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The age old scientific debate


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#1 JMorgan

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 09:35 PM


Let me start by saying I was raised to believe in creation and I've always been skeptical of the theories of evolution, not really finding satisfying anwers to many of my questions with EITHER theory. The fossil records are incomplete at best, geological evidence is questionable, and carbon dating is flawed.

However, more recently I began to accept the possibility that I could be wrong. I also began reading Michael West's book "The Immortal Cell" and was intrigued to see that he was once a creationist.

Also, to my surprise, I found there are actually some scientists who believe in the theory of a young earth and have sound theories as to how it could be only thousands of years old, rather than billions. Check out the website Answers in Genesis and tell me what you think.

Particularly, check out their articles on Evidence for a Young Earth.

Are their theories sound? Do they make sense? Or are they making up all this stuff?

I'm not a physicist or an astronomer like Lazarus Long :) so it's difficult for me to sort out fact from fiction. What do you think?

#2 Lazarus Long

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Posted 31 March 2005 - 09:57 PM

I just got done quick scanning a few of their arguments and find nothing particularly informed or *strong*. Would you care to point to any that you consider to be powerful arguments malchiah?

In fact the arguments made here on the Young Earth with respect to Continental erosion are not even rational or consistent with the enormous amount of data at our disposal.

http://www.answersin...3/i1/howold.asp

The same with the false claim that leads off the section on the Ice Age.
http://www.answersin.../faq/iceage.asp

Was There an Ice Age?
http://www.answersin...ok/iceage16.asp
The only clear evidence we have is for one Ice Age.  We still see its remnants in such things as glaciers and the U-shaped valleys they carved.  This ice age is said by evolutionists to have started about two million years ago and ended about 11,000 years ago.  It was punctuated by relatively warm interglacial periods, which lasted about 10% of the time.  Most creationists, on the other hand, believe the Ice Age began soon after the Flood and continued for less than a thousand years.  Indeed, as we shall see later, the biblical Flood provides a good basis for understanding how the one Ice Age developed.  However, evolutionists have great difficulty accounting for any ice age.1  In their understanding there would have been multiple ice ages, every 20–30 million years or so.

Earlier ice ages?
Using their principle that ‘the present is the key to the past’2 evolutionists claim that there is evidence for earlier ice ages.  However, supposed similarities between the rocks in those geological systems and the special features produced in the Ice Age are not consistent.3–5


For example do you credit the claims on the Comets?

http://www.answersin...6/i2/comets.asp
Evolutionary astronomers, who assume the solar system is billions of years old, must propose a ‘source’ that will supply new comets as old ones are destroyed. The Kuiper Belt2 is one such proposed source for short-period comets (comets that take less than 200 years to orbit the sun). The Kuiper belt is a hypothetical massive flattened disc of billions of icy planetesimals supposedly left over from the formation of the solar system. (The other proposed source is the Oort Cloud,3 which we have already addressed—see More problems for the Oort cloud.)


Why is there a need to produce some *new source* when the Oort cloud represents a mass of particulate dust ice and the whole point of short period comets, is that they are deteriorating at a rate faster than long duration but their long elliptical orbits are also likely the result of erratic intersections with other larger bodies that have disturbed their previously more circular orbits?

I don't see much of this site presenting any particularly strong arguments. Could you please focus us in on some that you consider more worthy of more attention?

And BTW I am not a physicist or astronomer just because I have a telescope and avid life long interests.

I can apply physics as an itinerant carpenter but that doesn't make me King of the Jews either :))

#3

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 01:17 AM

malchiah, instead of we dictating what your position should be, I suggest you do some reading on both sides and come to your own tentative conclusion.

With that said, I think the most plausible form of creationism is evolutionary creationism. A deistic view that God may have initiated the universe, and perhaps initiated life (our gap of knowledge allows for this possibility), but that natural evolution took over after that. This is not my position though, I don't have a deistic belief in God, or a belief in God at all, I am agnostic and as of yet I haven't seen convincing evidence supporting or requiring the existence of god. Evolution is well supported, in my opinion, and remains the most convincing theory of all hypotheses, presented up to this point with the evidence available, about our origins.

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#4 DJS

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 03:09 PM

Oh boy, what fun this is going to be!

I was not aware that you had Creationist leanings Malchiah, but now that I do I am truly fascinated. This promises to be a very instructive interaction.

(PS -- Don't worry, unlike on many other predominately secular posting boards you will not be crucified upside down and beaten with reeds. :)) [lol] )

#5 Infernity

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 03:51 PM

(Joel)
I also began reading Michael West's book "The Immortal Cell" and was intrigued to see that he was once a creationist.

Well Ecclesiastes was a pretty smart guy who was familiar with the vanity in temporary life and the only reason he wasn't an immortalist was that he lived in times which people didn't even dream of what's actual technology heh.
The thing is, he was also a creationist I suppose, since he simply believed in God; in these days people did not even think about the possibility that there is no such thing.

Koheleth: The Immortalist of the Holy Bible by Daniel Stein

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

#6 JMorgan

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 05:03 PM

One of the reasons I chose to put this in Physics & Space is because I want to keep the discussion more scientific than religious. So far so good.

Sorry Lazarus, I didn't see anything in particular I thought was really powerful. It's just A LOT of data in various different categories that made me wonder. Some things sound reasonable and I was hoping others could validate whether or not their claims are true, since some of them are fairly technical. So far you've done that with the comets and erosion arguments. (Though their comet argument still seems possible.)

Anyway, the only real issues regarding our origins that puzzle me with evolution and creation relate to the universe itself, the big bang, the stars, etc. So much in astronomy is based on the notion that the universe has been around for billions of years.

Here's one more page to check out. Again, it's not specific, but has a number of general arguments which are expanded elsewhere on the site.

#7 Lazarus Long

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 05:44 PM

Alright Malchiah I looked again as you asked and respectfully I must say these are not interested in any contrary evidence as the arguments for a young Earth just ignore data that are contradictory to their preconceived notions.

Example #1

1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast
The Earth is Not Millions of Years Old
Evidence For a Young World
Dr. D Russel Humphreys

A dozen natural phenomena which conflict with the evolutionary idea that the universe is billions of years old. This booklet makes a great witnessing tool.

The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape.1

Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old. Evolutionists call this ‘the winding-up dilemma’, which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. The same ‘winding-up’ dilemma also applies to other galaxies.

For the last few decades the favored attempt to resolve the dilemma has been a complex theory called ‘density waves’.1 The theory has conceptual problems, has to be arbitrarily and very finely tuned, and lately has been called into serious question by the Hubble Space Telescope’s discovery of very detailed spiral structure in the central hub of the ‘Whirlpool’ galaxy, M51.2


A. It has not been called into any question by Hubble data by any scientist that bases their interpretations on mathematical models. Calling into question elements of a theory does not disqualify a theory.

and

B. It ignores the physics of Black Holes entirely that are assumed to be the central gravitational element dominating galactic dynamics.

Black Hole theory now s considering classifying them into at least three distinct sub-groupings with Galactic Cores being of the kind called Super Black Holes.

The issues surrounding M51 are all about this developing astrophysics and the visual and now Chandra X-Ray detection data tend to support the more *conventional* physics and certainly not one of a shorter aged Universe.

I will skip Item #2 "Comets disintegrate too quickly" because I have already addressed some of it but also they are ignoring the potential accumulation that comets could theoretically accrue in their long period passage through the Oort Cloud analogous to how hail is formed in the upper reaches of a Cumulonimbus Cloud.

Anyway we are there are satellites en route to answer some of the real questions involved and perhaps we will have better data with which to draw conclusions soon.

BTW one problem I have with all of this is how the writers are quite obviously not interested in *not drawing a conclusion* until they have more data but are overtly too willing to make a leap of faith to fill in the void of missing data.

#3 Is nonsense and doesn't understand the whole idea of Continental drift, subsidence, submersion and emergence. Why are sea fossil from former sea bottom now in the middle of desserts?

#4 Is an arcane argument that ignores depends on various paleoclimate models and also soil chemistry and issues of rain fall, Ice Ages and run off rates.

Before taking on all of these loosely draw arguments individually I am going to switch approaches.


#5, #8
Really bad presumptions of physics and ignorance of tectonic evidence and principles

#6, #7 #9 #10, #11 #12 are very bad conclusions tenuously drawn from inconsistent applying and ignoring data as well as making false associations based on pre-drawn biased conclusions they are trying to prove are true rather than test for truth.

The last three are significantly spurious arguments all established to favor bias not serious analysis from the perspective of archeology. It treats as arguments idea like the rarity of skeletons as a powerful one when aside from th intentional destruction of ancient bones to meet mystical demand in pseudo medical superstitious medical remedy also ignores the fact that most conditions don't produce fossilized remains and also that animals and people ate the dead, scattering the bones when not engaging in ritual cremation.

Please take no offense but IMHO these arguments are specious and so blatantly biased as to be considered corrupt but exemplary of Seductive Reasoning designed to attract individuals with a predisposition to *believe* them.

I define Seductive Reasoning as an alternative Paradigm of logic when argument is designed to *convince* instead of *prove.*

This is especially obvious when considering the memetics of faith based systems that are structured around commonly shared *beliefs* rather than the more objectively (and stringently applied) based Scientific Method that builds upon a model of self correcting data/models intentionally subject to repeated periodic challenges to re-establish *credibility* for the degree of trust placed in it as *knowledge*.

#8 DJS

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 10:17 PM

#3 Why are sea fossil from former sea bottom now in the middle of desserts?


The great flood of course! [lol]

#9 jaydfox

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Posted 01 April 2005 - 10:24 PM

This is especially obvious when considering the memetics of faith based systems that are structured around commonly shared *beliefs* rather than the more objectively (and stringently applied) based Scientific Method that builds upon a model of self correcting data/models intentionally subject to repeated periodic challenges to re-establish *credibility* for the degree of trust placed in it as *knowledge*.

While we're on the subject, this is an enlightening paragraph to consider when viewing the claims of Alex Chiu and his supporters. Sorry, off-topic, please continue...

#10 DJS

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 07:50 AM

Heh, I was going to start rolling out instances where evolutionary theory has proven to be excellent in explaining observed biological phenomenon, but then I realized that you could just go over to talk origins and they would address your questions much more thoroughly than I ever could. :)

...not really finding satisfying anwers to many of my questions with EITHER theory.


Could you please elaborate on some of the specific incidents. When you write "satisfying answers", are you refering to evolution's ability to explain available data, or its ability to answer the "deeper" questions in life?

(1)The fossil records are incomplete at best, (2)geological evidence is questionable, and (3) carbon dating is flawed.


eh, I have to call you to task on this statement Joel.

1) The fossil record fits into an evolutionary frame work.

2) Some geological evidence may be ambigious, but in order for you to make a blanket statement such as you've made, you need to prove that there is a *universal flaw* in the methodology of geologists world wide.

3) Carbon dating is an extremely accurate method for dating artifact up to 50,000 ybp

Now granted, all I've done is throw out position statements. I think this is in large part because I am puzzled as to exactly what you are looking to get out of this conversation.

I mean, are there any particular areas of evolutionary theory that you find particularly deficient? I pride myself on being rational, and trust me Joel, I'd be the first one to stand up and say the emperor has no cloths...

Please, give me some specific areas of contention so I'm not just shooting in the dark.

Sincerely

DonS

Edited by DonSpanton, 04 April 2005 - 01:46 PM.


#11 Lazarus Long

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 04:18 PM

While I am tempted to cross link this discussion to the one that was just opened on *Truth* I came across this link to the *Great Debate* between Pinker and Dawkins on:

Is Science Killing the Soul
http://www.edge.org/...ive/edge53.html

That is so close to a paper I am constructing and separate forum discussion I am engaging in the web, even as we speak here on Soul v Mind, that I am going to jump the gun and share it.

#12 knite

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 01:39 PM

well, i personally share the deistic view, but even full on christianity need not exclusify the two, if first they realize that the bible was written by humans, and even if ordained by God, the bible cannot be complete truth, because of several factors
A) it has been translated too many times, there is no friggin way it doesnt have many errors just from that.
B) if a human wrote what God showed him exactly as it was, then it means the human understood everything he was seeing, which means he would have to have known what God knew.

i personally believe in God and creationism, but also evolution.
after learning so much about the universe, my belief in a God was only strengthened, as i cannot see how such an organized, lawful universe could come about by pure random chance.

#13 DJS

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 02:38 PM

Thank you for that excellent link Laz. [thumb] I didn't have time to read it until now, but some of the thoughts expressed run in parallel with thoughts I have been having as of late (particularly Pinker).

#14 Infernity

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Posted 11 April 2005 - 09:13 PM

Knite, can I ask you something? Why do you think you believe in god and what made you a believer?

Yours
~Infernity




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