<BJKlein> Supplements for Mental Enhancement
<BJKlein> Advanced Orthomolecular Research (AOR), Canada’s most advanced supplement formulator, joins ImmInst to discuss supplements which may improve cognitive ability.
<AORsupport> Yessir.
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=4699<BJKlein> wonderful... feel free to set caveats
<BJKlein> or perhaps you'd like to me to dive into questions?
*** Joins: ddhewitt (~ddhewitt@c-24-2-134-73.client.comcast.net)
<BJKlein> hmm
<AORsupport> I set my caveats above ... I'm ready for questions., yes,
<BJKlein> ah sorry.. missed them.
<Lemon> This discussion is not lively at all... where's Nootropi?
<BJKlein> how long have you been researching anti-aging supplemnts?
<ddhewitt> I missed them too.
<AORsupport> About 10-12 years. Had a minor personal crisis, realized my mortality, decided to do something about it.
<BJKlein> how did AOR get its start?
<AORsupport> Caveats, again: Hi folks! Just a few caveats before we get started:
<AORsupport> How AOR got started: the Director was asked by AIDS advocacy representatives to procure some hard-to-get items, and eventually began doing custom formulations. It slowly grew from there.
<BJKlein> hmm, for some reason the caveat post is not showing
<BJKlein> do you think we'll find a pill to cure aging.. or will it take more?
<AORsupport> Definitely not a pill, IMO: too many mechanisms, and drugs as such tend to mess around with metabolism; Aubrey de Grey has outlined a 7-pont set of targets and interventions which clearly can't be addressed with pills alone.
<prometheus> So how far can supplementation take us?
<AORsupport> Re: caveats: I see them ... can one not cut and paste?
<BJKlein> cut and paste 'should' work
<nate-b> A related question to prometheus': Can supplemenation prime us for transhuman intelligence?
<AORsupport> Not sure what you mean, here. Supplementation seems only likely to shift metabolic priorities within the existing genetic toolkit and to alleviate deficiencies; does that address your question?
<nate-b> transhuman intelligence = recursive self-enhancement... (because i know we are already transhuman in certain sense by taking cognitive supplements)
<nate-b> AOR: yes
<BJKlein> sorry about the posting problem, but can you outline briefly your caveats for us?
<AORsupport> Let me try another pasting which should be plain text: Hi folks! Just a few caveats before we get started:
<BJKlein> may try to break it down into small chunks?
<AORsupport> Was that visible?
<BJKlein> sorry, no
<ddhewitt> What about enhancement versus alleviating deficiencies? Are the supplements distinct for these two functions?
<BJKlein> how many supplements do you take per day, AORsupport?
<nate-b> AOR: Is there any correlation between lean body mass and human cognitive potential?
<AORsupport> OH, jeez ... I haven't added it up in a while, but it was 42 a year or so ago. I'm always tweking, however.
<unixwall> what is Pikamilon ?
<AORsupport> Duane: I'm not convicned that there are, no. What I mean is that the brain and NS can only operate within its wown genetic parameters; when you enhance your mental function, it's because you're providing the materials needed to fully carry out those functions, and/or relieving secondary things (eg oxidative stress) that are inhibiting it.
<Elrond> AOR: what specific positive effects have you noticed from your regime? What positive effects would you not expect to notice?
<ddhewitt> So you see it as an optimization process?
<AORsupport> Elrond: on the cognitive side, more alertnes, clarity, and motivation; probably more memory.I'm not sure what I would *not* expect.
<AORsupport> Duane: In the precise sense of optimization, yes. "Personal best" as it were. But also, there are metabolic tradeoffss.
<ddhewitt> What type of trade offs?
<Elrond> well one might not notice slowed age related memory decline
<AORsupport> Elrond: yes, but you can't notice that you haven't noticed it
. That is, I can know how I feel before and after taking a big serving of phenylanlanine, but I can't know what I would OTHERWISE have felt after taking R(+)-LA for 30 years.
<Elrond> heh, of course. I suppose the correct question to ask would have been "What positive effects would you expect from your supplement program that you deduce from the research that may not be apparent?"
<AORsupport> Duane: a person might on one occasion need more excitation of a system to function optimally, and more inhibition at another time; if one doesn't pick the right direction, one might go off in the wrong direction. Perfect coolness under pressure and a great deal of alertness might be incompatible even though might won't be useful.
<Lemon> " even though might won't be useful" Please rephrase
<AORsupport> Elrond: the Hagen/Ames research seems to show pretty clearly that the RLA/ALCAR cocktail is quite effective at restoring a variety of age-relatd cognitive deficits, keeping various brain components in working order, and restoring mitochindrial function. Methylcobalamin has some pretty wide-spread neuroprotective effects. I would broadly expect that people taking these supplements would keep more brain function POTENTIAL, as well as
<AORsupport> This might all become very important to taking advantage of future enhancing technologies: you need a healthy substrate, etc.
<AORsupport> <AORsupport> Duane: a person might on one occasion need more excitation of a system to function optimally, and more inhibition at another time; if one doesn't pick the right direction, one might go off in the wrong direction. Perfect coolness under pressure and a great deal of alertness might be e incompatible even though each might individually e useful.
<nate-b> AOR: agreed
<Elrond> to what extent does rla tend to polymerize?
<AORsupport> Did the comment to Duane come through?
<ddhewitt> It came through twice.
<nate-b> As far as cognitive supplementation goes, are there any intravenous products? If not, is it possible that they'd be more effective than oral products?
<ddhewitt> Thanks
<AORsupport> Test.
<nate-b> *oral (and nasal) ...
<ddhewitt> Test showed up.
<BJKlein> more personal question, but do you think there is anything after death, AORsupport?
<AORsupport> DUane:/Lemon: I mean, did the CORRECTED versioin come through?
<nate-b> AOR: yes
<Lemon> AORsupport: Yes. Thank-You.
<AORsupport> NAte-b: "Oral and nasal"?
<AORsupport> Nate-b: oh, sorry. I can't think of any, off the top of my head. Most of the early trials on citicoline and alpha-GPC were IV, but later trials seem to show that the oral versions are just as active.
<unixwall> alpha-GPC i feel sleepy when i take . why is it a nootropic ?
<AORsupport> BJ: Not unless you count misery and undertakers' paycheques
.
<BJKlein> heh.. so you would say 'death = oblivion' ?
<AORsupport> Unixwall: it has nootropic powers in part as a source of choline with high BBB penetrability, but mostly because of its restorative actions on a subclass of cholinergic neurons. Your instance may be an example of the tradeoff issue I was mentioning above. Choline is fundamentally an inhibitory neurotransmitter (meaning ACETYLcholine) and if your cholinergic tone is already high, it might just zonk you. Similarly, there are antidepr
<AORsupport> BJ: yes, definitely. I think that the idea of a nonphysical soul somehow twinned with a physical body has serious logical problems. This is it -- so I want more!
<BJKlein> excellent.. thanks.
<AORsupport> Nate-b: the big problem for smart drugs is likely the BBB, not the GI; even ifyou could get NGF past the GI, it would still not reach the brain. We need a very clever solution for peptides alnd likely for others known (to others) and unknown.
<nate-b> AOR: I'm not sure whether you missed this question earlier, or if it's within your domain, but do you know if there is any known empirical correlation between lean body mass and human cognitive potential? [lean body mass = body weight * (100 - body fat %)] I ask because Asians seem to generally have lower body mass and more powerful cognitions...
<BJKlein> this brings us to the end of our offiical chat hour.. please feel free to stay longer
<nate-b> And if this is so, I'm wondering if it's also worthwhile to minimize not only body fat but muscle mass.
<Lemon> AORsupport: What about ALCAR Arginate in replace of NGF?
<AORsupport> Nate-b: I hadn't seen that, no ... I'm not aware of any such data. I'm also not sure that Asians are genuinely any more intelligent than other 'racial' groupings. It would be interesting to see some prospective studies.
<nate-b> AOR: Thanks.
<AORsupport> Hm. Interestingly, however, some CR studies do seem to show imiproved cognitiion in the short term in addition to long-term preservation, which MIGHT suggest such an effect, or at least be consistent with it.
<ddhewitt> Have any studies been done in order to attempt to quantitate cognitive enhancement by supplements?
<nate-b> AOR: Hadn't known about those studies on CR in relation to improved cognition. That's good to know.
<Schaefer> nate-b: I don't know about lean body mass, but overall body mass correlates positively with intelligence.
<nate-b> Schaefer: Do you mean the lighter the better?
<Schaefer> No. The heavier the better.
<Schaefer> Same with birth weight.
<AORsupport> Schaefer: correlates *positively*? Any chance you have a citation?
<nate-b> Schaefer: That's interesting. Why would you think this?
<Schaefer> AORsupport: The g Factor by Arthur Jensen mentions it. I could probably find the exact study by googling around.
<ddhewitt> What about early head circumference?
<nate-b> Now, I'm not implying that heavy people can't be very intelligent. I'm only speaking on general terms.
<Lemon> Please focus people. This chat is: Supplements for Mental Enhancement.
<Schaefer> Lemon: The official chat has ended, no?
<nate-b> Schaefer: Thanks. I'll need to look into that. That could put a bent on one's choice to become lighter or heavier for the sake of cognitive enhancement.
<Schaefer> nate-b: I have doubts that would have any significant impact.
<Schaefer> It seems more plausible to me that prenatal conditions that cause cognitive deficiencies also cause low body weight.
<AORsupport> Schaefer, Nate: another point is the by-now-well-established risk of obesity(or rather, high BMI) on riskk of Alzheimer's and other dementias .. even if there is a short-term benefit, the long-term is different. Cf also the Ames dwarf mice: low IGF1, very well-preserved brains compared to normals.
<Schaefer> Cigarettes during pregnancy, stuff like that.
<AORsupport> Schaefer: do you recall what (if any) mechanism was posited?
<nate-b> Lemon: I would hope that we are focused in virtue of exercising and dieting are cognitive supplements.
<Schaefer> AORsupport: For why the correlation exists between IQ and body mass? No, I don't recall.
<AORsupport> Schaefer: good point. Again, a prospective design would be needed to tease this out; also looking awt weight gain/loss vs. simple weight.
<AORsupport> Surprising, because anecdotally one envisions very brainy people as skinny.
* Lemon notes that exercise is overwhelmingly regarded as positive on health. The discussion here is Supplements and Mental Enhancement.
<Schaefer> Well, depends on who you're sampling.
<Schaefer> Spanning far enough along the economic spectrum, "low body mass" means "malnourished".
<Schaefer> Ergo, low IQ.
<nate-b> Lemon: This is a matter of semantics. "Supplements for cognition" doesn't exclusively entail "nootropics".
<AORsupport> I'm visualizing the steriotypical teenaged nerd ... OTOH, I've met plenty of overweight scientists ... But theat's mostly been consistent with middle-aged paunch.
<AORsupport> Schaefer: another good point.
<AORsupport> On the main subject: If anyone is interested, I've posted on the Forums on the following as bunk: current PS supplements, pregnenalone, idebenone (which may also be dangerous for healthy folk).
<AORsupport> Nate-b: To be fair, "supplements" does normally mean "dietary supplements," not something like "supplementing the standard North American lifestyle"
.
<nate-b> hehe
<nate-b> I won't argue with the guest.
<Lemon> AORsupport: What do you know about ALCAR Arginate in regard to it's reported claim to work as well as NGF for growing neurites
<Lemon> ?
<nate-b> Lemon: Why the tension? Relax.
<BJKlein> heh
* Lemon just took a full nootropic stack (kidding;)
<nate-b> hee-hee. i know the feeling
<AORsupport> Lemon: I can't find anything on this specific compound. On the other hand, "reduced the NGF levels in the basal forebrain of treated animals, especially in the intermediate performance group. These results suggest a performance-dependent effect of ALCAR and a nonlinear relationship between NGF levels and learning ability in aged rats." -- Exp Gerontol. 1996 Sep-Oct;31(5):577-87.
<AORsupport> That was cut & paste; did it come through? Including the reference?
<nate-b> yes
<AORsupport> To be clear: the compound in the cited study was ALCAR, not the arginate.
<BJKlein> AORsupport, do you expect to become more than human one day?
<AORsupport> Ah: found Neurochem Res. 1995 Jan;20(1):1-9.. This is in vitro work; I would want to see an in vivo study, especially granted the Exp Gerontol result.
<AORsupport> BJ: What, are you saying I'm not already
.
<BJKlein> heh, well...
<BJKlein> you do impress
<BJKlein> but not quite IRobot
<nate-b> I still watch that movie, if only to get lost in inspiration from that Audi.
* nate-b sorry lemon
<AORsupport> Seriously: at the very least, I am hopeful of arresting aging, which will arguably be superhuman in some sense. Likely some enhancements as well. But I don't believe that eg. 'uploading' is a logically coherent goal (you might create a facsiile or simulation, but identity can't be transferred -- also, I'm not sure that I'd want such. I want to be a young healthy vigorous 'me,' rather than something else (I thik).
<AORsupport> Folks, my llady fair is calling -- I must away. Good chatting!!
<BJKlein> wonderful to have you!
<nate-b> Thanks a lot AOR!
<BJKlein> thanks for taking the time.. return anytime.
<ddhewitt> Thanks
<Lemon> Thanks AOR
<nate-b> Good night BJ and all.
<BJKlein> nighy nate
