CHAT ARCHIVE * BJKlein official chat starts
<BJKlein> topic: peter passaro! brain computer interfacing
<BJKlein> ImmInst Advisor and graduate student in the Lab for Neuroengineering at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, Peter Passaro joins members to chat about the latest developments in the merger of mind and machine
<BJKlein> welcome peter
<FutureQ> hi
<BJKlein> Ocsrazor = Peter Passaro
<Ocsrazor> Hi All!
<JohnC> hi
<NorthLite> hi
<cyborg01> Hi passaro
<BJKlein> So.. just how close are we to networked existance?
<FutureQ> FutureQ=James Swayze
<John_McCluskey> Peter, can you give a brief synopsys of what's going on in the lab?
<Ocsrazor> Let me start the discussion with the most interesting news tidbit from my field...
<Ocsrazor> One company has applied for FDA approval of the first ever human cortical implnat
<cyborg01> Which company is that?
<Ocsrazor> Cyberkinetics INc.
<Ocsrazor> see the chat thread for the link
<cyborg01> Interesting..
<FutureQ> kwel
<FutureQ> erkewl
<Ocsrazor> BJ that is a very difficult question to answer succinctly :D
* BJKlein nods
<BJKlein> stirring the pot a bit
<Ocsrazor> John, the best synopsis would be to go to the Potter Lab web page
<Ocsrazor> but I'll give you the quick and dirty
<Ocsrazor> we have 3 major thrusts right now
<SpaceGhost> ok
<SpaceGhost> *this is the exciting part*
<Ocsrazor> 1) recording and stimulation electrophysiology of our neural cultures
*** Joins: Chestnut (~Chestnut@pub-net-3.bradleyarant.com)
<SpaceGhost> nice
<Ocsrazor> 2) modeling of culture electrical behavior and trying to map that on to so called animats...
<SpaceGhost> excellent
<Ocsrazor> which are animals with virtual bodies...
<Ocsrazor> in other words we give our neural cultures back a body, albeit a simplified one in a virtual environment
<SpaceGhost> fascinating
<Ocsrazor> or a robot body with a simple sensory system
<Ocsrazor> 3) the last thrust is combining optical imaging of cultures while they develop to see how they interface to electronics...
<John_McCluskey> I just did a quick skim of the lab research pages... the Animat project is closest I can see to a real "Frankenstein" project.
<SpaceGhost> could an animat type project create a very dangerous computer virus?
<Ocsrazor> and try and determine how form affects function
<BJKlein> steve potter still not taking any DARPA funds?
<Ocsrazor> no SG, this is a very simple virtual animal we have created, it doesn't self evolve
<FutureQ> Please don't use the "F" word!
<gustavo> a question from an ignorant person: how do you create the neural cultures?
*** Joins: eclecticd (forti2de@c-24-118-176-129.mn.client2.attbi.com)
<Ocsrazor> yes Dr. Potter is a confirmed concentious objector for DOD research funds :D
<BJKlein> which F word is that FutureQ?
<Ocsrazor> function or form? :D
<eclecticd>
<John_McCluskey> I'm an electrical engineer... what kind of drive strengths are used for feedback (driving) to the neurons? bipolar pulses? length? millivolts?
<FutureQ> Frankenstein
<Ocsrazor> gustavo - the cultures are prepared from embryonic rat or mouse
<gustavo> Thanks. Are they made of cortical neurons? how many approx?
<Ocsrazor> John those details can be found in any of our labs publications...
<eclecticd> :O?
<Ocsrazor> here you go john:
http://www.neuro.gat...blications.html*** Joins: Keyliminator (~Keylimina@73-106-186-64.cga.aptalaska.net)
*** Joins: Keyliminator (~Keylimina@73-106-186-64.cga.aptalaska.net)
<BJKlein> How close is Cyberkinetics to FDA approval?
<Ocsrazor> it is usually ~ 400mV bipolar, length and repetition vares
<Keyliminator> Greetings all.
<Ocsrazor> gustavo - we use from 20-100K cortical neurons
<BJKlein> welcome Keyliminator
<eclecticd> greetings :O)
<serenade> FDA approval takes ages
<BJKlein> BrainGate: First Clinical Trials Planned for 2004 -
http://www.cyberkineticsinc.com/<Ocsrazor> that depends on the arcane approval process BJ, and as this is a completely new device could be a while....
<serenade> three clinical trials first
*** Joins: kevin (~kevin@mail.methuselahfoundation.org)
<Ocsrazor> but there is a precedent for doing deep brain stimulation for epileptics
<eclecticd> :Ox
<eclecticd> hellos kevin
<eclecticd>
<kevin> bonjou..
<John_McCluskey> Thanks Peter... answer I was looking for was on first page, "Stimuli are voltage-controlled, typically 300-700 mV, 100-500 µs biphasic pulses."
<BJKlein> hmm... just wondering.. any other life extensionist in your lab with you peter?
<cyborg01> Is that stimulus applied intra- or extra- cellularly?
<Ocsrazor> extracellularly, we use 30uM falt electrode arrays
<Ocsrazor> flat
<cyborg01> So the electrodes are naked all the way from the base?
<Ocsrazor> whichare built by multichannel systems of germany, or in house here
<Ocsrazor> only the electrode pad is exposed
<eclecticd> ahh.. that certainly makes things clear :O)
<eclecticd> :O\
<cyborg01> Is each electrode insulated along its length?
<Ocsrazor> see:http://www.multichannelsystems.com/neuro/mea-60/index.html
*** Retrieving #immortal info...
<Ocsrazor> for details on the arrays
*gustavo* hey BJ
*gustavo* did you get my PM?
* eclecticd wonders if everyone fell asleep :O/
<Ocsrazor> the electrodes are embedded in a glass substrate
<cyborg01> Oh I see..
<SpaceGhost> please tell me where your research will take us over the next 10-40 years?
<eclecticd> O.o
<Ocsrazor> Lets get this discussion back on track
<SpaceGhost> *novice here*
<Ocsrazor> OK
<eclecticd> OK!! :O)
<Ocsrazor> Our research has a few end goals SG...
<cyborg01> I was wondering about the electrodes used by cyberkinetics, not for neuron culture....
*gustavo* good, thanks... wasn't sure what people were expecting from that
<Ocsrazor> For clinical applications, we will hopefully produce more data for building the next generation of neural implants
<Ocsrazor> right now our resolution for reading neural signals is much lower than what is possible
<Ocsrazor> we need to learn how to manipulate data
<John_McCluskey> Are you guys planning to move to animal experiments (remote controlled rats, monkeys with robot arms, etc.) ?
<eclecticd> ahh! manipulate :O)
<eclecticd> that's key
<Jonesey> animal rights activists are really gonna have fun with that
<Ocsrazor> cyborg1 - I would refer you to Nicolelis or Donohue...
<eclecticd> Ocsrazor, what types of data do you need to manipulate & what tools do you use now to make sense of it?
<Ocsrazor> for details on their systems, but in short it is an insulated mirowire
<Ocsrazor> micorwire
<Ocsrazor> microwire :D
<bdc> what kind of resolution is possible? 1 neuron, 10 neurons, etc??
<Ocsrazor> John - no we are a completely in vitro lab
<cyborg01> How thin is the microwire? I guess >5 um at least
<Ocsrazor> but that is something I am interested in doing after completing my PhD
<Ocsrazor> cyborg1 youll have to go look at their technical specs
<cyborg01> OK..
<eclecticd> Peter, is there an example of some data online I can see of what data you analyze, & the tools you use?
<Ocsrazor> yes eclectic, we use a homebuilt software pkg that is freely available
<eclecticd> linkage?
<Ocsrazor> digging up the link
<Eliezer> BJK, can I say something off-topic in parallel for a second? I've got something I'd like to say about an inaccurate EY-quote in the Imminst forums, while Imminsters are listening
<BJKlein> please feel free Eliezer
<Eliezer> Incerdentally, I thought I'd just drop into this chat to say that I found a debate in the Imminst forum where a news article quoted me as saying that we only had a 2% chance of affecting the Singularity, and people were debating what I meant by that. The answer is that I never said any such thing, and the newspaper article is bogus. It's a misquote of an entirely different person at TV03.
<SpaceGhost> Whew!
<John_McCluskey> You are absolved, my son.
<Ocsrazor> MeaBench is the software pkg one of our grad students built and we all use here
<SpaceGhost> Eliezer, I'm sure glad you stopped by here to tell us that.
<Ocsrazor> eclectic -
http://www.its.calte...r/meabench.html<Eliezer> so, the moral is, if a newspaper article quotes me as saying something really strange, please don't overexplain it - the most likely explanation for a newspaper-reported oddity is that it never happened
<SpaceGhost> the suspense was killing me
<FutureQ> I have a somewhat lateral question for you Peter. Cybernetics is very important to me being disabled [quadriplegic] especially in the machine control interface area. I understand how those interfaces can be acheived. What puzzles me is some of the more far reaching such as perhaps knowledge downloading. Assuming memory of previous knowledge is 3D mapped in the physical interconnection of neurons, wouldn't knowledge downloading involve
<SpaceGhost> ; )
<eclecticd> thanks
<John_McCluskey> The "Pinelab"? At Caltech? Oh shit, I guess that means that Jerome Pine is dead. I worked for him as a student at Caltech...
<Ocsrazor> Jerry Pine is very much alive and well, and a pleasantly cantankerous old bastard :D
<SpaceGhost> Eli, so the Weekly World News was wrong about you meeting with time travelers who wanted to help you in your singularity research?
<Ocsrazor> he will be visiting us in 3 weeks
<John_McCluskey> Excellent! I'm relieved to hear it.
<kevin> Peter.. are researchers beginning to thing that we may be able to accomplish more with neural interfacing in the near future?
<kevin> *think*
*** Joins: MitchH (~john_doe@host-24-225-168-96.patmedia.net)
<Ocsrazor> FutureQ did you finish that question above?
<kevin> ...called away maybe..
<Ocsrazor> kevin - the field is progressing very quickly now...
<FutureQ> yes
<SpaceGhost> Ocs, for someone in FutureQ's situation, how many years till they probably will get the help they need from your field?
<Ocsrazor> there is this whole problem of there not being any data for middle level neuroscience
<BJKlein> SpaceGhost, you have a pm
<SpaceGhost> thank you
<FutureQ> Hoow could we interface with computers in a way that themeat could absorb some knowldge, is I guess the bottom line f my question.
<Ocsrazor> Back to FutureQ's
<Ocsrazor> ...
<Ocsrazor> That is a looooooong way off FutureQ, I recently responded to the same question on Betterhumans.com
<Ocsrazor> link coming
<FutureQ> thx
<Ocsrazor>
http://www.betterhum...ID=2004-01-16-2* eclecticd awaits the coming link :O>
<eclecticd> ah.
<Ocsrazor> that was a response to the question: Is it Possible to Download Knowledge into the Brain?
<John_McCluskey> I would argue that the reverse direction flow is far more useful. I *really* want to climb out of my skull.
<Ocsrazor> the short reply to that is that direct input of sensory information will be available soon
<Ocsrazor> but knowledge structures are tremnedously more complex
<Ocsrazor> and much easier John
<Ocsrazor> motor processing is one of the simplest types of coding in the nervous system
<kevin> Peter have you read anything on Stephen Thaler's 'Creativity Machine' ?
http://www.imagination-engines.com/<Keyliminator> Peter, a few years ago I read about "Neuroelectronic" non-invasive interfaces that used sensors in armbands to read hand motions and gestures. Sometimes, it seems to me, that solving problems with an "easy" method get no respect.
<cyborg01> Iv studied the problem of memory extraction for quite some time...
<Keyliminator> Here's a link I just dug up:
http://www.trnmag.co...put_020701.html<Ocsrazor> it is being done already by people like John Donohue and Migual Nicolelis John
<Ocsrazor> nope Kevin - I will check that oout
<Ocsrazor> Key - that stuff is far too simple for a robust interface
<Keyliminator> Well, I could type at 70 wpm with something like that, quietly and invisibly
<Keyliminator> while talking about another topic
<Ocsrazor> Key- you get very nonsmooth, not very fine control with those
<Keyliminator> with one hand
<Keyliminator> good enough for a chord keyboard and google
<Ocsrazor> unlikely Key
<Ocsrazor> very much doubt you could pick up the signals for finger control robustly enough to control a keypad
<Keyliminator> Even without this, the pocketable chord keyboards I have developed enable virtual telepathy
<Keyliminator> they did, apparently
<Keyliminator> with the proper wearable computer, that is.
<Keyliminator> though i really would prefer body-mounted computers.
<Keyliminator> i need titanium sockets implanted
<Keyliminator> here and there
<Keyliminator> another overly simple solution
*** Joins: Captain_Integral (~morpheus@ool-435006f9.dyn.optonline.net)
<Keyliminator> All my typing right now is being generated using a 7 key chording system
<Ocsrazor> interesting Key, I just read the article, but I would still rather have direct neural control if possible
<Keyliminator> sure, but it isn't either/or
<Ocsrazor> back on track
<Keyliminator> it always drives me crazy the expensive vr interfaces that you can't even type with
<Ocsrazor> I like data interface systems
<Ocsrazor> but we are talking about more long range systems I think
<Keyliminator> People have needs and problems now.
<Ocsrazor> Not my field Key, sorry
<Ocsrazor> I think in the 10-20 year time frame of technology development
<Ocsrazor> and I am most interested in interfacing to the CNS, not just to muscle
<Keyliminator> Well even when we can subvocally "think" questions to our implanted computers, sometimes we could use a haptic communications channel as well
<Ocsrazor> Let me ask a question of those here
<Ocsrazor> if an implantable cell phone were available within the next 5 years would you consider getting one?
* BJKlein throws a log on the fire
<BJKlein> yes!
<Keyliminator> No
<Keyliminator> might not be safe now
*** Joins: xeiox (~Sentient@ppp-68-20-0-49.dsl.emhril.ameritech.net)
<FutureQ> yes
<John_McCluskey> YESS! It had better have a downloadable contact list, though.
<JohnC> it would depend where it was implanted..
<Ocsrazor> there is every reason to believe it would be safe
<BJKlein> the sooner we start meshing the easier tis will be to upload
<FutureQ> assumingit was tested as safe
<Ocsrazor> would be somewhere in the mandible John
<MitchH> and have my head ring? Ring tones get stuck in one's head too easily as it is, I guess... might as well skip a medium.
<Keyliminator> Do you think today's handhelds are safe?
<Keyliminator> I think the jury is out.
<NorthLite> aren't they?
*** Joins: kevin (~kevin@mail.methuselahfoundation.org)
<ravi> i don't beleive cell phones are safe
<Keyliminator> google
<BJKlein> MitchH, perhaps a quick hum.. no need for ring tones that close to the brain/ear
<Ocsrazor> absolutely safe Key, I have read all the biophysical pubs on them
<John_McCluskey> I'd have one implanted in my butt, if it could surf the web.... But we definitely need glucose powered fuel cells.
<kevin> sign me up Ocs
<Ocsrazor> there isn't a shred of evidence that the emissions from cell phones can cause problems in biological tissue
<kevin> would you get one Peter?
<Jonesey> i'd get an implantable cell, sure.
<ravi> haven't there been documneted cases of brain cancer with extensive cell phone use?
<Keyliminator> Sorry, I hate that phrase "there isn't a shred of evidence" meaning I guess, that you are familiar with
<Ocsrazor> yes kevin, without hesistation, especially if I designed it :D
<kevin> LOL
<Ocsrazor> I know that literature very well Key
<Ocsrazor> want some pubs Key?
<FutureQ> There was a very recent controversial test with mouse brains that should lesions but we are mice.
<Jonesey> i don't see what implantation of a cell offers beyond extreme mininaturization
<Jonesey> once you get to something that's earring sized or less it doesn't really matter
<Jonesey> plus sometimes you don't want to be reachable anyway so u can take it off
<Ocsrazor> seemless integration, the device becomes part of you jonesey
<John_McCluskey> To be fair, it's unlikely we can support more than bluetooth power levels in an implant. It won't have the range of an external device.
<Jonesey> yep like another sense, that might have some appeal i guess
<FutureQ> it offers the beginning of being linked to eveyone and the knowledgeabse of all of history.
<Ocsrazor> I can make myself unreachable even with a cell phone that never leaves me now
<Ocsrazor> exactly FutureQ
<Keyliminator> Off googling, found this:
http://www.microwave...om/m-a00vws.pdf<Jonesey> i'm sure telemarketers on this chat are depressed now Ocsrazor
<FutureQ> sign me up!!!
<kevin> We'll become neurons ourselves..
<FutureQ> go bborg
<BJKlein> I would like to see instant conversion of speech to text.. thus i would have a running record of all calls.. and i do better reading a meassage than listening to it
<Jonesey> we are "neurons" in an organism called "society" i guess
<Keyliminator> But in any case, even if safe, I want a quiet, non-mouth requiring, way to communicate with it.
<FutureQ> However, hollywood's ipresiom of a hive mind was wayoff what it would really be like.
*** Joins: LuciferConnecting (~nemo@modemcable145.101-200-24.mc.videotron.ca)
<kevin> I personally can't wait.. and given that people would rather die in an accident than not talk on a cell phone.. I think that the vast majority of people would go for it as well..
<Ocsrazor> I already have fast internet access on my phone now, and have wireless on a tablet PC most places I go, these devices are becoming part of the way I think
<Keyliminator> And why would I need an implant, versus body mounted or worn? Maybe bone conduction transducers socketed eternally to my skull, but for that app you do not need to implant
<kevin> we are born divided and separate from each other. .the closer we can be connected.. (willingly of course.. ) the more we will like it.. we are a social organism with physical barriers to communicating that are being lifted.
<MitchH> Aye; My contact lenses are already so seamless that I see little point in laser surgery on my eyes.
<kevin> Information just loves to be transmitted.
<Jonesey> kevin there is an ongoing loss of privacy but ppl seem to feel that there are compensating benefits, no revolution so far against it
<Ocsrazor> Key: the site you listed above is a kook site, the transducers would be noticeably large and unwieldy with currnet technol;ogy
<Keyliminator> I would argue that contacts are much more dangerous than modified, super-light, body-mounted (socket above nose) glasses
<kevin> people will willingly give up privacy for security and convenience
<FutureQ> An implant approaches Jim BHalperins wrist device that kept eople safe from harm by ubiquitous transparent surveilance. Having it implanted means someone can't take it from you and do something unseen.
<Ocsrazor> implanting into the mandible would give you a very stable, long term interface
<Keyliminator> they already exist, I believe
<FutureQ> Jim Halperin "The First Immortal"
<Keyliminator> they would be invisible under the hair
<Keyliminator> So the Finnish research study was bogus or poor?
<Jonesey> of course ppl can take out implants
<Jonesey> process will be a lot more painful that's all
<Keyliminator> Or just bad conclusions in the summary of it?
<Ocsrazor> key, that article mis used the conclusions of the Finnish study
<John_McCluskey> Peter, the official chat is about over... care to make any prophecies, predictions or guesses about brain interfaces?
*** Joins: Don (~Don@dpc6935227010.direcpc.com)
<kevin> don't you think people would opt for wearable devices rather than implanting though Peter?
* BJKlein official chat ends - please feel free to stay longer
<Keyliminator> That was fun. Thanks, Bye
<Ocsrazor> wont be painful at all Jonesey, would be very small electronics
<FutureQ> afk
<Ocsrazor> Predicitions
<Jonesey> i dunno man, someone digging around with a knife in your face is painful no matter how shallow
<Ocsrazor> ----
<Ocsrazor> Over the next 10 years robust sensory input and motor output implants will become available
<Ocsrazor> jonesey, these will be very minor surgical procedures
*** Joins: Guessed (~Guessed@73-106-186-64.cga.aptalaska.net)
<Ocsrazor> btw for anyone who was curious, I just looked up the Finnish study mentioned above, which concludes there is an extremely weak association between cell phone usage and tumors of any sort
<John_McCluskey> I believe it, but anybody who comes down with brain cancer will cast about wildly for a cause. Cell phones are easy targets.
<Jonesey> crooks might opt for major surgery to dig it out, wat the heck
*** Joins: serenade (~jay@pcp02400442pcs.flint01.mi.comcast.net)
<John_McCluskey> But I gotta admit, I prefer the CDMA cell phone, since the TDMA models have *much* higher peak powers.... hmmm...
<Ocsrazor> I have done the biophysical calcs on cell phones myself and there just doesn't seem to be anyway to get the energy out of them necessary o do damage to biological tissue
<kevin> I'm of the mind that for techno freaks (like myself) an implant might be just the ticket.. but for 99.9 percent of everybody else.. a wearable detachable device will hold more promise.. at least in the next few years..
<Ocsrazor> how would you know if you had one Jonesey?
<Ocsrazor> the thing is kevin, in terms of stability and reliability of the device an implanted one is going to be far superior to anything external
<kevin> the idea of having a foreign object in your body is just not one that most people enjoy thinking about.
<kevin> I totally agree Ocs..
<kevin> but the gut reaction of the public at large will turn away from it.. at least in the short term.
<Ocsrazor> pacemakers, cochelar implants, replacement hips, etc are leading the way
<John_McCluskey> Oh yeah? tell that to the women who spend big bucks for bags of saline in their chests...
<kevin> all therapeutic...
<kevin> heh.. that's cosmetic John.. and therapeutic as far as they're concerned.
<kevin> now try to take my high speed away.. well.. I'd need therapy.
<eclecticd>
*** Joins: serenade (~jay@pcp02400442pcs.flint01.mi.comcast.net)
<eclecticd> likewise :O|
<Ocsrazor> agreed John, this will be used for mil/intelligence purposes at first but will give such an advantage to thse who get their hands on them...
<Ocsrazor> the tech will be nearly irresistible
<kevin> I think that implants will be very slow in acceptance by most people.
<eclecticd> yep
<John_McCluskey> Hmm... makes me wonder what the CIA and NSA have been developing in the back labs for the covert ops boys.
<Ocsrazor> I don't agree kevin, once the barrier is breached, it will be a gotta have device
<Ocsrazor> its not so in the dark John
<kevin> Ocs.. it will just be another divider to separate the technophiles from the 'naturalists'
<eclecticd>
<Ocsrazor> DARPA has a very open interest in brain machine interefaces
<Ocsrazor> they fund most of the research
*** Joins: kzzch (~kzzch@c68.115.14.8.stp.wi.charter.com)
<John_McCluskey> GIven how popular piercing is with the younger crowd, it wont surprise me to see implanted time displays (watches), cell phones, jewelry, etc.
<Ocsrazor>
http://www.darpa.mil...aa01-42mod1.htm<eclecticd> which is disappointing.. the memes aren't changing nearly as fast as the technology itself
<eclecticd> that's why a lot of new technology will not be used
<eclecticd> as pervasive as awe might think
<Jonesey> piercing is a pretty ancient human preoccupation John_McCluskey, you must be pretty old
<Ocsrazor> it is just going to take a killer app, and I think the implantable cell phone just might be it
<eclecticd> ..might be
<John_McCluskey> Wow Peter, that darpa page is downright scary!
<Ocsrazor> the mil/intel communities will use this stuff, and once business people can get there hands on it...
<Ocsrazor> talk about real time stock trading...
<kevin> becoming 'borg' may be a future fashion.. but I don't think it will be any time too soon.. heh
<John_McCluskey> yep, the first usable interfaces will cost so much that only the military and billionaires will be able to buy 'em.
<Ocsrazor> it is going to provide a ridiculous strong advantage in any arena where rapid action and thought makes you more competitive
<John_McCluskey> It will take only a single TV show to reverse the bad image of Borgs. Put a sexy guy (or gal) on screen with dynamite interfaces, and it will be all the rage in 3 months.
<NorthLite> hehe
<Ocsrazor> the expensive part is going to be the development John
<kevin> being forced to have an implant to stay competitive does not mean people are going to like it.. the reverse may be true.. with technology being used to monitor your 'performance' in which case it will not be nearly that popular.
<Jonesey> well look at the implants that exists now, how popular are breast implants for instance?
<Ocsrazor> I am very much against outside control of any devices such as these, as I suspect would be any potential user
<John_McCluskey> I wrote a slashdot comment last year, it comments on the future of implants.
http://slashdot.org/...587&cid=5287741<NorthLite> yea, it would be scary is someone could control something in you remotely
<NorthLite> *if
<Ocsrazor> kevin think of it in terms of the poor kids who can't use google to do their homework versus those who can
<kevin> exactly Ocs.. it is the beginning of an ever widening gap that technology will bring .. inevitably so..
<Ocsrazor> just read your piece John - agree completely - except for the FPGA thing
<Ocsrazor> :D
<Ocsrazor> agree completely kevin, and it is power differentials that scare the hell out of me too
<eclecticd> kevin, not necessarily inevitable, just the way it looks now
<eclecticd> :O/
<Ocsrazor> the are what destabilize societies, we may be looking at a speciation event
<kevin> it will be a LONG time before society advocates the 'enhancement' of the poor so that they can be competitive with the rich..
<kevin> my feelings as well Ocs.. a jump
<Ocsrazor> have a novel outlined in that general vein kevin
<Ocsrazor> :D
<NorthLite> i'm off to sleep, cya all
<kevin> I'm not entire sure we'll be able to reach escape velocity however before external forces.. ie. energy supply, war etc.. manage to kibosh the whole transhuman thing though.
<eclecticd> me neither.. :O/
<John_McCluskey> see you guys next week.. Thanks Peter, for the informative and interesting chat.
<kevin> ciao John.
<kevin> uw NL
<Ocsrazor> thanks John, cya
<kevin> *u2*
<Jonesey> kevin:Yes, human squabbliness is the biggest danger to anything
<Ocsrazor> kevin - I'm an optimist, but american society scares the hell out of me
<kevin> heh..
<Ocsrazor> I'm actually thinking of going out of country for my post doc work
<Jonesey> south korea?
<Ocsrazor> Brazil :D
<kevin> people may need to go to ground with some alternative energy sources and whatever tech can be gotten before it all goes to pot..
<eclecticd> ..to pot :O(
<eclecticd>
<kevin> Brazil..
very nice..
* eclecticd watches as the pot goes down the drain :O/
*** Joins: Utnapishtim (~jeromejth@82-45-233-193.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk)
<Utnapishtim> hi
<Ocsrazor> I think S. America and the S. pacific is where the innovation front is going to head to after the US loses its dominance
<kevin> hey Ut
<kevin> hmm.. Canada to cold for you Peter?
<Ocsrazor> Too cold and too socialist and too boring :D
<Ocsrazor> pretty counrty and friendly people though
<kevin> heh..
boring suits me fine.. chuckle.
<Ocsrazor> but far too overregulated
<kevin> agreed on the socialist aspects..
<eclecticd> we need to bring down the technological barriers, a central repository that connects minds & knowledge.. that will do the most good for allowingn our technology to come to fruition with less resistance
* eclecticd yawns :Oo
<eclecticd> i know i'm singing an old tune.. =O/
<Jonesey> brazil? where angry indians are storming farms to take their land back?
<Jonesey> sounds like fun
<Ocsrazor> I dont think you are ever going to have one physical location eclec
<Jonesey> rio and sao paulo are constantly tops in the world in murder rates
<Jonesey> battling with johannesburg and mexico city
<Ocsrazor> just need to do it with existing systems and connecting poeple through electronic means
<eclecticd> Peter, I didn't intend any physical location
<eclecticd> yep
<Utnapishtim> I live in britain... I absolutely do not undestand why it takes this many decades for europeans to figure out that socialism is an ineffective paradigm for social organisation.. I am bored at what slow learners they are
<kevin> when the net goes down because the electricity goes off.. you better have an offline generator and satellite transmitter handy.
<Ocsrazor> Jonesey, suits me fine - you can have peace or you can have freedom? :D
<kzzch> i don't know, i find the idea of universal health care appealing, utna.
*** Joins: Guest (~Guest@ACA8D6A1.ipt.aol.com)
<kzzch> especially since they seem to focus more on prevention than emergency treatment.
<Ocsrazor> I like societal safety nets kzzch but not the bureacracy that goes with them
<Utnapishtim> kzzch: The idea may be appealing... the execution is far from that
<Ocsrazor> exactly Ut
<kzzch> eh, like the beauracracy we've got over here is any better.
<kzzch> no beauracracy is efficient. it's the nature of the beast.
*** Joins: rav3n (raven@h24-76-171-29.wp.shawcable.net)
<Ocsrazor> kevin the institute they are building that I hope to go to is almost completely self sufficient
<kevin> hmmm.. very nice ocs..
<Utnapishtim> I live over here. WHY does it take this long for people over here to figure out that this way of doing things doesn't work??? How does canada maintain its allegiance to this ridiculous model when it has clear evidence of its inferiority on its very doorstep?
<Ocsrazor> you dont need Govt to build societal safety nets kzzch, we can build NGOs which would do a better job than a govt bureacracy
*** Joins: gjbloom (~gjbloom@dialup-67.31.154.198.Dial1.Denver1.Level3.net)
<kevin> too bad most of teh NGO's want you convert to Christianity
<Jonesey> Ocsrazor:freedom=having your land confiscated by people with guns for farms?
<Ocsrazor> exactly kevin, but imminst is an NGO :D
<Ocsrazor> and I ran one for a couple of years
<Ocsrazor> so go start yourself one :D
<kzzch> it'd be interesting to hear John's opinion on that.
<Ocsrazor> I'm planning on starting another one soon
<kevin> heh.. Canada's model seems to be working for most Canadians.. and that is the reason behind social organization.. for the haves to control the have nots by pandering to the lowest common denominator.
<BJKlein> which type of ngo peter?
<kevin> apathy is a horrible thing Ut
<FutureQ> Back from afk, The US is losing it's dominance in tech especially biotech due to the religious wrong er right.
<Jonesey> why aren't canadians flocking across the border like mexicans? mexico has less socialism right?
<Utnapishtim> kevin: most canadians are poorer than they should be BECAUSE of their adherence to this model in my opinion...
<kzzch> heh, and why then aren't more americans heading towards mexico?
<Jonesey> exactly kzzch
<Ocsrazor> they are in some cases kzzch :d
<Jonesey> fleeing all the socialism
<Ocsrazor> Baja Cali :d
<Ocsrazor> BJ - going to start a neuroethics nonprofit b4 we get scooped by the religious right
<Jonesey> well if u want to be naughty mexico is a lot easier place to buy cops that's for sure.
<kevin> People want a roof.. meals.. annd a way to provide a future for their children.. the hopes of the average person are not that high. and therefore they are relatively easy to please.. also most people are pretty lazy when it comes down to it
<Utnapishtim> Where I live it is considered heresy to even challenge it. Evidence that you are a cold unfeeling and meanspirited person...
<BJKlein> perhaps we should take it one step further and start an uploading rights ngo
<BJKlein> networked existance rights
<Ocsrazor> I dont believe in uploading though :D
*** Joins: Guest (~Guest@ACA8D6A1.ipt.aol.com)
<kevin> heh - >BJ now their is some provocative foresight
<kzzch> Then again, you could argue that the health care prospects of most americans would be better if they'd invest in health insurance and whatnot instead of buying a plasma tv or 54" projection screen, etc...
<gjbloom> Don't believe it's possible, or don't believe its moral?
<Ocsrazor> dont believe it is possible in the way most people conceive of it
<kzzch> Or don't believe it's really you after the fact
<gjbloom> Why's that?
<eclecticd> how do people conceive of it?
<Ocsrazor> gj it will be a very slow process of integration with our technology, not a sudden jump
<eclecticd> it's too ambiguous, since the technology isn't even close to being developed
<kevin> Ocs. .check out that link to Stephen Thalers general AI approach.. interesting..
<gjbloom> Hmmm... The common misconception is that we'll just do a hi-rez neural scan and map that over to a neural emulator in software.
<kevin> he may be able to model human intelligence sooner than we think
<gjbloom> By scanning, we don't need to know how it works on any scale but nano.
<cyborg01> Gjbloom: why is that a misconception?
<Ocsrazor> it ignores all the dynamics cyborg
<gjbloom> Because almost every first idea for doing something is wrong, so I just got in the habit of referring to first ideas as "original misconceptions".
<cyborg01> It doesn't
<FutureQ> maybe because the brain is a physical device in 3D?
<Ocsrazor> yes it does cyborg, you would have to freeze all the activity of dedritic spines to capture a mind
<cyborg01> FutureQ: that poses a problem for interfacing.. but not with scanning
<kevin> would you really though Ocs.. ?
<Ocsrazor> yes
<kevin> could we just approximate it to get a reasonable facscimile of ourselves?
<cyborg01> Yeah... freezing solves the problem
<gjbloom> Ocs, why freeze? Functional NMR works just fine on unfrozen stuff.
<Ocsrazor> the resolution on NMR is ridiculously low
<cyborg01> The resolution of NMR is pathetic
<FutureQ> I mean the behavior of the rain that produces intelligence would be fundamentally difernt than the 2D digital environment.
<Ocsrazor> you can't get even close to single cells with it
<Jonesey> NMR? u mean mri?
<Ocsrazor> yes Jonesey smae thing
<gjbloom> That ain't entirely so. I saw an article about a year and a half ago where magnetic vortices measuring just a few nm had been imaged.
<Jonesey> Ocsrazor:yep i know irwin hahn
<Ocsrazor> in a very high strength magnet with a tiny core
<Jonesey> know who that is Ocsrazor?
<gjbloom> Of course, these were a special case, being magnetic.
<cyborg01> That's with small samples gjbloom
<FutureQ> single cells NMR, let alone tendrils.
<gjbloom> True. But is there any fundamental reason NMR cannot progress to the needed res?
<Jonesey> was just kidding about anti nuke paranoia, that prompted the change from "Nuclear magnetic resonance" to MRI
<Ocsrazor> no Jonesey?
<gjbloom> I'm old skool.
<cyborg01> There are fundamental reasons
<eclecticd> or old fool?
<eclecticd> j/k
<Ocsrazor> yes there are physical limitations to its res gj
<gjbloom> both
<cyborg01> * wavelength *
<eclecticd> :D
* kevin say goodnight all..
<kevin> thnx OCS
<gjbloom> goodnight all
<kevin> ciao all
<Ocsrazor> and it wont be done through scanning for economic resaons
<eclecticd> night
<Jonesey> Ocsrazor:irwin hahn won the nobel for inventing nmr
<Ocsrazor> thanks Jonesey
* eclecticd burps
<eclecticd> :O>
<Ocsrazor> the way I see it happening is increasing robust interface devices
<gjbloom> How?
<Ocsrazor> until we can't tell the difference between our biological consciousness and the nonbiological part
<eclecticd> and how do we do that?
<gjbloom> Do we have non-corrosive neural interfaces?
<Ocsrazor> by just continuing along the same tech development path we are already on
<eclecticd> details, details, detail.. oh, that devil =O/
<FutureQ> The wa I see uploadinghappening for me is slowly as my brain is mapped by nano's over ages of ime.
<Ocsrazor> we already have those
<Ocsrazor> gj
<gjbloom> Ocs, and are we able to deploy them fairly densly?
<Ocsrazor> the use of nanomaterials will probably be used to create dynamic interfaces to neural tissue
<Ocsrazor> creating the type of mapping you are talking about
<Ocsrazor> gj yes
<Ocsrazor> ...
<gjbloom> That could work.
<eclecticd> how do you interpret the data coming out of seabench?
<eclecticd> mea
<Ocsrazor> right now state of the art is 800 microwire implants across the motor cortex
<eclecticd> how do you understand what the data is?
<gjbloom> Getting close.
<cyborg01> We need a 100million-fold increase in probing density
<eclecticd> I mean you see patterns, but how do you know what is what?
<Ocsrazor> eclectic - we build models of neural activity in software to try and understand what is happening in the culture
<FutureQ> if thes ords are in a suare grid, and the bneurons are randomly spaced, do the rods sometimes pierce some neurons or push them aside?
<Ocsrazor> maybe not cyborg...
<eclecticd> could you give me a simple explanation of how you can make sense of a particular pattern & what it means?
<gjbloom> I'd like to see a device that simply observes brain state, and when I feel I'm in "the zone", I hit a button and get rewarded from then on whenever I get back in "the zone".
<Ocsrazor> in this lab we are working on ways of extracting neural data statistically from large groups of neurons at once
<Ocsrazor> ...
<cyborg01> Well at least 10million times that
<Ocsrazor> yes, you will need lots of really tiny implants cyborg, but I see this as doable, even without nano
<Ocsrazor> ecelectoc...
<eclecticd> :?
<cyborg01> Yeah I figured out that too... microscale wires are all we need
<Ocsrazor> we observe the neural spikes we record and try and make sense of what groups of neurons are doing with any input we send in...
<eclecticd> give me an example of an input
<Ocsrazor> this is difficult, because we are working with a context-free system
<eclecticd> and a output, & what its significance is, if you can?
<Ocsrazor> we send in a particular patern of activity across our electrode array...
<Ocsrazor> and then watch the activity produced across the array
<eclecticd> and then go "eureka, I understand what the input & output means!?" :O)
<eclecticd> ..or no? :O\
<Ocsrazor> we are beginning to understand how neurons encode information in large groups
<FutureQ> Well, I must, maybbe see you all next week. Thanks for the chat Peter.
<Ocsrazor> which no one has figure out how to do experimetnally before
<eclecticd> bye FutureQ
<cyborg01> Cya
<Ocsrazor> CYA futureq
<FutureQ> bye all
<cyborg01> So what do you think is the neural coding like?
<serenade> bye FutureQ
<eclecticd> Peter, what type of information in particular?
<Ocsrazor> it is highly redundant cyborg, with neurons acting as center surrounds, little statistical weights on a field
<cyborg01> But you have ignored other possible forms of memory
<Jonesey> what's the most complex creature whose "brain" has been completely uploaded?
<Ocsrazor> like I said eclectic it is context-free at this point...
<eclecticd> so you cannot make sense of it..
<eclecticd> ?
<Ocsrazor> we give it meaning by feeding in particular patterns of data
<eclecticd> I mean you can see patterns change with inputs & outputs..
<eclecticd> but no idea of what they mean?
<Ocsrazor> we give it a sensory system
<Ocsrazor> all neural data is meaningless unless connected to some external event
<Ocsrazor> cyborg...
<eclecticd> give me an example of an external event
<Ocsrazor> what other forms of memory?
<Ocsrazor> any sensory event eclectic?
<eclecticd> yea
<eclecticd> one that makes it semi-easy to understand
<Ocsrazor> anything happening in the real world in which a neural system can sense and act on
<cyborg01> The brain maybe much more complicated than center-surround
<eclecticd> like what?
<Ocsrazor> im not saying the brain, just single neurons
<eclecticd> :O(
<cyborg01> What about dynamics such as attractors?
<Ocsrazor> the resonance between single neurons combines to set up field of very complex interaction
<Ocsrazor> exactly cyborg
<gjbloom> Do you think Moravec's estimate of computer vs. human intelligence is way off the mark?
<Ocsrazor> those are terms I think in
<cyborg01> Do you mean like a mathematical field
<Ocsrazor> gj YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Ocsrazor> yes cyborg
<gjbloom> By, like, orders of magnitude?
<Ocsrazor> he way undershot the mark gj
<gjbloom> So the equivalence of visual processing isn't a very representative benchmark?
<Ocsrazor> the human brain is THE most complex physical system we have ever encountered
<eclecticd> ..as you are so fond of pointing out
<eclecticd>
<Ocsrazor> it has hyperastronomical units of information contained in it
<Ocsrazor> yes eclectic
<cyborg01> I don't understand what you mean by "resonance"...
<gjbloom> hyperastronomical?
<cyborg01> My impression is that many neurons are only weakly coupled to each other
<Ocsrazor> 10^8000 bits of information storage may be possbile gj
<cyborg01> LOL that's impossible
<Ocsrazor> there is a paper which proved it roughly
<cyborg01> I'd say comparable to 10^14, a few orders more maybe
<Ocsrazor> 100 billion neurons with 100 trillion unique individual connections
<cyborg01> Counting the bits of information is quite meaningless
<Ocsrazor> there is definitely a variety of coupling strengths cyborg
<Ocsrazor> and it is a highly dynamic system, the coupling weights are constantly changing
<Ocsrazor> on the millisecond time scale
<kzzch> Timing of signals effects things as well, yes?
<Ocsrazor> btw the cyborg on resonance...
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Sounds like a very simple analog computer, with redudancy and parallelism
* OmniDo waves to the chan
* eclecticd the channel waves back to Omnido
<eclecticd> hello
<OmniDo> Greetings
<OmniDo> Whats the discussion tonight?
<eclecticd> howdy :O)
<gjbloom> g'night
<cyborg01> Yeah... Ocsrazor can you explain more about resonance..?
*** Joins: Reason (~Reason@h-67-100-90-41.SNFCCASY.covad.net)
<BJKlein> OmniDo, check
http://imminst.org/f...st=0#entry25104<Ocsrazor> Omni, not simple at all with thousands of very dynamic inputs
Reason is ~Reason@h-67-100-90-41.SNFCCASY.covad.net * Reason
Reason on #immortal #vpsummit
Reason using irc.lucifer.com [127.0.0.1] Excalibur IRCd
Reason has been idle 49secs, signed on Sun Feb 15 21:04:10
Reason End of /WHOIS list.
<eclecticd> :O?
<Ocsrazor> maybe simple on the single neuron level, but even there, not so simple
<Ocsrazor> btw cyborg 10^14 is a ridiculously low
<Ocsrazor> number
<Ocsrazor> why would counting bits of information be meaningless cyborg
<Ocsrazor> ?
<cyborg01> Because of redundancy etc
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: However, those inputs are constantly shifting information and biochemical makeup, but even as such, they are still limited to quantifiable degrees of function. Once all those chemical potentials and functions are known, the complexity of the numbers are easily crunched like any conventional math forumla.
<Ocsrazor> going to have to close up shop soon gang
<Ocsrazor> need to get some more work done tonight
<OmniDo> Dont get me wrong, the human neurological system is quite fascinating, but its still quite primitive in terms of accuracy and precision, to say nothing about durability.
<Ocsrazor> weird just got a bunch of posts all in one big lump
<OmniDo> And comparitively, it takes years, even decades to "program" a human, why the length of time needed to refine electronical equivalents and optimize code is no where near as lengthy.
<eclecticd> posts?
<Ocsrazor> catching up
<OmniDo> why = while
<Ocsrazor> Omni, it will come down to mathematics, but this is the most complex nonlinear system science has ever encountered
<OmniDo> What humans lack in precision, artifical systems will make up for with speed. And after speed has reached its efficient maximum, then the addition of efficient systems and programs will force human biology completely out of date.
<Ocsrazor> physics has barely got past the three body problem
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: True, true. And no matter what the area of discussion, its is still incredibly fascinating either way. 1,8 : )
<Ocsrazor> in terms of acccuracy and precision human neural systems are better than anything we can yet design
<OmniDo> Richard Feynman always placed the "blame" on our lack of understanding upon lack of effective observation. Analyzation is never a problem, as most of that is number crunching and a bit of creativity with abstracts. But as far as what we can readily observe, the limits are only what we can perceive and or theorize and then develop a way of perceiving to prove the theses.
<Ocsrazor> it is just hey exhibit it in terms of motor behavior and not in calculating formulas
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Yes. Action potentials and differentials.
<OmniDo> It exceeds our current digital system because of the enormous amounts of sheer numbers and comparitive adjustment/adaptation speeds.
<Ocsrazor> I fully believe we will need the assistance of machine intelligence to solve the problem and to determine alogrithms for analyzing prblems which are at the far end of dynamic complexity
<OmniDo> But imagine if similar systems were used for digital processes... the growth would increase exponentially, until the digital equalled and inevitably surpassed the biological.
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: I agree.
<Ocsrazor> absolutely agree Omni
<Ocsrazor> one of the key areas I'm looking for assistance is figuring out how to extract the essential features of the biological system...
*** Joins: serenade` (~jay@pcp02400442pcs.flint01.mi.comcast.net)
<OmniDo> I applaud your work Ocsrazor, I applaud it standing. thus far, you are the only member I am familiar with who is doing IRL R&D
<Ocsrazor> without getting bogged down in doing too many biological experiments...
<Ocsrazor> I want to find find the balance between empirical and theoretical that will allow me to move forward the quickest
<cyborg01> Ocsrazor: I'm doing something along that line with NEURON
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Has there yet been a "unification" of sorts with the known types of human biological neurons? Do they all use the same template? Or do they all variate with extreme differences in form, but similar function?
<Ocsrazor> cyborg the programming language NEURON?
<OmniDo> One would argue that all we would need is to determine how all neurons work, as far as electrochemical stimulus is concerned, both for reactive, sympathetic, and parasympathetic, based upon signal strengths.
<cyborg01> Simulator
<Ocsrazor> No Omni, and that is one area that desperately need to have a 'zoology' done on it
<Ocsrazor> the brain has more cell types than any other organ system and they are not well characterized into a state space of possible cell types yet
<Ocsrazor> people working in neural stem cells are beginning to fill in the chart though
<eclecticd> extract the essential features of the biological system
<OmniDo> Really? Hmm... interesting, since they all seem to work upon the same general principles, merely differnet chemical action potentials. What do you predict? Dozens? Or hundreds?
<eclecticd> what is considered essential?
<OmniDo> thousands would be a bit excessive... since the sheer number alone could account for trillions of variations.
<Ocsrazor> maybe 100 Omni
<Ocsrazor> probably less
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Thats a very good number then. 1,8 : )
<OmniDo> a few 100 types could easily be quantified in a zoology as you put it, and once those systems are understood, the rest is all analysis and stimuli testing.
<Ocsrazor> yep cyborg I'm familiar with it
<OmniDo> It might take a decade or two, depending on our tech as it evolves.
<Ocsrazor> Omni, I'm working on methods of doing automated microscopy to quckly analyze 1000s of neurons at once
<cyborg01> Ocsrazor what kind of information extraction fu need?
<cyborg01> * you *
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: 1,8 : ) Sounds excellent. Where do I sign up for R&D? 1,8 -.-
<Jonesey> what's the most complex organism whose brain is completely understood?
<Ocsrazor> need to do lots of experiments cyborg and try and match model behavior to real system behvior
<cyborg01> I see... that's more like parameter fitting
<Ocsrazor> ....
<Ocsrazor> we need to know what the minimum strucutral properties are to reproduce the information processing capabilities of the system
<cyborg01> Jonesey: probably along the lines of C elegans
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: One concern of mine is the template idea I was referring to earlier. Skin cells for example use this, where 99% of all the skin cells are almost nearly identical; adjusting for variations of use and areas of tension. Still, skin is skin, for the most part. You dont see too many variations with that. The body uses alot of such said templates, so I would only conclude that the brain and central nervous system would be no
<OmniDo> exception.
*** Joins: Chubtoad (~Chubtoad@h-68-166-91-209.CHCGILGM.dynamic.covad.net)
<Ocsrazor> i.e.
<Ocsrazor> do we need to know the ion channel makeup of every single cell in a culture...
<cyborg01> Ocsrazor: that's an interesting topic...
<Ocsrazor> or is it good enough to know just general ratios of cell types in a network
<OmniDo> Id vote for the latter
<Jonesey> why not keep up moving up the complexity chain of animals instead of trying to solve humans which are the most complex?
<Ocsrazor> Jonesey - no organism with a true brain is understood at this point
<OmniDo> Since no one cell can be said to contain any absolute degree of information, but a collective of hundreds or thousands might spell the word "Red", and continue to be references as such with relation to the other combinatorial patterns of stored info.
<cyborg01> Ocsrazor: but the observed data is highly chaotic...
<Ocsrazor> Im of the same opinion Omni, that networks store info, not individual cells
<OmniDo> Undertanding the "basic" fundamental function of all those cells, and then analyzing their combinatorial intergration should more than suffice for creation of a synthetic system of comparable function.
<Ocsrazor> right cyborg that is the next level up, once you have general structure, then you play the dynamics across it
<Ocsrazor> Jonesey, neuroscience is beginning to work at all levels simultaneously
<Ocsrazor> cyborg and Omni, first we need to have the right parts list, then we can try and put thing together correctly
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Agreed.
<Jonesey> are there species that have a greater number of types of neurons than humans?
<OmniDo> Jonesey: Its possible, but what would be the point?
<OmniDo> We already dont use the majority of neural architecture that we have available
<Ocsrazor> yes Cetaceans, but the structure of their brains is less complex
<Ocsrazor> also elephants
<OmniDo> More specialized structures Im sure, but less complicated.
<Ocsrazor> sorry Jonesey...
<Ocsrazor> I misread your questions
<Ocsrazor> that is a no
*** Joins: serenade (~jay@pcp02400442pcs.flint01.mi.comcast.net)
<OmniDo> Hence a reason why humans are useless on our own. Our instincts arent as fine tuned and specific as natural wild species.
<Ocsrazor> cetaceans and elephants have more total neurons but most likely less cell types
<OmniDo> Yet our complexity lets us analyze far beyond the known capability of any other species. Perhaps Dolphins..
<Ocsrazor> or the same
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: Then again, as I said earlier, take a look at the required programming time.
<OmniDo> We're talking decades
<OmniDo> Most species are self-sufficient in a few years or less.
<Ocsrazor> completely agree Omni...
<Ocsrazor> much evidence building that the difference between us and chimps...
<Ocsrazor> is in the way our neurons organize and remodel in response to learning
<OmniDo> personally, id vote for the return to simplicity, using more advanced systems. Get humans back on par with nature, using artificial systems to expedite our already evolved learning system.
<OmniDo> If I remember, Drexler proposed the contained functionality and cognitive memory of a human being could exist within 1 cubic centimeter of a nano-neural network.
<Jonesey> much smaller if it's a quantum computer.
<OmniDo> Jonesey: True. But Quantum computing is still theoretical, as far as Ive read. There are still many ambiguities left to overcome, and many physicists argue whether they can be overcome at all.
<OmniDo> Ocsrazor: All good stuff. I hope your research goes well.
<Ocsrazor> I would agree with Drexler in principle Omni
*** Joins: deego (deego@24-197-159-102.cpe.ga.charter.com)
<Ocsrazor> got about 3 years left here hopefully
<Ocsrazor> OK yall, I'm off to do some lab work
<Jonesey> quantum computers have been built already, what r u talking about?
<OmniDo> Catcha later Peter. 1,8 : )
<Jonesey> the universe itself is a big quantum computer
<Ocsrazor> must get some stuff doen tonight
<OmniDo> Good hearing ya again.
<Jonesey> and every possibly subsection of it.
<cyborg01> Cya
<Ocsrazor> bye all
<Jonesey> it's not theoretical.
<OmniDo> Jonesey: Personally, I think alot of quantum theory is bunk, based upon ambiguity. I completely discount the "Light decides where it was/is/will be only after its observed" theory. Im sorry, but that makes absolutly no logical sense to me.
<OmniDo> Thats no more logical than a tree falling in a forest and not making a sound, simply because there was no sentient presence to hear it.
<OmniDo> Some of the theory makes sense, but its specialized and compartmentalized.
<OmniDo> I by no means hold it as true, and neither did Einstein. HOwever, if it is later proven to be such, then there will be more questions to answer after the fact, rather than t
