• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Questions from a Newbie


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 mrmandrake

  • Guest
  • 32 posts
  • -0

Posted 07 September 2006 - 04:44 AM


Hello,

This is my first post here so sorry for any stupid questions, I've tried to read as many posts as I could to avoid those questions. I am a computer engineer pursuing my MBA with night classes and am looking into nootropics. I had a couple of questions:

1. I want to start trying Piracetam, where do people from this forum usually purchase it? I don't want to start ingesting things I buy online unless it's from a quality place that you guys trust.

2. What dosage of Piracetam do people usually take? I read that 2-12 800mg pills daily. Do you really need that much to feel an effect?

3. Do people who take Piracetam usually take Choline also?

4. Am I right that Piracetam is not a stimulant and so it does NOT keep you awake, just makes you more efficient while you are awake? What I really want to know is if Piracetam helps you stay awake.

5. I read a lot about Modafinil here also. How are you guys getting it if it's only prescribed for narcolypsy?

Thanks for any help. If you need to PM me in order to answer that is fine also.

#2 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 07 September 2006 - 05:40 AM

Hello,

This is my first post here so sorry for any stupid questions, I've tried to read as many posts as I could to avoid those questions.  I am a computer engineer pursuing my MBA with night classes and am looking into nootropics.  I had a couple of questions:

1.  I want to start trying Piracetam, where do people from this forum usually purchase it?  I don't want to start ingesting things I buy online unless it's from a quality place that you guys trust.

2.  What dosage of Piracetam do people usually take?  I read that 2-12 800mg pills daily.  Do you really need that much to feel an effect?

3.  Do people who take Piracetam usually take Choline also?

4.  Am I right that Piracetam is not a stimulant and so it does NOT keep you awake, just makes you more efficient while you are awake?  What I really want to know is if Piracetam helps you stay awake.

5.  I read a lot about Modafinil here also.  How are you guys getting it if it's only prescribed for narcolypsy?

Thanks for any help.  If you need to PM me in order to answer that is fine also.


You asked about supplement quality, so you are going to get a quick rant. Don't worry, this just takes me a minute to copy/paste from older rants of mine. I was banned once for ranting about heavy metals to excess...

About 20% of supplements on the US market aren't legit. Moreover, many are contaminated and contain harmful impurities; lead and cadmium are commonly found in dietary supplement products available at your local health food store.

Why is lead dangerous?

http://www.fda.gov/f...8/198_lead.html

The Risks of Lead

Lead disrupts the functioning of almost every brain neurotransmitter, says David Bellinger, Ph.D., a psychologist and epidemiologist at Children's Hospital in Boston. Neurotransmitters are chemical messengers between the body's nerve cells. The messenger calcium, for example, is essential to nerve impulse transmission, heart activity, and blood clotting, but if it doesn't work right, affected systems may also be askew.

"Lead fits into binding sites that calcium should," Bellinger says, "so it can disturb cellular processes that depend on calcium. But there's no unifying theory that explains in detail what lead does to the central nervous system, which is where lead typically affects children."

Bellinger estimates that each 10 mcg/dL increase in blood lead lowers a child's IQ about 1 to 3 points.

"Evidence is less clear," he says, "on whether mild blood lead elevations in pregnancy cause permanent effects on the fetus. Studies have tended not to find that early developmental delays related to minor fetal exposure carry through to school age, when IQ is measured." Studying middle- and upper-middle-class children exposed before birth to mild lead levels, Bellinger and colleagues found delays in early sensory-motor development, such as grasping objects, but did not find such effects by school age.

However, he adds, "When lead exposure in the uterus is quite high, the impact can be devastating on the fetus, causing serious neurological problems."

High lead exposures can cause a baby to have low birth weight or be born prematurely, or can result in miscarriage or stillbirth.

"Symptoms of lead poisoning can be highly variable depending, in part, on the age of the child, the amount of lead to which the child is exposed, and how long the exposure goes on," says pediatrician Randolph Wykoff, M.D., FDA associate commissioner for operations. Children exposed to lead may have no symptoms, he says, or may report sometimes vague symptoms, including headache, irritability or abdominal pain.

While a child's chronic exposure to relatively low lead levels may result in learning or behavioral problems, Wykoff says that "higher levels of exposure can be associated with anemia and changes in kidney function, as well as significant changes in the nervous system that may, at extreme exposures, include seizures, coma and death."

In adults, lead poisoning can contribute to high blood pressure and damage to the reproductive organs. Severe lead poisoning can cause subtle loss of recently acquired skills, listlessness, bizarre behavior, incoordination, vomiting, altered consciousness, and--as with children--seizures, coma and death. Poisoning without severe brain effects can cause lethargy, appetite loss, sporadic vomiting, abdominal pain, and constipation.

By the time symptoms appear, damage is often already irreversible.

"The most important thing for families to do," says Baltimore's Davoli, "is to learn what steps they can take to prevent lead poisoning. We don't want to get to treatment. And they should take their children to the doctor regularly for checkups and, if the children are at risk, get blood lead tests done."

Critical to prevention is focusing on the important lead sources. FDA's Rosenthal says, "Dealing with sources of lead means recognizing them in your family's environment, knowing which ones contribute significant exposures, and eliminating or avoiding those exposures."


Lead is a commonly found contaminant that can drasically lower human IQ; even at low enough doses where it is considered "safe" (at or equal 10 µg per deciliter in blood). It's not like the other heavy metals are safe...they all can kill you, cause cancer, damage your health in other ways. There are other contaminants found in dietary supplements too...

Volume 348:1517-1526  April 17, 2003  Number 16
Intellectual Impairment in Children with Blood Lead Concentrations below 10 µg per Deciliter

Richard L. Canfield, Ph.D., Charles R. Henderson, Jr., M.A., Deborah A. Cory-Slechta, Ph.D., Christopher Cox, Ph.D., Todd A. Jusko, B.S., and Bruce P. Lanphear, M.D., M.P.H.
Background Despite dramatic declines in children's blood lead concentrations and a lowering of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's level of concern to 10 µg per deciliter (0.483 µmol per liter), little is known about children's neurobehavioral functioning at lead concentrations below this level.

Methods We measured blood lead concentrations in 172 children at 6, 12, 18, 24, 36, 48, and 60 months of age and administered the Stanford–Binet Intelligence Scale at the ages of 3 and 5 years. The relation between IQ and blood lead concentration was estimated with the use of linear and nonlinear mixed models, with adjustment for maternal IQ, quality of the home environment, and other potential confounders.

Results The blood lead concentration was inversely and significantly associated with IQ. In the linear model, each increase of 10 µg per deciliter in the lifetime average blood lead concentration was associated with a 4.6-point decrease in IQ (P=0.004), whereas for the subsample of 101 children whose maximal lead concentrations remained below 10 µg per deciliter, the change in IQ associated with a given change in lead concentration was greater. When estimated in a nonlinear model with the full sample, IQ declined by 7.4 points as lifetime average blood lead concentrations increased from 1 to 10 µg per deciliter.

Conclusions Blood lead concentrations, even those below 10 µg per deciliter, are inversely associated with children's IQ scores at three and five years of age, and associated declines in IQ are greater at these concentrations than at higher concentrations. These findings suggest that more U.S. children may be adversely affected by environmental lead than previously estimated.


Source Information

From the Division of Nutritional Sciences (R.L.C.) and the Department of Human Development (C.R.H.), College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, N.Y.; the Departments of Environmental Medicine (D.A.C.-S.) and Biostatistics and Computational Biology (C.C.), University of Rochester School of Medicine, Rochester, N.Y.; the Division of Epidemiology, Statistics, and Prevention, National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, National Institutes of Health, Department of Health and Human Services, Bethesda, Md. (C.C.); the Department of Epidemiology, School of Public Health and Community Medicine, University of Washington, Seattle (T.A.J.); and Cincinnati Children's Environmental Health Center, Children's Hospital Medical Center, Cincinnati (B.P.L.).

Address reprint requests to Dr. Canfield at the Division of Nutritional Sciences, College of Human Ecology, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, or at rlc5@cornell.edu.


http://www.consumerl...lts/ginseng.asp

Specific types of ginseng may be helpful in diabetes control, the prevention of respiratory infections, sexual enhancement and other uses. But ConsumerLab.com has found problems in many ginseng supplements over the years.  In this newest Review, six products failed to pass testing due to lead contamination, lack of ingredient, or inadequate labeling. One product had less than 10% of its claimed amount of ginsenosides despite its "EXTRA STRENGTH" label.  A major store brand product was contaminated with lead.

Seven products passed the testing, along with four products tested through ConsumerLab.com's certification program. And two products similar to products that passed are identified. Testing focused on Asian ginseng (Panax ginseng) (also called Korean or Chinese ginseng) and American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius).

Included in the report are Ginsana (Alan James Group, LLC), Imperial Elixir (GINCO International), Kinetana (Biogenesis Nutraceuticals, Inc), Royal King (Herba Natural Products Inc.), Hsu's Root to Health (Ginseng Enterprises, Inc.), Hi-Ener-G (Windmill™ Health Products) as well as products from by CVS Pharmacy, Paradise Herbs, Pharmanex, Puritan's Pride, Spring Valley, Vitamin World, Walgreens, Sundown, Swanson, ActionLabs, and TruNature.


Green tea and Selenium, and Lycopene supplements sold in the US at health food stores also can't match their label claim or are otherwise contaminated as well:
http://www.consumerl...ne_selenium.asp

Certain foods and nutrients are associated with a reduced risk of cancer. Many of these are anti-oxidants, scavenging free radicals that can otherwise damage cells. Supplements containing three popular ingredients — green tea, lycopene or selenium — were purchased and tested.  See separate reports on this site for other ingredients used for cancer prevention: folate, garlic, isoflavones, vitamin C, vitamin D, and vitamin E.

But problems were detected in three green tea products: Two were contaminated with lead and another contained only 71% of its claimed level of EGCG, a key compound in green tea. One selenium supplement contained only 38% of its ingredient.


Brands covered in the review include those from Bluebonnet, Canadian Sun, Country Life, GNC, Food Science of Vermont, Futurebiotics, Herbal Select, Jarrow, KAL, Life Extension, Metabolic Maintenance, Nature's Answer, Nature's Bounty, Pharmanex, Puritan's Pride, Schiff, Vitamin World, and Whole Foods.


And, most recently, CL.com's tests on Valerian root were quite alarming:

http://www.consumerl...ts/valerian.asp

In this Review, you'll get ConsumerLab's test results for 16 products. Eight products contained less key compounds than expected. One of these was also contaminated with lead while two other products had cadmium contamination. Results were confirmed in independent laboratories.


Other scientific research conducted on dietary supplement products sold in the USA:

http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&...=0&#entry126548[/url]

3. No, they can if they want to. There is no real EVIDENCE suggesting choline supplementation along with your piracetam will make you significantly smarter. There is also little evidence to suggest taking piracetam will make you smarer. We've been through these topic before...the problem with most of the research on the popularized nootropics:

From a peer review by J. M. Keppel Hesselink, From the Department of Pharmacology, University of Witten/Herdecke, Germany. Corresponding author: Jan M.Keppel Hesselink, MD, PhD, Professor of Pharmacology
http://www.gjpsy.uni...icle-keppel.htm

drugs using modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries. The studies referred to on the Net by the smart drug advocates are mostly published in non peer-reviewed, obscure journals and in proceedings of congresses. The facts presented in those papers are over-interpreted by the advocates of smart drugs. Furthermore facts to support their use in man have been extrapolated from animal pharmacology without too much knowledge of the problems of many of the animal models used.


4. I've never felt anything significant from Piracetam. I think it may be neuroprotective -- that's why I might suggest taking it.

5. Modafinil is only FDA approved for narcolepsy and sleep apnea. It has been tested in normal volunteers and is considered the most effective "intelligence enhancer." FDA won't approve a drug to make normal people smarter and there are not companies working to do this as they are worried about litigation.

See the following topics to learn the most cutting edge info on the current status of nootropics:

Anders Sandberg on cognitive enhancement, social impact and current state etc.
http://www.imminst.o...=169&t=12091&s=

Danila Medvedev on cognitive enhancement, practical approach
http://www.imminst.o...=169&t=12055&s=

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#3 mrmandrake

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 32 posts
  • -0

Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:07 AM

Thanks nootropikamil,

Maybe piracetam doesn't seem like such a good idea now. I guess I'll just have to stick to caffeine for now. Thanks again for putting the effort into your reply.

#4 superpooper

  • Guest
  • 190 posts
  • -0

Posted 07 September 2006 - 06:37 AM

Does the GMP label mean much?

#5 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 07 September 2006 - 08:15 AM

Does the GMP label mean much?


superpooper, I really admire your username. It's kept me from replying a few times...lol

I'm not really sure because the main problem seems to be that dietary supplements aren't regulated like drugs are:

The History of GMPs for Dietary Supplements

The Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA) authorized but did not require the FDA to adopt new federal regulations for GMPs for dietary supplements. Under DSHEA, the FDA can issue GMP regulations for dietary supplements that are modeled after food GMPs. A number of organizations developed a model for the regulations and passed it to FDA in late 1995. The sponsors were the American Herbal Products Association (AHPA), the Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN), the National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA) and the Utah Natural Products Alliance (UNPA).

"In DSHEA, Congress ordered FDA to model any specific GMPs for supplements on food GMPs," Ullman said. "The food GMPs [as opposed to pharmaceutical GMPs] had less rigorous steps to take against impurity--not every batch needs to be tested and record retention isn't as rigorous."


So dietary supplements are regulated like foods, not drugs.

Here is a critical review of GMPs and ways to ensure you get a quality product (I'll try to summarize at the end):

Making Sense of GMPs

Currently, there are no federal good manufacturing practice regulations specific to dietary supplements. In general, the Food and Drug Adminstration (FDA) defines the term good manufacturing practices (GMP) as procedures in manufacturing of foods, drugs and medical devices that are designed to ensure production consistency.

GMPs are about maintaining manufacturing standards--they are not necessarily a guarantee that a product is safe. "GMPs are supposed to ensure that only what is supposed to go in a product is actually what goes into it," said attorney Marc Ullman with Ullman, Shapiro and Ullman. "They also ensure that the product has been manufactured in a sanitary environment." They operate in accordance with label claims that say the product's ingredients are in a safe, uncontaminated and pure form. As Ullman noted, there is always an inherent risk that there may be side effects associated with a product, whether it's a dietary supplement or a pharmaceutical.


The term "cGMP" is used by the federal government as current good manufacturing practices. By definition, "cGMP" indicates that the current GMP--which is "state of the art"--can change. "GMP" and "cGMP" are often used interchangeably and essentially they have the same meaning.The History of GMPs for Dietary Supplements

The Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994 (DSHEA) authorized but did not require the FDA to adopt new federal regulations for GMPs for dietary supplements. Under DSHEA, the FDA can issue GMP regulations for dietary supplements that are modeled after food GMPs. A number of organizations developed a model for the regulations and passed it to FDA in late 1995. The sponsors were the American Herbal Products Association (AHPA), the Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN), the National Nutritional Foods Association (NNFA) and the Utah Natural Products Alliance (UNPA).

"In DSHEA, Congress ordered FDA to model any specific GMPs for supplements on food GMPs," Ullman said. "The food GMPs [as opposed to pharmaceutical GMPs] had less rigorous steps to take against impurity--not every batch needs to be tested and record retention isn't as rigorous."

Beyond Internal QC--Questions For Your Supplier
Research your supplier. Ask questions to protect yourself and your customers.

* What is your policy regarding GMP practices?
* Do your raw materials meet the applicable requirements for United States Pharmacopoeia, National Formulary and the Code of Federal Regulations [where applicable]?
* Does your company provide ongoing GMP compliance through training and updates?
* Do you test all raw materials for identity, purity and potency prior to use/sale?
* Does your quality control process involve statistical sampling with pre-established, acceptable quality limits (AQLs)?
* Does your in-process inspection verify conformance to specifications, physical dimensions, weight control and microbial limits?
* Do you supply a Certificate of Analysis with each product shipment? Is your facility and staff available for customer audits?


Information provided by Tamara Smith, tsmith@qualicaps.com.

Unfortunately, it's now 2000 and the FDA has not proposed any new regulations for dietary supplement GMPs. This has placed the industry in a regulatory gray zone and has many industry members questioning why the FDA is taking six years to create new GMPs.

DSHEA mandates that FDA's GMPs would require companies to ensure quality control through written record keeping and the faithful monitoring of manufacturing operations. Written records would validate safety, purity and potency of ingredients. FDA would also like companies to track complaints such as illnesses and injuries alleged to have occurred through use of dietary supplements, but this would not track food GMPs, said attorney Anthony Young with Piper Marbury Rudnick & Wolfe.

The Current Status of GMPs for Supplements

"Currently, dietary supplement manufacturers are required to follow food GMPs and many supplement manufacturers have also established additional GMPs," said Phillip Harvey, Ph.D., NNFA's director of science and quality assurance.

Until the FDA or the industry comes through with a set of dietary supplement GMPs that are approved by or applicable to all, companies are setting internal GMPs and using them as a template for quality standards. For instance, Tamara Smith, the department head of marketing at Whitsett, N.C.-based Shionogi Qualicaps, said her company has its own set of self-imposed GMPs. It has a list of suggestions for manufacturers to help determine the quality of a supplier, regardless of the presence of federal GMP regulations.

According to Smith, companies that comply voluntarily with FDA inspections and GMPs manufacture in a validated continuous production environment, which guarantees consistent quality. The best feature in-house labs, scientific and technical staff and testing capabilities. She also noted that they offer their own inspection programs that involve regular sampling and monitoring of product quality and they perform additional tests to monitor process controls at prescribed intervals. The FDA may also do its own inspections.

Other companies such as Traco Labs have initiated in-house GMP programs that ensure quality control from within. "While the temptation may exist to sacrifice quality for the sake of profits, we feel that this attitude is counter-productive to long-term goals," said Harlee Sorkin of Traco Labs. "We have made a number of efforts over the course of years to earn the trust of supplement manufacturers." For example, Traco adopted ISO 9000 standards to govern its GMPs.

NNFA's GMP Program--Pros and Cons

Rather than waiting for federal GMPs, NNFA rolled out a GMP program in January, 1999. When its GMPs were put in place, NNFA required all of its members to comply; that policy is no longer enforced. According to the NNFA, the policy changed because its bylaws require that a new condition of membership cannot be created without the full vote of the NNFA membership, which had not been done. It has also added a disclaimer this year, which is used in conjunction with the NNFA GMP seal, that reads, "This seal certifies that the manufacturer of this product uses quality systems and procedures that comply with NNFA's Dietary Supplement GMP standards. The quality of individual ingredients, however, has not been certified."

According to Tracy Taylor, public affairs and communications coordinator at the NNFA, the legend keeps consumers from making incorrect inferences about products with the seal. "Products that display the GMP seal are not of the same quality," she said. "Raw materials must be tested for identity, but many have higher grades of ingredients."

In order to qualify for the seal, manufacturers must be audited for their compliance to NNFA's GMP guidelines. All of a manufacturer's facilities, including production, packaging, testing and/or distribution, may be audited by independent, third-party auditors who have been trained on the association's protocol. NNFA's Advisory Committee may assess the quality of the audits. The company is then rated by NNFA on a scale of A to C [A is "excellent compliance, minimal deficiencies; B is good compliance, few minor/major deficiencies; C is fair/poor compliance, many major deficiencies]; it is then determined whether follow-up inspections are necessary.

NNFA GMP-Certified Companies
Manufacturers: Country Life, Nature's Herbs, Nature's Life, Nature's Way, Now Foods, Wakanuga of America Co. Ltd.
Ingredient Supplier: Biosint USA
Private Label/Contract Manufacturers: Health Factors International, Leiner Health Products, Merical VitaPak, Nutrition Formulators, Soft Gel Technologies/Optipure, Vitamer/Anabolic Labs

"There are no exact numbers as to how many major and minor deficiencies a company might have and still receive an 'A' compliance rating," said Harvey. "Some deficiencies requiring corrective action could be addressed during the actual audit. However, a critical deficiency [e.g., not using potable water or lack of raw material identity testing] would automatically result in a 'C' rating, which then requires a re-audit as part of the corrective action. It is important to note that the auditor will confirm the existence of all mandatory policies, procedures and records and will review a representative sampling of the procedures for adequacy and adherence. A member supplier that lacks even a few of the mandatory elements will not receive an 'A' compliance rating." It is only after receiving an 'A' rating that a member company can apply for the NNFA GMP seal, which it can apply to its packaging.

But what if a company gets a 'C' rating and refuses to comply? "Theoretically, if a company chooses not to institute corrective action and not to bring their compliance rating up to an 'A' level, the audit would then be closed and the company is not eligible to become NNFA GMP Certified," Harvey said.

Currently there are 13 companies GMP-certified by the NNFA, out of approximately 1,000 supplier members [a number that includes manufacturers, raw material suppliers, distributors, brokers, etc.] According to the NNFA, there are 60 more companies in the certification 'pipeline.' "Of note," Harvey said, "is that approximately 10 companies have joined NNFA this past year specifically to participate in the GMP program. The enrollment figures speak volumes about the popularity of this program among member suppliers."

Though its program is currently the only GMP program in the industry, its reception has been mixed. "Some companies have more resources than others, so they're forced to comply because of investments [such as trademarks]," said Ken Hassen, vice president of sales and marketing at Biosint USA. "For others with limited resources, [getting the GMP certification] may not be a priority."

Hassen added that getting the certification may be overwhelming for manufacturers, but it's better to apply for the [NNFA] audits and meet them head-on, because the need for this sort of evaluation will not go away. "If we don't police ourselves," said Hassen, "it will be incumbent on others [FTC, FDA] to do it for us." According to Hassen, there has to be some sort of industry-wide standard that can allow consumers to be make informed decisions when choosing products.

"We're one of the companies that really wanted it [the label]," said Jodi Drexler with Country Life. "We needed it for a long time [in the industry]. A company has to be certified--and it's a grueling process. It's more than having clean floors and machines. It's making sure that what you say is in the product is actually in it." According to Drexler, the NNFA's GMP logo inspires consumer confidence. "The logo is important because consumers can buy products anywhere--that's why [NNFA's] GMPs are important. How does a consumer know a vitamin is good?"

However, some companies that have become certified are not as effusive. Though NNFA is the first organization in the industry to offer GMP certification, "its certification process is only a one-time shot," said Dean Morris of Murdock Madaus Schwabe, parent company of Nature's Way. "There's little follow-up [by the NNFA] and it's not effective for label claim validation." And regarding the logo, said Morris, "It's a start, but it needs progress."

Others echo those concerns. "In a sense, the GMP that NNFA is promoting is simply a process for documenting the production process with no regard for the quality of the ingredients so long as they meet the company's written specification," said Stephen Ashmead, head of research and development at Clearfield, Utah-based Albion Labs. "I am concerned that there is no enforcement policy associated with the audit, and that certification is good for three years. Also, it is not known how FDA's guidelines will differ from NNFA's."

Another question is what does the presence of the GMP seal on a product mean to consumers? Some note that a lack of consumer education about the seal may confuse consumers about what it actually represents. "While the program is sound in theory, the implementation has left quite a bit to be desired," Sorkin said. "The NNFA GMP program indicates that products bearing its logo are safe, and that implies a certain level of quality. In fact, GMPs provide no assurance of the quality or safety of a product; they simply set guidelines for production which help to ensure consistency. So if a product is of low quality, GMPs only ensure that it will be low quality every time."

According to Jarrow Rogovin, president of Jarrow Industries Inc., the NNFA's program blurs the distinction between "quality" and "raw material." The solution, he said, is to eliminate the logo. "As far as the NNFA having a GMP program goes, even the FDA hasn't convinced itself that it needs GMPs [for dietary supplements]," Rogovin said. It takes a great deal of time and money to meet the NNFA's standards, he added, and he belives that having NNFA's GMP seal on a product insinuates that the product is "co-branded." In addition, he said, some companies have standards that are higher than the NNFA's, so having NNFA's logo on all products makes them all look the same. "A logo from an organization that represents small, independent health food stores will be seen on the shelves of mainstream drugstores and supermarkets, because you can't control distribution," he remarked. "What message does this send to the membership?"

The Future of GMPs for Supplements

According to the FDA, there are a number of reasons why GMPs have not yet been put in place. In a Federal Register notice issued Oct. 6, 1999 [vol. 64, No. 193], the FDA noted its concerns about the lack of cGMP for dietary supplements. The FDA's numerous concerns--ranging from ways to enhance the quality of information collected to minimizing the burden of information collection on individual companies--all point to a need for more clarification about procedures within the guidance. [The issues raised by the FDA were open for comment.]

The FDA is currently working on creating regulations for GMPs and, according to an FDA spokesperson, "It's a priority to have a proposed rule on GMPs for dietary supplements within this fiscal year [2000-2001].

Some in the industry said they have been meeting with the FDA in "small business discussions" called by the FDA. Those discussions have been a forum for the industry to make its needs known to the FDA before it publishes its guidance. AHPA is one of the organizations that has attended every one of the meetings.

"I hope the FDA is astute enough [under DSHEA] to avoid creating drug GMPs for dietary supplements," said Michael McGuffin, president of AHPA. "My hope is that they'll present a GMP that's crafted in the spirit of the industry." McGuffin noted that AHPA hopes to see FDA use the 1995 industry draft GMPs as its guideline. Also, once there are federal GMPs, McGuffin anticipates additional market pressure on dietary supplement companies to ensure quality of materials. AHPA is currently working on a manual for identification of botanicals in order to establish a procedure for identification. McGuffin also assisted in drafting specific guidance for botanical identification that was adopted by the FDA's Food Advisory Committee.[b]


Presently, the food GMPs apply to the manufacture of dietary supplements, Young said. "The dietary supplement industry should look to the cGMPs for food as guidance for areas that need to be addressed in any reasonable GMP program," he said. FDA's inspectors use the food GMPs as a matrix for compliance when they visit a company, which FDA has the authority to do for any reason.

"Companies should be able to benefit from a common-sense approach to quality manufacturing," said attorney Tony Martinez with Martinez and Associates. "However, the new dietary supplement GMPs will be different from food GMPs and companies will have to allocate and invest in new resources to make compliance efficient."

In the meantime, Ullman said, companies can implement their own GMP and other QC programs. "They are essential as a formalized set of procedures designed to ensure that a product is what it represents itself to be," he said. "That should include testing of incoming raw material--manufacturers should not rely on assays handed to them"

At the end of the day, "a GMP is the baseline," McGuffin said. "It's the least a company is allowed to do. Quality control is a part of that. The basic steps involve isolating raw materials." However, he noted, "there is still no right way to ensure internal quality control."


How can you ensure you get a pure and safe product? First, make sure there is some research behind the product; do some elementary research and determine the study groups used and see if you fit in the criteria.

Second, get a membership at ConsumerLab.com and see which companies are able to consistently match their label claims and only buy from these companies. If the company you wish to purchase your products from is not listed there (and is able to match their claims and be free of contaminants), then question their COAs. Ask them to provide you with evidence that they use pharmacutical grade suppliers (companies that use DRUG GMPs, not FOOD GMPs). If a company claims to perform their own independent testing, then request a copy (in this forum!) and see what type of testing they performed. If they can't provide any evidence, it's probably just a claim intended to juice your pocketbook.

I would like a little quality control on my Chinese food imports! I don't like to eat imported Chinese food! Especially considering exhorbiant amount of contaminants found in Chinese imported dietary supplements (regulated like foods)!

Piracetam has some research to support its use as a supplement. Much more than most supplements sold in the supplement market, and I think it protects the brain and can enhance creative capacity. But we have no way to measure this creativity, so it's on you to determine if it's worth the cost. For a clinical proven smart drug, I'd suggest Provigil (modafinil).

Edited by nootropikamil, 24 January 2007 - 03:24 AM.


#6 pikatchu

  • Guest
  • 20 posts
  • 3

Posted 12 September 2006 - 07:03 PM

The evidence supporting the use of piracetam in healthy subjects is quite weak compared to much better tested and studied compounds such as Provigil or Ritalin. I guess you can try it] drugs using modern, validated neuropsychological test batteries. The studies referred to on the Net by the smart drug advocates are mostly published in non peer-reviewed, obscure journals and in proceedings of congresses. The facts presented in those papers are over-interpreted by the advocates of smart drugs. Furthermore facts to support their use in man have been extrapolated from animal pharmacology without too much knowledge of the problems of many of the animal models used



It’s always interesting to read about those opinions, evidences and studies regarding nootropics effectiveness. As everybody here knows, the experience is different for each individual and the auto-evaluation of a nootropic effectiveness is, I think, very subjective and probably very influenced by feelings. My personal evaluation of several substances is based on experiences with different dosages and contexts, on a long time basis. I’m working as a software writer so my job is giving me a good testing bench: in a daily base I can evaluate characteristics like: focus, quickness, productivity (and counter-productivity witch is common in coding) and mental fatigue resistance, among others. I would be very annoyed to self-evaluate nootropics without having any long term brain-working tasks… I think it would be much more based on feelings for me.

My experience showed me that some substance make you feel “nootropiked” but the results are simply not there, while others let you think that you swallowed placebo, but at the end you can tell without doubts that there is results coming from the substance.

It’s clear from your posts that you don’t think racetams are very usefuls and that you consider ritalin and/or modafinil better choices for those who are seeking results. I think you maybe right but for sure it’s not the case for me. I tried all those and without any doubt, I get more from racetams than with ritalin and/or modafinil, at least in my work and context. Of course those 2 are making me feel more “nootropiked” and ready-to-conquer-the-world but the results are simply not there. I would even say that they are counter-productive for me writing code, as they are making me quickly write tones of buggy code-lines, without saying that most of those lines are not required: those 2 are very good to work around the clock doing a lot of things I don’t really have to do and not doing what I took the crap for….

Well that’s for me. When I need the modafinil-way of “nootropication”, I go with sulbutiamine wich is for me, in a lot of aspects, a better choice.

#7 mrmandrake

  • Topic Starter
  • Guest
  • 32 posts
  • -0

Posted 12 September 2006 - 07:52 PM

Thanks alot piktchu for your take on modafinil and racetrams. It really helped. I think I'm going to give both a try if possible and see which one works better for me.

#8 pikatchu

  • Guest
  • 20 posts
  • 3

Posted 12 September 2006 - 09:24 PM

It's been a pleasure. You probably know it but unlike drugs like modafinil, most racetams need to build-up in your brain and thus even if you can feel them at the very beginning (witch most of people don’t), there full benefits will come after several weeks; I would say a full month for Piracetam. Also racetams have to be taken with a choline source for effectiveness and principally to avoid headaches.

#9 cmorera

  • Guest
  • 168 posts
  • 0

Posted 12 September 2006 - 09:37 PM

Hello,

This is my first post here so sorry for any stupid questions, I've tried to read as many posts as I could to avoid those questions.  I am a computer engineer pursuing my MBA with night classes and am looking into nootropics.  I had a couple of questions:

1.  I want to start trying Piracetam, where do people from this forum usually purchase it?  I don't want to start ingesting things I buy online unless it's from a quality place that you guys trust.

2.  What dosage of Piracetam do people usually take?  I read that 2-12 800mg pills daily.  Do you really need that much to feel an effect?

3.  Do people who take Piracetam usually take Choline also?

4.  Am I right that Piracetam is not a stimulant and so it does NOT keep you awake, just makes you more efficient while you are awake?  What I really want to know is if Piracetam helps you stay awake.

5.  I read a lot about Modafinil here also.  How are you guys getting it if it's only prescribed for narcolypsy?

Thanks for any help.  If you need to PM me in order to answer that is fine also.


heydude

lets see

1&2) try maybe aniracetam, or oxiracetam, those are more powerful but similar to piracetam. so go for the punch right away is my advice.

3)been answered

4)doubtful

5) indianmeds4u.com . I got some of this stuff, I take 25mg maybe twice a week MAX. Thats 1/8 of a pill, or less than .20c worth. Its good stuff, but not too much FOR ME. to each his own. itake it when i wake up and feeling 'sluggish' or brain could. This fixes it up, also it makes me very angry at times, but i think this is 'healing' anger, ie repressed stuff ext. .. i notice effects from my sligh dabble with Modafinil even when i am not on it.

I think 200mg a day is too much, since it metabolizes slow and can caus possible long term sleep deficiencies, or deep sleep deficiences.




and start looking into other nootropics also! vincopetine, bacopa, ahswadna ? , ALCAR/RALA, fish oil, NAC and many more.

your milage may vary by source, i wont reccomend anyone due to 'powers that have it' :) u can pm me

#10 xanadu

  • Guest
  • 1,917 posts
  • 8

Posted 12 September 2006 - 11:45 PM

Very good points, cmorera and pikatchu. For me piracetam is a stimulant but not a physical one. It seems mentally stimulating which can translate in more physical activity sometimes. It tends to keep me awake a little bit. Most people don't have that problem and some say it makes them sleepy. It doesn't just make you think more. That would be mental energy, in a way. It also makes you look at things from a different prospective sometimes. Music can seem enhanced or you get into it more. It seems to have a slight to middling synergistic effects with many other drugs such as alcohol, caffeine and some other substances and herbs. I've had to lower my dose of a few things since I got on piracetam.

You will hear plenty from those who think it does nothing. For them it may not. Not everyone seems to benefit from it and they may get from a small to a very large result if they do. It's a subtle thing, you have to be open to it. For me it seems strong and it came on after a couple days but it took a few weeks to really kick in. I started with 1,200mg a day with sundays off and later reduced it to 800mg. Now I'm down to 500mg a day and am evaluating the dosage. It seemed a little too strong at higher doses but I may go back up to 600 - 700mg a day. It's totally safe so you literally have nothing to lose by trying it. I bought mine from Bulk Nutrition but there are other places that sell it. Relentless is a site sponsor and well thought of. BN sells in bulk so you save money if you cap it yourself.

#11 brutale

  • Guest
  • 62 posts
  • -1
  • Location:NY, NY

Posted 18 September 2006 - 12:14 AM

Good questions. I have found this forum quite educational. Let me put my two cents in.

1. I use Relentless Improvement. Haven't done any independent testing myself, but many people feel this is a credible source. A possible alternative is an offshore pharmacy like International Antiaging Systems who may be able to sell you the original pharmaceutical piracetam Nootropil from UCB.

2. People seem to vary substantially in terms of responsiveness to the racetams. I "feel" aniracetam slightly more than twice the dose of piracetam - enhanced color perception and so forth. Others prefer oxiracetam, or the original piracetam. Some folks report few effects, and some people get headaches.

3. Yes. Taking choline is the conventional wisdom, and - hey - the conventional wisdom is usually right. Try alpha-GPC or CDP choline for good bioavailable sources.

4. I find the racetams mildly stimulating but not dramatically stimulating. I do find that I have a little more trouble getting my mind to go blank. I seem to remember my dreams better, and have even come to interesting realizations in dreams ... prior to nootropic use, I would seldom remember dreams upon awakening. On the other hand, I find myself waking up more. I think piracetam is the culprit, since the effect is diminished when I skip my p.m. dosage of aniracetam or piracetam. It's not a big deal in any case. If you need a real stimulant, look elsewhere.

5. modafinil - it's being used off-label for a variety of things including weight loss. I read somewhere that sales run into the hundreds of millions annually. There just aren't that many narcoleptics. If you think you could benefit, just make an appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in psychopharmacology. The benefits of modafinil may include increased motivation, better impulse control, enhanced alertness. It is an excellent alternative to caffeine. Through familiarity, people forget that caffeine is a real drug too, with effects on blood flow, sleep, etc. Modafinil provides a more gradual lift and fall off. Finally, modafinil is being used successfully to treat stimulant addiction - the proposed mechanism is raising depleted glutamate levels. On the downside, it can have give one a nasty, aggressive "edge" if the dosage is too high, and modafinil can interfere with deep sleep. The use of an SSRI or sAME can help modulate the edge, but my view is that the better solution is to take less.

modafinil may allow college students to engage in marathon exam prep session but staying up 3 night in a row doesn't really fit in with a program for cognitive enhancement. Sleep matters, imho.

#12 doug123

  • Guest
  • 2,424 posts
  • -1
  • Location:Nowhere

Posted 25 October 2006 - 04:50 AM

Good questions.  I have found this forum quite educational.  Let me put my two cents in.

1.  I use Relentless Improvement.  Haven't done any independent testing myself, but many people feel this is a credible source.    A possible alternative is an offshore pharmacy like International Antiaging Systems who may be able to sell you the original pharmaceutical piracetam Nootropil from UCB.

2.    People seem to vary substantially in terms of responsiveness to the racetams.  I "feel" aniracetam slightly more than twice the dose of piracetam - enhanced color perception and so forth.    Others prefer oxiracetam, or the original piracetam.  Some folks report few effects, and some people get headaches. 

3.    Yes.  Taking choline is the conventional wisdom, and - hey - the conventional wisdom is usually right.    Try alpha-GPC or CDP choline for good bioavailable sources.

4.    I find the racetams mildly stimulating but not dramatically stimulating.  I do find that I have a little more trouble getting my mind to go blank.  I seem to remember my dreams better, and have even come to interesting realizations in dreams ... prior to nootropic use, I would seldom remember dreams upon awakening.    On the other hand, I find myself waking up more.    I think piracetam is the culprit, since the effect is diminished when I skip my p.m. dosage of aniracetam or piracetam.  It's not a big deal in any case.    If you need a real stimulant, look elsewhere. 

5.  modafinil - it's being used off-label for a variety of things including weight loss.   I read somewhere that sales run into the hundreds of millions annually.  There just aren't that many narcoleptics.    If you think you could benefit, just make an appointment with a psychiatrist who specializes in psychopharmacology.    The benefits of modafinil may include increased motivation, better impulse control, enhanced alertness.  It is an excellent alternative to caffeine.  Through familiarity, people forget that caffeine is a real drug too, with effects on blood flow, sleep, etc.  Modafinil provides a more gradual lift and fall off.  Finally, modafinil is being used successfully to treat stimulant addiction - the proposed mechanism is raising depleted glutamate levels.    On the downside,  it can have give one a nasty, aggressive "edge" if the dosage is too high, and modafinil can interfere with deep sleep.    The use of an SSRI or sAME can help modulate the edge, but my view is that the better solution is to take less.

modafinil may allow college students to engage in marathon exam prep session but staying up 3 night in a row doesn't really fit in with a program for cognitive enhancement.  Sleep matters, imho.


brutale, can you show me which trial is studying the effects of modafinil on weight loss, please?

sponsored ad

  • Advert
Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

#13 Guest_Isochroma_*

  • Lurker
  • 0

Posted 03 August 2009 - 04:20 AM

mrmandrake: regarding your questions, here are my answers using your numbering.

1. I maintain a list of racetam sellers and their prices for personal use, and put a copy online so others could make use of it too. It lists the cheapest 3-4 suppliers & their prices for: Piracetam, Aniracetam, Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Nefiracetam and Phenylpiracetam. Racetam Prices [mirror]

2. I'm a heavy user so I take 5 x 3g per day (15g per day total). Most people would do fine on 3 x 3g.

3. Egg yolks banished the slight headaches I used to get when first starting. It only took a week and they were gone forever, even after I quit the eggs. It seems that an initial high demand for choline when first starting due to receptor growth can cause headaches/fuzziness for some. This fades over the first two weeks. It's been thirteen months now and I don't take any choline or eggs and effects are just as good as when I was eating six egg yolks per day :)

4. Piracetam is not a stimulant but if you take it just before bed it can make going to sleep take longer. However, my sleep is deeper and more refreshing; I wake up clearheaded after vivid dreams that are amazing and super easy to remember! Piracetam will never make you lose sleep if you need it, like stimulants such as caffeine, cocaine, amphetamines, or methylphenidate {Ritalin} can.

5. One disadvantage of Modafinil is it tends to make urine stink due to its sulfur content:

"In my experience, there are only two downsides to the eerie and remarkable effects of Provigil. One is thinking: I got 70 minutes of sleep, and my bones are weary, but I can do complex math in my head... so, where's the bill? What inside me is paying for this free ride?Two is what it's like to piss, when you're on it and for a little while afterwards. Painless, normal color, but the smell of your urine can best be described as a garbage barge out at sea. Set on fire.The pee thing suggests that maybe it's not great for you, but IANAD.The rest, it's all positive, in my experience. If I could afford it ($9/pill off-script) I'd take it every day."

Modafinil does not have the long history of safety that the most common racetam, Piracetam has. Modafinil is not non-toxic like piracetam; here's some links to help you inform yourself on its risks and side effects:

Revised modafinil label cites psychiatric risks

ImmInst.org Forums: Modafinil daily dose, How much do you take?

Modafinil is very expensive compared to piracetam.

Finally, Modafinil is prescription-only in many countries, while the racetams are unregulated (in most countries).

For these reasons I took up Piracetam and declined to even try Modafinil as it is prescription only in my country, has side-effects, is not non-toxic, stinks up the urine, and is way too costly. Piracetam is cheap because it is off-patent and the molecule is simple. Piracetam is a true nootropic, and fixes up damaged brains (it did so for me). Modafinil is a stimulant with what some claim to be 'nootropic' effects - though I haven't heard much on forums about it boosting anyone's intelligence. It also has some tolerance issues, unlike Piracetam.

And of course if you're trying to stay awake: bright blue or blue-white light during waking hours, and dim red light or darkness only in the evening before bed. The biggest signal for your body on whether you should be sleepy or not is the bright blue and green (half the strength of blue) light that prevents melatonin secretion which otherwise causes daytime tiredness. We evolved under the bright blue sky and white sunlight. 6500K compact fluorescents and aquarium metal halides (6500K, 10,000K, 20,000K) work excellently. In a pinch 5000K works too.

I use 12 x 23W 6500K compact fluorescents for my daytime lighting. It keeps sleep far, far away. Night-time lighting is dim red christmas bulbs (the incadescent kind, opaque coated 7W). Up to 60W opaque red 'ceramic' coated incandescents work great to provide visibility without inhibiting melatonin during 'night' hours.

Edited by Isochroma, 03 August 2009 - 04:55 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users