Deprenyl advices

I want to try deprenyl again, I can't really remember what it was like last time I took it. Mainly because it was cyprenil which was the liquid version. Unfortunately the top didn't close down tight and I knocked the bottle over, and 90% of it spilled out! So I only tried 1mg a few times, I did it with chocamine and let me say the positive mood was great. I would go outdoors and the colors would be so vivid and bright.

Other than that I can't remember. One thing is for certain, I am starting a new job soon and will be dealing with CEOs of major companies on a regular basis. I can't afford to get pissed off because of too much dopamine, and say the wrong thing to one of these guys and lose my job. The other downside is, I take many supplements and am worried about interactions between that and the deprenyl.

I would like to try it though, as I really need some motivation.

Any tips on how I could utilize this drug without sufferring from the effects of TOO much dopamine?

Alot of info there kamil. Good stuff.

Longterm use of deprenyl (i.e 3months or so) at 2.5mgs a day would be safer than longterm use of bupropion at the age of 21 for depression, wouldnt you think? I know we dont know the longterm effects of either really, but i think that would be a safe conclusion.

Both deprenyl and wellbutrin are prescription only in the USA; you should seek proper medical care to see if what therapy works best for you. You might respond best to Deprenyl; but you might not! Every patient seems to be different; I know several people who tried Adderall, Dextroamphetamine, Ritalin, Strattera, Wellbutrin, and everyone has a different preference. If you do have ADD/ADHD, without counsel of a psychiatrist specializing in attention related disorders, you should not be taking these drugs. You might end up with serious side effects, or in some cases (if your heart might be) you might end up in the Emergency Room, in some cases, dead:

http://nootropics.ip...p?showtopic=712
http://nootropics.ip...p?showtopic=710
http://nootropics.ip...p?showtopic=520

Taking these drugs without care of a phyisican is quite dangerous.

An otherwise healthy life extensionist should read Michael's post below before taking deprenyl. However, for ADD or attention related disorders, there is some data substantitaing its use.

Prog Neuropsychopharmacol Biol Psychiatry. 2003 Aug;27(5):841-5. 

Selegiline in the treatment of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children: a double blind and randomized trial.

Akhondzadeh S, Tavakolian R, Davari-Ashtiani R, Arabgol F, Amini H.

Roozbeh Psychiatric Hospital, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, South Kargar Avenue, Tehran 13334, Iran. s.akhond@neda.net

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) is a common disorder of childhood that affects 3% to 6% of school-age children. Conventional stimulant medications are recognized by both specialists and parents as useful symptomatic treatment. Nevertheless, approximately 30% of ADHD children treated with them do not respond adequately or cannot tolerate the associated adverse effects. Such difficulties highlight the need for alternative safe and effective medications in the treatment of this disorder. Selegiline is a type B monoamine oxidase inhibitor (MAOI) that is metabolized to amphetamine and methamphetamine stimulant compounds that may be useful in the treatment of ADHD. The authors undertook this study to further evaluate, under double-blind and controlled conditions, the efficacy of selegiline for ADHD in children. A total of 28 children with ADHD as defined by DSM IV were randomized to selegiline or methylphenidate dosed on an age and weight-adjusted basis at selegiline 5 mg/day (under 5 years) and 10 mg/day (over 5 years) (Group 1) and methylphenidate 1 mg/kg/day (Group 2) for a 4-week double-blind clinical trial. The principal measure of the outcome was the Teacher and Parent ADHD Rating Scale. Patients were assessed by a child psychiatrist at baseline, 14 and 28 days after the medication started. No significant differences were observed between the two protocols on the Parent and Teacher Rating Scale scores. Although the number of dropouts in the methylphenidate group was higher than in the selegiline group, there was no significant difference between the two protocols in terms of the dropouts. Decreased appetite, difficulty falling asleep and headaches were observed more in the methylphenidate group.The results of this study must be considered preliminary, but they do suggest that selegiline may be beneficial in the treatment of ADHD. In addition, a tolerable side effect profile may be considered as one of the advantages of selegiline in the treatment of ADHD.


Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 12921918 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....l=pubmed_docsum

J Child Adolesc Psychopharmacol. 2004 Fall;14(3):418-25. 

Selegiline in comparison with methylphenidate in attention deficit hyperactivity disorder children and adolescents in a double-blind, randomized clinical trial.

Mohammadi MR, Ghanizadeh A, Alaghband-Rad J, Tehranidoost M, Mesgarpour B, Soori H.

Department of Psychiatry, Tehran University of Medical Sciences, Psychiatry and Clinical Psychology Research Center, Roozbeh Hospital, Tehran, Iran.

OBJECTIVES: The aim of this study was to examine the selegiline treatment compared to methylphenidate (MPH) in children and adolescents with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD). METHOD: Forty subjects, aged 6-15 years, boys and girls, who were diagnosed as having ADHD, using the criteria of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders- Fourth Edition (DSM-IV), were randomly assigned to receive either selegiline or MPH for 60 days. Treatment outcomes were assessed using the Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Scale (ADHS) administered at baseline and on days 14, 28, 42, and 60 following the commencement of treatment. Side effects were also rated. RESULTS: There were no significant differences between sex, age, weight, and ethnicity of participants in the 2 groups. Both groups showed a significant improvement over the 60 days of treatment resulting from the teachers' and parents' ADHS scores across the treatment. CONCLUSION: Following the trial, MPH did not effect greater mean improvement as a result of the parents' or teachers' ADHS scores than selegiline. Thus, selegiline appears to be effective and well tolerated for ADHD in children and adolescents.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 15650498 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Neurology. 1996 Apr;46(4):965-8. 

A controlled trial of deprenyl in children with Tourette's syndrome and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

Feigin A, Kurlan R, McDermott MP, Beach J, Dimitsopulos T, Brower CA, Chapieski L, Trinidad K, Como P, Jankovic J.

University of Rochester Medical Center, NY, USA.

We conducted a double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study to assess the efficacy of deprenyl for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children and adolescents with comorbid Tourette's syndrome (TS). Twenty-four subjects (21 boys, 3 girls; mean age 12 years) were enrolled at two sites (University of Rochester and Baylor College of Medicine). The design included two 8-week treatment periods separated by a 6-week washout period. The primary outcome measures for ADHD and tic severity were total scores on the DuPaul Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Scale (DADHS) and the Yale Global Tic Severity Scale (YGTSS). Fifteen subjects completed the study. The primary analysis revealed no statistically significant beneficial effect of deprenyl on the DADHS (mean improvement 1.3; 95% CI, -2.7 to 5.3; p = 0.50). Further post-hoc analyses revealed, however, that the effect of deprenyl in the first period was substantial (p = 0.02). There was a marginally statistically significant beneficial effect of deprenyl on the YGTSS total score (p = 0.06). Deprenyl may improve both ADHD and tics in children with TS and warrants further study.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8780073 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

If you might be a life extensionist worried about maximum lifespan, Deprenyl might not be the way to go:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

All:

I had run across SOD and increasing it a while back and.... I've forgotten which ones, but if you google SOD you'll pop up the names of some familiar herbs and possibly a nootropic as well

The question is whether it's a good thing to increase SOD. Antioxidant enzymes are NEGATIVELY correlated with species max LS (1,2); expressing extra SOD without extra CAT could actually INCREASE free radical stress by converting minimally-toxic superoxide into more-toxic hydrogen peroxide without the capacity to break it further down to water; SOD knockouts fail to show accelerated mortality except under artificially-indduced high oxidative stress; Down's syndrome is characterized by high SOD activity; etc.

"Superoxide dismutase mimetics [EUK-134 or EUK-8] elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans" despite the fact that they protect against hihg-level oxidative stress and prevent brain damage after a stroke or induced seizure (3).

Most notably, "Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life span in mice" (4), despite the fact that increased SOD in this model also leads to increased CAT.

Deprenyl is often cited as a counterexample, but it really isn't. Yes, Knoll made an exciting single report (and repeated it in several journals), but he's the ONLY person to report an extension of max LS: lots of others show increases in av'g bu t not max, no extension at all, or even *increased* mortality. Flat ad hominem: Knoll had the patent on the stuff. See the desperate attempts to reconcile the data between different studies on pp. 3-8, esp. the lifespan discussions on pp 7-8, of (1). Much of this info (but without, alas, the unpublished stuff sumarized in (1)) is put in a tabular form in (2), which makes the fundamental lack of anything like a logical pattern in the results clear. IMO, this shows pretty clearly that even if you believe there's something to it as a life-extension drug, there is just no way that one can rationally USE it as such at this time as there is no basis upon which to reasonably extrapolate a dose which can be expected to consistently extend even AV'G LS in humans.

There are no trials in normal, healthy humans, & the studies in both early and late PD are in sum quite inconclusive on the safety of deprenyl. See:

http://groups.google.....4A@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....BC@aimnet.com
http://groups.google.....84@aimnet.com

http://bmj.com/cgi/c...ll/317/7153/252
http://bmj.com/cgi/c...l/316/7139/1191
http://groups.google...m&output=gplain

(The first 3 largely go over the same ground, albeit from slightly
different angles; the others cover newer material).

A recent editorial comment on the study from which the last post is
abstracted:

http://www.neurology...s/55/12/1785#29

"Laboratory studies suggest that selegiline has properties that
theoretically could confer neuroprotection; however, evidence for this
in clinical trials is unfortunately lacking. ... Prescribing
medications such as selegiline on faith, with little evidence-based
efficacy, ignores the negative side of this practice, including
unnecessary expense to the patient, and the potential of deleterious
drug interations. (ref. 14)." The comment seems especially relevant in
the present discussion.

It doesn't appear to give any reliable benefits in animal systems; it seems to kill the folks it's designed to TREAT; I just do not see how the risk:benefit calculation can be fudged to make it come out in favor of use by young, healthy people.

-Michael

1. Kitani K, Minami C, Isobe K, Maehara K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Why (--)deprenyl prolongs survivals of experimental animals: increase of anti-oxidant enzymes in brain and other body tissues as well as mobilization of various humoral factors may lead to systemic anti-aging effects.
Mech Ageing Dev. 2002 Apr 30;123(8):1087-100. Review.
PMID: 12044958 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

2. Kitani K, Kanai S, Ivy GO, Carrillo MC.
Assessing the effects of deprenyl on longevity and antioxidant defenses in
different animal models.
Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1998 Nov 20;854:291-306. Review.
PMID: 9928438 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

3. Keaney M, Matthijssens F, Sharpe M, Vanfleteren J, Gems D.
Superoxide dismutase mimetics elevate superoxide dismutase activity in vivo but
do not retard aging in the nematode Caenorhabditis elegans.
Free Radic Biol Med. 2004 Jul 15;37(2):239-50.
PMID: 15203195 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

4. Huang TT, Carlson EJ, Gillespie AM, Shi Y, Epstein CJ.
Ubiquitous overexpression of CuZn superoxide dismutase does not extend life
span in mice.
J Gerontol A Biol Sci Med Sci. 2000 Jan;55(1):B5-9.
PMID: 10719757 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Peace.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

I want to try deprenyl again, I can't really remember what it was like last time I took it. Mainly because it was cyprenil which was the liquid version. Unfortunately the top didn't close down tight and I knocked the bottle over, and 90% of it spilled out! So I only tried 1mg a few times, I did it with chocamine and let me say the positive mood was great. I would go outdoors and the colors would be so vivid and bright.

Other than that I can't remember. One thing is for certain, I am starting a new job soon and will be dealing with CEOs of major companies on a regular basis. I can't afford to get pissed off because of too much dopamine, and say the wrong thing to one of these guys  and lose my job. The other downside is, I take many supplements and am worried about interactions between that and the deprenyl.

I would like to try it though, as I really need some motivation.

Any tips on how I could utilize this drug without sufferring from the effects of TOO much dopamine?

Deprenyl even at 10mg doses never made me agrressive or easily agitated. I'd say Bupropion could make you this as it works as a stimulant, while Deprenyl is more of a motivator. But beware of other stimulants while on deprenyl, it could increase their effects. I'd start with 2.5mg daily and work up to 5mg. Some do feel increased hyperactivity from deprenyl though it seems rare, anyway if you see negative effects lower the dose or stop. Do not combine with Modafinil, i had very bad anxiety from that combo.
I think dopamine is great for such job, people will find you motivated and with great desire to work, while stimulants in general only make you speedy.

Hey, sorry for the delayed response i just got back from bonnaroo (which was utterly amazing) and havent had acess to the internet except for that one time in went into the on-site internet cafe', but the sound of music quickly detoured me [lol]

I just finished this quarter and I am disappointed with my performance in what should have been an easy A if I would have devoted just a little more time to the coursework.  I barely slept last night and forgot my second dose of modafinil that I really needed right before my exam to calculate these really long ANOVA problems.
i a
kottke; anyone: please kick my ass out of this forum and tell me to go do my homework if you see me here posting more than once or twice a day, okay?  My life is getting pretty sad.

You can afford a psychiatrist if you can afford all these other comounds.  Do you have medical insurance?  If you do not, ask your family members to help you get an appointment.  Going on line and reading Internet forums for medical advice is very inefficient.  These fora are perfect for talking about supplements; but when it comes down to mind altering substances to enhance cognitive performance, that's an entirely different story.  We can tell you what we think might work; but there are LOTS more important variables that can come into play.  Side effects come to mind...

Do you live in the USA?  How old are you?

Im under my stepdads insurance and have to pay a hefty copay for a phsyciatrist visit. I completely understand the concept of the forums and at times i may seem desperate (and really am) and want an absolute answer but i haveto come to my own conclusions on the advice that is given to me. Im dealiing with these problems as i ask for advice and give advice, so there may be a sense of desperation in my words, but i try my best not to let these emotions overcome my principles and logic. Ill be 21, july 12th. I live in Lynchburg, VA of the USA of A. Im sorry about you're grades man, i dont really have all my ducks in a row either, it looks like nobody kicked you're ass yet so --ass kick to nootropikamil---kick, kick [thumb]


I cut the deprenyl dose to 2.5mgs and it works great. I didnt take it today though and experiencing pretty bad rebound depression, so i guess you could say im dependent on it for the moment untill i go through a withdrawal process, so im going to continue to take it until i get back from europe then start tianeptine for awhile. I can even tell through my sparatic typing that im not up to par [glasses] Dont get me wrong though deprenyl is awesome, but i need to go through some more repairative routes before i continute to use it.

-da_sense, you have given me the wonderful oppurtunity to try hydergine by sending me some, and i was wondering if there is any adverse reactions with deprenyl and hydergine. Also, how does one withdrawal from deprenyl? Do the protective actions of deprenyl only work for a few hours after a dose, or are they long lasting?

kottke
No for hydergine. There's no interaction between the two, i can only guess they could be synergistic.

I've not yet heard of deprenyl withdrawal. Though if you have bad depression lowering of dopamine when you stop deprenyl could be the reason. I used 5 mg for a year and just stoped one day, no withdrawal symptomes at all. From feedback i got it's usually same for most people. Just stop it and you loose it's benefits, so if you're addicted to it's benefits i guess it could be a problem. But selegiline is not addictive per se. Also, it effects should diminish in few days shouldn't stop immediately after you stop it.
Deprenyl is irreversible MAO, meaning it's mao inhibition lasts for 2-3 weeks. But it seems full dopamine boost is lost within 2-3 days after you stop it.

Good, lots of things i wanted to hear. Im not really addicted to the feeling of deprenyl i just felt a large slump in my mood even as far to say it went beyond the normal range and Im really glad to know the effects stop after 2-3days, because 40 or more days it would be hard to guage its effectiveness and its interactions. Thats so weird how it works like that.

I'm only guessing it could be it's antiaging benefit (irreverisble MAO) though no one is yet sure.
Yeah yeah before anyone chimes in, i know antiaging benefits are not fully studied

Where did kottke disappear off to?

Köln baby, wooo!

Deprenyl worked for a while, but then it began to give me some ill effects such as: spacial sense distruption, crazy mood swings, feeling of being really dumb and blank minded, loss of coordination. This may be do to the fact that i changed to a lower dosage and didnt take it at the same time everyday. On the good side it increases sex drive, motivation, at times quicker thought and deeper thought, and energy.

If your taking it for depression take the same amount at the same times everday and get the liquid if you want a lower dose then 5mg.Cutting the pills in half gives you uneven doses.

I stopped deprenyl because I feared downregulation and, somewhere in the back of my mind, the metabolites. I'm going to try the opposite route -- upregulating dopamine with nightly tryptophan.

trying to build a new cycle:









multi vitimin - NOW - 2 tabs/day
omega 3 - NOW - 6 gels/day (1000mg each)
ashwagandha - NOW - 2 tabs/day (450mg each)
bacopa - Planetary - 4 tabs/day (250mg each)
green tea - NOW - 1 tab/day (450mg each)

this is what i take on a con't basis for wellness.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

so far i've thought about:

aniracetam
dmae
deprenyl

your thoughts?

Edited by nomi, 06 August 2006 - 09:40 PM.

According to my info, bacopa has a U-shaped curve for effectivity. So, maybe 1g a day may be to much?

nomi's posting history is interesting. The viral marketing in this forum totally spoils the place -- it appears the field of nootropics is mostly accelerated by sales trolls, not real science.

nomi's posting history is interesting. The viral marketing in this forum totally spoils the place -- it appears the field of nootropics is mostly accelerated by sales trolls, not real science.

Jesus Cristo, when did girly men like you come into this forum? I just want my question answered and to recieve that i believe i should provide all information. But if it bothers you to the point where you disregard my question i'll accomdate you and delete the distributors out.

Nomi

According to my info, bacopa has a U-shaped curve for effectivity. So, maybe 1g a day may be to much?

I have not come across any info regarding that, but since you mention it ill look into it. thanks

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for BRAIN HEALTH to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

Okay, "nomi" edited out his advertisement. He still throws in Now foods and Planetary...but at least Now and Planetary don't use viral marketing tactics in this forum.

Dude: if you guys want to talk about nootropics, great! Please don't come here to promote a company or product unless you plan to do so in a respectful manner. Many might not know this, but I think you have to pay now to promote a nootropic supplier anywhere but the nootropic supplier forum (which should really be called the sales spam forum).