Transvision 2004 - Toronto, Canada

Talking with so many excellent minds, like playing tennis with someone at a more advanced level, I can feel myself becoming better at formulating and expressing ideas with voice. On Fri night we had a round room 3hr latenight discussion with such interesting individuals as Rudi Hoffman, Nick Bostrom, Anders Sandberg, Jose Cordeiro.... i'll post more soon... going to eat breakfast now...

http://www.nowtoront.../news_story.php

NOW | AUG 12 - 18, 2004 | VOL. 23 NO. 50

NO DEATH, PLEASE, I'M BIONIC
CYBORG-OBSESSED TRANSHUMANISTS PUSH BIOETHICAL LIMITS WHILE FENDING OFF
FOES FROM ALL SIDES

BY STEPHEN HUMPHREY

The sensation is akin to micro scopic grubs burrowing forcefully into my
biceps. "Effectively, what we're doing is applying more voltage
externally than what's operating inside your body," says Australian
performance artist Stelarc, turning the dials on his control box. My arm
rises like I'm picking up a briefcase, operated by commands outside my
brain. For the purpose of this demonstration, my upper limb is a found
machine.

To be fair, Stelarc has endured more volts than this, from electrodes
all over his musculature, in "Ping Body" performances during which he's
remotely controlled over the Internet. In his philosophy, the human body
is obsolete technology.

It may be a wild thought, but here at this gathering of 100 at a U of T
Medical Sciences Building lecture theatre, he's preaching to the choir.
While the audience signed up for the TransVisions 2004 conference may
not specifically share Stelarc's personal brand of techno-nihilism,
they'd likely agree that God doesn't exist, the technological millennium
is around the corner and human evolution is a dead end unless directed
from this point by the radical application of science.

The people here refer to themselves as transhumanists and excitedly
define a number of technologies as transhuman, some as everyday as
pacemakers, the Internet and the Atkins diet, others as far-out as
nanotechnology, cryonics and uploading our minds to supercomputers. It's
hard to pin down a precise definition, even if you read all the
literature and ask people point-blank.

Transhuman presupposes the "posthuman," a categorically unknown next
step in evolution. Humans are still in a middle transitional state -
i.e., transhuman. The means to the posthuman are various, whether
through nanotechnology, cryonics, GMOs, cybernetics, genetic engineering
or, yep, cloning.

Founded in 1998 by Yale philosopher and Oxford fellow Nick Bostrom, the
World Transhumanist Association (WTA) has branches in upwards of a
hundred countries. The term "transhumanism" was coined by futurist F-M
2030 and first put to use by an everything-goes society of American
futurists called the Extropians, which remains closely associated with
the WTA.

The latter came along, according to Bostrom, "to provide an
organizational platform and to encourage (transhumanism) to develop into
a more academically respectable and intellectually serious inquiry."

In 2002, George Dvorsky and fellow enthusiast Simon Smith started the
Toronto Transhumanist Association and the online magazine BetterHumans.
Dvorsky and Smith both describe coming to transhumanism after
intellectually restless periods of sampling futurism, Eastern
philosophies, left-leaning politics, mainstream secular humanism and
assorted other ideologies.

Art And Life In The Posthuman Era is the theme of this year's
conference. The human being as a work of art in progress is a good
analogy for the transhumanist project of augmenting ourselves, whether
outwardly with wearable tech or inwardly by rewriting the genome itself.
Critics of the movement, who include environmentalists, bioethicists and
people of faith - "bioconservatives" or "techno-Luddites" in the
transhumanist vocabulary - would call such an approach interfering with
nature, playing God and ignoring the warnings of cautionary fiction like
Aldous Huxley's Brave New World and Margaret Atwood's Oryx And Crake.

"Leave evolution alone?" says Dvorsky. "That's unethical, that's
barbaric, because, as we know from our friend Charles Darwin, nature
works in a very cruel way. The transhumanist agenda, if we can talk
about such a thing, is that ideally we'd like to be in a post-Darwinian
phase where we're no longer subject to natural selection."

No one at this conference is noticeably superhuman. Certainly not
Dvorsky, who has a regular job and kids. And not WTA founder Nick
Bostrom, a pleasant, rather tweedy European. There's at least one
self-proclaimed cyborg, U of T engineering professor Steve Mann, who for
the past 30 years has been his own primary test subject for the wearable
computer and the elegantly designed "eyetap," a camera and sight
enhancer. His latest model is a wire-thin device camouflaged as
eyeglasses.

The sampling of transhumanists at this conference appear to be on the
same evolutionary plateau as the rest of us. While there's much racy
talk about how it would be cool to grow extra limbs or augment ourselves
with robotic bits, both the presenters and walk-ins would most prefer to
enhance their intelligence and live a lot longer - hell, why not
forever?

"Ask it what you think of birth and death," says Stelarc. He's referring
to a towering three-d scan of himself from the neck up, programmed for
conversational strategies. A booming voice voice answers, "Death is an
outmoded evolutionary strategy. The body must become immortal to adapt."


"That's why I have this," says one attendee earlier on, holding up an
arm to show off what appears to be a Medic Alert bracelet. It reads
something like "In event of my death, call this number." It's the number
of a cryonics facility that will try to collect his body within 24 hours
so his head can be frozen in liquid nitrogen and kept safely in a tank,
waiting for people in a sufficiently enlightened age to revive it and
grow him a new body.

No living tissue has ever recovered from the severe freeze of liquid
nitrogen, and there is no guarantee that future humans will be capable
of, or especially interested in, reviving a bunch of strangers' heads
from the ignorant past. Cryonics seems as much a leap of faith as
anything else.

Besides, it's a stopgap measure. Many would rather not die in the first
place. There's a growing body of medical literature proposing that
genetic therapies may eliminate disorders like Huntington's disease,
cancer, diabetes and cystic fibrosis. These treatments would involve the
harvesting of stem cells, a procedure now greatly limited by recently
passed laws in a number of countries, including Canada.

Transhumanists present themselves as a kind of biological pro-choice
movement. Most of them fend off the term "eugenics" ("good origins" in
Latin). "It's tainted," says TTA founder and BetterHumans co-editor
Smith. Some in the fold, however, passionately defend the term and call
for reclaiming it.

The use of hard mechanics to assist the handicapped, from pacemakers to
artificial limbs, is another favourite talking point of transhumanism.
Dvorsky and others - like Mann, who hopes the eyetap can assist the
visually impaired - submit that the disabled are a vanguard of
cybernetic augmentation, since they need technological assists to
approximate normal functioning.

Stelarc raves about a neuro-electric pacemaker that works remarkably
well for Parkinson's patients. The controversy begins when people talk
about fixing what already works. An armless man with a bionic limb is
acceptable, but what about replacing your organic arm with a mechanical
one you like better?

"There's this big debate about enhancement vs. therapy," says Smith.
"Transhumanists and a lot of bioethicists say it's arbitrary. It just
depends where you draw the line."

While a number of transhumanists tend toward social democratic views and
favour government regulation to some extent, there are also outright
libertarians. The Extropians, who have moderated some extremes of their
rhetoric since the 80s, favour terms like "spontaneous order" and
propose that science try everything and let the market and/or the
survivors of future cataclysms decide. In other words, keep the
government out of it and your copy of The Fountainhead close by.

Dvorsky favours careful regulation of cloning science to prevent abuses.
"Hopefully, future governments will honour the needs of citizens and not
(those of) of corporations." He believes world democracy will be
necessary for the human race to truly evolve. Still, he speaks about his
right-leaning co-thinkers with a kind of collegial tolerance.

"Of course, being a transhumanist, one could say that I'm a
bio-libertarian to some degree," says Dvorsky. "When I see something
like Bill C-6 slip through, I'm very troubled at how much of a role the
government is still playing in our lives."

Bill C-6, the Assisted Human Reproduction Act, passed by the federal
government in March, bans all forms of human cloning, prenatal
manipulations like gender selection, and creating human-animal hybrids.
Countries all over the world have drafted similar cloning laws or have
them in the works. C-6 goes too far, says Dvorsky.

Unlike cloning laws in England, Korea and elsewhere, C-6 forbids
therapeutic cloning, in which a cloned embryo is created specifically to
harvest stem cells that would be compatible with a given patient. Such
cloning could be used to treat Alzheimer's or grow Christopher Reeve a
new spine.

Transhumanists who tend to secular humanism complain a lot about the
feds caving in to religious lobbies on these matters. Mark Walker, an
ethical philosopher at U of T's Trinity College, good-naturedly turns
the "playing God" metaphor on its head. "If you take seriously the idea
that we're children of God, then, like our own children, we shouldn't
stay children our whole lives. The point is that they should develop and
become identical with us."

One point where transhumanists clearly diverge from environmentalists,
their other sparring partner, is their position on GMOs.
Environmentalists point to research that reveals suspect nutritional
value, super-weeds that require even more noxious herbicides,
contamination of indigenous and organic strains, etc.

Greenpeace and the transhumanists have posted pretty much opposite
responses about GMOs. But some transhumanists believe that
environmentalism needn't be anti-technology. Steve Mann, who uses solar
panels and wind turbines to help power his house, proposes that a good
eyetap would reduce power consumption in lighting your house because
you'd be able to see in the dark.

More provocatively, Mann has called himself a "cyborg Luddite." He's
less than thrilled by the notion of artificial intelligence. "Mediation"
of human intelligence is Mann's preferred direction - to make the human
brain and body easier to use, but always with a plain old human enjoying
the advantages at the centre.

There are, though, those on the fringes of the transhumanist community
who seem to confirm everyone's worst eugenic nightmares. In 2002, the
WTA officially dissociated itself from the self-named Marcus Eugenicus
when he posted links to racialist groups on their Web ring. Eugenicus,
in turn, established the Promethians, whose intention is to establish a
superior race bred for "intelligence and patriotism."

Certainly, compared to Eugenicus, transhumanists seem quite reasonable.
Says Dvorsky, "I'm convinced that we're inexorably headed toward an
existential paradigm shift."

Assuming that progress is likely not slowing down, there is merit in at
least discussing all these new human creations and their looming
capacity to alter, improve or truly bollocks up everything.

news@nowtoronto.com

Reason: The Transhumans Are Coming! And they're promoting mito flushes,
sousveillance, cyberglogging, and genetic virtue
http://www.reason.co.../rb081104.shtml
4.8.11 by Ronald Bailey

And they're promoting mito flushes, sousveillance, cyberglogging, and
genetic virtue

The [11]World Transhumanist Association's annual
conference--TransVision 2004--attracted some 125 philosophers,
scientific researchers, and techno-visionaries to Toronto last weekend
to think about, discuss, and promote the ways in which technology will
transform human lives. WTA members come from around the world; they
want to nurture an intellectual and policy environment in which
advanced biotechnology, nanotechnology, and informatics help people
live longer, healthier lives, become more intelligent, and gain
control over their emotions. On display at TransVision 2004 were some
notable advances in their efforts.

Probably the most immediate goal of these transhumanists is promoting
research that will radically increase healthy human lifespans. This
topic was addressed at a plenary presentation on "The Feasibility and
Desirability of Indefinite Youth" by Cambridge University theoretical
biogerontologist (and new editor of the scientific journal
[12]Rejuvenation Research), [13]Aubrey de Grey. De Grey identifies the
"[14]seven deadly things" that cause aging and argues researchers have
now reached the point where an engineering approach to preventing the
damage they cause is tractable.

For example, one of the chief causes of aging is mutations in
mitochondrial genes. The mutations are a byproduct of the
energy-producing activities of these cellular organelles that damages
their own small genomes consisting of only 13 genes. Most genes are
encoded by DNA in a cell's nucleus. "Mitochondrial DNA is massively
less well protected than nuclear DNA," said De Grey. Consequently, De
Grey argues that mitochondrial genes would be safer and less subject
to mutation if they were engineered into the nuclear genes. And this
is not an impossible goal, since a number of researchers have already
managed to do just that for a variety of organisms. His hypothesis is
that better protected mitochondrial genes would slow down one of the
seven deadly things that cause aging. De Grey suggested that the other
six causes of aging are also amenable to such "[15]strategies for
engineering negligible senescence." At the end of his talk, he
predicted that there is "50/50 chance of effectively reversing aging
in 25 years."

For those of us whose mitochondrial genes look to be battered about as
they are left hanging outside the nucleus for the rest of our all too
short lives, University of Virginia researcher [16]Rafal Smigrodski
offered some hope. In his presentation, "How to buy new mitochondria
for your old body" Smigrodski described work he and his colleague Shah
Khan at Gencia Corporation are doing that is aimed at completely
replacing defective mitochondria with fresh new ones. Look for whole
body "mito flushes" in a few years.

But the transhumanists in Toronto were not only concerned about long
healthy happy lives; they were also concerned with truth. George Mason
University economics professor [17]Robin Hanson argued that
super-rational posthumans in the future won't be able to "agree to
disagree," chiefly because they'll agree on everything. Hanson
[18]argues that disagreements among less than super-rational people
today exist largely because we deceive ourselves about what we really
know to be true. There are good "reasons" for us to think that, for
example, "the more you believe in yourself, the more you can get other
people to believe in you," and thus get them to do what you want. But
super-rational posthumans won't be able to deceive themselves or
others, suggests Hanson. Does this mean the end of politicians?

In another session, McMaster University philosopher and editor of the
[19]Journal of Evolution and Technology, Mark Walker gave a talk on
"[20]Genetic Virtue", the ethics of bioengineering children to be
virtuous. Walker began by pointing out that parents and communities
already spend a lot of time and effort trying to instill virtues in
the young. Assuming that genes that predispose people toward being
honest and caring for others can be found, what would be wrong with
allowing parents to use biotechnology, say, [21]pre-implantation
genetic diagnosis, to increase the chances that their children are
born with those virtues? Walker concluded that if we accept that the
goal of ethics is to make our lives and our world better, then we
ought to explore the plausibility and possibility of genetically
instilled virtue. One audience member suggested that this would remove
a child's free will, but I pointed out that a child doesn't get any
extra measure of free will just because they have randomly conferred
genes.

Opening the conference was the rather creepy [22]Steve Mann, who has
been trying to turn himself into a [23]cyborg for years. Mann
apparently insists on seeing the world through a set of goggles that
laser-write video onto his retinas. Using a video hookup, he could
share with the audience exactly what he was seeing; his view was
available on a giant screen onstage. Mann's subject was the future of
wearable computers (people encased in computer gear were referred to
as "gargoyles" in some science fiction novel I read a while back). In
the future we will see what he calls cyberglogging, which will be
essentially sound and video [24]lifeblogs compiled by omnipresent
wearable video and audio hookups. Mann has a response to people who
worry that we are becoming too dependent upon technology. "Don't shoes
and clothing damage our ability to survive wild in the woods?,"
retorts Mann. "Calculators make our brains rot; clothes make our
bodies rot; shoes make our feet rot, don't they?"

In addition, Mann, in the spirit of David Brin's [25]The Transparent
Society, also pointed out that we live in world in which surveillance
(that is, "watching from above") cameras are becoming ubiquitous. His
response is "[26]sousveillance", or "watching from below"; in other
words, the watched turn their cameras onto the watchers. To
demonstrate his aphorism that "surveillance and [27]sousveillance get
along about as well as matter and anti-matter," Mann showed the
audience video of him talking with clerks and security guards in a
department store. Invariably they refused to answer his questions
about surveillance and asked him to turn his cameras off. Mann asks
them why they are uncomfortable when he's videoing them, when after
all they are videoing him without his permission.

Setting aside the fact that Mann is voluntarily on private property,
that he is a prestigious professor picking on clerks who are not the
ones who run the store much less its surveillance policies, and that
being aggressively videoed by some random guy is naturally
intimidating, he does have a point. As he says, "sousveillance should
never be prohibited in area that is undergoing surveillance." And I
bet that when we all can wear completely unobtrusive video and audio
recording devices, no one will much care--we'll just assume that we're
on camera all the time.

But TransVision 2004 was not all techno-science and philosophy.
Saturday evening featured a presentation by the Australian performance
artist [28]Stelarc. Now, generally my attitude toward performance art
isn't very welcoming, but Stelarc is the real deal. Stelarc insists
that humans are--and have always been--Zombies and Cyborgs. Our bodies
are not inhabited by Cartesian "minds," and as cyborgs we've always
used technology to extend the reach of our bodies into the world. To
demonstrate his points, Stelarc offered the assembled transhumanists a
fascinating (and fun) multi-media program encompassing his career from
his days hanging from [29]giant hooks thrust through his skin to
creating and running [30]insectoid cyborg machines to a [31]prosthetic
head using the [32]Alice AI program to answer viewers' questions.

Well-meaning though transhumanists may be, their efforts are
apparently giving some people the willies. "Transhumanists intend to
take us on a long march to post humanity," [33]warns [34]Center for
Bioethics and Culture special consultant, Wesley J. Smith. "If that is
not to happen, we will have to resist." Resist longer and happier
lives, better health, stronger bodies, and smarter brains? The
prospect sounds incredibly dangerous to me! It must be stopped!

However, listening to the panels and presentations at TransVision
2004, Smith does get it essentially right when he notes, "They assert
that humans should not merely be allowed to metamorphose themselves
through plastic surgery, cyber-technology, and the like, but should
have the right to control the destiny of their genes via progeny
design and fabrication." Yes, indeed they do. And so what? Well, watch
this space as I occasionally chronicle the opening of the
transhumanist front in our ongoing culture wars.
-------------------------------------
Ronald Bailey is Reason's science correspondent. His new book,
Liberation Biology: A Moral and Scientific Defense of the Biotech
Revolution will be published in early 2005.

References

11. http://www.transhuma....php/WTA/index/
12. http://www.liebertpu...EJ/default1.asp
13. http://www.gen.cam.a...sens/AdGbio.htm
14. http://www.gen.cam.a.../sens/just7.htm
15. http://www.gen.cam.a...sens/index.html
16. http://www.healthsys...l.cfm?drid=1151
17. http://hanson.gmu.edu/home.html
18. http://216.239.41.10...ts honest&hl=en
19. http://www.jetpress.org/contents.htm
20. http://www.permanentend.org/gvp.htm
21. http://www.reason.co.../rb030602.shtml
22. http://wearcam.org/
23. http://www.nowtoront.../goods_next.php
24. http://www.livingroo...ia_lifeblog.php
25. http://www.j-bradfor...ransparent.html
26. http://www.reason.co.../nh123002.shtml
27. http://www.reason.co...bd.poking.shtml
28. http://www.stelarc.v....au/index2.html
29. http://www.stelarc.v...ns/suspens.html
30. http://www.stelarc.v...eton/index.html
31. http://www.stelarc.v...head/index.html
32. http://www.alicebot.org/
33. http://www.thecbc.or...play.php?id=129
34. http://www.thecbc.org/

Toronto TransVision 2004

CHAT:

Chat Time - Aug 15 @ 8 PM Eastern:
http://www.imminst.org/chat

Chat archive posted below....

====

PHOTOS:


Toronto Transvision 2004 - Photos: by Bruce Klein



WTA Directors: Jose Cordeiro, Michael LaTorra




Santiago Ochoa, Jose Cordeiro present "Religion, Science & Immortality"




Santiago Ochoa



Patrick Hopkins, John Oh, Anders Sandberg




George Dvorsky, Simon Smith - Betterhumans.com

George (and Volunteers) did a wonderful job!




Max More - Natasha Vita-More








Kip Werking




James Hughes, Ron Bailey





Nick Bostrom, (?)





wife, Joao Pedro de Magalhaes




Catarina Lamm, Tihamer Toth-Fejel




Mike Treder presenting JBS Haldane Award for Best Undergraduate Transhumanist Paper to Kip Werking for The Posthuman Condition








Mike Treder presenting the H.G. Wells Award for Outstanding Transhumanist Contributions to Aubrey de Grey




JBS Haldane Award Adress by: Ron Bailey - Science Correspondent, Reason




Kip Werking, (?), Jose Cordeiro, Kevin Perrott




Kip Werking




Jose Cordeiro


PS: Sorry for not including better photos of more people. So many people, so little time.


TRANSVISION 2005 - VENEZUELA

TransVision05 will be in Caracas, Venezuela
http://www.transhuma...005proposal.htm




http://www.worldpres...s/venezuela.cfm

TransVision 2004 Coverage
PART ONE: A RAMBLING OVERVIEW OF TV2004

“Transhumanism is a way of thinking about the future that is based on the premise that the human species in its current form does not represent the end of our development but rather a comparatively early phase.”

- Prof. Nick Bostrom, Oxford University


IMAGE SIDEBAR
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are a few photos we took at TransVision. I felt a little bit like a “science groupie” asking people to let me take a photo with them, but hey, it was exciting for me! I should also note that in this article I’ve barely skimmed the surface of most of these brilliant minds — I strongly encourage you to check out their websites and google them for more.


Steve Mann (wearcam.org) speaking about wearable computing, glogging, and sousveillance. I really urge you to visit his websites to learn more about how he’s augmenting and mediating the human experience using a cyborg body.


Dr. Rafal Smigrodski (Gencia Corporation) talking about his work on mtDNA replacement which could cure diseases such as Parkinson’s, Alzheimers, and diabetes, as well as dramatically extending lifespans.

More: http://www.bmezine.c...g/20040812.html


Allen Randall’s talk on “Quantum Miracles and Immortality” included discussion of a number of amusing thought experiments. In simple terms, quantum theory suggests that all possible states exist at once (ie. there are multiple worlds, like in that show Quantum Leap). Therefore, if you try to kill yourself in a way that has an (impossibly high) high chance of success in every one of these worlds, only the immortals survive — thus creating a quantum state that favors your immortality. I’m not really sure if this talk was supposed to be serious or just really funny, but I enjoyed it and I’ve always been a sucker for philosopher mathematicians.

====



Shannon Larratt is the editor and publisher of BMEZINE.COM, the largest and oldest full-spectrum body modification publication on the planet. He also is known for his promotion of radical individualistic politics, spirituality, and on a more base level, his main vice: exotic cars. Shannon lives in Canada with his family and friends where he is currently producing the BME movie.
Copyright © 2004 BMEZINE.COM. Permission is granted to reprint this article in its entirety as long as credit is retained and usage is non-commercial. Requests to publish edited or shortened versions must be confirmed in writing. For bibliographical purposes this article was first published August 12th, 2004 by BMEZINE.COM in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Fantastic photos, Bruce!

Thank you so much for taking these pictures and posting them. Sorry I have not written earlier -- I just drove from Texas to Virginia. I have not been on the net for four days. Even now, I am typing from the Williamsburg public library. As for myself, I have written an eleven page account of my experience at TV04 which I expect you would enjoy reading. Many have said it is too rude and Aubrey has pointed out many errors in it, so I will need to revise it before publishing to the public. I will send you a private copy now, however.

Thank you BJ for the pictures.

Why is it that Shannon Larratt, and several other attending the conference, think that scaring the body is futuristic? Since early times, humans have been drawing pictures, cutting in the the skin and making all sorts of designs on the skin for effect, both to ward off the enemy and to entice a sexual encounter.

At the film screening, I showed the film "Synthetic Pleasures" which illustrates the many types of markings to the skin done by Goth practitioners as well as the piercing culture. Perhaps this film and the significance thereof is more what this counter culture is representative of. Althou, I I'm not sure.

Being posthuman can certainly be about making makes on the outer sheath of the human body, but it is not what being posthuman is striving for. The science and technology for designing posthumans is matter of smart engineering techniques, coupled with the idea of living indefinitely.

Natasha Vita-More

Thanks, John. I've read your review with great interest and enjoyment.. and look forward to posting it to the ImmInst Member Article Archive soon.

Thanks, Natasha. The impulse for bodily manipulation is an interesting artifact of our evolutionary heritage.... it seems some people are attracted to ways in which they can differentiate themselves from others, but while also forming a bond with a group of like minded body manipulators.

I don't consider that kind of body modification futuristic in any way. As a personal pursuit it is fine, but I would not try to relate it to transhumanism because as Natasha said it is not what being posthuman strives for primarily.

TV04 -- Chat Discussion

<John_Ventureville> Bruce, what was your take on the "modernity" of the CI facility?
<BJKlein> quite impressive
<John_Ventureville> really?
<BJKlein> they've imployed a number of cost saving measures
<John_Ventureville> I like the design of their storage tanks
<serenade> oh you went to MI?
<BJKlein> yes, Cryonics Institute in Clinton Township, MI
<serenade> not far from me
<serenade>
<John_Ventureville> serenade, ever visited them?
<BJKlein> see homepage of imminst and click on Ettinger
<serenade> nope
<John_Ventureville> I hear they are very open to visits
<John_Ventureville> as long as you make an appointment
<BJKlein> yep, quite happy to have me
<serenade> i will look into it
<BJKlein> just send David Z. an email
<serenade> only an hour drive
* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<BJKlein> Aug 15 - Toronto TransVision 2004
<BJKlein> Photos & Chat discussion of the event
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...=30
<BJKlein> Would like to thank George Dvorsky (and volunteers) for excellent job..
<BJKlein> thinking of doing something similar in 2005 Oct for ImmInst
<BJKlein> Kip Werking gave an excellent presentation and acceptance speech re: "The Posthuman Condition"
<BJKlein> http://www.ece.utexa...g/posthuman.htm
*** Joins: goomba (zubat@ACAA157E.ipt.aol.com)
<BJKlein> My film friend (Natty Coleman) didn't show, so I'm now transforming myself into a director
<BJKlein> good quality digital video camcorders are now under 3k
<BJKlein> so it's within budget to purchase the equip. and then logical to have one person with the knowlege of filmmaking
<BJKlein> anyway.. that's another topic
*** Joins: Lazlo (~Lazlo@ool-182c9f9d.dyn.optonline.net)
<BJKlein> Sad that Michael Anissimov was unable to make the trip to Toronto
<BJKlein> if anyone hears anything from MA, let me know
<John_Ventureville> I wonder what happened to him
<BJKlein> not sure... no word
<BJKlein> it was great to meet Max More and Natasha
<John_Ventureville> BJ, so you were a one-man film crew at TV 04?
<John_Ventureville> I bet
<BJKlein> actually, didn't have film equipment yet.. (it's on the way now)
<John_Ventureville> dang
<John_Ventureville> so you mean there will be no footage of TV 04 for the ImmInst film?
<BJKlein> but, i think this is better because i can now travel to each person's home/office for better interviews
<Lazlo> Hi BJ I/m very glad you could attend the meeting this year, goo to have you back too
<BJKlein> thanks laz..
<BJKlein> i will be traveling the conuntry over the next few months to do interviews
<John_Ventureville> you will be a busy beaver doing that
<John_Ventureville> how many people will you be visiting?
<BJKlein> hope to capture 30
*** Joins: Mind (~Mind@c68.191.163.105.stp.wi.charter.com)
<BJKlein> or more..
<John_Ventureville> nice
<BJKlein> start in Atlanta - Peter Passaro, Merkle, Yudkowsky
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, your movie will in a way be a time capsule
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<John_Ventureville> yes, I want to hear the itinerary!
<BJKlein> travel down to FL - Saul Kent, Rudi Hoffman, John Oh.. William Faloon
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Lazlo> Tell us about Jose's apparal a bit that was quite the get up
<BJKlein> heh, Jose's garg was a jab at religion..
<John_Ventureville> I thought he looked very sharp
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> in that it was representative of man's tendency to kill each other..
<John_Ventureville> ?
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<BJKlein> he quoted AClark in that religion is the worst virus/blight on man
<BJKlein> sorry, just relaying the info
<Mind> Official Chat Topic = TV04?
<BJKlein> hi Mind, yes
<John_Ventureville> I thought the speakers on religion would be more tolerant
<BJKlein> well, he was the exception
<John_Ventureville> had their been A level coverage of the conference, such comments do not go far to "win friends and influence people"
<BJKlein> Faith & Transhumanism was on Thursday.. and was generally felt to be a good coming together
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<John_Ventureville> ok
<BJKlein> about half the group raised hands when aske if they were religions (thus half group = atheist)
<John_Ventureville> I read the great article about TV 04 written by the body mod guy
<BJKlein> that was a point of discussion.. should we expect religion and transhumanism to mix.. no clear concensus was reached
<John_Ventureville> and he said the conference was very sparsely attended
<BJKlein> about 120 regestered
<Lazlo> What do you expect of the confeence next year in Venezuela?
<John_Ventureville> BJ, in Venturist circles the desire is the creation of a fully rational religion
<Mind> Bruce...what's up with Kip's review of TV04...I just got a hint about it being a little rude...can you expand?
<BJKlein> it Laz, TV05 looks to be good, with Jose Cordeiro leading the event
<John_Ventureville> I cannot imagine the Venezuela conference being anything more than a "ghost town" gathering
<John_Ventureville> unless it somehow gets strong local support
<Mind> "ghost "town?...like there will not be many attendees?
<John_Ventureville> exactly!
<BJKlein> Mind, Kip is not rude in his mind.. he's very rational and perhaps more direct..
<Lazlo> John is anticipating part of my concern that given teh deteriorating conditions there
<BJKlein> the only part that I thought may have been rude was his review of Nick Bostrom's presentation on Transhumanism and answering the Why question
<John_Ventureville> I feel having the conference in south america is just moving things too far ahead of how they should be
<Lazlo> and the enmity between him and James. BTW, were they well behaved?
<Mind> South America...I am sure is a outreach mission...right?
<BJKlein> Jose and James were on good terms..
<BJKlein> as to be expected in meatspace
<BJKlein> Mind -- "World" Transhumanist Assoc
<John_Ventureville> what did he say about Nick Bostrom's presentation?
<BJKlein> he said Nick reshased old idea
<Mind> right... "World"TA.
<BJKlein> but, in another paragraph he praised Nick for being a bastion of hope.. so
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<John_Ventureville> by the way...
<John_Ventureville> who is Kip?
<John_Ventureville> I've never heard of him before
<BJKlein> Kip Werking.. ImmInst member
<John_Ventureville> is he one of your officers?
<BJKlein> 22 yr old.. to be college student law william/marry
<BJKlein> no
<John_Ventureville> ahh, ok
<John_Ventureville> a young man of Yudkowskian dimensions
<BJKlein> ya
<John_Ventureville> but in his case he believes in higher education
<BJKlein> heh
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, was their a feeling of "energy" at TV 04?
<BJKlein> very much so...
<John_Ventureville> did you get goosebumps?
<BJKlein> never talked so much in my life
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> also did a Canadian Public TV interview
<John_Ventureville> did you get a good sitdown with Anders?
<John_Ventureville> that's very cool
<Jonesey> i thought kip werking was at u of texas
<BJKlein> ya, we had a good breakfast..
<Jonesey> young anorexic guy strugging with CR
<BJKlein> talked with Anders about underlying motivations and how people can kid themselves
<John_Ventureville> interesting
<BJKlein> Jonesey, Kip has graduated
<John_Ventureville> did Anders speak?
<John_Ventureville> so he's on to law school?
<BJKlein> yes.. on Mind/Compter Interface = Anders
<Jonesey> bjk cool,thought he was gonna kill himself trying to do CR
<John_Ventureville> (Kip)
<BJKlein> Law School = William & Mary
<BJKlein> Kip got councling and had gained weight.. looking great now
<John_Ventureville> wow
<EmilG> I wonder what Stelarc was like
<BJKlein> as you can see in pics
<BJKlein> Stelarc was cool..
<BJKlein> showed video of his past performances being a human piece of hanging meat(with hooks)
<John_Ventureville> I never thought of the possibility of a transhumanist form of CR induced eating disorder
<BJKlein> CR justified by the Life Extension benifits
<BJKlein> pics: http://www.imminst.o...=30
<BJKlein> Kip has a beautiful mind
<EmilG> Stelarc indeed sounds cool, but the spectacle of his performance art is completely contrary to what I think transhumanism should be about.
<BJKlein> ya, well.. the later part of his presentation was a bit more transhuman..
<John_Ventureville> I wonder if Kip has ever met Greg Burch, ExI member and crackerjack attorney
<John_Ventureville> Kip might need a mentor such as he
<BJKlein> he demonstrated a virtual head with ALICE virtual AI engine
<BJKlein> hmm, don't think Kip has met Greg..
<EmilG> The same reason I despise Wired magazine -- it's all about the "style" of technology-lovers, and its presentation discourages actual technical arguments.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, have you ever met Greg?
<BJKlein> only via online chat
<BJKlein> he's big on China
<Mind> PUBLIC TV INTERIEW!!! That is great. Bruce, when did it/does it air?
<John_Ventureville> he's a great guy, and not your typical transhumanist
<John_Ventureville> he smokes among other things
<BJKlein> hmm, not sure when it airs.. but I sorta doubt i'll be included..
<Mind> ???
<BJKlein> as there were many others more talented than i
<John_Ventureville> he has a Mike Hammer/Stacey Keach feeling to him
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Mind> Did they interview you about Imminst or TV04
<BJKlein> Max More, Natasha, James Hughes, George D....
<BJKlein> a mix of ImmInst, Transhumanism, Cryonics..
<John_Ventureville> BJ, what was your time with Max like?
<BJKlein> i suspect they'll pull out the most idiotic thing i said or something
<BJKlein> heh, i first met max in the bathroom of the dorm..
<John_Ventureville> hey, a lot of people meet in bathrooms
<John_Ventureville> ok
<BJKlein> he had a towel and was buffed.. brushing his teeth
<BJKlein> Jose Cordeiro was there also.. only had small talk..
<BJKlein> but, good think about the Canadian TV thing.. i made a contact with the filmmaker..
<John_Ventureville> ?
<BJKlein> he's connecting me with someone who may do a book reveiw from Penguin
<BJKlein> for ImmInst's first book..
<John_Ventureville> I don't quite understand, did the director of your ImmInst film quit on you?
<John_Ventureville> that is great
<BJKlein> haven't heard from Natty Coleman.. I suspect he's busy with other more lucrative projects
<John_Ventureville> why that money-loving fiend!!!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> thus, it's a good thing in that it propells me into filmmaking
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<Mind> Natty dropped out of the TV04 trip?
<BJKlein> hi duane
<ddhewitt> Hey BJ.
<BJKlein> ya, Mind.. no word.. also no word from Michael Anissimov
<Mind> aaccckkk!!
<BJKlein> np, i've posted more on this in ImmInst Leadership..
<Mind> :-(
<BJKlein> but I'm sorta glad in that we can save money and use the funds for purchase film equip
<BJKlein> which we can have for this and future projects
<Mind> ok
<John_Ventureville> a silver lining, then
<BJKlein> and this way i can use a car and travel to meet everyone at that home/office
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, you drive an SUV?
<BJKlein> i plan to purchase a good gas milage car to save on rental
<BJKlein> trade in suv
<John_Ventureville> I want you to be safe out there
<BJKlein> i see filmmaking as a more effective leverage of our time/resources
<BJKlein> yeah, will focus on driving safe..
<Lazlo> Get a small wagon. I used a Sable wagon for going to Mexico multiple times and I have crossed the coutry in it too
<BJKlein> will sleep in back seat
<BJKlein> or in immortalist's home
<Lazlo> when you need to sleep it means you can strech out for a few hours in a rest stop
<Mind> Was dvon fowler there?
<BJKlein> no Devon either..
<BJKlein> he seems to have been in the middle of a move
<Mind> aaccckkkk!!
<BJKlein> heh
<Mind> double accckkk!!
<John_Ventureville> Canada is so dang in the middle of nowhere!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<Lazlo> Toronto is a suburb of *Detoilet*
<ddhewitt> Hey, that is my home and native land.
<Mind> If I had known this was going to happen I would've taken vacation and helped out with starting the film project up there in Toronto
<BJKlein> duane, are you a Canadian resid?
<BJKlein> i mean citizen..
<ddhewitt> No just a citizen.
<BJKlein> well, a least you have it half right
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<BJKlein> always fun to poke virtual fun at canadians
<ddhewitt> We are used to it.
<ddhewitt> Our own humour tend to be self deprecating.
<BJKlein> good thing.. we brash americans have no concept of sensativity
<John_Ventureville> and we Americans do really love you guys
<John_Ventureville> we promise not to invade you!
<BJKlein> after FL.. and Atlanta.. i plan to travel up to Mass..
<Lazlo> Again you mean, Right John?
<BJKlein> hopefully interview Kurzewil, Minsky..
<EmilG> BJ: Lemme know when you're up here, I'll say hello.
<BJKlein> cool. thanks EmilG
<ddhewitt> You have a place to stay in New Haven if you like, Bruce.
<BJKlein> thanks, duane.. i'll take ya up
<John_Ventureville> hey, the first time we invaded you should be water under the bridge by now!
<John_Ventureville> lol
* EmilG took a class from Minsky; I don't know if he still remembers me.
<BJKlein> how soon ago?
<ddhewitt> Hey John we kicked your butt that time.
<John_Ventureville> true....
<John_Ventureville> but we didn't have Abrams heavy tanks and attack helicopters at that time!
<John_Ventureville> ; )
<ddhewitt> We have many sleeper agents so we are not worried.
<John_Ventureville> *and Canadian morale has been broken with the humbling of your formerly world crushing hockey teams*
<John_Ventureville> hee
<BJKlein> i may be able to make CI's Sept 12 Director's meeting
<Lazlo> Yeah but most of them live in Florida
<BJKlein> CI directors?
<John_Ventureville> Canuck hockey players?
<Lazlo> no the Canadian sleeper agents
<BJKlein> ah, heh
<EmilG> BJ: 1996; he may not remember anymore.
<EmilG> But he did give me a ride back to my dorm once after a meeting.
<BJKlein> ah, yeah. unless you were naked or something
<ddhewitt> Where else are you touring after Mass, BJ?
<John_Ventureville> I've seen the website "Canadian Plans for World Domination"
<John_Ventureville> very funny
<BJKlein> i do plan a trip out to AZ (alcor) and Venturist then CA
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, I should write you an article entitled "Mexican food now financially empowers Immortalism!"
<BJKlein> probably later in Oct
<John_Ventureville> We opened our restaurant a few days ago
<John_Ventureville> *a big hit*
<BJKlein> excellent, mexican food and horses..
<BJKlein> hmmm.. strange combo
<John_Ventureville> not at all
<John_Ventureville> for the southwest
<BJKlein> well, at least it's not asian food
<BJKlein> then i'd be worried
<John_Ventureville> hey, we live in a very ethnically diverse society
<John_Ventureville> to reflect that it should be Cajun-Chinese-Hungarian-Mexican-Thai food
<John_Ventureville> and even that does not cover everyone!
<BJKlein> oh, john.. i want to raid your video collection.. how hard would it be to make copies (i'll pay)
<BJKlein> we can email later if you'd like.. but wanted to implant the idea
<John_Ventureville> what do you want to get your hands on?
* EmilG agitates on behalf of the Mongolian Midget Paraplegic Lesbians.
<John_Ventureville> *good people, too*
<BJKlein> preferable any good Life Extension stuff and Cryonics
<John_Ventureville> I will allow you to enter our most sacred cryonics sanctum sanctorium to view what we have
* BJKlein is humbled
<John_Ventureville> *a big walk-in closet!*
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> heh, cool
<John_Ventureville> we've been sent some very old cryonics journals and newsletters
<John_Ventureville> it's very touching how the early Ettinger era people worked and dreamed
<BJKlein> hmm, any good pics?
<John_Ventureville> we could find some
<BJKlein> may wish to scan for the documentary
<John_Ventureville> sure
<BJKlein> and hope to get permission/rights
<John_Ventureville> hopefully I won't have died from exhaustion by the time you make it here
<BJKlein> heh, working in the restaruant?
<John_Ventureville> the restaurant calls for 14 hour days
<John_Ventureville> yep
<BJKlein> yikes.. man, i thought you were already busy with the rooms
<John_Ventureville> yeah, I thought I was, too!
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> *Libertarian rant*
<BJKlein> i met Keith Henson at TV04
<John_Ventureville> I am so ticked off at the local liquor board
<John_Ventureville> they told us we would have our liquor license in time for our grand opening
<BJKlein> he was the voice of wisdom
<John_Ventureville> and at the last minute for no real reason given say said "sorry, you will have to wait an extra 2 weeks"
<John_Ventureville> *urge to kill*
<BJKlein> no beer?
<BJKlein> there's half the income
<John_Ventureville> no beer, margaritas, vodka, etc.
<John_Ventureville> more than half!
<BJKlein> sheez
<John_Ventureville> but our guests have been understanding
<BJKlein> yeah, and sober
<John_Ventureville> in a week we get the damn piece of paper
* BJKlein End Official Chat
<Lazlo> Eh John like the say in South Park, Blame Canada!
<John_Ventureville> Ventureville can be the place immortalists gather to discuss deep subjects while they get snuckered!
<John_Ventureville> I loved the big battle between Canada and the U.S. in the Southpark movie
<BJKlein> so seems all is on track.. do you guys still have plans for the planned community
<EmilG> Planned community?
<John_Ventureville> yes, and the money from the restaurant will make it a reality
<Lazlo> BJ uis there any particular story you want to relate here off the top of your head about the event ?
<John_Ventureville> human vice and the need for physical pleasure will fund the first real immortalist community!
<BJKlein> the main story if Kip Werking... he's a jewl of a mind.. and I was happy to help him with a place to stay..
<John_Ventureville> *legal, of course*
<BJKlein> if=is
<BJKlein> look for his essay review of TV04 soon to be posted
<ddhewitt> The immortalist community was a very dynamic and vibrant part of TV04.
<John_Ventureville> BJ, please explain what exactly it is about Kip which enthralls you?
<BJKlein> yeah, duane is right.. there was a nice percentage of immortalist presentations
<John_Ventureville> I just wish the conference had been better attended
<ddhewitt> It was great to meet Bruce and Kevin in person and to see Aubrey again.
<BJKlein> Kip has what i call a lexicon mind.. he can relate on many topics and relay the ideas plainly
<BJKlein> yeah, Kev! it was great to see Mr Perrott
<ddhewitt> I liked Aubrey's spin to sell life extension to followers of Kass and the religious.
<Lazlo> If Toronto was not that well attended Caracas will be even tougher I suspect too
<John_Ventureville> it could turn out to be a disaster
<BJKlein> Well, in terms of price to travel and places to stay... it's comperable
<BJKlein> or even cheeper in Caracas
<Lazlo> Have you been outof the country much Bruce?
<BJKlein> Honduras
<BJKlein> for 3 weeks in ~1997
<ddhewitt> Perhaps transhumanists will come to the Imminst conference as an alternative?
<John_Ventureville> Mayer, Arizona is where Transvision 2005 should be held
<Lazlo> Honduras and Venezuela would be similar if Venezuela didn't have oil and Chavez
<John_Ventureville> Here at the lodge we have a conference room which can seat about 100 people, in a few years we will have our first Society for Venturism/Immortalist conference here
<BJKlein> John, not a bad idea... really
<Lazlo> that referendum on Chavez is being voted as we speak
<BJKlein> but, hmm.. may need more room for simultanious conferences
<John_Ventureville> we could have some of the gatherings outdoors
<BJKlein> seems opening fair elections was a net negative for Ven.
<John_Ventureville> we have 34 beautiful high-desert acres of land
<John_Ventureville> when the Ventureville "clubhouse" is built, we will then really have the meeting room space to hold an event like Transvision
<John_Ventureville> we are perhaps not there yet
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, what details can you give us about an ImmInst conference in Oct. of this year?
<BJKlein> not much thus far..
<BJKlein> i need to get to work on that..
<John_Ventureville> will it be held in Birmingham?
<BJKlein> Aubrey was helpful with ideas.
<BJKlein> Atlanta, GA
<Lazlo> JOse is a wonderful guy and I hope things work out, but it might be wise to have a plan b to fall back on anyway.
<ddhewitt> Is it in 2004 or 2005- the imminst conference?
<John_Ventureville> ?
<BJKlein> 2005 Oct ImmInst Conference = Atlanta, GA
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/conference
<John_Ventureville> I have a feeling it will be very well-attended
<BJKlein> hmm, not sure.. i'm still thinking of a hook
<John_Ventureville> "meet Luna, immortalist wonder puppy!"
<John_Ventureville> that's it!
<BJKlein> heh, there ya go
<John_Ventureville> who can resist a cute puppy?
<John_Ventureville> maybe Leon Kass...
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> heh
<ddhewitt> Will we ever live forever?-Hook?
<John_Ventureville> good
<BJKlein> yeah, duane.. something.. or someone
<BJKlein> that gives a focus to the event
<Lazlo> Can you bring Foresight, CRN and others along with an invite to geritric medical study programs as well as teh reaserch biologists?
<BJKlein> like say Christophers Reeves
<Lazlo> geriatric*
<BJKlein> yeah.. i'm not sure if we should go for more tech conference (like Aubrey's in England SENS) or something more philosphical (like TV)
<BJKlein> i'm leaning more toward philosphical for now..
<John_Ventureville> Hugh Hefner and a dozen Playboy Playmates? They might have some really good insights on mitochondrial and telomere aging, hey, you never know!
<John_Ventureville> ; )
<ddhewitt> How about Layman acessible tech and philosophy.
<Lazlo> I think the quality of longer life is a sleeper that can draw the older commnity in faster if e can get teh interest of their physicians
<BJKlein> i feel for it.. so who knows
<BJKlein> good idea, Laz..
<BJKlein> but there are such confs. like A4M
<BJKlein> anti-aging etc
<ddhewitt> That is probably why Aubrey is courting A4M.
<BJKlein> i think we need to puch for a bit more edgy
<Lazlo> Instead of going head on for AARP do an end run and deal with a a fact of progressive successes that the medical community must organize and prepare for
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, how about a "menu" of speakers going on simultaneously who could provide two different levels of sophistication for attendees?
<Jonatan21> courting
<BJKlein> interesting, john
<Jonatan21> what is courting
<BJKlein> asking for help = courting
<John_Ventureville> so there is something for everyone
<John_Ventureville> and.....
<John_Ventureville> to whip up the media frenzy....
* BJKlein loves to whip
<John_Ventureville> invite Leon Kass and others of his ilk to a "friendly" debate held at the conference!
<BJKlein> that'd be a great hook
<Lazlo> agreed that is not the only focus but getting the groups doing cutting edge cybernetics together with the biologists and physicians, even nurses.
<BJKlein> McKibben, perhaps
<Lazlo> Invite Kass but hopefully he will be out of a job by then
<John_Ventureville> you have to do a good Clubber Lang impersonation when you try to pick a fight with Kass and insult his personal manhood
<John_Ventureville> finally he says to you, "alright I will debate you!"
<John_Ventureville> *scene out of Rocky III*
<BJKlein> Leon, I'm the devil
<Lazlo> go for Fukyama maybe
<BJKlein> Fuk, yeah
<BJKlein> that'd be fun..
<John_Ventureville> *if only*
<John_Ventureville> there is plenty of time for you to figure out the right hook
<Lazlo> these guys don't want attention drawn to us or to feel their contribution and cooperation validates the effort but Fuk might feel drawn to defend his work
<John_Ventureville> Lazlo, but what about McKibben?
<BJKlein> Fuk vs Caplan
<John_Ventureville> he is a real hot-head!
<Lazlo> I agree on him too
<Lazlo> I am reading his End of Nature right now
<John_Ventureville> did you see his public presentation on C-Span?
<Lazlo> missed it do you have alink
<John_Ventureville> at one point as he read from his book he literally SHOOK with indignation as he brought up genetic engineering!!
<John_Ventureville> I could not get over that
<John_Ventureville> his entire body shaking
<Lazlo> Hey get the guy running for office in Bruce's state
<John_Ventureville> sadly, he might win
<BJKlein> who's that?
<Lazlo> that hell fire, out of work Supreme Court Justice
<BJKlein> ah..
<John_Ventureville> Bruce McKibben, author of "Enough"
<BJKlein> now that'd be fun
<Lazlo> He'll bring the crowd all right
<BJKlein> Bill McKibben
<John_Ventureville> thank you
<John_Ventureville> I think he is the one to invite
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, just be sure every minute someone is near him with a camera
<John_Ventureville> because I bet at a certain point he will explode with righteous indignation and walk out of there with steam coming out of his ears
<BJKlein> heh
<John_Ventureville> *you want to catch that priceless moment*
<John_Ventureville> it will be so sweet
<John_Ventureville> here is your hook...
<Lazlo> Maybe invite a formal representative from Loyola or Notra Dame to represent the *official* papal view on these matters set up an interaction with scientists and social philosphers.
<Lazlo> Let the sides form and take note
<John_Ventureville> McKibben VRS. Caplan, HEAVYWEIGHT DEBATERS!
<ddhewitt> Good night gents, It has been nice chatting.
<John_Ventureville> good night
<BJKlein> that'll work, john
<John_Ventureville> lol
<BJKlein> seya duane
<BJKlein> love the idea laz
<Lazlo> c-ya duane
<John_Ventureville> Lazlo, you are the voice of reason here
<BJKlein> put in practice would be a job
<John_Ventureville> I'm the scandalous muckraking promoter
<Lazlo> they have whole staffs of political and social philosophy staffs that can make someone available, hey John it is my job, its tough but someone has to do it
<John_Ventureville> I can see the Roman Catholic church coming around on transhumanist issues faster than the evangelicals ever will
<Lazlo> That is why we get their reps from the secular interface out of their Universities
<John_Ventureville> I'm almost surprised there is not some Phd Jesuit who is not also an immortalist
<John_Ventureville> perhaps they are in the shadows at this point
<Lazlo> the churchis building toward a sea change and a world class infight when this Pope dies
<Lazlo> combined with what is going on with the Anglicans ight now we could witness a schism of Reformation proportions in the next decade
<John_Ventureville> what faction among the Cardinals/church do you see coming out on top?
<John_Ventureville> radical reformers? moderates? conservatives?
<John_Ventureville> and will they imbibe the "Holy Fire"?
<John_Ventureville> *Bruce Sterling*
<Lazlo> there is a LOT of bad blood brewing over the *excommunication* idea for *Right to Choose* candidates. This went over the line in our system about the separation of church/state
<John_Ventureville> the conservatives in the R.C. church may force a schism unless they back down
<Lazlo> The *home office* is playing it down but there is a food fight growing in the seminaries. Latins and Africans are teh main constituents of teh church to day and teh Americans hold sway through wealth
<John_Ventureville> to be honest, I just see a "moderate" cardinal becoming the next pope who will try to get the liberal and conservative sides to get along
<John_Ventureville> do you agree?
<Lazlo> The current Pope has loaded the selection process. He has personally appointed the entire College of Cardinals
<Lazlo> He seems to be trying to pick his succesor and not let out who it is
<John_Ventureville> what is your opinion of the composition of the College of Cardinals?
<John_Ventureville> are you saying it is largely conservative?
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<John_Ventureville> I thought there were at least some vocal liberals among their numbers
<Lazlo> they are not reflective of the mainstream, JP has been picking a Conservative College
<Lazlo> a few but they are not the majority
<John_Ventureville> so you think we will get a John-Paul "clone" for the next pope?
<Jonatan21> lol
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> *not meant literally, of course*
<John_Ventureville> ever read the Sterling novel "Holy Fire"?
<EmilG> It'll be another geriatric pope no matter what; not one of these 13th-century party-popes.
<John_Ventureville> post-singularity we may see the return of the "party pope"
<Lazlo> I am saying the Catholic church is divided *unofficially * by the Liberation theologists of Latin America and JP has been maneuvering against them by loading the College of Cardinals with hand picked supporters
<Jonatan21> the pope will be cryopreserved
<John_Ventureville> but hopefully not the "assassin pope"
<BJKlein> take care guys! seya next week
<John_Ventureville> BJ, good night!
<Jonatan21> good night
<John_Ventureville> a good chat
<Jonatan21> today was a good day to chat
<John_Ventureville> but not to die!!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Lazlo> be good and rest. I hope you are finding cause to smile, Say hi to Susan
<BJKlein> will do
<John_Ventureville> and pet Luna for me
<John_Ventureville> we have a ADHD great dane puppy around here driving me crazy
<John_Ventureville> Lazlo, what makes you such an ardent student of R.C. church politics and hierarchy?
<Lazlo> I study the politics of religion as a historical interest. The Medici's fascinate me
<John_Ventureville> A few months ago I listened to a book on tape about the Borgia's
<John_Ventureville> interesting people
<Lazlo> The modern church is facing death by attritino without an infuion of welath and followers
<John_Ventureville> how much time do they have left?
<John_Ventureville> a century?
<Lazlo> attrition* & infusion*
<Lazlo> less at teh current rate as politics is changing globally but they are making inroadsinto Africa and Asia interstingly enough
<John_Ventureville> between a lack of priests entering seminaries & priests molesting kids and the resulting bank account sapping lawsuits, I see the American church really weakening
<Lazlo> The American churchis imploding
<John_Ventureville> I have read lay members are now taking on more and more responsibility
<Lazlo> but the American Churchis about to do what the Anglican did and teh Anglican of Africa is thinking to return to the fold over the gay issue
<John_Ventureville> on the other hand, the Mormon church and the evangelicals seem to be still going strong
<Lazlo> the irony is that no congregation can leave the Amglican and keep the church property they built. It is forfeit under their by-laws
<John_Ventureville> according to sociologist Rodney Starke, at current projections by 2080 Mormonism will be the next "great" world religion in terms of both numbers and influence
<John_Ventureville> an interesting by-law
<Lazlo> That is too ambitious INMO and would be balanced against an equal amount of fundamentalist Islam as they are competing evangelicals in a sense
<John_Ventureville> Mormonism can morph much better than Islam, and has centralized wealth to keep the machine going
<John_Ventureville> among other things
<Lazlo> We are seing hte beginning of open war over religon again in many areas
<Lazlo> Darfur and now Barundi again
<John_Ventureville> what happened in the Sudan really bothered me
<John_Ventureville> and is still happening
<Lazlo> In Indonesia it is an issue and the Phillipines
<Lazlo> we are seeing sides forming around the religious divide
<Lazlo> that massacre yesterday was tribal and targeted the Tutsies again
<John_Ventureville> the clash of cultures vrs. the old clash of nations
<Lazlo> yep we have growing internal versus internation conflicts and vertical and horizontal conflicts involving a clash of culures superimposed on it
<John_Ventureville> and at the same time technology is exponentially advancing along toward mind-boggling progress over the next 50 years, the resulting possible conflaguration is horrifying to think about
<Lazlo> it is a problem. ONe tha Itry to encourage a form of grassroots bootstrapping
<Lazlo> to address
<Lazlo> There are serious problems brewing between groups and we cannot keep these dogs apart forever
<Lazlo> gotta go folks. fun chatting withya John, take care
<John_Ventureville> I find it ironic that I used to think to myself "I'm sure glad humanity did not develop these technologies back 500-1,000 years ago because we were so not ready for them, and yet I think we may not be that much more ready now!
<Lazlo> its close
<John_Ventureville> good night, Lazlo
<Lazlo> we haven't come that far and teh majority of the world is anywhere from a decade to fifty years behind us when they simply have not even caught up to teh twentieth century
<John_Ventureville> I remember in "Cosmos" where Sagan said if Greek experimentation had continued, at this point starships might be returning from Alpha Centauri!
<Lazlo> Johnny begoode
<John_Ventureville> oh, well
<John_Ventureville> night
<Lazlo> it is probably true I

Bruce -- I am not immune to flattery! And I am glad that I did not inconvenience you too much in Toronto.

That was a very interesting discussion of the Catholic Church...

I was unaware you are Kip, John.

And I should add another minor point of the global power of the Pope as opposed to any other religious group today, the Vatican is technically a true theocratic state and JP is the last of the Post WWII Patriarchs to hold world power. When he dies that political era will officially be over. The torch will pass to another generation en toto.

The transition has been going on for over twenty years but the phase shift is nearly done.

Heh, Kip. I'm sure you'll build up defenses.

Faith in Transhumanism
http://www.aleph.se/...nshumanism.html
by: Anders Sandberg

The Faith, Transhumanism and Hope Symposium at Trinity College, Toronto brought up a sensitive issue: what is the relationship between religion and transhumanism?

According to a survey of the views of members, 75% described themselves as non-religious. Just bringing up religion on a transhumanist forum tends to start fierce denunciations of it as an evil, death-bringing meme. On the other hand, transhumanism certainly deals with issues traditional religion and spirituality are interested in: the perfectibility of humans, immortality and eschatology. Who can deny there is a certain millennialism in some of the writings about the Singularity?

Jende Huang of the American Humanist Association pointed out that while there are a lot of similarities between transhumanism and humanism, transhumanism does seem to be qualitatively different and complementary in outlook. Tihamer Toth-Fejel demonstrated that it is possible to combine Catholicism with transhumanism. In many ways both seek to achieve more of being, truth and love, although the means may differ (and sometimes get into conflict, like embryonic stem cell research).

Patrick Hopkins presented a very nice taxonomy (I like his taxonomies; he had one at TransVision 2003 of posthuman bodies) of worldviews based on how one reacts to the minimalist account of humans as mere animals.

One can either be satisfied with this and not see any reason to transcend it (such materialists often see transcendence attempts as harmful). Or one can be dissatisfied and want to be more. In this case one may believe it is impossible to actually transcend it, leading to coping strategies and attempts to accept the sad situation - some forms of romanticism, postmodernism, existentialism and to some extend Buddhism (where perfect coping leads to transcendence). Another approach is hoping: maybe there is more to life, there may be transcendence but it is not part of ordinary life. Then there is the working approaches, where transcendence either already exist (we have immortal souls) or can be achieved somehow. Both transhumanism (achievement) and Christianity (already transcendent, just need to brush up our spiritual side from
sin) fall into this category.

I found these three initial talks very rewarding because they mapped out the field. Transhumanism sits in the uneasy middle ground between humanism and religion, sufficiently similar to both to annoy them but still different in many crucial aspects. It is not a religion (especially since there are so many potential variants), nor is it a pure humanism. It may be both complementary and compatible in some respects, but also incompatible and opposed in other.

Peter Addy and Mike LaTorra discussed other approaches to spirituality, not really seeing any fundamental problem with combining materialism and a spiritual outlook - one can be spiritual without the spirits.

Mark Walker demonstrated a fun way of solving the theodicy problem approaching the Irenaean view that God wants us to become more god-like.

This meshed interestingly with James Hughes talk about self-perfection from a Buddhist standpoint, where one question was whether pills making us (say) more compassionate without doing a long quest of personal overcoming would be moral or not. The overall transhumanist position is likely that they would be moral and desirable (Mark held a talk about genetic enhancements of morality later at the conference), since these virtues are good in themselves (and of course good for others too) regardless of how they are acquired. But maybe there is an advantage in slow acquisition of morality since that will produce a more valuable form, an individually created qualitatively unique way of expressing each of the virtues (my generosity is different from your generosity).

That still doesn't rule out the desirability of a morality pill to help us on our way, just as antidepressants can be combined with therapy to produce a synergetic effect.

Santiago Miguel Ochoa Parra presented an account of evolution suggesting that immortality was the goal of life. Life can be defined as a behavior that prevents the environment from ending the behavior (very similar to the autopoiesis ideas of Maturana and Varela). Reproduction is a way of achieving this, since individual cells are at best just metastable. As evolution continued, these reproducing cells in turn sought to remain by reproducing as organisms. The next step in this perspective is the formation of metaorganisms where we repeat the process at higher levels.
This was perhaps the most overtly teleological and transhumanism as religion talk at the meeting. I found it a fun complement to John Smart's talk at WFS. In some sense it does not justify immortalism or even the deliberate metaorganisation of people since it just describes them as natural outcomes of a sweeping evolutionary trend (natural does, as always, not equal good).

Finally we discussed the theoretical and practical links between religion and transhumanism. There are many areas were we can work together; religion and transhumanism both find the unknown a valuable topic, both are interested in introducing a broader discussion of goals in the bioethics (and other) debates, and in many cases support a tolerant pluralistic society. Overall, the issue of what to tolerate and what not to tolerate took much time. At the same time the reason we have transhumanism in the west but not (say) in Japan might be that the tension between a promethean movement and a not quite sympathetic society makes it easier to form a distinct group; transhumanism might not be necessary in modern China or Japan. I guess the litmus test of this idea will be how transhumanism develops in India.

--
Memories of the future


The TransVision 2004 conference show the evolution of the transhumanist movement. From the tiny gang of people who had met through the internet that started it in a small hotel on the outskirts of Amsterdam 1998 to the 150+ crowd filling the lecture halls of University of Toronto, listening to internationally known experts (or themselves becoming internationally known experts). Transhumanism is growing up and learning how to address the big issues.

TransVision 2003 was to some extent a reaction to the new criticism from Joy, Fukuyama and Kass. The sudden appearance of well-argued (or at least powerfully argued) opposition energized many transhumanists into formulating their own positions and counterarguments. This trend continued this year, when many of the key speakers elaborated on far more detailed answers and rebuttals against the anti-posthumans. The realization that one need not just have the technology but the philosophy to direct it is sinking in.

The keynote addresses by Steve Mann on "Glogging: Sousveillance, Cyborglogs, and the right to self-modification" and Stelarc formed an interestingly balanced pair with the keynotes of Max More and Nick Bostrom. The former were technology- and art-driven, showing how they could drive exploration leading in a transhumanist direction. The latter were philosophy-driven, showing how philosophical themes can move one towards transhumanism.

In all these cases there were a core dynamist perspective: cyborgization led Steve to criticize the surveillance society and try to formulate humanistic technology. Stelarc's radical postmodern view of the body and self might be an all-dissolving alcaest for social projects, but at the same time his search for ways of medical self-expression brings home morphological freedom. Max's talk sketched a set of individualistic virtues for managing self-transformation and change. Nick's talk essentially boiled down to a plea for why exploration of the posthuman realm might be a very good thing. All in all, the goal is an open future, where people are free to explore and change to the furthest extent possible. We are far indeed from many of the centrally managed ideas suggested by Haldane and Wells.

Perhaps the most major theme of the conference (in the sense of reporting real progress) was fixing ageing. Aubrey de Grey's initial speech laid out the plan and showed some recent progress on fixing mitochondrial mutations by moving the genes to the nucleus. That was followed by another talks sketching a possible way of finding enzymes that break down lysozomal gunk using bioremediation as an inspiration:
since graveyards are not overflowing with the substances the body cannot break down, there must be bacteria that can do it. These can be isolated, and the relevant enzymes gathered. Very elegant, but rather early to tell how useful it will be.

As for elegance, Rafal Smigrodzki had an even more exciting approach:
using protofection, a new form of gene therapy, mitochondrial DNA can be replaced. This is promising as a treatment of mitochondrial disease, but of course also against some aspects of ageing. And if the method was as powerful as he implied, it may be a great vehicle for gene therapy too.
Which makes the other approaches more plausible as treatments too, since most seem to rely on the presence of suitable genes rather than small molecules. João Pedro de Magalhães has built a database of genes involved or implied in ageing. The network is tangled, but it is not that impossible to start to deal with using the powerful tools of modern genomics and proteomics.

Transhumanism also has a side of truly wild cosmological and eschatological speculation. I moderated a session on "Big Theory" where Travis Garrett did a nice presentation of why, if we live in a Tegmark level 4 multiverse, most of the "objects" would be superbeing observers.
The omega points outnumber the rocks, so to say. I'm not entirely sure his reasoning holds against equally complex "noise" objects, but it was a wonderful talk. Similarly broad speculation occurred in the uploading session, where Allen Randall expanded the old quantum suicide/immortality thought-experiment to show that only minor (like lottery wins), but not major (like resurrections), miracles could be expected to happen. Also, being "resurrected" as a dreamlike virtual simulation is far more probable than being resurrected in any useful sense of the word. So we better ensure immortality more proactively than just to hope for the best.

The final theme I paid attention to was ethics. I already mentioned the ethical defenses of transhumanism made by Max and Nick. Tihamer (Tee) Toth-Fejel presented a very nice scheme for judging the morality of various enhancements using natural law and a Aristotelian-Thomist approach. Starting out with discovering the essential nature of an entity (and here different readings can of course get different
conclusions: Fukuyama makes an essentialist static reading of human nature while I prefer a dynamist, Mirandolian one - but these different assumptions can at least be made clear!) one looks at how the enhancement can produce good while acting on the entity. Overall, the tools discussed (ends/means/circumstances, seeing existence as better than parasitic opposites, aiming for more being, truth and love) are not that strange, but most people in the bioethics field shun looking at such fearful medieval contraptions. Which is a shame, since they correspond more closely (once applied and freed of terminology) to human experience than the cool lines of modernist abstractions.

Another ethical talk of interest was Mark Walker's talk about genetic enhancements to promote virtue. Again, I got a nice fuzzy Aristotelian feel (and a postmodernist in the audience wondered why we were clinging to such outmoded stuff; but existential freedom aside, it is rather hard to be normative and postmodernist). There are clearly genes that affect moral reasoning, for example through temperament and personality.
Certain aspects of personality such as sociability promote certain virtues - they do not control them, but it is easier to achieve friendship with the right kind of personality, and autonomy by being somewhat out-going. The genes are a foundation, not a program, and not really controlling the eventual development and expression of virtue, but they can perhaps help. A very counterintuitive idea to current bioethics where random genes are somehow seen as a guarantee of freedom, but not very strange to virtue ethics where the important thing is the good habits we set up for ourselves (and Mark did discuss how one could rebel against unwanted "help" from one's parents - just because I have the genes of a nice personality doesn't mean I can't change it).

Conferences are not the real thing, just a place for us to meet, slap backs and exclaim about how big each other's project has grown. But TransVision helps the transhumanist community hold together by showing that there are shared interests between mitochondrial cell biologists and philosophizing physicists. There is one world (modulo Tegmark :-) to explore and improve, and we are all doing it together.

Next year in Caracas!

Anders Sandberg

Robin's update on TV04:

http://www.firepile....ekday/08082004/