<BJKlein> Brian Appleyard? Good of you to join us.
<Bryan1> That's me. Nice to be here
<BJKlein> Great! Welcome, Bryan, thanks for joining us.... I understand it's very late in England where you're joining us from, so let's get started.
<Bryan1> I am
<Bryan1> sorry 1am
<BJKlein> Official Chat starts Now.
<Bryan1> Okay should I say a few things?
<BJKlein> Please.
<Bryan1> Well, i'm writing a book on immortality
<Bryan1> It starts from the science but it's not a science book
<Bryan1> It's about the history and culture of the idea
<Bryan1> I'm interested in what people want and why they want it when they talk about immortality
<BJKlein> Do you have a title for the book yet?
<Bryan1> I guess here we're talking about physical immortality
<BJKlein> yes.
<Bryan1> Just Immortality at the moment
<Bryan1> But I like Speculum Mortis - the Mirror of Death., Publisherould hate that
<BJKlein> "the Mirror of Death" ... Can you tell me, in your opinion over the past 100 years, has biotech been a net positive or negative for humans?
<Bryan1> I don't think I can answer that directly
<BJKlein> i meant to say i like the the title "the Mirror of Death"...
<Bryan1> It's more a case of a slow change. What we mean by biotech is only 52 yrs old- ie since DNA was decoded
<Bryan1> The Mirror of Death relates the to theological change that hjappened around the fifteenth century when judgment was sadi to happen at the moment of death rather than far in the fyuture
<Bryan1> This menat that on dying a person saw their entire life assessed
<Bryan1> - it relates to the lfie review phenomeon people talks about in njear death experiences
<Bryan1> sorry about typing - It's late
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<BJKlein> got it. the "light" people say they see...
<ag24> <BJKlein> got it. the "light" people say they see...
<BJKlein> no worries about typos we all do it
<Bryan1> exactly. Also in the insistcence in US fundamentalism on being transported to heaven in the twinkling of an eye
<ag24> heh that's new, a copy of the last mesage
<ag24> Hi Bryan - what are you doing up at this time of night?
<Bryan1> I arranged to be here. Above and beyond the call of duty
<Bryan1> Does everybody here want to/expect to be immortal?
<Jonesey> i want to, and i'm making "best efforts". Expect to is strong for what I feel, i think it's more likely I will fail than that I will succeed. But I'll have a lot of fun trying.
<BJKlein> DO you have a view of the feasibility or reality of the "light" or transportability to "heaven" or do you focus more on the fact the people say they see/feel it...
<ag24> I want to avoid dying of old age - that's all, for now anyway
<Jonesey> i want to avoid dying.
<Bryan1> I am absolutely neutral on what people believe or feel. Those things are inmgteresting to me as phenomena
<Bryan1> It seems to me the way we veiew death says a lot about the way we view life
<Bryan1> The philosopher Wittgenstein once asked - to what puzzle is immortality the solution?
<BJKlein> death = oblivion (for BJ) for Susan (BJ's wife) strong desire to live as long as possible healthy without the physical decay
<Bryan1> Yes one of the interesting things about new tech possibilites is that thery would not just malke you live longer, they would make you young again.
<Bryan1> I think that would be a huge sellinjg point
<BJKlein> young again to the point that it would be very VERY difficult to die -- since we can repair any structure
<ag24> "Immortality" is a counterproductive term in this - some people here feel that it's all about avoiding death forever,
<Jonesey> heh too bad he never wrote tractatus mortico-philosophicus
<Bryan1> Jonesey. what are your best efforts?
<Bryan1> well, quite
<Jonesey> Bryan1 calorie restriction with "optimal" nutrition, moderate exercise, cryonics upon death
<Bryan1> well, statistically an immortal person will die of an accident one day -
<ag24> but others feel that it's a question of choice - the problem is that at present aging at age ~100 is inevitable.
<Jonesey> yep ag24
<BJKlein> Bryan: how long do you want to live?
<Jonesey> CRON and exercise are not very effective against this
<Bryan1> That's a good question and Ive been thinking about it a lot. My family tends to die young
<Bryan1> I have often thought if I would take an immortality/ rejuvenation pill, I like to think I wouldn't but suspevct I would
<Bryan1> But then I would become somebody quite different with different connections to the world
<Bryan1> How sever is your caolrie restriction, Jonesey
<Bryan1> God tis typ9ing...
<Jonesey> I don't know Bryan1, didn't measure it before i started trying to restrict calories
<ag24> Ah, that may be a dangerous assumption ryan - how differen would you be?
<Bryan1> Try these thoiught experimentts:
<Jonesey> but i've averaged a bit more than 1500 cals/day over the past 7ish yrs i would say.
<Bryan1> I am made immortal, what changes?
<Bryan1> Everybody is made immortal, what changes?
<BJKlein> Bryan: you "change" every 10 years or so now -do you not? in your research on biotech do you feel optimistic your life will be exptended beyond your current expectations...
<Jonesey> for me, free of time constraints, physical deterioration, death etc.
<Bryan1> Oh Okay, that's safe, Jonesey. We don't know if long term calorie restriction causes brain damage in humans
<Jonesey> if everyone else is immortal, free of grief and trauma from losing lost ones
<Bryan1> Possibly not me, BJ, I'm 53 so it's a bit late perhaps
<Bryan1> But my daughter';s willbe
<Jonesey> well we have a pretty good idea it doesn't up to a point, by looking at human populations with low calorie intakes which are not obviously deficient in some way or another
<Bryan1> Yes but does love last forever really. I think we love dying things
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<woccam> (Toronto-HSE-ppp3864700.sympatico.ca) woccam >>
<ag24> Bryan - just realised ou might not connect that ag24 = Aurey de Grey
<woccam> Hi
<BJKlein> Could we also say that "love" and feelings we now have will change (perhaps become better, more refined) with longer lifespans
<Bryan1> IOh hi, Aubrey, fancy meeting you here
<BJKlein> we still love our 86 year old grandmothers and they love us...
<Bryan1> Maybe. I just want to stiumulate responseds as I think these are thje big questions
<BJKlein> Bryan: Do you think there is anything after death?
<Bryan1> Well, I've always been brought up to think there is and I have religious instincts. But, to be honest, no.
<Bryan1> I am very drawn to a certain English idea of immortality a sbecoming part of the landscape. Poetic immortality
<Bryan1> Aubrey, I want to meet up again soon
<BJKlein> Can you define this a little more (ie "poetic immortlity")
<ag24> Bryan - yes - you must suggest a time
<Bryan1> Well, the ancient Greeks spoke of immortality as a kind of fdame- you did great things and became part of the history of Athens, for example.
<Bryan1> But the great enviornmentalist James Lovelock spoke of immortality as returning to the enviornment of Gaia - the living plant.
<Jonesey> no interest in becoming part of the landscape here. what am i, an immortal potted plant?
<Bryan1> I think one way of seein immortality is returning to a larger system
<BJKlein> If you are dead - and there is nothing after death -- you will not know "fame" what benefit is it to you?
<Bryan1> Noen whatsoevr in our terms. To the Greeks it was everything
<Bryan1> These are not ways of sustaining slefhood
<ag24> yeah - pathetic, isn't it, how such great thinkers can make these excuses for our physical mortality ... I prefer Woody Allen
<Bryan1> They are ways ogf undetrstanding what we are and where we come from.
<Bryan1> I met him a couple of months ago. You wouldn't prefer him if you did
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<ag24> Try me!
<Bryan1> Dinstinctly creepy
<ag24> Creepy is more human than dead
<Bryan1> ah okay
<Bryan1> I'm not putting a case here, I'm just talking around the subject
<BJKlein> My wife thinks with a child she leaves eomthing behind -- even if she no longer can "feel" or see the future of the child it is comforting to her to know a piece of her is remembered... interesting -- like the Greek idea.
<Jonesey> she will definitely be leaving a lot of money behind, especially if she pays american university tuition for that child.
<Bryan1> Exactly. Irrespctive of whether we achieve physical immortality, these are the ways in which the idea has been fomed in our imaginations
<BJKlein> Jonesey: haa..
<ag24> I agree with the view that having children leaves *something* behind; however, I think that being one's own next generation leaves more.
<Bryan1> That's a complex point, Aubrey. Why should I be more than my children?
<Jonesey> yep ag24, i quite like my pricey little offspring, but their survival is not my survival. they're quite distinct human beings.
<ag24> Bryan - because the whole is more than the sum of its parts, basically -- the more you know, the faster you learn
<Bryan1> I see that. So a macimum accumulation is better than a constant restarting. We have to meet to talk about this
<Bryan1> We didn't cover this stuff when we last spoke
<woccam> If we live and learn forever we'll have to increase our memory capacities somehow
<BJKlein> i would want my offsroing to survive - but my child is not me -- once i'm gone that's the end of "me" The goal to me is not do loose "myself" If i am gone i have failed.
<ag24> bryan - no, we only ha a few hours!
<ag24> bjk - "lose", please!
<Bryan1> Woccam, that's an important point. In a 1000 yr lifespan, how muchy would we remember
<Bryan1> Philosopher called Johyn Harris has written about this
<ag24> sorry, but this is the #1 grammatical idiocy these days...
<Bryan1> Aubrey can be strict
<Jonesey> ag24 haha that burns me up too
<BJKlein> Achieving the capacity to live forever will change everything we associate with our day-to day now and that includes our physical bodies
<Jonesey> woccam we do very well remembering the accumulated wisdom of human civilization as much as we care to
<Bryan1> Yes it's the changes I am interested in. I don;t think people appreciate hpow fundakmental they wouldbe
<Jonesey> i think we'll be fine with experiences
<ag24> woccam - memory: not at all clear - it is holographic. Very hard to predict how it will behave with longer lives.
<Bryan1> Interesting how memory behave sin short lives
<Jonesey> yep good point, memory is superbly compressive
<Bryan1> I seem to remember more as I get older
<BJKlein> ag24 thx ;-)
<BJKlein> Why do we think our "memory" capacity in the future will be as it is now?
<Bryan1> Assiuming biotech developments, it may be expanded - or via computers I suppose
<Bryan1> Look at andoirds in Blae runner- they think they are human if thye are given fake oldmemories
<BJKlein> With biotech humans will not become statis but will continue to evolve and change --more rapidly in fact to include memory retention
<ag24> I have a very open mind on the potential to increase memory - I just wat to warn against the assumption that we would NEED to raise memory even with a modest life extension.
<BJKlein> static
<Bryan1> I think we are all assuming that memory equals the self or the continuous self at least
<Bryan1> This is arguable
<woccam> So no need for offspring?
<Bryan1> Depends on how you define the need
<Bryan1> we arre driven to reproduce nit by rational calculation
<Bryan1> not
<BJKlein> some people will still want offspring (like my wife) but the majority will want to wait since there will be no rush or physical "alarm"
<Jonesey> well there are other roots for wanting offspring, vanity, conformity, maybe even just liking kids
<Bryan1> Children are a kidn of relief - they free one from the burden of just being me
<BJKlein> also the "need" or desire for child will not be to continue a part of one's self
<Bryan1> Hard to explain that but it's how I feel
<Bryan1> No children will not be used for immortality
<BJKlein> what has suprised you most from your reseaech on biotech -- or impacted your life?
<ag24> I agree on children withboth Bryan and Bruce - and even Susan :-) -- it's currently perceived as the main stumbling block, but in truth is's something that's already changing incredibly fast inmsociety today!
<Bryan1> It is changing but in many different directions
<Bryan1> This children thing is very important, I am beginning to realise
<BJKlein> for Susan --it's all she talks of now .. "biological clock ticking" and all...
<Bryan1> Women have this strong feeling of hjaving just one chance
<ag24> tell Susan from me - it is INCONCEIVABLE (pardon the pun) that she will be unable to conceive at age 65
<BJKlein> yes. It's hard to explain to her that in the future she have more choices and no pressure of having it "now"
<Bryan1> How old is Susan?
<BJKlein> 30
<Bryan1> Well, Aubrey may well be right
<Bryan1> Though there is a paradox here
<ag24> 0see, even a journalist agrees
<ag24> :-) , I hope
<Bryan1> Biotech offewrs more chances to conceive but also offers immortality
<BJKlein> the "alarm" is on permanent ON and we are in the discussion of "old eggs" and risk scenarios
<Bryan1> Bruce, you are sounding brusied
<Bryan1> bruised
<BJKlein>
in more ways that you know.... hhaa...
<BJKlein> than
<woccam> There's the "old sperm" problem, too, for people like Rupert Murdoch and me. But Murdoch doesn't seem to care.
<BJKlein> Bryan: in your research on biotech and writing your books --what has had the most impact on your daily life?
<ag24> Bruce s not alone - most people who understand that death is bad have loved one swho are ambivalent
<Bryan1> Scope of my interests. I find I can only relate to science as a cultural phenomeon so I have to read around ideas - liek imortality
<Bryan1> I find scientists are bad as reogncsing the history or philosophy behind their ideas
<Bryan1> I can't say my actually lkiving has been affecte d0- well I doi take a soluble aspirin a day so thjat may have some significance
<Bryan1> Murdoch's probably right, Woccaml, old spemr is not necessarily dangerous
<Bryan1> aNYWAY, HE POAYS MY BILLS SO HE'S ALWAYS RIGHT
<BJKlein> do you find that scientists can grasp the big picture? i.e., they are consumed in their own research can they put the pieces together and see where is all leads?
<Bryan1> Usually no. Some of the most narrow minded people I havde met are scientists. I wouldn't tell James Watson what time it was
<Bryan1> Also, however, some of the most broad minded
<BJKlein> heh
<Bryan1> Watson is a pig and there a few like him in Britain. Aubrey is a grand exception
<Jonesey> yes, ag24 is delightful
<Bryan1> I was once introduced to the Professor of Chemistry at oxford and he just said: I despise you. Very broad minded
<ag24> "few" ... "exception" ... I ask no more :-)
<BJKlein> is that why physical immortality is a slow concept in society? b/c we tend to look only at our individual work... do we need more high profile folks connecting the dots?
<Bryan1> High Five Aubrey
<Bryan1> Yes and we need more people preared to take risks with the big picture. It's a very important development in society that knowledge has become so specialised
<Bryan1> I am trying to take big risks with big pictures
<Bryan1> I now realisew it's what I do
<BJKlein> we thank you for it!
<ag24> "few" ... "exception" ... I ask no more :-)
<Bryan1> The trick with immortality is to make people stop and think about how it would actually feel., The science is in the air but what does it mean
<ag24> sorry - failed attempt to pase a URL
<BJKlein> how else can we show this idea to the general public? ImmInst is working on a film documentary and conference... what other suggestions do you have?
<Bryan1> I don't think you will overcome interesyt proble until there ia a startling development., Aubrey has spoken eloquently about this
<ag24>
http://www.theonion....ssue=4130&nib=2<BJKlein> You are correct -- "feelings" tend to capture audiences faster than logic or science...
<Bryan1> But there ia a slighyt momentum. I wrote a big piece for The Sunday Toimes because the editor just haeard a fragment of a radio show about this - that changes things
<ag24> success - bryan - the above will amuse
<BJKlein> Yes. More folks like you and Aubrey!
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<Bryan1> Just getting it. I love The Onion
<Bryan1> Chocolate pudding?
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<Guest> hi
<ag24>
http://www.theonion....ssue=4130&nib=5<Guest> what's up everyone
<Bryan1> Hi, Guest
<Guest> hi..
<BJKlein> I is also wonderfyl to see all the Imminst members discussing these topics online and in their communities. All transhumanist/ immortalist members they are the ones changing this landscape!
<ag24> sorry - see correct URL (ast character 5 not 3
<Guest> that's true
<BJKlein> Bryan: easy question --What are your current passions and interests?
<Guest> is everyone here signed up with a cryonics organization?
<Bryan1> Brilliant, Aubrey.
<Jonesey> i am, Guest
<Guest> cool... me2
<Bryan1> Which one?
<Guest> CI
<Guest> how about u?
<Bryan1> Not me
<BJKlein> yes, my father also, still working on Susan
<Jonesey> same here Guest
<Guest> that's cool
<ag24> Bryan - why not?
<Guest> hey, I have a question
<Bryan1> Never even thought baout it until I starte don this book.
<Bryan1> But now.......
<Guest> is anyone here knowledeable on the best way to preserve someone?
<Bryan1> well I'm not sure
<ag24> plety of us
<Guest> not sure Bryan?
<Guest> is a financial thing - if you don't mind me asking
<BJKlein> Bryan: Can you join us at the ImmInst Conference in Atlanta Nov 5?
<Bryan1> For two reaons: 1)Not sure of credibility - why should people in the future bother to bring us back? 2)Not persuaded thta I want to be brought back
<Guest> that's a good question Bryan..
<ag24> the usual then :-)
<Bryan1> Bruce, desperate to. One problem has meerged. I am doing jury service for the previous two weeks. i have evaded this so long, missing this one would land me in jail. However, it should be okay by then
<Guest> I am one of those individuals who believe that it will probably take about 300 to 500 years before it will become a reality..
<Bryan1> But let's say yes,m Bruce
<Bryan1> Aubrey, was that weary cynicism?
<BJKlein> Great! I'll make sure to touch base with you on this ...http://www.imminst.org/conference/
<ag24> Guest - I pay $50/month life insurance. can you afford that? I'm 42 - if you're younger, it's even cheaper
<ag24> Bryan - well spotted :-) - but I can do better:
<Bryan1> Must work on my emoticons
<Guest> I think that even when the technology becomes a reality the funds will need to be there as well to make it happen.
<BJKlein> Bryan: thank you for joining us tonight! We look forward to reading your new book. Please let us know when it's ready.
<ag24> Credibility: I like Merkle's aphorism that the controls aren't doingvery well
<Bryan1> I will. Thans for a gripping chat. Aubrey, I willbe in touch., Tomorrow I hope. I
<Guest> take care bryan
<ag24> 1a) why would they want to bring us back - this is a POSITIVVe (anthropic principle logic
<BJKlein> Official Chat ends now. Thank you all for joing us tonight and thanks to Byran Appleyard once again and our members for your participation.
<Guest> thank you
<BJKlein> Everyone please stay on the chat if you like ...
<Guest> has anyone here had tyheir pet cryo-preserved?
<BJKlein> Well --Susan's back from a trip so i must greet her
i'll convery all yoru messages tonight regarding children :o) thanks everyone!
<woccam1> Bye
