Deprenyl retrospective - 1 year use

As many already know, i started deprenyl last year in may. I first started 1-2 drops of liquid selegiline per day, and in june switched to 5 mg tablets per day. I've been taking it all the time (took one 2 x pause for 4 days) for 5 mg and sometimes 10 mg daily, i've tried 15 mg daily few times but i didn't feel any immediate effects.
I stoped deprenyl last saturday, so tomorrow will be 7 days since i'm not using deprenyl.

I have to say deprenyl has been great drug/supplement for me. It helped me do what i always wish, be more effective and motivated for my work and amibitious. Clearly deprenyl has great impact on Dopamine. Before deprenyl, at times i would become euphoric think about all ideas etc but often found myself lazy to work on those ideas. I simply wasn't motivated for sucess, i liked enjoying life more, being out, reading, enjoying simple things in life...but i wanted more and deprenyl gave me that motivation. I started my second company last year (airsealed) besides my other company i own. I was motivated to work, i could work 24h if i wanted to. Jan, Feb, March were pretty boring months this year, bad and cold weather, everyone was feeling low, but i used that time to work on airsealed store and other things. I worked 20h a day for 3 months. Only thing besides work were my trainings.
So dopamine made me workaholic and i kinda liked it. I was all about going forward and making bigger things. I was not into money primarily, i was never into something for money, but for making something myself and succeding.

So last few days i felt a change. One more reason is that spring/summer finally came after cold rainy days. Last few days were sunny and hot. That alone made a change, but also, i feel my dopamine is down. I know deprenyl is irreversible MAO, meaning it's effects on dopamine last for up to 3 weeks, but after 3 days i could feel some change, more so each new day.
I realized i haven't read more than few books for past 12 months. I did read a lot, but only things i needed for work. I didn't enjoy my time, every moment i was obsesed what to do and how to make more progress. I didn't care about love, girls (except sex), simply i didn't care too much about enjoying my life. Even when i enjoyed, it wasn't fully as it was before.

I feel so happy for the past few days, i enjoy simple and stupid things. I didn't realize washing my windows could be enjoyable work, because now they're clean i feel good about it, not caring that my windows have nothing to do with my sucess. I even want to have a girl (not just for sex), and last night when one girl i know from before refused to date me i was sad. Before, i'd just say ah nevermind i'll find another one for sex, but this really hit me.

Was I happy on deprenyl? I'm not sure... Something was missing all the time, and i would often be aggitated by what's missing. I wasn't depressed, i wasn't sad, but i wasn't really happy. I just was...i couldn't distinguish between feelings, hmmmm when i think better deprenyl mostly supressed all kind of feelings, happines, sadnes, sorrow and depression. While i don't like depression i like being sad sometimes, we humans need that. Last few days i felt sadnes (not depression)....and while it might sound strange i felt good about it, i knew i was alive and feeling.

So that's about it. I think i'm gonna enjoy this summer more than last one Not that i don't care about work anymore, but now i see there's no point in working if you don't have time to even spend that money. I'm thinking of still continuing 5mg deprenyl once a week for it's antiaging purposes and mild dopamine boost. Or maybe i'll decide to run tianeptine for 2-3 months for it's neuroplasticity regenration effects. I'll probably consider using deprenyl at 5 mg daily dose in winter again.

Final observation: deprenyl could be a great help for those who are low in dopamine or at least feel that way and need something for additional motivation. Those who are already very motivated and sucess freaks could probably get anxiety from it, as some have reported after taking deprenyl. Of course it's all dose and invidiual dependent and everyone needs to find his own dose. But remember if you stop enjoying your life, then you're overdosing


Maybe this is all just too drastic written, but you get the point


PS
I know this will probably lower my deprenyl sales, but hey i had to share this

Cool post da_sense...
thanks for sharing



Im currently 3 weeks into my 5mg/day routine... When i first took deprenyl (2 months ago) i had all the increases in motivation/drive etc - no ill effects...
Now im not getting any effects at all really - still cant motivate myself to do University work etc (even though im interested in it)
Hasn't helped that 'blank' feeling i usually have etc..
Will persist tho - and see how it pans out.


-zorblart

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

After some time I got used to feeling, i didn't realize i was still motivated, maybe it's happening to you.
As for academics, i lost all desire to study anything except for my work, i simply saw it as a waste of time. Anything that didn't bring immediate effects was a waste of time for me, maybe it's your case? If it is maybe you should lower the dosage. Studiying is a long term process, with long term goals, i'm not sure much dopamine is a right way to push you to study more....but i could be wrong. You could also try 10-15 mg daily for some time, just to see if it works for you, but be carefull if you take other drugs and watch your blood preassure. While i still haven't see any user report of high blood preassure it's better to be safe than sorry.

One thing i forgot to mention. While i was on deprenyl i had to take a noon nap. Not taking it was really bad, i would be sleepy and nervous whole afternoon till about 9pm. Also, I had increased mental capacity. I could work and be 100% focused all night long, no matter how tired i was.
After i stoped i still have a need to take a nap, but last few days i skiped it and i didn't feel bad at all. Regardless of afternoon nap or not, after about midnight i would get sleepy, really sleepy. I can't do much if any mental work after midnight. Partly this is good as i go to sleep earlier but also i can't work much at night as i used to. But since i'll be enjoying my time more this isn't so important.

So one more observation: i haven't notice any IQ boost, but mental capacity is definetely increased on deprenyl.

Beautifully articulated Da Sense

I decided this weekend to give deprenyl another try. I have the liquid form and I worry about not getting consistent dosage. It's seems to me that it's much simple with a pill. I'm 28 years old and I plan to take around 4 drops a day for a few weeks.

On that note, is deprenyl liquid form truly better then the pills? Other then the convenience aspect

I didn't notice any difference between the pills and the liquid when I used to take Deprenyl.
Loved it (motivation, "calm mind", focus), but had to stop because of anxiety (and maybe blood pressure) issues, not sure they were due to dep, but it certainly didn't help. I think the acetylcholine boosters I used were more to blame.
Da_sense, I think you said you didn't like modafinil, however, it seems it also works via a dopamine pathway (according to the latest pubmed stuff). Will you try taking moda again, but w/o deprenyl? I'm taking it with tianeptine (which solved all my anxiety probs) because it gives me some extra drive (I take 2x 100mg when needed only).

I forgot to mention, last june i also started bunch of nootropics, racetams, Ach boosters, herbs, this and that. After few months i was so hyperactive so i quit them all but deprenyl and it was great. So you might want to lower dosage of nootropics while on deprenyl, or remove them completely.

I've never experienced high BP even on 15mg a day, since i already have lower BP i wanted to get higher BP from deprenyl but in my case i didn't.

Few reported increased anxiety with deprenyl and modafinil so i don't recommend taking modafinil at all while on deprenyl. I had very nasty anxiety from it, once i almost had a panic attack which was so strange as i never got even near that point.

I'll try modafinil in about a week again and report how it goes now. I didn't took 5mg weekly dose as i planned, i though to wait 2-3 weeks before starting deprenyl 5 mg weekly again.

I feel great, happy, satisfied with my life, motivation to work is less, but motivation for life and having fun is much improved than before. I'm wondering will this go away after 3 weeks when all effects od deprenyl are gone? But for that reason i'll keep on 5 mg weekly so it should be somewhat balanced dose.

da sense, you are the kind of vendor that many others should be like. I never see you knock anyone else let alone babble about heavy metals. You give us both sides of the picture, not just hype to boost sales. Here you are telling us about some of the downsides of something you sell. It isn't the first time you've done this

I don't think the racetams were making you hyper. Don't throw out the whole basket because one or two things in it were wrong for you. That's the trouble with starting a lot of new substances at once. If it doesn't work, you don't know which one was the culprit.

Thanks

I'm not sure was it racetams, ach boosters, alcar and what not, or combo of all of them at once, but it was simply too much for me to handle at that time. I recently resumed alcar and piracetam at lower doses and it worked fine (thou i felt nothing from piracetam at 1gr daily, i guess dose should be larger).

One more update, i'm definetely not sleepy in the afternoon as with deprenyl but i continue to try to sleep, i don't get restfull sleep at all, i wake up in worse condition than ever. This was same before deprenyl. I'll cut out my afternoon nap from now on.

Heavy metal tests are so cheap ($80 for a USP -- and when I buy 25kg of Aniracetam for $2050, what's an extra $80? It won't affect the cost of the finished product except for a few pennies -- and we also have a "special law" in California you should know about, kid -- it's called Proposition 65 -- it's no wonder we are smarter here in California).

What Is Proposition 65?

Proposition 65 was passed nearly 10 years ago by the voters in California and established California-only allowable levels of daily ingestion of four heavy metals:

Arsenic: 10 micrograms
Cadmium: 4.1 micrograms
Lead: 0.5 micrograms
Mercury: .3 micrograms


Strangely enough, the amounts above are less than what occurs naturally in numerous fruits, vegetables and water. The Proposition 65 standards are so tough that the following natural products are in violation of Prop 65:

Yams, turnips, apples, tomatoes, artichokes, carrots, cucumbers, green beans, lettuce, spinach, potatoes, corn and many, many more fruits and vegetables.

Example: Carrots contain 12.80 micrograms of arsenic in a one cup serving, higher than allowed under Prop 65. Green Beans contain 288.75 micrograms of lead in a one cup serving, 288 times the allowable limit!!

Even culinary water supplies violate Prop 65.

So, the California state legislature exempted culinary water, and fruits and vegetables grown in California, from this proposition.

Unfortunately herbal products were not exempted!!

So if one of my customers goes to his or her primary care physician or psychiatrist and requests a test for heavy metals, and "somehow" they come up with blood levels of lead or something, and even if they "think" its from my product, they could file a lawsuit and I might need the lab that performed the test to provide evidence (through record retention and lot numbers) to prove the products I sell intended for human consumption are free of the heavy metals in question.

That one test alone could save me tons of money from lawyers' bills and lost time from litigation.

So independent testing of imported products from Chinese chemical factories known to produce products containing levels of lead above the stated limit is also at least a simple protective measure.

I also don't see the reason not to perform an USP heavy metal assay to ensure neither I, nor my customers have to worry about taking so called "Smart Drugs" that in fact might lower their IQ. I'll cite research findings here to support my reasoning. You seem to be unfamiliar with conventional forms of argumentation. However, I shouldn't try to educate you too much as destroying arguments based on ignorance is one of my true pleasures. Thank you, xanadu, for giving me this opportunity; please stick around.

1. Blood levels of lead below the stated "safe" limit are correlated with lower IQ.

http://content.nejm....act/348/16/1517

Volume 348:1517-1526  April 17, 2003  Number 16
Intellectual Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 µg per Deciliter


Richard L. Canfield, Ph.D., Charles R. Henderson, Jr., M.A., Deborah A. Cory-Slechta, Ph.D., Christopher Cox, Ph.D., Todd A. Jusko, B.S., and Bruce P. Lanphear, M.D., M.P.H.
Background Despite dramatic declines in children's blood lead concentrations and a lowering of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's level of concern to 10 µg per deciliter (0.483 µmol per liter), little is known about children's neurobehavioral functioning at lead concentrations below this level.

Methods We measured blood lead concentrations in 172 children at 6, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, and 60 months of age and administered the Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scale at the ages of 3 and 5 years. The relation between IQ and blood lead concentration was estimated with the use of linear and nonlinear mixed models, with adjustment for maternal IQ, quality of the home environment, and other potential confounders.

Results The blood lead concentration was inversely and significantly associated with IQ. In the linear model, each increase of 10 µg per deciliter in the lifetime average blood ead concentration was associated with a 4.6-point decrease in IQ (P=0.004), whereas for the subsample of 101 children whose maximal lead concentrations remained below 10 µg per deciliter, the change in IQ associated with a given change in lead concentration was greater. When estimated in a nonlinear model with the full sample, IQ declined by 7.4 points as lifetime average blood lead concentrations increased from 1 to 10 µg per deciliter.

Conclusions Blood lead concentrations, even those below 10 µg per deciliter, are inversely associated with children's IQ scores at three and five years of age, and associated declines in IQ are greater at these concentrations than at higher concentrations. These findings suggest that more U.S. children may be adversely affected by environmental lead than previously estimated.]

Source Information

From the Division of Nutritional Sciences (R.L.C.) and the Department of Human Development (C.R.H.), College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.; the Departments of Environmental Medicine (D.A.C.-S.) and Biostatistics and Computational Biology (C.C.), University of Rochester School of Medicine, Rochester, N.Y.; the Division of Epidemiology, Statistics, and Prevention, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, National Institutes of Health, Department of Health and Human Services, Bethesda, Md. (C.C.); the Department of Epidemiology, School of Public Health and Community Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle (T.A.J.); and Cincinnati Children's Environmental Health Center, Children's Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati (B.P.L.).

Address reprint requests to Dr. Canfield at the Division of Nutritional Sciences, College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, or at rlc5@cornell.edu.

2. Heavy metal contamination has also been found in spices imported from India:

http://pediatrics.aa...ract/116/2/e314

Childhood Lead Poisoning in 2 Families Associated With Spices Used in Food Preparation
Alan D. Woolf, MD, MPH*,, and Nicholas T. Woolf||

* Pediatric Environmental Health Subspecialty Unit, Boston, Massachusetts
Division of General Pediatrics, Children's Hospital, Boston, Massachusetts
Department of Pediatrics, Harvard Medical School, Boston, Massachusetts
|| Lexington Christian Academy, Lexington, Massachusetts

Although most cases of childhood lead poisoning are caused by contaminated paint and dust in older homes, a variety of unusual sources of lead exposure are occasionally found. We report here 2 families whose children were poisoned by lead-contaminated spices that were purchased in foreign countries, brought to the United States, and then used in the preparation of the family’s food. Six children (2–17 years old) in a family from the Republic of Georgia were poisoned by swanuri marili (lead content: 100 and 2040 mg/kg in separately sampled products) and kharchos suneli (zafron) lead content: 23 100 mg/kg) purchased from a street vendor in Tbilisi, Georgia. The second family had purchased a mixture of spices called kozhambu (lead content: 310 mg/kg) while traveling in India. Both the parents and their 2-year-old child subsequently suffered lead poisoning. The young children in both families required short-term chelation to bring their blood lead levels down to a safer range. Clinicians should be vigilant for all sources of lead contamination, including spices, when whole families are found to have elevated blood lead levels despite a confirmed lead-safe home environment. Families traveling abroad should be aware of the potential health risks associated with the purchase and use of spices that have not been tested for purity.

3. In 1998 the California Department of Health reported in a letter published in the New England Journal of Medicine that 32% of Asian patent medicines sold in that state contained undeclared pharmaceuticals or heavy metals, including ephedrine ( a stimulant), chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine), methyltestosterone (an anabolic steroid), phenacetin (a pain killer), lead, mercury, and arsenic (N Engl J Med. 1998. 339. 847).

4. A study in which 500 Asian patent medicines were screened for the presence of heavy metals and 134 drugs found that 10% were contaminated (Bull Environ Contam Toxicol. 2000. 65. 112-119).

5. A study in which all unique Ayurvedic herbal medicine products were purchased from all stores within 20 miles of Boston City Hall found that 14 of 70 products (20%) contained heavy metals and that if taken as recommended by the manufacturer, each of these 14 products could result in heavy metal intakes above published regulatory standards (JAMA. 2004. 292. 2868-2873).

6. Adulteration of imported Chinese dietary supplements sold in Japan is responsible for 622 cases of illness, 148 hospitalizations, and 3 deaths (Report of the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labor, and Welfare. September 20, 2002).

Now that is just evidence to support the justification for performing a cheap test to ensure my customer's safety. We have little data that suggests it is safe to be ingesting compounds imported from China and/or India in an indiscriminate fashion considering the evidence that might suggest some of these imports might have heavy metal contamination or who knows what else?

I try my best to avoid gambling with taking compounds that might endanger my IQ or quality of life - and I try my best to also avoid selling such substances. I sure do not want a microorganism, ephedrine (a stimulant), chlorpheniramine (an antihistamine), methyltestosterone (an anabolic steroid), or phenacetin (a pain killer) or who knows what else in there...so a heavy metal test is just the first step in ensuring a non IQ damaging product.

To ensure a product is high in purity, an HPLC assay is then called for. The bottom line is that independent testing is relatively cheap, and it ensures my customers get what they pay for. I take these products as well, so I also care about their quality (and my IQ).

I am not the only one around here concerned about safety, and your argument now has been thoroughly destroyed. You may continue, but no one here takes you seriously anymore -- and they have not for quite a while.

Peace out.

P.S. Consumerlab.com's most recent independent testing of green tea extracts and other "cancer prevention" supplements found that out of 22 products, four or them 4/22, or about 18% were contaminated with lead or were otherwise unable to meet their label claim. And these are NOT Asian patent medicines, kid.

http://www.consumerl...ne_selenium.asp

Also of interest may be the following page I found on campus at my school:

Edited by nootropikamil, 23 May 2006 - 12:15 AM.

You may continue, but no one here takes you seriously anymore -- and they have not for quite a while. 

Ashton Kutcher just showed up....his response: "Burn!"

Bad mood today, Adam?

Nah, I just saw xandau cheer-leading on behalf of LM for way too long. You did at first, but then you figured out you'd been duped too. Like us all.

Forming a scientific argument is something I can do with ease, so it is generally an indication of me being in a good mood. Especially with such simple logic as this and volumes of scientific evidence to support my conclusion.

Peace out.

I even want to have a girl (not just for sex), and last night when one girl i know from before refused to date me i was sad. Before, i'd just say ah nevermind i'll find another one for sex, but this really hit me.

Me too. I am looking for a new girlfriend right now. As a youth (and into my early twenties) it seems the most important aspect of my relationships was the sex element. Now I don't find sex (besides the act itself) as gratifying anymore, and that might be due to many different factors. I think I have a higher self esteem than I used to, so I am not really attracted to these super naive freshman types that prance around my school. Sure, I'll look at them, and they look real real sweet, but I don't seeing it going very far. Sex is, after all, an end in itself.

Of the various pleasure that man can offer himself, the greatest is pride - the pleasure he takes in his own achievements and in the creation of his own character. The pleasure he takes in the character and achievements of another being is that of admiration. The highest expression of these two responses - pride and admiration - is romantic love. Its celebration is sex.

It is in this sphere above all - in a man's romantic-sexual responses - that his view of himself and of existence stands eloquently revealed. A man falls in love with an sexually desires the person who reflects his own deepest values.
There are two crucial respects in which a man's romantic sexual responses are psychologically revealing : in his choice of partner - and in the meaning, to him, of the sexual act.

You mean all that was for my benefit? Gee whiz.

"I am not the only one around here concerned about safety, and your argument now has been thoroughly destroyed"

The argument in which you claimed I said that the earth is flat? Or that one should not constantly toss around scare talk?

"I just saw xandau cheer-leading on behalf of LM for way too long."

When was that? Certainly not in the past month, if ever. Not sure I ever cheered for him. You are reaching, Adam. You're doing fine, my only point was why do we have to have every thread end up talking about lead? If you find some in UN's or da sense's products, I'm sure you'll let us know.

You mean all that was for my benefit? Gee whiz.

"I am not the only one around here concerned about safety, and your argument now has been thoroughly destroyed"

The argument in which you claimed I said that the earth is flat? Or that one should not constantly toss around scare talk?

"I just saw xandau cheer-leading on behalf of LM for way too long."

When was that? Certainly not in the past month, if ever. Not sure I ever cheered for him. You are reaching, Adam. You're doing fine, my only point was why do we have to have every thread end up talking about lead? If you find some in UN's or da sense's products, I'm sure you'll let us know.

Well, at worst I figure, you can't form a scientific argument, so I do in reply so others might also benefit as well. You are not the only one who isn't scientific around here, that's for sure. You talk about hype and then talk about stuff like effectiveness of Piracetam? Show me the data that would suggest Piracetam might make a *significant* improvement in an otherwise healthy subject's memory function and you'll make all our days. You are the pot calling the kettle black, kid.

I am not going to test anyone else's products for heavy metals, or for anything else for that matter, I have absolutely no incentive to. Individuals are free to purchase their dietary supplement products from whatever company they please. At this point, I would suggest folks to buy Relentless's nootropics because he can give higher assurances of quality than I currently can on my nootropic type supplements. Airsealed has a modafinil product that independently assayed out to 99.1% purity, and that is impressive as well.

I reply to something called demand. My customers won't buy unless I prove my products are high in purity and safe. Why do you think Pete has a virtual monopoly on sales of nootropics right now? It is not a coincidence that smart people are smart enough to figure out the importance of avoiding contaminants (like, for example, lead) when seeking improvements in cognitive performance or general health. It is rather intuitive for us, the importance of purity. We all hope you get the clue. Sooner rather than later, as this repetition is getting rather annoying for the more...intelligent readers.

Let's get back to the topic. I am off to the gym. Peace out.

da sense, you are the kind of vendor that many others should be like. I never see you knock anyone else let alone babble about heavy metals. You give us both sides of the picture, not just hype to boost sales. Here you are telling us about some of the downsides of something you sell. It isn't the first time you've done this

xanadu: please do not incorporate personal attacks into your agenda unless you plan go public and put your credibility on the line. Just because you do not understand an argument, don't be afraid of admitting it. This was an otherwise perfectly productive topic before you spoiled it. Peace.

Adam,
xanadu has offered his personal view on my company and thoughts on piracetam & deprenyl. Then you came up with completely irrelevant post about heavy metals etc. What it has to do with deprenyl thread?
Don't attack others for something you're doing yourself.
I'm aware of your concern for safety etc, but really it has nothing to do with deprenyl thread. You mention heavy metals in every possible thread, be it relevant or not.
This is nothing personal, just think about relevancy of thread.


As for Modafinil, i've used 200mg tablet 2 days ago and about 300mg powder yesterday. No anxiety at all. I overally still didn't like modafinil, it gives me alertnes but i feel like on drugs. Not a totally clean feeling. I'm glad i don't get anxiety from it so i might use it sometimes.
So i'd warn everyone using deprenyl to be carefull with modafinil.

Xanadu mentioned heavy metals FIRST in this topic, Dzevad -- get your facts straight, dude.

Xanadu has made personal attacks on me at this forum when it was totally uncalled for, ouright false, and he had no absolutely zero evidence to support his accusation. Not to mention he was 100% incorrect about a critical issue, and he continued to sew dissent here after we all knew of Edward's antics.

Here are some examples of xanadu's personal attacks on me (just from this forum):

I don't know any facts in this case and am saddened that someone of LM's stature would be forced to leave or involuntarily stripped of his rank. I do know, as many others of us know, that there is a malicious troll on this board. He uses many many names and creates a new one almost every week. He has attacked me and others under a number of those names. I would not be at all surprised if all of them were this adam character who appears to be tradewinds today. He has carried out his mission of sowing dissention and disruption on imminst. Can't anyone stop him?

http://www.imminst.o...9&t=9472&st=100

Looks like the matter has been settled. LM has proven his identity and that he has an MD. Several members have attested to the fact they met him in real life at the place he says he works. He has offered so fax his credentials and people have taken him up on it. What is left to discuss? Only thing remaining is a bunch of newly registered trolls, obvioulsy Adam himself. I believe he is the troll who has been infesting this site with misinformation and malice for some time. He has attacked me among others.

I say restore LM to his former status posthaste, that is if he is still willing to stay. Please stay on, LM, you are a valuable member and source of info. If you won't take back your advisor status, at least post from time to time though I hope to see you here as much as before. Don't let this incident sour you on everything else. Adam is apparently very crafty in the ways of manipulation and we can't blame the people he confused.

Just my 2 cents worth.

http://www.imminst.o...9&t=9472&st=220

I'm kinda shocked that LM is still having to defend himself against these accusations after they have basicly been put to rest. He's proven his identity and his MD, even Adam seems to admit that. The rest is childish bickering. I sure would not want to be a moderator on this site after seeing what some of them have to go through. If there were questions about his credentials, that should have been settled before he was given his position, not brought up again later. Is he going to have to defend himself against the same or similar charges again and again indefinately? This is nothing but harrassment. Leadership should declare it ended and ask LM to take back his advisor role.

After all of that, I wouldn't be surprised if he would like to continue to portray me in a negative fashion.

I would have thought after all of that cheer leading on behalf of LM, he would of realized his credibility is nil.

It is ironic that Edward promoted the mistruth that I create several aliases here, when in fact that is his only method of presentation.

Peace.

xanadu just mentioned heavy metals as "btw this and that", he didn't want discussion on that matter, but you came up with irrelevant post to heavy metals, and now you still continue with personal fight in deprenyl thread.
if you have problems with xanadu open new thread (not in health section) but stop fighting people in unrelated threads

If anyone wants to reply to a post in this thread that is unrelated to deprenyl use, do so in another thread.

My experience with deprenyl was a fairly dramatic increase in motivation to achieve any goals that I set for myself. I also experienced some trouble sleeping during this period of effectiveness, which I was willing to endure.

After some time (6-8 weeks perhaps), I noticed that I had seemingly returned to baseline as far as motivation. At the same time, my sleeping had also returned to normal. I attributed this to receptor desensitization and the all-powerful ability of the brain to achieve homeostasis. I discontinued deprenyl some time later.

Funk
Have you noticed any change after you discontinued deprenyl? Immediately or after 2-3 weeks?

If anyone wants to reply to a post in this thread that is unrelated to deprenyl use, do so in another thread.

As long as folks can stick to what's relevant, we can stay on topic. There are some conflicts of interest that I felt should be pointed out. I don't take deprenyl and won't considering the evidence that it might be unsafe:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

All:

I had run across SOD and increasing it a while back and.... I've forgotten which ones, but if you google SOD you'll pop up the names of some familiar herbs and possibly a nootropic as well

The question is whether it's a good thing to increase SOD. Antioxidant enzymes are NEGATIVELY correlated with species max LS (1,2); expressing extra SOD without extra CAT could actually INCREASE free radical stress by converting minimally-toxic superoxide into more-toxic hydrogen peroxide without the capacity to break it further down to water; SOD knockouts fail to show accelerated mortality except under artificially-indduced high oxidative stress; Down's syndrome is characterized by high SOD activity; etc.

"Superoxide dismutase mimetics [EUK-134 or EUK-8] elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans" despite the fact that they protect against hihg-level oxidative stress and prevent brain damage after a stroke or induced seizure (3).

Most notably, "Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life span in mice" (4), despite the fact that increased SOD in this model also leads to increased CAT.

Deprenyl is often cited as a counterexample, but it really isn't. Yes, Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality. Flat ad hominem: Knoll had the patent on the stuff. See the desperate attempts to reconcile the data between different studies on pp. 3-8, esp. the lifespan discussions on pp 7-8, of (1). Much of this info (but without, alas, the unpublished stuff sumarized in (1)) is put in a tabular form in (2), which makes the fundamental lack of anything like a logical pattern in the results clear. IMO, this shows pretty clearly that even if you believe there's something to it as a life-extension drug, there is just no way that one can rationally USE it as such at this time as there is no basis upon which to reasonably extrapolate a dose which can be expected to consistently extend even AV'G LS in humans.

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:

http://groups.google.....4A@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....BC@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....84@aimnet.com

http://bmj.com/cgi/c...ll/317/7153/252
http://bmj.com/cgi/c...l/316/7139/1191
http://groups.google...m&output=gplain

(The first 3 largely go over the same ground, albeit from slightly
different angles; the others cover newer material).

A recent editorial comment on the study from which the last post is
abstracted:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)." The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

It doesn't appear to give any reliable benefits in animal systems; it seems to kill the folks it's designed to TREAT; I just do not see how the risk:benefit calculation can be fudged to make it come out in favor of use by young, healthy people.

-Michael

1. Kitani K, Minami C, Isobe K, Maehara K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Why (--)deprenyl prolongs survivals of experimental animals: increase of anti-oxidant enzymes in brain and other body tissues as well as mobilization of various humoral factors may lead to systemic anti-aging effects.
Mech Ageing Dev. 2002 Apr 30;123(8):1087-100. Review.
PMID: 12044958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Kitani K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Assessing the effects of deprenyl on longevity and antioxidant defenses in
different animal models.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1998 Nov 20;854:291-306. Review.
PMID: 9928438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Keaney M, Matthijssens F, Sharpe M, Vanfleteren J, Gems D.
Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but
do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jul 15;37(2):239-50.
PMID: 15203195 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Huang TT, Carlson EJ, Gillespie AM, Shi Y, Epstein CJ.
Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life
span in mice.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2000 Jan;55(1):B5-9.
PMID: 10719757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Peace.

Adam, I never attacked you at any time. I pointed out a long time back that you were trolling under new names but everyone knew that. Not an attack, just an observation. And what has dredging up LM to do with this conversation?

Deprenyl sounds somewhat like alcar in that it gives motivation and energy but at the expense of sleeping less soundly. For some people it's no doubt a very good thing and they have no problems. For me, sleeping is important and I tend to stay away from things that are stimulating. Is deprenyl like pyritinol?

Is deprenyl like pyritinol?

no, it is a MAO B inhibitor. Pyritinol acts in a completely different way on a completely different system

While i used to sleep less on deprenyl, i can say that it was better sleep. I know have hard time waking up, with almost headache like feeling. But not everyone reacts the same.

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl.

I'm sure Emsam (selegiline patch) was approved by FDA just because patchs looks nice on body
WRONG!
http://www.priory.co.../selegiline.htm
"The results suggest that it is a safe and effective treatment for children with ADHD and a coexisting tic disorder."

http://www.psychiatr...om/p011040.html

http://www.trdrp.org...sp?grant_id=509
"Conclusions: Selegiline delivered via a transdermal system appeared to be well-tolerated when used for a period of 5 weeks by cigarette smokers. Side effects were relatively few and predominantly mild in nature as reported by participants."

http://www.counselor...NIDAFeature.htm
"If continued safety and efficacy are shown in future trials, selegiline could become the first pharmaceutical product approved for use in the treatment of cocaine addiction."

http://www.cnsspectr...x?articleid=400
"STS (selegiline transdermal system) represents a new generation of MAOI that seems to have safety advantages over the older MAOIs. Available evidence shows that 6 mg/24 hours of STS is effective in MDD and can be safely taken without dietary modifications."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum
"The drug also protected the vascular endothelium from the toxic effects of amyloid-beta peptide. These novel actions of selegiline may protect neurons from ischemic or oxidative damage and suggest new therapeutic applications for L-deprenyl in vascular and neurodegenerative diseases."

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum
"Deprenyl potentiates the effect of dopamine, it has antioxidant activity and prevents the toxicity of the dopaminergic, the noradrenergic and cholinergic neurotoxins after pre-treatment."
"Our findings support the view that 100, or even 1000 times lower dose of (-)-deprenyl can be offered in human therapy to protect, or slow down neuronal degeneration, than it is presently used."

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)." The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

"L-deprenyl (Selegiline) used in the treatment of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease also enhances longevity. Oxidized low density lipoprotein promotes atherosclerosis and is toxic to both vascular and neural tissue. The reported association between vascular dysfunction and neurodegenerative diseases prompted us to investigate the effect of l-deprenyl, a MAO-B inhibitor, on low density lipoprotein (LDL) oxidation. LDL was isolated from freshly collected blood and the kinetics of copper induced oxidation of LDL was monitored continuously by spectrophotometry. Oral administration (10 mg) or in vitro (2.8 to 84 microM) addition of l-deprenyl inhibited oxidation of LDL isolated from healthy men and post-menopausal women. This is the first report demonstrating that the antioxidant action of l-deprenyl may be antiatherogenic and cardioprotective. Such an action could contribute to reported extension of life span associated with long-term administration of the drug. In conjunction with inhibition of LDL oxidation, l-deprenyl is unique in that it demonstrates protective effects on both vascular and neuronal tissue. Prophylactic use of low doses of l-deprenyl may accord protection against vascular and neurodegenerative diseases associated with aging."

Well at least I am pleased you have brought a more scientific presentation to support your argument that the use of Deprenyl is...well, it appears for now...useful for ADD (which I have never argued against, except it seems that Deprenyl is not substantiated for use with ADD with nearly the weight of the amphetamines -- and I highly doubt deprenyl has clinical effect on par with dextroamphetamine or Adderall). No medical doctors I have heard of take Knoll's findings seriously. No MDs that I have heard of would in their right mind actually prescribe deprenyl to extend human lifespan. That is just Internet sales hype according to the scientific data.

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

This study didn't actually show a maximum LS extension. The supplemented animals as a cohort lived no longer than the controls; there was one outlier female who lived quite exceptionally long. Because the standard at the time was for animals were housed in group cages, it is impossible to be absolutely sure of the age of any particular organism, and actually possible that it was weeks or even months younger than its putative cohorts; and, IAC, it may have had exceptional genetics because of mutation or what have you.

The point is that one animal does not a meaningful result make. For exactly this reason, "maximum lifespan" is not operationally defined by serious biogerontologists today as "the longest-lived single animal in the cohort," but as "the average LS of the longest-lived decile of the cohort. By this measure, as by av'g LS or a visual inspection of the survival curves, selenium did nothing for the animals once you remove the outlier -- and in fact increased carcinogenesis.

This is parallel to observations in other studies, tho' I have no references at my fingertips.

No supplement has ever shown a demonstrable increase in maximum LS in normal, healthy, well-cared-for organisms -- ie, relative to a control group with mean & max LS of >900 & 1200 days, respectively, in mice. By contrast, this is routinely achieved in modern CR studies.

For the moment, supplements can be a minor insurance policy, and there are a couple of exotics that might be worth the experiment (R(+)-LA, benfotiamine, pyridoxamine (if you can get it clean -- and I'm not aware of any such source at the moment), but they simply cannot be justified on an evidence-based, risk: benefit analysis. CR and the MPrize are the only reasonable investments for radical life extension.

-Michael


1: Schroeder HA, Mitchener M.
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=5124041
J Nutr. 1971 Nov;101(11):1531-40. No abstract available.
PMID: 5124041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm....st_uids=5124041

Back to the earlier conclusion:

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)."The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

Adam
I pretty much stand behind most things i say. I might not be correct all the time, but often I am. I just hate browsing and spending time on searching studies just to prove something
Deprenyl is useful for numerous things. Parkinson, depression, ADD and other non approved uses. Personally i find it extremely useful though i'm in neither of above groups. I'm positive Emsam will soon become one of more popular antidepressive drugs due to it's great antidepressive effcets and very low side effects.

I never claimed deprenyl extends life, it's hard to prove anyway. You keep trashing deprenyl and only facts you bring up against it is that it hasn't been proved (yet) that it extends life and some studies showing increased mortality in old Parkinson patients receiving levodopa and deprenyl.

I'm not clear why you put up that last url in your post?
http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29
I can't see the comments, only the original abstract?

btw:
http://www.neurology...ract/55/12/1785
"CONCLUSIONS: Subjects with PD had twice the rate of mortality relative to age- and sex-matched comparators. However, those subjects who received selegiline at any time in combination with co-careldopa or co-beneldopa showed no significant difference in mortality compared with the comparators. Monotherapy with levodopa was associated with the highest mortality."

Don't forget that you refer to somewhat old talk, from 2001. Since then there were other studies on selegiline, specifically emsam as antidepressant for both young and old.