA> one thing I enjoy about the imminst is the especially low quantity of political nonsense
<kevin> or the danger of polarizing the institution and missing opportunities..
<Mind> MA...we probably don't want just 3 or 4 people calling all the shots
<John_Ventureville> good point
<kevin> there is strength in diversity.. and longevity is built in by flexibility in adapting
<hkhenson> wassail
<John_Ventureville> test
<MichaelA> I don't mind having 1 person call the shots, even, although for the sake of the membership, it probably will be worthwhile to expand the board
<John_Ventureville> Keith!
<John_Ventureville> Keith, please enlighten us about the joys and agonies of having a board of directors.
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> Keith, do you envision a perfect number of Directors for ImmInst per chance?
<hkhenson> hmm
*Mind* Besides expanding the board, what other topics are you planning on discussing tonight?
<John_Ventureville> seven?
<John_Ventureville> that is the Alcor number
<hkhenson> true
<John_Ventureville> would a dozen be better?
<hkhenson> no
<Mind> An odd number would be good to avoid deadlocks
<hkhenson> in fact, 5 might be enough
<John_Ventureville> a baker's dozen!
<kevin> BJ would have a deciding veto..
<John_Ventureville> six plus BJ?
<simdizzy> someone needs a counter-veto incase BJ goes mad
<BJKlein> heh
* kevin thinks BJ is already ..
<John_Ventureville> a simple assassination would work in that case
<Mind> I vote for somewhere between 7 and 13
* BJKlein it's starting to show.. damn
<John_Ventureville> 4*only kidding!*
<BJKlein> Cryonics Inst. has a 12 member board..
<MichaelA> I vote for 7, so the power can be maximally concentrated
<kevin> I'm not adverse to 12.. although to organize 12 people has more logisitics issues than 5
<Chubtoad> 7 including BJ or no?
<Mind> test
<kevin> Perhaps a smaller number and adding more as required?
<MichaelA> it looks a little bit silly if you h
<MichaelA> ave too many people*
<BJKlein> kevin that's an option...
<chestnut2> I am knew to the issue of what number is the most efficient in terms of an online forum but i know that too many heads only increases delay at times however too few may nor adequately reflect the "will of the members" so to speak -having said that i like 5 as the number of directors since we will also have navigators and advisors...
<BJKlein> i dont' see a 12 member option for quite a while.. yet
<Chubtoad> 7 directer including BJ with BJ having power to veto, veto dismissed with unanimous vote of other 6?
<MichaelA> Agreed, Susan
<kevin> I would think that 12 would be a little top heavy at this point..
<MichaelA> interesting idea, Chubtoad
<MichaelA> I'm all for giving BJ most of the power for the sake of flexibility
<BJKlein> Chubtoad, that does seem to be a good idea..
<John_Ventureville> the advantage of having an extremely large board of directors is that it would be very hard to bribe them all.
<Mind> I feel 7 would be a better number than 5. It would better represent the diverse views of the members
<BJKlein> chestnut2, nice idea as well..
<kevin> I think that at this point, BJ has ultimate veto..
<Mind> without being too large
<Mind> yes...at this point
<BJKlein> i'd like to work some type of non-king thing into this..
<Mind> BJ has ultimate veto
<BJKlein> i'd like to build a bit of competition into my position
<Mind> Is that going to change in the future?
<kevin> it has nothin to do with king BJ.. ImmInst needs someone with the final word.. and you're it.
<John_Ventureville> 4*Ultimate veto should be determined by trial by combat*
* kevin laughs JV
<BJKlein> right, kevin.. i was thining about elections.. sorry jumping ahead
<simdizzy> ok BJ has power of 2 votes, 6 other directors have only 1 vote ?
<MichaelA> no, BJ has the power of 5 votes
<Mind> BJ has done I fabulous job creating and guiding imminst so far...but it is going to evolve into something other than an uber-BJKlein.com, then ultimate authority should eventually be invested into a constitution of sorts
<kevin> nope.. the direction of ImmInst at this point is decided ultimately by it's founder.. until there is a bit more flexibility and deeper commitment shown by length of service by other participants that ImmInst could go on without BJ.
<kevin> I would not want to step up and fill BJ's shoes at the moment..
<MichaelA> the thing is that there are so few decisions with any political weight attached to them as it is, and whenever any of these issues come up, we talk it over as a group anyway
<Mind> me either
<kevin> MichaelA: agreed.. let's not get ahead of ourselves..
<Mind> and thus...MA...the group (directors, full members or whatever) should have a say
<John_Ventureville> test
<BJKlein> well, we can leave this out of the constitution for a while.. until we have more members to make it worthwhile..
<kevin> My vote for numbers of directors at this point would be 7.. including BJ.. who has ultimate veto..
* MichaelA agrees with Kevin
<Chubtoad> agreed
<BJKlein> odd number.. that's good
<BJKlein> i like it..
<Mind> I agree, only because BJ's level of involvement is so much greater than everyone else
<BJKlein> we'll leave this for now.. and discuss elections if you'd like..
<BJKlein> how to we create competition for positions
<Mind> Once we get a greater connection among members and greater involvement...then the ultimate veto should change
<kevin> Mind: it will be a natural outgrowth of the maturity of the organization..
<Mind> right



<Chubtoad> what exactly have the directors done in the past?
<kevin> last
<kevin> <BJKlein> how to we create competition for positions
<kevin> <Mind> Once we get a greater connection among members and greater involvement...then the ultimate veto should change
<kevin> <kevin> Mind: it will be a natural outgrowth of the maturity of the organization..
<kevin> <Mind> right
<kevin> <Mind> aggreed
<BJK> thanks
<kevin> <kevin> to bring about a 'competition' assumes that there is something to be competed for.. what would those things be?
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> sensible thinking is going on here
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> directorships?
<kevin> * BJK has joined #immortal
<kevin> <Chubtoad> what exactly have the directors done in the past?
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJK
<Mind> Competition breeds action... that would be good.
<BJK> mainly competition for directors positions
<Mind> Right now...it seems the only reward from the competition would be stature
<John_Ventureville> 4*HEALTHY competition breeds action*
<Mind> yes...agreed JV
<BJK> elections would seem the logical choice
<kevin> I think that increasing someone's ego would be a poor choice for a director
<John_Ventureville> will fat salaries be a part of Immortality Institute salaries down the road??
<kevin> LOL
<John_Ventureville> *positions, not salaries!*
<BJK> John_Ventureville of course
<John_Ventureville> Wow!
<Mind> I realize that Kevin, but I am just saying what I see at this point
<BJK> I actualy envision all funds being reinvested into ImmInst to reach our mission
<kevin> agree Mind.. even though I say it.. it is part of human nature.. mine included.
<John_Ventureville> good
<BJK> as the mission will be more important than padding our wallets
<John_Ventureville> BJ: Do you ever see a time where there are paid employees?
<BJK> i would love for that to come about..
<BJK> but only if it works to reach the goal sooner
<kevin> the day BJ get's a real SECRETARY... whoa.. !
<Mind> Salaries should not be ruled out...for people whose sole job is to work within imminst (if there are funds of course)
<BJK> all depending on funding, of course
<kevin> I think that as with any organization.. money is it's life blood in this society..
<John_Ventureville> that is an understatement....
<BJK> allocation of resources so that we can bring in more resources.

<kevin> last
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> income combined with dedicated and trustworthy members
<Mind> perhaps...the nominess could write a paragraph of how they will continue to help imminst or something
<kevin> <Mind> For directors...the most simple way to do it is just have nominations and elections
<kevin> * BJKlein has joined #immortal
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJKlein
<BJKlein> Mind, this is something the World Transhumanist Assoc. does
<Mind> is it successful for them
<Mind> ?/
<BJKlein> yes
<kevin> I think there have to be some basic skills a director should be able to show..
<BJKlein> as i'm on their board
<John_Ventureville> Kevin: What should those basic skills be?
<hkhenson> re BoD, depends on what they are doing
<hkhenson> like a cryonics organization has a ton of money involved
<BJKlein> the WTA has a 10 member board
<kevin> competency with language comes to mind
<hkhenson> both operation and patient care funding
<Mind> basic competency in science also?
<kevin> I would think so Mind.
<hkhenson> so you have to worry a lot about board members being safe
<hkhenson> and how the board gets replaced
<kevin> criminal record would be another.
<hkhenson> i.e., who votes for them
<kevin> lack of one that is
<BJKlein> one nice filter for ImmInst is forum participation..
<John_Ventureville> criminal record?
<hkhenson> Alcor, for example has a self perpetuating board
<kevin> participation certainly.
<BJKlein> one can learn much about someone from reading 100 plus posts
<kevin> uhmm.. fraud.. violence.. I think would not be qualities you would want..
<John_Ventureville> How about a personality test combined with a lie detector to make sure you don't wind up with some brilliant loonies...
<hkhenson> but I have no idea of what the function of immortalist might be/is
<Mind> Agreed Kevin
<Mind> about the criminal filter
<hkhenson> hmm
<kevin> I think participation would be a primary indicator of eligibility.
<hkhenson> don't forget just being a criminal does not mean you are unreliable
<hkhenson> I am after all, a fugetive from justice in california
<Mind> everyone would get a chance to explain any blemishes I would hope
<kevin> HK: no. course not.. but it does indicate a level of instability that may bleed into the directors board..
<BJKlein> for Director's positions.. i'd like for there to forum participation...
<John_Ventureville> we might have a very reliable ex-con on the board
<BJKlein> but as for Advisors.. there would not be as much required
<hkhenson> main thing is what is the group going to be doing?
<hkhenson> will large amounts of money be involved?
<hkhenson> large membership? like over 10k people?
<kevin> I think it would depend on the crime.. and the honesty with which one admits to it.. if it's covered up rather than admitted to... I would see that as a problem
<Mind> I must retire now...good discussion tonight...keep it going
<John_Ventureville> Bruce: In ten years where do you want the Immortality Institute? What goals do you envision having been achieved?
<hkhenson> primate politics has a load of problems.
<John_Ventureville> bye, Mind
<hkhenson> it helps only slightly if you know why you are doing what
<John_Ventureville> 4when damn human beings get involved everything just falls apart...
<BJKlein> I would like ImmInst to be the Foresight of Immortality
<hkhenson> hmm
<John_Ventureville> interesting
<John_Ventureville> ok
<John_Ventureville> I have visited their HQ and spoken with Christine
<BJKlein> ah, nice..
<kevin> I think that there will be a larger need shortly for the philosophical framework provided by ImmInst..
<hkhenson> there is a lot of L5 Society experience in foresight
<hkhenson> bb in about 20 minutes
<BJKlein> kevin, exactly
<BJKlein> i envision ImmInst as a guide for those who need a philosohpy
<kevin> I've come to realize it too.. as I've become aware of my own need to have something to replace the 'acceptance of death' mantra that was burnt in since childhood..
<John_Ventureville> BJ: Do you see an annual Imm Inst conference on par with the Extros?
<BJKlein> yes.. http://www.imminst.org/iwac
<BJKlein> my goal is that each year we grow slowly
<kevin> slow is good.. but be prepared for ramping it up..
<BJKlein> right..
<kevin> I think you may be a little conservative... or I'm a little optimistic at the coming changes..
<BJKlein> looking at TransVision..
<BJKlein> they had around 150 or so...
<BJKlein> and they put quite a bit into it..
<BJKlein> and looking at Ettinger over 30years.
<lazarus> Sorry I am late but I have had a real problem connecting and had to reboot
<BJKlein> i don't see much of a ramping..
<BJKlein> just my feel though..
<kevin> hi laz. np..
<BJKlein> hope I'm wrong.. and I hope ImmInst can change this...
<kevin> life-extension will change it..
<BJKlein> welcome lazarus
lazarus is JavaUser@ool-182c9d49.dyn.optonline.net * irc.extropy.org
lazarus on #immortal
lazarus using irc.lucifer.com [127.0.0.1] Excalibur IRCd
lazarus has been idle 46secs, signed on Sun Sep 07 19:45:54
lazarus End of /WHOIS list.
<MichaelA> even if we don't grow extremely fast, at least we're doing something worthwhile
<John_Ventureville> I kind of like the idea of staying small and having a homey feel to the organization.
<kevin> MichaelA: it's a matter of survival for us folks over 40..
<John_Ventureville> Do others here like the idea of staying fairly small?
<Chubtoad> I don't see any problem with getting bigger
<kevin> the feel of an organization depends on it's members.. look at the grateful dead heads..
<John_Ventureville> What is the current membership?
<MichaelA> hm, I really doubt that the gov could hold back nanotech and biotech to that degree until 2040+, I'm more worried about existential risk, as you know, which effects people who are 19 just as much as people who are 40
<kevin> Michael: understand that.
<Chubtoad> right now 847 members
<John_Ventureville> wow
<John_Ventureville> You may presently outnumber the Extropians!
<BJKlein> they have over 2k i believe.. on their forum..
<John_Ventureville> test
<MichaelA> our overall activity level is higher than Extropians
<kevin> I think that 'immortality' has a more universal appeal.. and the word doesn't need explaining
<John_Ventureville> sometimes their numbers are inflated due to people having joined multiple lists
<kevin> ImmInst shall function as an umbrella organization to help its members succeed in working towards the possibility of human physical immortality. ImmInst shall serve as a platform to exhibit, exchange and debate information regarding the possibility of immortality.
<kevin> kind of says it all.
<Chubtoad> has the number of directors bean decided?
<BJKlein> right.. we're just a vehicle for our members
<BJKlein> i like 7 actually
<Chubtoad> what is it right now 4?
<BJKlein> yes
<BJKlein> the way I'm thinking right now... is that any Full Member can petition a Director to become a Director..
<BJKlein> untill all 7 seats are filled...then we'll decide upon elections
<Chubtoad> right now there is only a few full members though correct?
<BJKlein> and make an amendment to the constitution
<kevin> so what would the requirements be to become a director.. other than asking?
<lazarus> I have no problem with 7 and I am primarlily inteested in maintaing a function assymetry to prevent too many tie votes
<BJKlein> right.. only 6 Full Members
<BJKlein> but, i've yet to ask Navs and Advisors to become paid members yet..
<Chubtoad> what is the purpose of the navs and advisors?
<lazarus> So far BJ has appointed them but should it now be subject to a proposal by navigators and advisors and a confirmation vote by us?
<BJKlein> looks like it's official then.. with 3 directors agreeing on 7
<kevin> good.. one thing done..
* MichaelA will send his cheque shortly
<BJKlein> lazarus, i was thinking just directors vote
* kevin wonders if my cheque has arrived
* BJKlein runs to the mailbox
<lazarus> My suggestion is to that effect but the recomandatin could come from the "floor" so to speak
* kevin knows it will bounce..
* BJKlein plans a trip to canada
* kevin decides to move
<lazarus> recommendation* ( for a quick spell check in this window
<Chubtoad> so 7 director and 1admin BJ who is a director?
<BJKlein> would i be called a chair?
<kevin> yes
<kevin> chairman actually
<lazarus> I was told that not all parts of the world are using paypal and Internatinal funds are almost more trouble than its worth but credit cards do automatic exchange, do we accept visa?
<BJKlein> and we could maybe have directors with specific roles if they'd like..


<kevin> last
<kevin> <BJKlein> and we could maybe have directors with specific roles if they'd like..
<kevin> <Chubtoad> interesting
<kevin> <Chubtoad> any limit on # of advis and nav?
<kevin> <lazarus> Should that be a consititutino division? Or a set of task that we recognize the need to divide among us?
<lazarus> constitutional division is analogous to "Cabinet Secretaries"
<BJK> hmm, good q laz..
<BJK> no limit on nav and adv
<BJK> they shall serve at their own pleasure
<kevin> I think that a list of current duties BJ does that might be delegated could be divvied up amongst various Director functions
* BJK will make a list
<kevin> planned obsolescence.
<kevin>
<BJK> heh
<lazarus> Move to wait on that question a bit BJ, first determine Directorship roles and move on. I can see reasons to limit the number of Advisors and Navigators to a percentageof total population
<BJK> k.. well that's not a biggie
<BJK> on credit card.. seems paypal is not optimal..
<BJK> i'll look into something better for the future.
<Chubtoad> Is there term limits on the directors?
<BJK> Chubtoad, has excellent q'a
<BJK> q's
<kevin> move on yearly elections
<Chubtoad>
<lazarus> Life terms for Immortals sounds like a plush job if it only paid
<BJK> not in the constitution
<BJK> heh
<BJK> kevin, i like yearly
<BJK> because things happen so damn fast in cyberspace
<John_Ventureville> "would-be immortals!*
<John_Ventureville> *not immortal yet*
<kevin> yup.. and even outside of it.
<BJK> heh, John.. one has to optimistic to be an ImmInst director
<John_Ventureville> very true
<lazarus> If directors are appointed are tehy simply rechosen by BJ or did we agree to vote and is there a right of re-election or a mandated limited term?
<Chubtoad> sounds good BJK longer than yearly would be too long for online leadership since people might become inactive
<BJK> i'd say a full election of all 7 dir each year
<BJK> and allow anyone to run
<BJK> as long as they are Full Members

<John_Ventureville> the king in time may decide to abdicate....
<Chubtoad> lol
<John_Ventureville> and let some young prince have his turn
<kevin> that will require a full quorum vote.
<John_Ventureville> *or princess*
* BJKlein feels he missed something.
<John_Ventureville> 4You mean to QUIT Bruce has to get permission?
<kevin> last
<kevin> <lazarus> If directors are appointed are tehy simply rechosen by BJ or did we agree to vote and is there a right of re-election or a mandated limited term?
<kevin> <Chubtoad> sounds good BJK longer than yearly would be too long for online leadership since people might become inactive
<kevin> <kevin> I think in order to have the highest quality directors, yearly elections from fully paid members should do the trick
<lazarus> a vote? You mean we could force him to rule against his will?
<kevin> <kevin> of course.. the king would be exempt.
<kevin> <kevin> I mean the chair
<kevin> <lazarus> Yeah but I think we have just made Bruce defacto CEO by default for life and that is a life sentence
<kevin> * BJKlein has joined #immortal
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJKlein
<kevin> <kevin> lol..
<kevin> <kevin> he made his bed laz..
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> the king in time may decide to abdicate....
<kevin> <Chubtoad> lol
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> and let some young prince have his turn
<kevin> <kevin> that will require a full quorum vote.
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> *or princess*
<kevin> it will be a golden cage... with a lot of pillows laz
<John_Ventureville> 4You mean to QUIT Bruce has to get permission from the board?
* BJKlein agrees with Kevin
<BJKlein> heh
<kevin> heh
<lazarus> that was my point too John
<BJKlein> i think my position needs competition as well
<kevin> not for the first little while BJ.
<John_Ventureville> Raspy gangster voice: "I want to quit but they keep bringin' me back in!"
<lazarus> see what happen when you start writing too many rules?
<BJKlein> say, we interject some clause that after some time period.. i have to run for my chair position
<John_Ventureville> every five years?
<BJKlein> hmm, i'd actually like to start now..
<kevin> I think that once the number of necessary directors reaches say.. 11.. then an election for chair might be appropriate
<BJKlein> and say every year..
<lazarus> You can put a rotatin on even your role but first a lot of specific conditionof liability and responsibilty for equipemnet and general operations should be well defined and distributed to a working group I suggest
<kevin> absolutely laz
<kevin> things will have to be a LOT more structured befor you're out of the drivers seat BJ..
<kevin> you may have to work yourself out of a job here.
* BJKlein nods
<BJKlein> that's a good incentive


<John_Ventureville> If only knew how things worked in my neck of the woods...
<John_Ventureville> ; )
<kevin> <BJKlein> that's a good incentive
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> among the Venturists we simply have an absolute dictator...
<kevin> * kevin senses a paralell with my real life here.
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> in some ways it makes things much simpler
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> lol
<kevin> <kevin> if the dictator dies though JV.. so does the organization.
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> actually..., I'm largely kidding
<kevin> <kevin>
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> we do have a board
<kevin> <kevin> I view BJ as a benevolent slave at the moment.
<kevin> -Lukian- I am currently away for 7hrs 17mins 47secs to: sleeping!
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> "First Among Equals!"
<kevin> <kevin> chuckle..
<kevin> <lazarus> BJ I think should be protected from personal liability as soon as we are able to redistribute some of the working responsibilities for this operation. Well John, dictatorships have always had their advantages but usually it also involves decapitiation to change the leadership, don't you think this is perhaps a bit too Klingon(ish)?
<kevin> * BJK has joined #immortal
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJK
<kevin> <Chubtoad> I wouldn't look good for imminst if the directors started dying
<lazarus> I move for a better chat environment and software that dosen't kick people out before we charge too much.
<kevin> lol..
<lazarus> especially since it is the directors that seem to get axed durng their conference
<John_Ventureville> the software here has always been very nice to me
<kevin> BJ's connection is the culprit.
<BJK> ah, well.. that's my lovely connection
<kevin> MIRC has been working flawlessly for me..
<lazarus> yes and he is the prime link to the server
<kevin> good point..
<BJK> crist i love my connection.. you guys!
<BJK> and now for some good stuff..
<kevin> ohmm.. ohmm..
<lazarus> me thinks tou doth protest too much
<lazarus> thou*
<BJK> anyone like to dive into copyright for about 10min?
<kevin> laz is ready.. I will stand and agree ..
<John_Ventureville> BJK: Just go and talk to your wife!
<John_Ventureville> *chuckle*
* BJK has chestnut2 ready?
<lazarus> there that was as painless as a vaccine
<kevin>
<chestnut2> ready
<BJK> well.. my main concern is that someone can shut us down...
<lazarus> HI Susan!
<kevin> hi susan.
<John_Ventureville> howdy Susan
<kevin> I think the probablity of that is remote BJ.
<lazarus> Good argument for mirror sites in general
<John_Ventureville> BJK: You mean hackers?
<John_Ventureville> I see
<kevin> one in CANADA
<chestnut2> hello Laz great to chat with ya -and everyone else. Thank you all for the great participation and input
<BJK> if that's shown not to be possible... i'll be a happy camper
<John_Ventureville> "luddite hackers"
<BJK> John_Ventureville, copyright
<John_Ventureville> ok
<lazarus> Actually he means Gvernement and/or Courts relfelcting an Injunction
* kevin said "remote"
<lazarus> If we are found in violation of fair use
<lazarus> Did I get that right Susan?
<lazarus> I was saying that Mirror sites are a generally good idea and better as International repeaters
<lazarus> kinda like Virtual Insurance
<chestnut2> i am not a copyright lawyer but the research i have found thus far suggests the following: it seems that we may be ok whe citing to part of an article and referncing the autor...the crux is when we copy the entire article and when this article comes from a cite that charges for archived articles and/or advertising to the front page
<kevin> What is the law in regards to an educational, non-profit organzation?
<lazarus> That is the argument from Industry in a nutshell but there are a number of Online libraries now
<chestnut2> we have a storng argument/defense that it is fair use since we are a non profit and we are using the information not for gain but to comment, critic and edicational purposes...
<chestnut2> education
<lazarus> I put some lins to a few already and in them you get complete access, and by extension a Free Public Library is protected fair use
<kevin> http://www.mcgrawhill.ca/copyrightlaw/ for a Canadian Link...
<BJK> i haven't even thought about international copyright
<kevin> which shows the same for online educational sources.. a fairly liberal approach to non-profit organizations geared towards education/information
<lazarus> more so as the clearly consistent reasearch of a Focused Study group (think tank) This is my personal opinion but it has a long history behind it.


<kevin> <kevin> which shows the same for online educational sources.. a fairly liberal approach to non-profit organizations geared towards education/information
<kevin> <lazarus> more so as the clearly consistent reasearch of a Focused Study group (think tank) This is my personal opinion but it has a long history behind it.
<kevin> * BJK has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<kevin> <lazarus> Scinetific Study groups have met since Franklin himspef form the first one in Philadelphia
<kevin> <lazarus> here in the States
<kevin> * BJKlein has joined #immortal
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJKlein
<lazarus> himself* and he also helped sponsor the very first public libraries for that express purpose in Boston and Philidelphia
<lazarus> the idea was NOT to charge but share accesss with all interested parties to promote technological progress
<kevin> I think the fight for access by public libraries and non-profit institutions will come down on the side of more access.
<kevin> this is being shown by the need for synergistic cooperation between technical fields to advance many of the discoveries we see coming about.
<BJKlein> seems that way.. more open access
<lazarus> I suggest we need to maximize our exposure not simply as an organization, but as a center of study for Longevity Research worldwide; and then who knows what student will be teh maker of important breakthroughs?
<BJKlein> yeh, as long as we can stay around to be this resource..
* kevin agrees with Laz's vision wholeheartedly
<BJKlein> that's the main concern
<lazarus> Plus if we have to fight for a principle and be seen as standing for smething in the public eye then what better than true freedom of information
<kevin> yup BJ.. but survival of ImmInst might be as simple as moving servers to another country.
<BJKlein> interesting...
<lazarus> sure counter teh "selfish" argument like a right hook
<kevin> ImmInst is beyond the US..
<John_Ventureville> Is there a nation/worldwide trend toward limited access to information, with access being determined by fees and memberships?
<lazarus> yes John
<cyborg01> Hello all...
<BJKlein> welcome cyborg01
<GE> I think if not the world, you will see it in America
<kevin> there seems to be an opposite trend in some cases though..
<John_Ventureville> so the "golden days" of the net may be coming to a close....
<cyborg01> So how can imminst survive if information is free
<chestnut2> the question is what is the law today? and could Imminst and/or it's members be in trouble? It appears that we can either take a very conservative approach until the law is clear or take a stand that we are protected under fiar use and see what happens... maybe the worse case scenario would be that Imminst gets a cease ans desist letter and then we change our view?
<kevin> <kevin> which shows the same for online educational sources.. a fairly liberal approach to non-profit organizations geared towards education/information
<kevin> <lazarus> more so as the clearly consistent reasearch of a Focused Study group (think tank) This is my personal opinion but it has a long history behind it.
<kevin> * BJK has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
<kevin> <lazarus> Scinetific Study groups have met since Franklin himspef form the first one in Philadelphia
<kevin> <lazarus> here in the States
<lazarus> and moreson as a consequence of NAPSTER and software piracy which is what was the trigger for some pretty repressive legislation globally not just locally
<kevin> * BJKlein has joined #immortal
<kevin> * ChanServ sets mode: +o BJKlein
<John_Ventureville> a good example would be MIT planning to put their entire curriculum online for the world to learn from
<kevin> sorry..
<BJKlein> heh
<lazarus> Sanford and many others too
<BJKlein> cease and disist letter would likely be the first step, eh chestnut2?
<BJKlein> desist*

<kevin> last---
<BJKlein> **kev.. i'm reading susan's computer.. she's here with dialup
<kevin> <lazarus> Sanford and many others too
<kevin> * OmniDo Yawnz...
<kevin> <OmniDo> Evening Gentlemen
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> hello
<kevin> <kevin> hi there Omnido..
<kevin> <lazarus> but you are supposed to have a student ID usually to access and many Institutions of higher learning are now a little terrified of too much access leading to getting hacked
-ChanServ- Welcome to the moderated chat of the Immortality Institute :: PLEASE READ http://www.imminst.org/chatrules
<kevin> <OmniDo> Just thougt Id stop by
<OmniDo> Great, not as if he doesnt have a substantial amount of responsibility to begin with.
<kevin> <kevin> Sony is bringing their prices down because they can't fight file sharing.
<kevin> <kevin> Universal as well.
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> good
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> *greedy music labels*
<kevin> <OmniDo> What is the discussion for this evening? Or did I miss it already?
<kevin> <kevin> Journals are being setup now with 'open access' and charging the publishers.. rather than the users.
<kevin> <kevin> copyright Omnido..
<kevin> <OmniDo> Ah
<kevin> <OmniDo> Pointless
<kevin> <OmniDo> Heh
<kevin> <kevin> heh
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> we spoke earlier about the Imm Inst constitution and how many should be on the board of directors.
<kevin> <OmniDo> The universal Copyright and Anti-theft law is: "Something is yours as long as you can keep it."
<kevin> <Chubtoad> do we have enough info to draw up the constitution?
<OmniDo> I see.
<kevin> <OmniDo> Nothing really "belongs" to anyone, heh
<kevin> <kevin> Unless contingency plans were in place in the case of shutting ImmInst down in the US.. I would say erring on the side of caution is a good idea..
<OmniDo> And what did you all conjure up with the Constitution?
<kevin> * BJKlein has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
<kevin> * kevin laughs at at
<kevin> <OmniDo> If you want to get abstract, you could say we all "belong" to that collapsed star which burned out or went supernovae some few billion years ago.
<kevin> <John_Ventureville> Oh, and we appointed BJ "president for life!"
<kevin> Well.. we plan on making him just a figure head.. literally if he needs to be frozen due to premature death.
<kevin> ahh.. duh...
<chestnut2> that issue is our we preventing revenew to other sites (let's say online newspaper that charges for past articles) and if so would that be an exception to Fair Use?
<chestnut2> the law seems clear if you are an online competitor but fuzzy as we get into nonprofits with paid members...
<chestnut2> are
<kevin> as long as it's fuzzy.. I say .. it's defendable.
<BJKlein> so there's no case history specific
<OmniDo> None except napster

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*** Attempting to rejoin...
*** Rejoined channel #immortal
<lazarus> I was going to say I see everything twice but actually I think it is thrice
-ChanServ- Welcome to the moderated chat of the Immortality Institute :: PLEASE READ http://www.imminst.org/chatrules
<John_Ventureville> Or would it take an attorney who specializes in copyright law?
<chestnut2> Actually we do have some recent cases...i will try and post (but they deal with competitors -case of Ticketmaster)
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15chestnut214)}> anytime. =)
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15BJKlein14)}> so what were the proposed "ethics" behind the Immortal Constitution?
<BJKlein> to fulfill the mission
<OmniDo> Ah
<OmniDo> thats simple. Dedication, Devotion, Conviction, and Funding.
<OmniDo> 14,1H15eh
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...onstitution.php
<BJKlein> there ya go
* OmniDo clicks
<chestnut2> JV: i think we would want someone with copyright background but i would of course assist however i could
<OmniDo> Those 4 have always been the mainstays of all endeavors.
<kevin> Funding should have priority I would think..
<OmniDo> although, you can replace funding with "tools" if we were to bump into someone who either A) Already possessed them, or B) could acquire them without the need for funds.
<BJKlein> well the threat of death can be nice motivation as well
<chestnut2> Omnido you forgot "LIFE"
<lazarus> Susan there is a big diference in the applied profit motive and market principle IMO between teh types of applicationof the "Fair Use" doctrine this isn't about Idea theft or infirngment, HOw about a request from the ACLU and some Industry group
<lazarus> infringement*
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15BJKlein14)}> Ive been putting alot of thought into that lately. Ive realized that most people arent scared of dying, unless they face death with immediate finality. Examples: People sufferring from terminal illness, People of old age, etc..
<John_Ventureville> On 60 Minutes they are interviewing the doctors who did the transplant for Jessica, a 16 year-old girl originally from Mexico who got organs from someone with a DIFFERENT bloodtype and her tragic death was the result.
<John_Ventureville> unbelieveable
* BJKlein nods to OmniDo
<OmniDo> The young have no concern for it, and the middle aged are just beginning to face it.
<OmniDo> So really, your largest group of supporters will be the advanced in thinking, be they young or old, and the isolated or indignified.
<chestnut2> Laz: i agree our defene would be that we are protected since this is for critic and educate -yes if ImmInst were sued we should explore all avenues of assistance ...
<chestnut2> defense
<lazarus> I would rather get an opinion from a Judge than just a legal specialist, but that usually involves a problem to begin with
<chestnut2> [sorry for the typos my keyboard is really small}
<BJKlein> OmniDo, thus shall it be.. yet I think there are quite a few of us out there
<kevin> 'advanced in thinkin' usually means 'respected of opinion'.. especially when it comes to 'advising on stock markets'
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15BJKlein14)}> Oh yes indeed.
<John_Ventureville> call 1800 GREG BURCH!
<lazarus> no worse than mine so I have gotten used to interpreting keyboard gibberish
<John_Ventureville> *Extropian vice president and crack lawyer*
<OmniDo> Once again, one of our issues is organized congregation, which is in part being solved by the forums and the Institution as a whole. However, it will be slow-going..
<BJKlein> a few thousand and growing.. enough to make our mission come true
<MichaelA> I think there should be less focus on Extropy, personally
<OmniDo> Although your idea behing making it a pay site was very logical in my opinion. This will tend to weed out the flamers from the honestly interested.
<BJKlein> my plan is growth.. each year.. however slow.. as long as it's growth..
<lazarus> I know the Libertarians would back us to the with moral support but when asked for real support they get very Randian
<kevin> BJ: Have you thought about setting up servers in other countries?
<PD> Hello
<OmniDo> 14,1 <{(15BJKlein14)}> Amen. =)
<BJKlein> kevin, no actually.. but i like the idea
<BJKlein> welcome PD


<BJK> kevin, no actually.. but i like the idea
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<PD> What's going on? Someone getting sued?
<BJK> welcome PD

<lazarus> Yes as in Lazarus the Long Winded
<BJK> just in time PD
<OmniDo> Good to see you again lazarus. =)
<kevin> PD: talking about copyright. and posting articles on ImmInst
<PD> Ah
<PD> What articles?
<PD> Heh
<kevin> I've got server space and the financing to support it if it were required during a 'transfer'
<John_Ventureville> what is next week's chat topic?
<BJK> Betterhumans.com
<BJK> Simon and George
<kevin> articles of copyrighted material PD
<lazarus> Lets get BJ a better pipeline for what atheists celebrate around teh New Year
<lazarus> what ever*
<John_Ventureville> What do atheists celebrate around New Year's Day?
<Lukian> morning kevin
<BJK> Ben Frank's Birthday!
-Lukian- I am currently away for 7hrs 55mins 14secs to: sleeping!
<chestnut2> Omnido: not on ideas -the issue is when you copy and post entire articles to the forum --even when you reference the author it is still infringement but under fair use doctrine there are exception to liability
<kevin> hi Lukian.
<John_Ventureville> do you mean Newtonmas?
<PD> Well, if it's betterhumans articles, why not just ask them?
<BJK> heh.. sorry not Betterhumans articles..
<BJK> that's next weeks chat
<Lukian> heh
<PD> Oops
<BJK> with Betterhumans founder and editor.. sorry
<PD> Well, ask them anyway.
<kevin> good point thout PD..
<kevin> though*
<BJK> ah, well yes..
<BJK> they would probably know something about this..
<kevin> it is feasible for ImmInst to approach regular sources..
<lazarus> But a library is saynig thereis a fair use to the entire text, but it should be acquired legally and not by theft, but that includes donation, gift or outright purchase to share
<PD> Sure why not
<lazarus> There are Online libraries now
<PD> Plus I think you can reproduce parts of articles with a link legally.
<kevin> Betterhumans reformat all of their news..

<lazarus> But a linkageis insufficient if it goes stale without a verifiable warning and then we are left with an unsubstantiated reference

<chestnut2> the grey area is posting all articles
<Chubtoad> what if you put on the forum rules that imminst doesent support the use of material without consent from the source?
<lazarus> We should make subsequent learnignof our process available as a historic archive and teh relevenceof the study background should be insured to be made available in perpetuity
<kevin> I think that conserving the entire article.. maintaining the link to the original.. and in the event it is inaccessible.. restoring the link to the conserved article.
<cyborg01> In this age articles go out of date pretty fast..
<lazarus> That makes it OUR Scrap book library, but is publicly available for anyone anytime to study for dvancing our investigative goals
<BJKlein> yeh, that's the key point..
<PD> Well, what sort of articles are we talking about? I mean many places require paid subscription
<BJKlein> mostly popular news articles..
<chestnut2> PD: that is the grey area in right now...i'm sure a case is soon to hit the courts...
<lazarus> If we charge for membership then we are no different in some respects than a school which charges tuition and can buy subscriptions for general access
<kevin> expensive subscription I think thought laz
* kevin is a lousy typist
<lazarus> I wouldn't mind supporting some Journals and sone of the newer better ones are free to begin with
<lazarus> all we need is their permission by asking and showing our good intent
<lazarus> the issue gets fuzzy if we ask and are denied
<PD> chestnut, I don't think that area is all that grey. I mean if you reproduce a full article from Nature or something, where you have to pay for subscription, that's pretty much stealing their money.
<kevin> actually PD.. if the taxpayer funded the study in question.. they are entitled to the information.
<PD> I don't think "entitled to the information" = "reproduce full article"
<chestnut2> i think whatever we do should be consistent -Imminst should have a position that applies across the board - so if we say no posting without prior approval form the origin site we need to monitor that.
<lazarus> I think we shuldn't allow industry to make up our minds for us this is a conseqeuence of First Amendment Principle and not about products per se but the actual intent of the Fair Use exclusion that was codified to begin with, not really PD as that is what UNiversities all over the world do now
<BJKlein> I'm leaning toward posting something to the effect that ImmInst should not be held responsible for individual members posting of such articles in whole.. but then allowing it until more comes to light
<lazarus> There would be no Public Libraries if this were that cut and dry
<PD> lazarus, but they have consent, don't they?
<kevin> well... why should they pay for it twice.. the publisher is the person who the burden of payment should fall on.. using the taxpayers money.. access should be equal and accessible to all those regardless of ability to pay
<lazarus> Your local library doesn't have individual consent nor does every school it is by general consent
<lazarus> Accredited Schools are exempt
<kevin> a small membership fee is natural for access of course.. but the exorbitant amounts of 30.00 per article for non-academic licences are ridiculous


<chestnut2> yup
-ChanServ- Welcome to the moderated chat of the Immortality Institute :: PLEASE READ http://www.imminst.org/chatrules
<PD> Sounds kinda shady
<lazarus> I would use the debate on Iraq as a prime example of the IMPORTANCE of inclusionof the entire texts and add that itis now a relevent hstorical dialog in its own right
<chestnut2> but if you pass it as your own, or sell it that is not fair use
<Hugh_Bristic> what is a chubtoad?
<lazarus> I try to LAWAYS link and Cite the original as well as list the author and date
<chestnut2> PD: it is shady and now more so with the internet :O)
<lazarus> ALWAYS*
<kevin> laz: excellent example.. no one can fudge with it..
<kevin> hi Hugh. .
<PD> Wasn't there some kind of fiasco with Foresight reproducing an article from SciAm for criticism and SciAm getting all pissy?
<Hugh_Bristic> Hey kev
<chestnut2> whatever position we take we should always refernce the author and post the site where it came from
<lazarus> additionally we are preserving text inan archival fashion against the possible manipulationof history a la Orwell in a virtual environment, we serve to keep the system honest
<lazarus> we are a public service
<kevin> I'm sure there will be attempts of the journals to stifle free thought if it doesn't mean money in their pocket.. but they will LOSE
<Hugh_Bristic> be back in a minute
<Lukian> k Hugh_Bristic
<Chubtoad> how about BJ deleates all news without author and source?
<lazarus> or we can search and edit it in
<lazarus> i we think it erlevent
<lazarus> if*
<Chubtoad> yea thats a better idea
<kevin> or submission of an article requires a special form with required info
<kevin> would be a good ways to producing a searchable database..
<lazarus> that was something I was interested in Kevin, sort of an automated aspect of the HTTP: insert function that also sped things up
<kevin> and would also allow for the division of information in the library from the discussion of the article
<kevin> again.. a software issue however.
<BJK> yeh, i like that idea..
<Chubtoad> me too
<lazarus> If some sites want to get pissy about their advertising we could make an update feature that includes that crap on the cited reference
<BJK> but maybe would be just as good to have Nav's come back and add and ask the original poster
<chestnut2> iwill keep researching this topic and hope to be able to provide more insight ont he matter -i agree with Laz that it seems right that we would be protected but until we have a court decision we are left with either being very conservative on the issue or taking a "calculated" best effort in good faith risk :O)
<BJK> I'll post a mini-recap of our chat tonight:
<kevin> I think if a 'paid member' feels an article is worth posting.. they should have the ability to place a reference..
<BJK> Tentative until a current Board Vote:
<Chubtoad> BJK is the constitution complete?
<lazarus> agreed Chestnut, and you two shouldn't be left "holding the bag" on this alone regardless
<BJK> 1. 7 Member board
<BJK> 2. Board Electiosn Yearly
<BJK> 3. BJKlein = Chair For Now untill more is worked on Chair elections.
<BJK> Chubtoad, no..
<BJK> still will be debated and discussed by current Dir.
<BJK> 4. Allow posting of Full Articles yet post relinquishement of authority over individual member posting
* kevin breathes sigh of relief..
<lazarus> I move that we table the copyright issue for tonight and move on after offerring that anyone who feels they have an additional point to make do so now, anyone second?
<kevin> second
<chestnut2> thanks Laz
<lazarus> Opinions to the floor? Your welcome Susan
<kevin> none it seems laz..
<lazarus> I recognize the lack of suggestion as tacit agreement that we move on to more organizatinal issues then, Back tot he actual elements of the Constitution

<BJKlein> Thanks for the copyright discussion .. we'll close copyright and move on to Constitution issues if there is interest...

<kevin> what further questions need to be discussed bj?
<lazarus> Did we come to an agreement aboutthe roles of the Directors? or is that also to be discussed more? I would like Thomas Jefferson Klein to be present for the Q&A's on his doc
<Hugh_Bristic> back
<Lukian> wb
<Hugh_Bristic> now what is a chubtoad?
<BJKlein> Yeh, Let's discuss Dir, Nav, TLC, and Adv roles in brief
<kevin> Your views Mr. Klein?
<Hugh_Bristic> so chubtoad discussions are inappropriate at this juncture?
<kevin>
<BJKlein> Dir = final vote on all issues
<BJKlein> Nav = forum edit posts and help members
<BJKlein> Adv = specific scientific experties help to members
<BJKlein> TTLC = Threats To Life Council
<BJKlein> that's our leadership
<kevin> seems like the Directors have it easy..
<BJKlein> heh, they'll also do Admin work..
<kevin> ahh.
<Lukian> hehe
<BJKlein> Treasurer, Sec, Press will be in that
<kevin> I think initial layout is appropriate at this stage in ImmInst's development
<BJKlein> but those need to be worked out.. and we'll fill those roles as we go along
<BJKlein> But, I'd like to start all votes in the Full Member Forum and then have Dir make the final vote
<BJKlein> there shall be two Leadership Forum Levels..


<Chubtoad> sounds good kevin

<BJK> Kev, I'd like that to be a pull position.. for those who wish to be a Nav for whatever forum they desire.. some Nav's may have full forum access.. depends on what they'd like
<kevin> yes.. I was about to say.. to each to his own skills and interests..
<BJK> for example.. LifeMirage is Adv to his forum.. Nootropics
<BJK> there will be two levels of Leadership and two forums to reflect this..
<BJK> one will be the Full Member forum the other will be the actual Leadership forum for Nav, Adv, Dir, and TTLC
<BJK> and I'd like all Leadership positions to pass a Directors vote
<BJK> 2/3


<BJKlein> but optimally we'd want more specific..
<kevin> Would you say that one of the main goals of ImmInst is to become a real 'library' type of resource?
<BJKlein> depending on supply and interest well work this out as we go along.. as Nav's show such interest
<BJKlein> as in our constitution.. yes..
<BJKlein> our goal is to become an online resource
<BJKlein> a starting point for immortalist
<kevin> understood.. a real librarian would be a great resource later..
<BJKlein> and how best to do this in the most efficent mannor to reach our goal is desired
<BJKlein> to rely upon our Nav's to be the librarians is a good goal
<kevin> controlling the information as it enters would be the most efficient way of streamlining it at the point of collection
<kevin> like self-shopping.
<lazarus> I move as a Director to expropriate Chestnuts computer at teh moment and make BJ use it. Is there a second?
<kevin> LOL
<BJKlein> heh
<kevin> second and third.
<lazarus> do we have a majority of Directors in agreement?
<BJKlein> ah, she's got the better ideas..
<chestnut2> ok with me! i need to go prep for tomorrow -thanks ya'll
<kevin> I have to leave as well...
<lazarus> It been a pleasure Susan you havea good night
<BJKlein> thanks.. i'll clean up things and propose more..
<kevin> I have three papers to read for tomorrow.
<BJKlein> in a formal letter to the board
<BJKlein> yikes.. best of luck kevin..
<BJKlein> thanks for your ideas and help
<kevin> anytime..
<kevin> nite room..
<chestnut2> you also Laz - and i won't forget the director that kicked me out for the King i mean chair :O)
<lazarus> I just think thath this business of you conducting this meeting and getting kicked out every few minutes is nuts Bruce, if it happens again why don't you just come back as her and get a feel for sharing virtual consciousness
<chestnut2> Laz -
<BJKlein> heh... thinking like female, eh..
<John_Ventureville> interesting...
<Lukian> heh
<John_Ventureville> it could be a real advantage for you
<BJKlein> you think?
<chestnut2> as director i propose requiring the chair to get better connection (since he won&#

<chestnut2> as director i propose requiring the chair to get better connection (since he won't heed his wife's advice maybe he will do it for the board)
<John_Ventureville> in a class on gender I took in college our instructor wanted us to get away from saying "female" or "male" characteristics, instead we were to say "instrumental" and affective"
<BJKlein> ah, john.. congrats on getting syndication for the mag..
<John_Ventureville> thank you
<lazarus> see what appens when you give women the vote?
<John_Ventureville> who told you?
<BJKlein> read the CryoNet
<chestnut2> Laz you are too much! haaa
<BJKlein> I think it was David P.
<John_Ventureville> ok
<John_Ventureville> yes, we are on our way
<lazarus> thanks but somebody has to keep us from becoming a meeting of the bored
<chestnut2> well now it looks like there will be 3 more "boreds" to consider...who will they be?? anyone's guess :O)
<John_Ventureville> BJ: between the magazine and the lodge I can envision the Venturists putting their mark on the world along with your Immortality Institute.
<BJKlein> that's good stuff...
<lazarus> John what is your publication
<lazarus> ?
<John_Ventureville> Physical Immortality
<John_Ventureville> give me an address and I will send you a free sample
<lazarus> Is this the same as teh Yahoo group of that name?
<John_Ventureville> I don't think so
<BJKlein> Immortality Institute
<BJKlein> PMB 118
<BJKlein> 408 19th Street North
<BJKlein> Birmingham, AL 35203
<John_Ventureville> nope, not me!
<lazarus> Good to know,
<John_Ventureville> The Society for Venturism publishes it. I am one of their officers.
<lazarus> Do you want the physical address like BJ just gave
<John_Ventureville> yes
<BJKlein> john you guys thought about doing an online version ?
<lazarus> OK but I would prefer to send this to you in a PM what is your screen name with us?
<John_Ventureville> you can p.m. me if you wish
<lazarus> are you the same name in our forum?
<John_Ventureville> down the road
<BJKlein> laz, you can double click on John's nick to PM
<John_Ventureville> I believe I am starman2050
<BJKlein> in this chat
<BJKlein> on the right side
<John_Ventureville> lol, Laz confused me
<lazarus> Oh yeah thanks Bruce
<John_Ventureville> just follow BJ's instructions
<BJKlein> np
<BJKlein> Ben Franklin's birthday Jan 17th = New Immortalist Holiday Season
<John_Ventureville> I love his quote about being stored in a fine wine to see the future, if only it were possible.
<BJKlein> I wish it were possible... to invent a method of embalming drowned persons, in such a manner that they might be recalled to life at any period, ~ Franklin
<John_Ventureville> yes!
<John_Ventureville> I was floored when I first read that quote
<BJKlein> however distant; for having a very ardent desire to see and observe the state of America a hundred years hence, I should prefer to an ordinary death, being immersed with a few friends in a cask of Madeira, until that time, then to be recalled to life by the solar warmth of my dear country!
<BJKlein> But... in all probability, we live in a century too little advanced, and too near the infancy of science, to see such an art brought in our time to its perfection..." ~ Apr 1773 Ben Franklin

So what is the consensus on the copyright issue? I usually only post articles from "free" internet sites. But what if a particular article I post is archived and then sold by that same site (paid archives)? Am I, or Imminst liable for payment?

COPYRIGHT: As of this posting, ImmInst policy is to allow each member to make their own judgment concerning the posting of individual articles. ImmInst suggests that members only post enough of the article to make the relevant point and include all referencing information.