• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans


Adverts help to support the work of this non-profit organisation. To go ad-free join as a Member.


Photo
- - - - -

Do,,, or Die...The War on Immortality


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#1 thefirstimmortal

  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:40 PM


In the Threats to Immortality section, government is listed as one of the greatest threats. Well here it is folks, up close, in your face and personal. The government is seeking control of Alcor, so what are we going tto do about it?

If Imm wants to be considered relevant in the field of Immortality, now is the time to show what we got/ or that we are not.

We have 3 working days to make a difference, let's get to it.

#2 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 22 February 2004 - 05:26 PM

According to the Alcor legislative alert

"Although fifty legislators signed on as co-sponsors, we are finding as we contact them one by one that the support for this legislation may be a mile wide, but it is only an inch deep. Most of the co-sponsors with whom we've spoken are saying that they did it as a favor to the sponsor, Representative Stump, and would likely vote against it in its current form in committee or on the floor."

If that's the case, it won't take that many phone calls to scare some of them off, state issues like this seldom generate public involvment, so each politician who get's 15 or 20 calls over the next few days would seriously second guess his stand on the issue.
Alcor states
"We need your help to ensure this likelihood becomes reality."

The help Alcor seeks is in making calls and generating e-mails.

Do we have the resourses to make a diffeerence??? We should, let's take inventory.
We have
Members: 1249

Full Members: 62

and leadership

Leadership.
Klein, Bruce J.
Anissimov, Michael
Fonseca-Klein, Susan
Perrott, Kevin
Reason
Sethe, Sabastian
Sills, Kenneth X.
Omnido
Passaro, Peter
Wicker, Randolfe
Bates, Ryan
Loew, Justin
O'Rights, William C
Tompkins, Casey

Let's start with leadership. Assets 14 leaders, of which we can excuse Caliban from making calls due to the fact he lives in England.

There are 12 listed committe members, that's 13 people making 12 calls, if we are 100% behind this, that's 156 calls. Who's with me?

#3 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 22 February 2004 - 05:37 PM

Do we have the resourses to make a diffeerence??? We should, let's take inventory.

Full Members 62 minus leadership leaves 48 remaining members. If half, HALF, get involved that's 24 additional callers. That's 288 calls together with 156 makes 444 calls.

We have 1249 "Members" If only one% join in the effort, that's 12, in fact that's too optimistic, let's say 6 regular members join, that's another 72 calls.

516 calls, That's more than enough to make a mojor impact. So are we a group that just comes here to chat about things, or are we really about doing something about that mission statement.

Article II. -- Mission & Function

* Section 1 -- Main Mission
The mission of ImmInst is to conquer the blight of involuntary death.

Well, here's our chance to do something about it.

sponsored ad

  • Advert

#4 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 22 February 2004 - 08:37 PM

I called Randolf this morning, he is attempting to get the spotlight on this issue to the media. We all know the forms of Kryptonite to politicians... and one of them is bad press.

#5 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 22 February 2004 - 08:49 PM

Looks like a good time to put together a formalized ImmInst Legal Team.

#6 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 22 February 2004 - 08:55 PM

and one of them is bad press.


I'm putting together a press release from ImmInst now... preliminary should be ready for leadership review in less than an hr. (by 5pm 8pm Eastern)

After considering the legal question, I will instead contact the Reps. as an individual who happens to be a part of ImmInst.

#7 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,058 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:00 AM

Here is the section of the bill that is being changed to include storage of dead human bodies.

A. Only a licensed embalmer, a licensed intern, a registered embalmer's assistant, a registered apprentice embalmer or a student who assists a licensed embalmer in the embalming of dead human bodies pursuant to section 32-1337 shall embalm a dead human body OR STORE A DEAD HUMAN BODY OR REMAINS OF A DEAD HUMAN BODY FOR MORE THAN FIVE YEARS. A licensed intern, registered apprentice embalmer or student may only embalm a dead human body OR STORE A DEAD HUMAN BODY OR REMAINS OF A DEAD HUMAN BODY FOR MORE THAN FIVE YEARS ONLY under the direct supervision of a licensed embalmer.


The capitalized words are the proposed changes. This bill would seem to do one of two things. Force Alcor cryo-scientists to become licesned embalmers (makes no sense) or have state licensed embalmers oversee Alcors activitities (also makes no sense). I suppose, since Alcors does not "embalm" people then the state would be able to fine or shut down Alcor under this bill's provisions.

Strangely, this line appears in the "definitions" sections of the bill:

A. THIS ARTICLE DOES NOT APPLY TO A PERSON OR ENTITY THAT CHARGES A FEE FOR THE STORAGE OF A DEAD HUMAN BODY OR REMAINS OF A DEAD HUMAN BODY FOR MORE THAN FIVE YEARS.


Will, do you have any idea how this definition relates to the proposed law changes? It would seem to exclude Alcor; but then the law changes would seem to make little sense, unless there is an underground funeral industry in Arizona composed of unlicensed embalmers storing bodies for free for more than five years. [8)]

#8 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,058 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:07 AM

I sent an e-mail to every committee member. I also plan on calling them. I encourage everyone to do the same. Don't be afraid, every call counts.

Here are some phone numbers.

Phone numbers to contact your legislators:
Arizona House: (602) 542-4221 or 1-800-352-8404
Arizona Senate: (602) 542-3559 or 1-800-352-8404
Governor's Office: (602) 542-4331 or 1-800-253-0883
Fax numbers for your legislators:
Arizona House: (602) 542-4511
Arizona Senate: (602) 542-3429

Here is a link for a complete phone list of every representative in the Arizona legislature.

Arizona State Representative Phone Numbers

#9 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 23 February 2004 - 12:32 AM

Will, do you have any idea how this definition relates to the proposed law changes? It would seem to exclude Alcor; but then the law changes would seem to make little sense, unless there is an underground funeral industry in Arizona composed of unlicensed embalmers storing bodies for free for more than five years. [8)]


No, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I'm currently working on the second piece of Kryponite.

and thanks for e-mailing the Government [thumb]

#10 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 23 February 2004 - 04:27 AM

I'm putting together a press release from ImmInst now... preliminary should be ready for leadership review in less than an hr. (by 5pm 8pm Eastern)


One of the things I would would strongly urge you not to do is contact legislators as a leader of Imm. You can do it as an individual, but unless I'm mistaken it is a felony for a non-profit 503 © to attempt to influence legislation. If I had time to find out for 100% sure, I would, but I'm too busy getting ready to do what I just told you not to do.

#11 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 23 February 2004 - 05:32 AM

thanks will, here's the code concerning 501c3 and political support:

To be tax-exempt as an organization described in IRC Section 501©(3) of the Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for one or more of the purposes set forth in IRC Section 501©(3) and none of the earnings of the organization may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate at all in campaign activity for or against political candidates. ref



#12 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 23 February 2004 - 05:35 AM

or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation


Who, me [wis]

#13 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 23 February 2004 - 06:59 AM

The following is a bit more clear...

An IRC Section 501©(3) organization may not engage in carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities. Whether an organization has attempted to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities is determined based upon all relevant facts and circumstances. However, most IRC Section 501©(3) organizations may use Form 5768, Election/Revocation of Election by an Eligible Section 501©(3) Organization to Make Expenditures to Influence Legislation, to make an election under IRC Section 501(h) to be subject to an objectively measured expenditure test with respect to lobbying activities rather than the less precise "substantial activity" test. Electing organizations are subject to tax on lobbying activities that exceed a specified percentage of their exempt function expenditures. For further information regarding lobbying activities by charities, download Lobbying Issues.

For purposes of IRC Section 501©(3), legislative activities and political activities are two different things, and are subject to two different sets of rules. The latter is an absolute bar. An IRC Section 501©(3) organization may not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office. Whether an organization is engaging in prohibited political campaign activity depends upon all the facts and circumstances in each case. For example, organizations may sponsor debates or forums to educate voters. But if the forum or debate shows a preference for or against a certain candidate, it becomes a prohibited activity. The motivation of an organization is not relevant in determining whether the political campaign prohibition has been violated. Activities that encourage people to vote for or against a particular candidate, even on the basis of non-partisan criteria, violate the political campaign prohibition of IRC Section 501©(3). See the FY-2002 CPE topic entitled Election Year Issues for further information regarding political activities of charities.

http://www.irs.gov/c...d=96099,00.html

#14 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 23 February 2004 - 01:28 PM

Well I'll play ball in the grey areas

#15 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,058 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2004 - 07:41 PM

I would encourage members to try and influence the legislation, but not as an official policy of the "Board". Having a forum to discuss cyonics legality seems like a justified activity of Imminst. Even encouraging members to voice their opinion (for or against) should be alright. There just should not be a formal policy written or executed as an act of the leadership.

#16 Mind

  • Life Member, Director, Moderator, Treasurer
  • 19,058 posts
  • 2,000
  • Location:Wausau, WI

Posted 23 February 2004 - 07:43 PM

I did get one reply from my emails so far from Bill Arnold. I am unclear about his response...I think it is positive (in Alcors favor)

Mind wrote:

Dear Representative Arnold:

What is going on with the Stump bill regarding regulation of cryonics facilities? Why wasn't the public notified through the normal "sunrise process"?

Whether you think cryonics is a bunch of bull or not, the people who were frozen are having their, hopes, dreams, and futures taken away if cryonics facilities come under the regulatory power of the funueral industry. The last wish of the cryo-preserved people was to be frozen and stay that way until it is possible to be revived. To allow the funeral industry to regulate, inspect and thaw these people would be an unspeakable horror.

I am not sure what vested interest the state of Arizona has in "bothering" cryonics facilities. The cryonics facilities are not harming or bothering anyone. They are breaking no laws.

Please vote against the Stump bill. It is the compassionate thing to do.

Sincerely, Justin Loew


Bill Arnold writes

I can't support Rep. Stump's Bill.
Thank you for your E-mail.
Bill



#17 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 23 February 2004 - 11:33 PM

I sent a bunch emails with Minds basic message to the reps is there anything else I should do as a follow up?

#18 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 24 February 2004 - 12:36 AM

thanks devon, i would suggest sending an email describing yourself and affiliations.. you may say that you are a full member of imminst, yet you speak as an individual.

#19 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 24 February 2004 - 01:21 AM

good idea but I already sent them but I guess I can still send a side note do you think that will help? It may be a good idea to note who is in favor of the bill and who opposes it does anyone have any insite on this?

#20 bacopa

  • Validating/Suspended
  • 2,223 posts
  • 159
  • Location:Boston

Posted 24 February 2004 - 01:55 AM

Bob Stump emailed me implying that it's silly to email every rep because many of them may be for the bill I wonder if he was lying or stretching the truth to get me to stop!

#21 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:15 AM

Bob Stump emailed me implying that it's silly to email every rep because many of them may be for the bill I wonder if he was lying or stretching the truth to get me to stop!


Could you post that here??

That pisses me off, of course some may be for it, some against, how are you to know without writing? What he's really saying is that he doesn't want to see dissent. No more Mr. Nice guy, I'm taking the gloves off, it's going to get real personal, real fast....

#22 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:22 AM

Question, Is HB 2637 neutral, and...

...what is the "grave and immediate danger" which the State seeks to protect.

From Alcor's Letter:
"Regulation requires: the demonstration of public need; protection of the public from health and safety hazards... None of these criteria have been suggested to exist,..."


The test of legislation which collides with the Fourteenth Amendment, because it also collides with the principles of the First, is much more definite than the test when only the Fourteenth is involved. Much of the vagueness of the due process clause disappears when the specific prohibitions of the First become its standard. The right of a State to regulate, for example, a public utility may well include, so far as the due process test is concerned, power to impose all of the restrictions which a legislature may have a 'rational basis' for adopting. But freedoms of speech and of press, of assembly, and of worship may not be infringed on such slender grounds. They are susceptible of restriction only to prevent grave and immediate danger to interests which the state may lawfully protect. See Zablocki v. Redhail, 434 U.S. 374, 388 (1978), if a requirement imposed by a State "significantly interferes with the exercise of a fundamental right, it cannot be upheld unless it is supported by sufficiently important state interests and is closely tailored to effectuate only those interests." The Constitution imposes... the obligation to "examine carefully . . . the extent to which [the legitimate government interests advanced] are served by the challenged regulation." Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 499 (1977). See also Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678, 690 (1977) (invalidating a requirement that bore "no relation to the State's interest"). An evidentiary rule, just as a substantive prohibition, must meet these standards if it significantly burdens a fundamental liberty interest. Fundamental [497 U.S. 261, 304] rights "are protected not only against heavy-handed frontal attack, but also from being stifled by more subtle governmental interference." Bates v. Little Rock, 361 U.S. 516, 523 (1960). Also see Freedman v. Maryland, 380 U.S. 51; Garrison v. Louisiana, 379 U.S. 64; Speiser v. Randall, 357 U.S. 513. "...inhibition as well as prohibition against the exercise of precious First Amendment rights is a power denied to government."

The free exercise inquiry asks whether government has placed a substantial burden on the observation of a central religious belief or practice and, if so, whether a compelling governmental interest justifies the burden. Hobbie v. Unemployment Appeals Comm'n of Fla., 480 U.S. 136, 141 -142 (1987); Thomas v. Review Bd. of Indiana Employment Security Div., 450 U.S., at 717 -719; Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 220 -221 (1972). It is not within the judicial keen to question the centrality of particular beliefs or practices to a faith, or the validity of particular litigants' interpretations of those creeds see, PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH v. HULL CHURCH, 393 U.S. 440 "In this country the full and free right to entertain any religious belief, to practice any religious principle..."[At a minimum, the protections of the Free Exercise Clause pertain if the law at issue discriminates against some or all religious beliefs or regulates or prohibits conduct because it is undertaken for religious reasons.] See, e.g., Braunfeld v. Brown, 366 U.S. 599, 607 (1961) (plurality opinion); Fowler v. Rhode Island, 345 U.S. 67, 69 -70 (1953). Indeed, it was ["historical instances of religious persecution and intolerance that gave concern to those who drafted the Free Exercise Clause."] Bowen v. Roy, 476 U.S. 693, 703 (1986) (opinion of Burger, C.J.). See J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States 991-992 (abridged ed. 1833) (reprint 1987); T. Cooley, Constitutional Limitations 467 (1868) (reprint 1972); McGowan v. Maryland, 366 U.S. 420, 464 , and n. 2 (1961) (opinion of Frankfurter, J.); Douglas v. Jeannette, 319 U.S. 157, 179 (1943) (Jackson, J., concurring in result); [508 U.S. 520, 533] Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 342 (1890).

No chapter in human history has been so largely written in terms of persecution and intolerance as the one dealing with religious freedom. From ancient times to the present day, the ingenuity of man has known no limits in its ability to forge weapons of oppression for use against rights of those who dare to express or practice unorthodox religious beliefs. And the Jehovah's Witnesses are living proof of the fact that even in this nation, conceived as it was in the ideals of freedom, the right to practice religion in unconventional ways is still far from secure. Theirs is a militant and unpopular faith, pursued with a fanatical zeal. They have suffered brutal beatings; their property has been destroyed; they have been harassed at every turn by the resurrection and enforcement of little used ordinances and statutes. See Mulder and Comisky, 'Jehovah's Witnesses Mold Constitutional Law,' 2 Bill of Rights Review, No. 4, p. 262. To them, along with other present-day religious minorities, befalls the burden of testing our devotion to the ideals and constitutional guarantees of religious freedom. We should therefore hesitate before approving the application of a statute that might be used as another instrument of oppression. Religious freedom is too sacred a right to be restricted or prohibited in any degree without convincing proof that a legitimate interest of the state is in grave danger.

Although the law appears on it's face to be neutral, we reject any contention that may be advanced by Bob Stump that our inquiry must end with the text of the laws at issue. Facial neutrality is not determinative. The Free Exercise Clause, like the Establishment Clause, extends beyond facial discrimination. The Clause "forbids subtle departures from neutrality," Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437, 452 (1971), and "covert suppression of particular religious beliefs," Bowen v. Roy, supra, at 703 (opinion of Burger, C.J.). Official action that targets religious conduct for distinctive treatment cannot be shielded by mere compliance with the requirement of facial neutrality. The Free Exercise Clause protects against governmental hostility which is masked as well as overt. Arizona must survey meticulously the circumstances of governmental categories to eliminate, as it were, religious gerrymanders. See" Walz v. Tax Comm'n of New York City, 397 U.S. 664, 696 (1970) (Harlan, J., concurring).

The Supreme Court has repeatedly found that infringements of fundamental rights are not limited to outright denials of those rights. First Amendment decisions have consistently held in a wide variety of contexts that the compelling-state-interest test is applicable not only to outright denials but also to restraints that make exercise of those rights more difficult. See, e. g., Sherbert v. Verner, 374 U.S. 398 (1963) (free exercise of religion); NAACP v. Button, 371 U.S. 415 (1963) (freedom of expression and association), Linmark Associates v. Township of Willingboro, 431 U.S. 85 (1977) (freedom of expression). [432 U.S. 464, 488].

The place of religion in our society is an exalted one, achieved through a long tradition of reliance on the home, the church and the inviolable citadel of the individual heart and mind. We have come to recognize through bitter experience that it is not within the power of government to invade that citadel, whether its purpose or effect be to aid or oppose, to advance or retard. In the relationship between man and religion, the State is firmly committed to a position of neutrality. Though the application of that rule requires interpretation of a delicate sort, the rule itself is clearly and concisely stated in the words of the First Amendment. "Government in our democracy, state and national, must be neutral in matters of religious theory, doctrine, and practice. It may not be hostile to any religion or to the advocacy of no-religion; and it may not aid, foster, or promote one religion or religious theory against another or even against the militant opposite. The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality..." See Epperson v. Arkansas, 393 U.S. 97, 103 -104 (1968) (footnote omitted).

Whatever may be the wisdom, however, of an approach that would reject exceptions to the plain language of the First Amendment based upon such things as "grave and immediate danger" such is not the issue in this case.

We assume of course that Bob Stump surely would not contend that the kind of activity involved in this case, the seeking of physical immortality, falls outside the protection of the First Amendment, however narrowly Mr. Stump wishes to interpret that Amendment. So the only issue presently before us is whether religious freedom that must be well within the protection of the Amendment should be given complete protection or whether it is entitled only to such protection as is consistent in the mind of the Bob Stump with whatever interest Bob Stump may be asserting to justify its abridgment. Bob Stump, no doubt will state unequivocally that there are no "absolutes" under the First Amendment, and will necessarily take the position that even religious activity that is admittedly protected by the First Amendment is subject to a "balancing test," and that, therefore, no kind of religious activity is to be protected if the Government can assert an interest of sufficient weight to uphold its abridgment. Such a sweeping denial of the existence of any inalienable right to practice one's religion undermines the very foundation upon which the First Amendment, the Bill of Rights, and, indeed, our entire structure of government rest. The Founders of this Nation attempted to set up a limited government which left certain rights in the people, rights that could not be taken away without amendment of the basic charter of government. If HB 2637 is allowed to stand, it will tell us that no religious right exists in the people that cannot be taken away if the Government finds it sufficiently imperative or expedient to do so. That would turns our "Government of the people, by the people and for the people" into a government over the people.

Arizona should find that no State's interest which is here should be "balanced" against the interest in protecting our religious freedoms. Important constitutional rights need not be "balanced" away. This, of course, is an ever-present danger of the "balancing test" for the application of such a test are necessarily tied to the emphasis particular legislators give to competing societal values. Legislators, like everyone else, vary tremendously in their choice of values. This is perfectly natural and, indeed, unavoidable. But it is neither natural nor unavoidable in this country for the fundamental rights of the people to be dependent upon the different emphasis different legislators put upon different values at different times. For those rights, particularly the First Amendment rights involved here, were unequivocally set out by the Founders in our Bill of Rights in the very plainest of language, and they should not be diluted by "tests" that obliterate them whenever particular law makers think values they most highly cherish outweigh the values most highly cherished by the Founders.

We believe that the First Amendment's unequivocal command that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, " shows that the men who drafted our Bill of Rights did all the 'balancing' that was to be done in this field.

Live Long and Well
Rev. William C. O'Rights PhD
Founder and President
Universal Live Extension Church, Inc.

#23 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:38 AM

Hmm, odd, 21 members, almost all guests on here right now. That's a very abnormal thing. I wonder who all these guests are?

#24 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:40 AM

...and every single one of them " Viewing Board Index". What is the board index?

#25 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:59 AM

http://www.imminst.org/forum = forum index

..

Devon could you post Stump's reply here?

#26 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:39 AM

3rd response


Arizona Funeral Board Director Rudy Thomas has been quoted as saying, “There’s no difference between cryonics and cremation,” (Arizona Capitol Times, 23 Sept 2003) and “These companies need to be regulated or deregulated out of business” (New York Times, 14 Oct 2003).

...a state statute or program might involve the state impermissibly in monitoring and overseeing religious affairs. MARSH v. CHAMBERS, 463 U.S. 783 (1983).

The record in this case compels the conclusion that suppression of the central element of the Universal Life Extension Church religious activity (cryonic suspension) is the object of the HB 2637. These comments compel a finding of improper targeting of the Universal Life Extensions religion, the choice of these words is support for our conclusion. No one suggests, and, on this record, it cannot be maintained, that the Arizona Funeral Board had in mind a religious activity other than cyonic suspension.

The comments we have recited discloses animosity to Universal Life Extension adherents and their religious practices, HB 2637, by it's own terms, targets this religious exercise and the text of HB 2637 has been gerrymandered with care to inhibit religious cryonic suspension. HB 2637 suppress much more religious conduct than is necessary in order to achieve any legitimate State interest. HB 2637 is not neutral. [A law burdening religious practice that is not neutral must undergo the most rigorous of scrutiny.] To satisfy the commands of the First Amendment, a law restrictive of religious practice must advance "`interests of the highest order,'" and must be narrowly tailored in pursuit of those interests. McDaniel v. Paty, 435 U.S., at 628 , quoting Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205, 215 (1972).

The Free Exercise Clause commits government itself to religious tolerance, and upon even slight suspicion that proposals for state intervention stem from animosity to religion or distrust of its practices, all officials must pause to remember their own high duty to the Constitution and to the rights it secures. Those in office must be resolute in resisting importunate demands and must ensure that the sole reasons for imposing the burdens of law and regulation are secular. Legislators may not devise mechanisms, overt or disguised, designed to persecute or oppress a religion or its practices. The proposed law here in question cannot be enacted contrary to these constitutional principles.

To what purpose are powers limited, and to what purpose is that limitation committed to writing, if these limits may, at any time, be passed by those intended to be restrained? The distinction, between a government with limited and unlimited powers, is abolished, if those limits do not confine the persons on whom they are imposed, and if acts prohibited and acts allowed, are of equal obligation. It is a proposition too plain to be contested, that the constitution controls any legislative act repugnant to it; or, that the legislature may alter the constitution by an ordinary act. Between these alternatives there is no middle ground. The constitution is either a superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means, or it is on a level with ordinary legislative acts, and like other acts, is alterable when the legislature shall please to alter it.

The powers of the legislature are defined, and limited, and that those limits may not be mistaken, or forgotten, the constitution is written.


Live Long and Well
Rev. William C. O'Rights PhD
Founder and President
Universal Live Extension Church, Inc.

#27 gjbloom

  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 0

Posted 24 February 2004 - 03:48 PM

Here's an email chain I exchanged with Mr. Stump yesterday (in reverse chronological order):




Date:Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:52:29 -0800 (PST)
From:"Gregory Bloom"
Subject:RE: HB 2637
To:"Bob Stump" , "Deb Gullett"
, "Philip J. Hanson"
, "Bill Konopnicki"
, "Colette Rosati"
, "Bill Arnold"
, "Mark Thompson"
, "Warde Nichols"
, "Cheryl Chase"
, "Phil Lopes"
, "David T. Bradley"
, "Linda Lopez"
, "Pete Wertheim"
, "Elizabeth Baskett"
, "Courtney Riddle"

CC:"Andy Biggs" , "Wally Straughn"



Mr. Stump:

I appreciate the time and patience with which you address my
concerns. It is an unfortunate tendency of humans to react
emotionally first and then consider only the logical
ramifications that support their feelings.

Your reassurance that HB 2637 does NOT seek to "regulate
cryonics under the same rules as the Funeral and Embalmer's
Board" is comforting, however, I hope you will understand my
skepticism since just a paragraph later you also state that
any facility that stores human remains for more than five
years comes under purview of the Funeral Board. I am unable
to reconcile these statements.

It seems clear to me from your statements as well as from the
language of your proposal that only "a licensed embalmer, a
licensed intern, a registered embalmer's assistant, a
registered apprentice embalmer or a student who assists a
licensed embalmer in the embalming of dead human bodies" is
allowed to embalm or store human remains for more than five
years. I read this as saying that unless the Funeral Board
designates cryonics staff as "embalmers", then the cryonics
institution is not legally able to store human remains for
more than five years. More disturbing is the notion that
people who earn their living striving for precisely the
opposite goal of cryonicists are to be given purview over the
cryonics industry in Arizona. In the recent past, Arizona
Funeral Board Director Rudy Thomas was quoted by author
Richard Sandomir as saying, "These [cryonics] companies need
to be regulated or deregulated out of business." (New York
Times, 14 Oct 2003).

Hence the dark notions of thawing and disposal of patient's
bodies. Am I reading all of this correctly?

As I mentioned earlier, the association of cryonics services
with funeral services is completely inappropriate, since they
strive toward dramatically different goals via fundamentally
different means. The one single point of commonality they
both share is in dealing with clients who meet the legal
criteria for being dead. This commonality is shared by people
who undergo heart transplants, whose body is made cold and
dead, by any legal definition, for periods up to 30 minutes.
I believe my analogy is apt. Cryonics is an experimental
medical procedure, performed in part by a neurosurgeon and
following a precise scientific research protocol. The primary
difference between someone in cryonic suspension and someone
in the middle of a heart transplant operation is that current
medical technology is usually able to repair and resuscitate
the transplant patient, while the cryonics patient must wait
for technology to catch up to his medical condition.
Fortunately, the conditions of his suspension enable him to
wait for centuries, if need be.

Please withdraw this bill. The people of Arizona and all of
the cryonics patrons worldwide would be much better supported
by regulations that placed cryonic industry oversight in the
hands of fiduciaries and qualified cryonics scientists.

Thank you for hearing.
Gregory Bloom



Bob Stump wrote:
Mr. Bloom:

Thank you for asking. Many of the people who have contacted
me have chosen to demonize me and insult me instead of
engaging in a civil and substantive discussion of this bill.


Again, the level of misinformation is astonishing. The bill
does NOT seek to "regulate cryonics under the same rules as
the Funeral and Embalmer's Board." The rule-making process
is a public one, and I have been assured that all due
respect will be paid to the operation of cryonics. Of course
the process is different from that of embalming. No one has
ever denied that.

You have misread the bill. The 5-year issue is as follows:
Any facility that stores human remains (with many
exclusions, i.e., blood) for more than 5 years falls under
the purview of the Funeral Board. We have had several
meetings with stakeholders regarding this issue; I have only
recently heard one concern regarding this time frame (from
an anatomy professor). We will fix this, if need be. I have
been open-minded throughout this process, and continue to be
open-minded.

This bill has nothing whatsoever with "thawing" anyone. (??)

You ask, "Do AZ funeral regulations permit indefinite
storage?" Funeral Board regulations, needless to say, do
deal with final disposition of remains.

Please note that I have always been open to perfecting the
bill, as it moves through the process.

Regarding your statement in your last paragraph, I do not
believe your analogy is a valid one.

Your third paragraph hit the nail on the head. Oversight is
all this bill provides.
All the best,
Representative Bob Stump
Arizona House of Representatives
District 9
1700 W. Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Phone: (602) 542-5413
http://www.azleg.sta...sp?Member_ID=85



-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Bloom [mailto:gjbloom@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:54 PM
To: Bob Stump; Deb Gullett; Philip J. Hanson; Bill
Konopnicki; Colette Rosati; Bill Arnold; Mark Thompson;
Warde Nichols; Cheryl Chase; Phil Lopes; David T. Bradley;
Linda Lopez; Pete Wertheim; Elizabeth Baskett; Courtney
Riddle
Cc: Andy Biggs; Wally Straughn
Subject: RE: HB 2637


Mr. Stump:

Thank you for your prompt reply. As I understand it, HB
2637 seeks to regulate cryonics under the same rules as
the Funeral and Embalmer's Board. As I further understand
it, these regulations prevent the storage of human bodies
for more than five years. If that regulation were applied
to the cryonics industry, then I believe this legislation
would, albeit not explicitly, require the thawing and
disposal of patients currently suspended at Alcor.

Am I misinformed? Do AZ funeral regulations permit
indefinite storage?

I agree that regulations for the industry would be
appropriate. Oversight to assure continued financial and
physical stability of the companies who provide suspension
services, and to assure potential patrons of these
services that the full will and oversight of the State of
Arizona is behind these services. This will provide a
solid reassurance that they or their loved ones will
continue to be preserved.

I reiterate that the intent of cryonics is diametrically
opposite that of the funeral industry, and to attempt to
regulate them by the same rules is wholly inappropriate,
if not macabre. It is similar to asserting that since
people often die in surgery, all surgeons and places where
surgery is practiced should be regulated under the Funeral
and Embalmer's Board regulations.

Please reconsider your sponsorship of this bill.

Thanks,
Gregory Bloom


Bob Stump wrote:
Mr. Bloom:

Have you actually read this bill? You write that this
"legislation...would require thawing and disposal of the
patients currently suspended at Alcor."

That is utterly absurd and has nothing whatsoever to do
with this bill.

Do you believe the cryonics industry should have no
oversight whatsoever? This bill simply provides
oversight of an industry that has none.

This bill does NOT cast judgment, pro or con, on
cryonics -- contrary to what you may have heard.

The misinformation regarding this bill is breathtaking,
as is your message.
All the best,
Representative Bob Stump
Arizona House of Representatives
District 9
1700 W. Washington
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Phone: (602) 542-5413
http://www.azleg.sta...sp?Member_ID=85




-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Bloom [mailto:gjbloom@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 2:15 PM
To: dgullett@azleg.state.az.us;
bstump@azleg.state.az.us; phanson@azleg.state.az.us;
bkonopni@azleg.state.az.us; crosati@azleg.state.az.us;
barnold@azleg.state.az.us; mthompso@azleg.state.az.us;
wnichols@azleg.state.az.us; cchase@azleg.state.az.us;
plopes@azleg.state.az.us; dbradley@azleg.state.az.us;
llopez@azleg.state.az.us
Subject: HB 2637


I'm writing you to express my concern over proposed
legistlation to apply very inappropriate regulations
to the cryonics industry within Arizona. Cryonics
attempts to do the exact opposite of the funeral
industry. Cryonics is an attempt at life
preservation. I understand it requires a stretch of
imagination to forsee a technology advanced enough to
repair the damage caused by freezing, but this same
stretch of imagination would have been required to
foresee manned moon landing from the vantage of the
late 50's, or the notion that most folks would have
computers and could send free email instantly around
the world from the vantage of the early 1980's.

To pass legislation that would require thawing and
disposal of the patients currently suspended at Alcor
would be morally equivalent to passing legislation
that prohibits attempts at resuscitation of a person
who had spent more than five minutes under freezing
water. As we recently found out, people in such a
state may be successfully resuscitated as much as 45
minutes after "drowning" in cold water. To prohibit
attempts at resucitation of such people would now be
viewed on a par with murder.

If it should turn out that cryonics does offer a
viable means of preserving people until medical
science is able to repair both the damage caused by
freezing as well as whatever disease caused them to
seek suspension in the first place, Arizona would look
very shortsighted, if not criminally negligent, to
have passed legislation that foreclosed on these
patient's rights, resulting in their irrevocable
deaths.

Cryonics seeks to make the world a better place. Can
we say the same of the sponsors of this bill?

Please vote NO on HB 2637.

Thank you.
Gregory Bloom

#28 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:05 PM

Excellent. Thank you Gregory for posting the exchange.

#29 gjbloom

  • Guest
  • 10 posts
  • 0

Posted 24 February 2004 - 06:40 PM

I just got this email from Linda Lopez:

From: "Linda Lopez"
To: "'gjbloom@yahoo.com'"
Subject: RE: HB 2637
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:13:00 -0700


I am opposing this bill.

Linda J. Lopez
State Representative - District 29



Do we have a scoreboard showing legislators current position on HB 2637?

#30 thefirstimmortal

  • Topic Starter
  • Life Member The First Immortal
  • 6,912 posts
  • 31

Posted 24 February 2004 - 07:06 PM

Linda also e-mailed me. We should all send her a big thank you. Her e-mail is llopez@azleg.state.az.us
and she is on the health board, and she's the minority whip, so this is a big deal. Make sure the praise is lavish, let's keep her motivated, she's our friend [thumb]




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users