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Human Life Extension vs. Self-Loathing


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#1 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:00 AM


I say as a retired psychologist that one of the major areas of resistence that the SENS approach faces is that of self-loathing.

Aubrey de Grey‘s proposals compel people, high and low, to confront how they really feel about their own lives and about humanity in general. Those who object most vociferously to the idea of an extended, healthy human lifespan are those who have come to despise their own lives (living in incessant physical and emotional pain as they do), see this same phenomenon in so many others, and conclude that it must be best for all of us to just die. They concoct various rationales for why death is the best thing to happen to us, each one based in the fundamental idea that we are all contemptible children of a lesser god who deserve the misery of slow illness and death for something “we“ did wrong a long time ago.

Any objection to an extended human lifespan is self-hatred, pure and simple.

#2 Live Forever

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:13 AM

That is an interesting perspective that I had not considered very much.

Thank you, and welcome mito!

#3 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:19 AM

That is an interesting perspective that I had not considered very much.

Thank you, and welcome mito!


Thank YOU, and what do you consider about this perspective?

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#4 DJS

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:47 AM

I agree, but would add that self-loathing is but one means by which an individual can devalue their "self-worth".

Occasionally there is also an apathetic attitude that coincides with devaluations. This is in contrast to instances where value is derived through alternative means. Usually what is witnesses then is a vehement oppositional attitude.

#5 RighteousReason

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:57 AM

I don't know about loathing and hatred... probably more like meek delusion...

#6 stephen

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:21 AM

Interesting thought.

I think it's good to explore the differences between the way suicide is perceived vs. the way "natural" death is perceived. If people advocate "natural death" over extreme longevity, isn't that pretty much the same as advocating suicide? From our perspective, it is exactly the same. And most suicides are due to feelings of hopelessness and a degree of self loathing (although, I'm completey uninformed on the subject). Anyone else out there know differently?

So, what is it that makes natural death different in the eyes of public? Primarily, it's tradition ("it was their time to go"). It's also viewed as a release from physical suffering. Self-loathing falls lower on the list. Given the option of "eternal youth", I think that just leaves us with one main difference (and one central cause of that knee-jerk rejection of longevity): tradition.

Tradition is a powerful force.

#7 kevin

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:58 AM

Another potential aspect is, if people were relieved of the assurance that someday they will die involuntarily, they would have to actually think about the deliberate self-removal that would be required to accomplish the same end.. escape as some see it. This truly would require them to think about suicide rather than just some 'other' unavoidable method of death, so advocating an involuntary suicide over a voluntary one may subconsciously have a greater appeal.

Having decisions made for one is preferable to taking responsibility for many.

#8 Brainbox

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 08:37 AM

Aubrey de Grey‘s proposals compel people, high and low, to confront how they really feel about their own lives and about humanity in general. Those who object most vociferously to the idea of an extended, healthy human lifespan are those who have come to despise their own lives (living in incessant physical and emotional pain as they do), see this same phenomenon in so many others, and conclude that it must be best for all of us to just die.

This indeed is a dark force. Being in a religious mode of thinking right now, (how could that have happened.. ;) ), there seems to be a very big contradiction in goal and effect of religion.

The goal of religion has been to relieve people from the irrationalities and burden of life. A lot of ingredients of the religious concept point in that direction. However, by having this approach, the existence of irrationalities and burden becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

It’s all about healthy balances in thinking and recognising and eliminating unhealthy dogma’s.

Coming to speak of it, does anyone have an example of a healthy hygienic dogma?

#9 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 01:57 PM

I agree, but would add that self-loathing is but one means by which an individual can devalue their "self-worth".

Occasionally there is also an apathetic attitude that coincides with devaluations.  This is in contrast to instances where value is derived through alternative means.  Usually what is witnesses then is a vehement oppositional attitude.


Okay, that’s interesting. Sweet, comforting apathy, then, is another factor that SENS forces us to confront. Suddenly life, our own and others’, appears to matter so much more.

I’d tend to think that apathy arises from a basis of self-loathing, but there’s no definite reason to think that it couldn’t be the other way around.

No matter, we have to start viewing life as potentially indefinite in length. It’s a daunting prospect in comparison to what we have now.

#10 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 02:06 PM

I don't know about loathing and hatred... probably more like meek delusion...


Would you expand on that thought about “meek delusion“? It sounds to me like the comfort one “gains” from, perhaps, a religious faith that arises out of an ultimate hopelessness, but I’m not sure.

I apologize if I sound like any typical psychotherapist pulling ever-so-gently for more information, but I think I’d do the same regardless of my former profession.

#11 RighteousReason

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 02:12 PM

Would you expand on that thought about “meek delusion“?


This is all so *blatantly obvious* I don't know why we are all wasting our time in this thread.

#12 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 03:03 PM

Interesting thought.


Thanks. I relish talking about this kind of stuff, but it seems easier to get closer to the heart of certain matters over the internet than face-to-face; the topic of “What, exactly, constitutes ‘suicide’“ being one of these matters.

I think it's good to explore the differences between the way suicide is perceived vs. the way "natural" death is perceived. If people advocate "natural death" over extreme longevity]exactly[/b] the same.  And most suicides are due to feelings of hopelessness and a degree of self loathing (although, I'm completey uninformed on the subject).  Anyone else out there know differently?


I agree with you that resistence to the idea of massive, and relatively rapid human life extension is, in effect, an advocacy of suicide and, again, reflective of a fundamental self-loathing.

Nevertheless, I would assert that we have been engaging in efforts toward human life extension from the point that we became so aware that one day we would die. As a cumulative result of those efforts, we now live abut 3-4 times longer than we did when we first huddled around a fire. But that progressed slowly and over a relatrively long period of time. I think it is also the prospect of such a massive increase in human life span, and with such relative suddenness, that invokes so much objection to the idea. Just about everyone fantasizes about living “forever,” but the actual prospect is really quite daunting within the context of what we now consider inevitable.

So, what is it that makes natural death different in the eyes of public?  Primarily, it's tradition ("it was their time to go").  It's also viewed as a release from physical suffering.  Self-loathing falls lower on the list.  Given the option of "eternal youth", I think that just leaves us with one main difference (and one central cause of that knee-jerk rejection of longevity): tradition.

Tradition is a powerful force.


Okay, tradition, another artificial comfort developed and held as defensively as a 4-year-old insists that “Teddy is real and he can talk!” You don’t tell that kid that it ain’t so unless you’re ready to deal with a major meltdown. Not THE most apt comparison, I know, but I just wanted to use it.

So,we’re talking then of a tradition that "The years of our lives number seventy, and if we are strong, eighty, but the honor [we attain in our short lives] is wearisome and futile, [for the end] cuts us off swiftly and [everything we have done] flies away". (Psalms 90:10), and probably not an inaccurate estimate for the time it was written. Then we also have the more current “tradition“ mouthed by certain scientists that, “It’s 120 years, max. That’s what you get. We can try to make the last decades more liveable, but once you hit that slippery slope you’re only going to keep slipping, slow or fast, but slipping down all the time. Just accept that.”

Tradition, I think, is interchangeable with habit. We get into the habit of believing a certain thing about a certain obnoxious aspect of our existence, and rationalize those beliefs as part of our mature acceptance of “reality.” And those are powerful habits.

#13 reason

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 05:23 PM

Some thoughts on the topic I posted last month:

http://www.fightagin...ives/000861.php

#14 mito

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 06:36 PM

Some thoughts on the topic I posted last month:

http://www.fightagin...ives/000861.php


Quote: “I don't think self-loathing or a distaste for aspects of life has to be particularly archaic or Jungian to provide the basis for opposition to healthy life extension. Plain old misanthropy or the lessons learned from a catalogue of unfortunate experiences probably serves just as well for some.“

I agree. The experiences of a single lifetime can be more than enough to result in some degree of misanthropy, both toward others and toward oneself. However, we’ve been having these kinds of experiences for many millenia, now, and it is those from way back that form the foundation of various religious systems based in despising ourselves. If we can give ourselves more time...

And thanks for addressing in more detail a post I made to sci.life-extension some time ago. Didn’t get much interest, there. Yep, that’s definitely my post.




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