Jesus as a God?! excuse me........ (lol)

Wasn't Jesus a man??

Isn't the meaning of 'god' means the creator of all inter alia?

What created all the infinite things before he was born?

How come dear god is so humanistic- which turns him into such not divine?

Why does the holiest- monks- are not allowed to have sex if Jesus enjoyed it a lot...?

Why would god have the design of human? (maybe because human created god... mmm... (!)?)

How come he was born and not always were?

What's Mary then? mother of god?!

All these are just very few points on what makes it so absurd...

~Infernity

Edited by infernity, 11 May 2005 - 01:00 PM.

Why does the holiest- monks- are not allowed to have sex if Jesus enjoyed it a lot...?

While many scholars believe Jesus took a wife and had children (which means, presumably, that his descendents are among us), I don't recall the strict canon reporting anything of the sort. I'm not familiar with the Catholic apocrypha, so perhaps it is reported there, but not in the New Testament per se. So, um, no nookie for the Messiah.

Why would god have the design of human? (maybe because human created god... mmm... (!)?)

Of course, perhaps the question should be, why does a human have the design of god? Perhaps God is narcissistic or a bit egotistical. Or perhaps it was easier than creating a new design from scratch. Or perhaps, he has good intentions, and wants us to be like him.

What created all the infinite things before he was born?

Well, here you run into the various views of god's nature. Under the "trinity" Jesus was God, the same being as god the father and the holy ghost. I have never understood how this makes sense to people, but maybe it's just not my cup of tea. The best description I've heard, and it still doesn't make it understandable, but at least I give this guy credit for trying, was that God is like a cherry pie. You can cut a cherry pie into three slices (while it's still in the pie tin). Each slice is distinct, just as God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct aspects of God. But under the surface, the cherry pie filling all runs together, because God is one being.

Yeah, I don't buy it. But anyway, for what it's worth, there's one take on God's nature. The slice that was Jesus was a man, but that doesn't mean that God was a man who only existed after being born. What was he before being born? Don't forget, we've still got two slices of pie left. Well, I suppose god the father didn't have a physical body, so that'd make him a spirit. Maybe a spirit that looks like a man, or maybe just some all-encompassing force in the universe. Yeah, whatever.

Another take on God's nature is that there are in fact three persons or beings. Jesus had no body, but had a spirit, until he was born in the flesh. Only one "god" among this triumverate of sorts would be on earth at a time, and hence the holy ghost was not among men while Jesus was in the flesh. Well, except for when he came down "in the form of a dove" at Jesus's baptism, but we'll let that one slide for now.

At any rate, under this 3-being model, God the Father actually did exist before the universe was, and he did create everything. Jesus was literally his son, both in the spirit before he came to earth, and then in the flesh, as Jesus would only have gotten 23 chromosomes from Mary, so presumably he had 23 divine chromosomes, making him a sort of hybrid or chimera, half-man, half-God.

The Holy Ghost? Well, as you can guess, he gets the short end of the stick, because he didn't create the universe (but maybe helped with creating the earth), and he didn't get to come to earth and get a body. But he'll get his dues, right? I mean, he is a god, after all.

What's Maria then? mother of god?!

Well, under the trinity model, yeah, it's a sort of contradiction. She's the mother of her father.

Under the 3-being model, she's the daughter of God the Father, but the mother (in the flesh) of Jesus Christ the Son. No weird contradiction there. And presumably, as Jesus is also God's child, that would make Mary Jesus's brother as well. Brother in spirit, mother in flesh. God the Father would be the father in spirit and flesh of Jesus.

The Holy Ghost? Again, short end of stick here.

Jaydfox Said;

"Or perhaps, he has good intentions, and wants us to be like him."

So the entity which you worship has a gender? Were you taught that it was a he or you decided on your own? [mellow]
In Christianity they speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Why not Mother, Son (Refering to Jesus) and Holy Spirit? This shows the times that when women were and still are to this day considered less than a man in terms of importance and so on; Well, that is what I see.

Jaydfox Said;

"Or perhaps, he has good intentions, and wants us to be like him."

So the entity which you worship has a gender?  Were you taught that it was a he or you decided on your own? [mellow]
In Christianity they speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  Why not Mother, Son (Refering to Jesus) and Holy Spirit?  This shows the times that when women were and still are to this day considered less than a man in terms of importance and so on;  Well, that is what I see.

Heh, disadvantge of being a director: the quote button has an "Edit" button right next to it. I went to quote your reply, and then was confused when it didn't have the [*QUOTE] tags around it...

Anyway, why not Mother, Son, and Holy Spirit. Actually, this will be a segue off into the realm of a particular sect of Christianity, so it of course would not apply to the general body of Christians.

Why not a father and a mother? People constantly defile that which is holy, either for fun, or out of fear, or rage, or sorrow, or simply to lift themselves up, or because they're ignorant. And occassionally, just because they don't believe. But mostly for fun, or out of fear, or rage, or sorrow, etc. If you don't believe in god, why go to the bother of defiling his name? Well, other than that it's the *in thing* to say "God damn it!" as opposed to just "Damn it!", or "Jesus H. Christ!" as opposed to "What the fuck!". By the way, I never figured out Jesus's "middle initial" was H. Any ideas? I think I saw a movie where they said "Jesus Henry Christ", or maybe it was Harold. It was funny, but I still don't know the true story behind the H.

Anyway, with most of the U.S. and other predominately Christian countries taking the name of the Lord in vain (and I can only assume, given that it's one of the ten commandments, that this is not a new problem), I'm sure that our "heavenly mother" probably didn't want to be slandered as a whore and a bitch and a prostitute and a slut and a, well, all the bad things that women get called, and there are a lot more bad and degrading names for women. So perhaps out of *respect* for her, she is hardly if ever mentioned, if only to save her from blasphemy. Perhaps Catholics have Mary in her place, as a proxy for all the blasphemies that will be sent her way. Or perhaps the Catholics are trying desparately to get in touch with the part of themselves that believes in a heavenly mother, wife to God the Father, and they externalize that onto Mary, since after all, they did have a child together. Or perhaps, as Jesus was God's Son, and an actor in his place, perhaps Mary is an actor in place of the Father's wife, our heavenly Mother? Anyway, not a Catholic, so just guessing.

I believe that women are superior to men, especially spiritually/emotionally, and perhaps it is given to men to have the "higher" status in the church and in the "office" of god, not because men are superior, but to make them feel more equal. Women get to bear children, and men get what? Well, perhaps men get to be priests and gods? Who knows? Wasn't my decision. At any rate, if women had the children, and were the priests and were politically/socially superior to men, then being a man would truly suck. So perhaps, as bad as it is that men have been the dominant sex (though not as true these days), it would have been worse if it had been the other way around. But then we get into discussions of, the world would have been a better place if women had been in charge, etc., etc. Not my specialty. Like I said, I think women are superior.

Heh, sure Jay, [ironically] --> now all makes sense- now lets all go to pray! yei! [lol] [lol] lol
And when I said

Why does the holiest- monks- are not allowed to have sex if Jesus enjoyed it a lot...?

I meant that, for as long as I heard he wasn't such a good boy...........
Gee, people are so creative, comfort themselves by a descriptive imagination of who knows.

Rohan, you should read The Da Vinci Code (Dan Brown). It has some information on treatment to women. Very interesting however...

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Infernity, this can of worms takes time to sort. I suggest you prepare before opening.

Religious beliefs full of absurdities.


Religion and religious beliefs, I am inclined to be partial to this distinction that one is not necessarily the other.

For my part, I have religion but religious beliefs for me are so many cultural accretions which are many beautiful and humanistically advantageous to man and society, but many also not only absurd but catastrophic to life and health.

Now in each religion we have conflicting absurdities within its diverse factions.

Consider that for Catholics Mary is a perpetual virgin, before, during, and after the birth of Jesus; but for Protestants -- read carefully, Mary's virginity is very important and thus her honor and distinctive position in the universe, but only until the birth of Jesus, the God-man which both Catholics and Protestants maintain to be absolutely of the essence of Christianity.

After the birth of Jesus, for Protestants Mary can be anything even the lowly paid street-walker; not for Catholics, she continues to be a virgin, pure and sacred, and even deserving by a logical deduction the title of Mother of God.

So, you see, religion is okay, but religious beliefs are many absurd and even calamitousfor man and society. You can imagine how many flesh and limbs have been torn open, apart, owing to religious beliefs over Mary.

To be even-handed, Hindus worship cattle (holy cows, incarnations of Brahma) and you will see them roaming publicly around in every community, causing consternation among foreigners in their traffic rush.

But they don't hesitate to use cow milk for food, and utilize cattle droppings for fuel and home construction, and make cattle work their fields.

Susma

Mario, you are horribly ignorant my friend. You address topics far beyond your station.

Take the Hindu worship of cows and your understanding of it. What better thing to treat as holy than that which provides life? It is an almost certain law of life that that which is most used is most highly valued. I'm sure in the days of Hindu religion's birth, the cow was a very important part of survival. It provided milk, meat, and labor.

I will address you again once you've proved understand of my statements.

Susma,

I don't wanna make any comments until you do, just don't overlook jaguar's signature this time. It might apply this time.

stranger

Infernity,

Jesus is just one among the many avatars that have descended upon this mortal world. He wasn't the first,nor will He be the last.

As an Israelite, you should know better.

One day, you will look back upon this, and agree.

stranger

Infernity, this can of worms takes time to sort. I suggest you prepare before opening.

Um Jaguar, prepare...?

Susma,
The idea of Gos having a mother still looks absurd to me...
Jay's explanation sounds more reasonable, but still stupid in my humble opinion.

However, if there are three gods as one which is the God people mean by saying sentences with "God"?
All of them? Heh why doesn't they just use the term of "gods" instead? heh.

And again- Jesus as I remember reading somewhere on this absurd- enjoyed sex pretty often...

Another thing- the monks aspire everyone will be a loyal believer of Jesus. Supposing that will happen, and all will become monks (and that's forgetting for a second about the quest of immortality) - - everyone will die and won't have a next generation- so everyone will eventually die- and that's it. No more believers as no more humankind. So what came out of the holy? Nada.

I also tend to think that monks will say that we should act for immortality- as we will leave in heaven or some other crap, that the spirit will not die, and we shouldn't' try and play gods...

I say- supposing there's a god, if we are playing gods- that's just what the lord wanted and desired and predicted to happen...

Infernity,

Jesus is just one among the many avatars that have descended upon this mortal world.  He wasn't the first,nor will He be the last.

As an Israelite, you should know better.

One day, you will look back upon this, and agree.

stranger

[huh]

How did you conclude that?

1 thing- Never.

You're entering a realm ruled by misinterpretation, fools, power mongers, & cowards. Such places are rarely enjoyable to visit. By prepare I meant that this topic can be thought upon for centuries and no conclusion be made.

Basically, it's most likely a massive trail of misinterpretation, rumors, and "tall tales" curropting what were once philosophic guides to living a peaceful and happy life.

What a god! Food and service and sex!


The Brahma cattle, what a god! food, service, and in its temple, sex.

Holy good fortune. And materials for housing even. Terrific system. And fuel for heating and cooking withal.

Susma

Susma,

Hindus don't consider Brahman cattle, gods. They consider them,sacred animals.

Where did you hear about sex in its temple?

I know you are a good friend,but this time, I have to agree with Jaguar. You address topics far beyond your station(his words). Don't make fun of what you know nothing about.

I know the Hindu religion or philosophy seems odd to you. Likewise, the Hindus wonder why Jesus was nailed to a wooden cross. And even more, why the crucifix itself is worshipped.

This only proves what I have been telling you all along. This world is watched over by more than one Deity.

stranger


Infernity,

My dear child, are you of Arabian descent,living in Israel? Why such aversion to Christianity? Or even to the idea of any God?

You asked how I concluded that one day you might change. Well, when I was young, I used to think I was tough. I thought nothing could touch me,not even religion. Well, religion might not have taught me much,but the spirits sure have.

Never say never.

no offense,

stranger

stranger[/quote]

[quote name='stranger']Infernity,

My dear child,  are you of Arabian descent,living in Israel?  Why such aversion to Christianity?  Or even to the idea of any God?

You asked how I concluded that one day you might change.  Well, when I was young, I used to think I was tough.  I thought nothing could touch me,not even religion.  Well, religion might not have taught me much,but the spirits sure have.

Never say never.

no offense,

stranger[/quote]

Unbelievable, you're telling me you've fallen prey to to the jesus trick as well? - "The spirits have touched you", you say? -this sentance rings so familiar, throughout the ages.. was said by so many. Why the hell, in our post-modern little world, this delusional trend continues? spiritual apparitions, demons, aliens, spirits -- man is nothing but a biological machine, religion or "spiritual enlightenment" can be traced at certain brain areas.

Would you like to read more of your Savior ?

http://members.aol.c....html#issref112
http://members.aol.c....html#issref113
http://members.aol.c...t13.html#ref132
http://members.aol.c....html#issref164
http://members.aol.c....html#issref211
http://members.aol.c....html#issref212
http://members.aol.c...21.html#ref2113
http://members.aol.c....html#issref214
http://members.aol.c....html#issref221
http://members.aol.c....html#issref224
http://members.aol.c....html#issref231
http://members.aol.c...t23.html#ref233

I sometimes envy the men, who died with such melodrama - perpetuating their name.. and now, 2000 years later - hundreds of millions of followers, utterly (and quite ridicuosly) convinced in the divinity of one man. When you embrace Jesus, you revoke all other forms of divinity - - remember there are more than billion Muslims, who don't accept the divinity of Jesus, claiming he was misunderstood. How come your little god has accepted this? -Muslims believe Muhammad had divine revelations with archangel Gabriel, giving him the Koran and making him "the last of the prophets", also - the angel has tought our little Muhammad of the "Nasch" principle (In arab: cancellation), this means that the LAST revelation counts, making the formers obsolete (Judaism, Christianity) - -how come then you choose Christianty? -if you want to be fair, at least follow the advance of your god.. right now you're going to hell =) (according to Islam).

I myself have chosen atheism for this reason: when you accept one religion / faith / creed, you happen to deny all others. Who can tell who's the correct one? -this is absurd, nothing but silly selectivism, blind groping.
Once, while taking a walk within the wide region of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, I encountered a Muslim student, kneeling on the ground, facing the direction of the holiest Islamic city – Mecca (located in Saudi-Arabia) and praying fervently. Naturally I did not want to disrupt his ritual, so I’ve waited until he finished completely. He stood up, immediately caught my interest in him, and shyly smiled towards me, “We do this five times a day to honor Allah and the city Mecca in which the prophet Muhammad was born…”, he began explaining in a quite fluent Hebrew. I introduced myself, and without delay – we began having an interesting conversation about his belief.
I asked him the following hypothetical question: “How would you react and think if you’d come across a small party in the street, intensely busy in loud prayers for the ancient Greek Gods (the Olympians), and in the construction of a small temple to worship Zeus and Poseidon?”
”Well..”, Said the student, “Naturally I would have been tolerant to their actions, after all – it is the basic right of every man to believe in whatever he wishes to… nevertheless, it is a known fact that the Greek Pantheon is just a myth, how come they’re worshipping it? It is kind of funny and sad at the same time…”
His words cleared the way for the critical of all questions, and so I’ve asked: “Well, but how do you know?”. He quickly replied with surprising confidence: “What do you mean by asking how do I know? Everybody knows that the belief in multiple Gods is a total nonsense, we all know that there is only one and true God!”
“Indeed…?”, I’ve asked him seriously, because I certainly didn’t know at that moment if there is only, “one and true God” . Apparently, today - most followers of the three primary accepted Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) find themselves pronouncedly superior in comparison to other religious-followers on account of their very unique and relatively new principle: Monotheism; that is, the belief in a single all-powerful, all-knowing absolute God.
The opposite of monotheism is polytheism, or paganism, a belief in more than one God – which generally used to characterize the ancient civilizations of our past although it is still being practiced today (but scarcely in comparison to the dominant modern religions).
Today, most people think and refer to old religions and Gods as pure mythology, legends and fiction – they, by all means, belong to the past.
There are the exceptional individuals, however, who work and seriously research the history of religion, therefore paying attention and understanding the ancient religious-doctrines instead of mocking them and casting them aside, but still – their viewpoint is purely scientific, marking the beliefs as pure fiction and mythology.
Generally, common people – secular or modern-religious - scorn the beliefs of their primitive forefathers, never imagining how men of the past could have ever accepted them. They laugh at them, finding their Gods, concepts and rituals quite amusing or utterly ridiculous. For example, what is your opinion on men having sexual relations with their cattle in order to satisfy their Gods of fertility?
Most faithful individuals of today would have seen this rite as total nonsense or sin, while believers of the ancient Moabite Religion would have undoubtedly seen it as a vastly important act to honor the Gods, virtually their will. On the other hand, if we’d go back about 2500 years in time, and ask the faithful individuals of the past for their opinions on the religious rituals of today’s modern religions (e.g. Baptism, Circumcision) – they’d laugh at them, seeing them as absurd, and not the true will of their Gods.
The modern Bedouin-Islamic doctrine, for example, suggests that murder is acceptable when it stands against the honor of the family, as God (“Allah”) says so. If a Bedouin girl disgraces the family (for instance, by running away, forsaking tradition or going after her heart’s calling) she deserves the punishment of death (even today), this is “the will of God”.
Christianity, on the other hand, would not have put her to death, merely reprimanding her (as its God – “Jehovah” is merciful and forgiving!) – Nowadays. Nevertheless, if we’d go a few centuries back, we would have witnessed a whole different verdict. As a matter of fact, Christianity used to treat infidel women (or “witches”) with most severity – simply by burning them alive, as naturally “directed” from the Lord.
Who is right and who errs? –What is the true will of the God/s? The honest answer would be: We don’t know! Truth to tell, there was never a single moment throughout human history in which a consensuses about the true will of God/the Gods and his/their doctrine has ever existed among men. This is firstly due to religion’s numerousity - there were always many sects and various religious-doctrines, each pulling to its own distinctive way. And secondly, due to religion’s constant alternation – virtually a changing trend. These two principles indubitably prove us that religion is man-made and by no means God-given.
At any rate, when examined carefully, it is very easy to deduce that there is no absolute Theism in our world. Any believer of a certain religion and deity is a non-believer to numerous other religions and deities. For example, one who accepts God and Jesus Christ as his savior - - will never worship and believe in the Egyptian God Osiris or in the Norse God Thor, and will undoubtedly reject all rituals, moral laws and beliefs associated with their doctrines. In other words, all theists are partially atheistic when it comes do different religions and deities – in order to accept a specific religion/deity, one must reject and disqualify all others. Sthephen F. Roberts, a famous atheist of the 20th century described the difference between theists and atheists in his famous quote:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Therefore, choosing to embrace a specific religion and a specific deity is essentially preposterous, and by no means works with Reason – as it asserts that belief should only be applied to evidential, factual matters and never to ambiguous ones, such as belief in God/s and religion.
Anyway, there is a big substantial resemblance between the common modern monotheistic religions to the dead and forgotten pagan ones - faith in the unknown. And that clearly explains why the student could not have answered my question in a factual manner; he simply doesn’t have the evidence, as faith in its rudiments – lacks the need for it. So what is the difference between choosing to worship the Christian/Jewish/Islamic single God and the Greek or Roman numerous Gods? Which path is truer? For no one has ever demonstrated the nonexistence of Zeus or Jupiter, or any other deities from our past – but undoubtedly - they have fewer followers today.
Obviously religion and deities are similar to fashion in their nature - - both are constantly changing depending on popular-demanded preferences. As Thomas Jefferson once put out: "And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter..."
Actually, it is quite derisive and unreasonable when we humans purport to know the true and absolute divine will, all the more so – purport to know the very nature and characteristics of God/deities. As previously mentioned, merely the fact that there are numerous different “ultimate” religious-doctrines, codes of behavior, and religious moral laws in our world proves that the basic concept of religion is fundamentally fallible and ambiguous, never factual. Not to mention the rueful fact that people virtually fight and murder each other in the name of their unique religious belief or deity. This puts humanity in quite an extremely ludicrous light.

Ameliorate, without limits!
-Daniel S.

You're entering a realm ruled by misinterpretation, fools, power mongers, & cowards. Such places are rarely enjoyable to visit. By prepare I meant that this topic can be thought upon for centuries and no conclusion be made.

Basically, it's most likely a massive trail of misinterpretation, rumors, and "tall tales" curropting what were once philosophic guides to living a peaceful and happy life.

Ah, I get ya Jaguar... Well, still pretty interesting, I still don't have too much to say about it- it's just I think it will take infinite time to explain me in a rational way how my argues about this are fallacious and all that Jesus thing could possibly be done...
Whatever... Maybe they will get conclusions- I always did.


Susma, err I'm sorry, I am running out of time :\ I did not forget.

Infernity,

My dear child, are you of Arabian descent,living in Israel? Why such aversion to Christianity? Or even to the idea of any God?

Well stranger,
First - no. I am not Arabian at all! As I am originally from Holland.
I have nothing special in my 'struggle against Jesus', I do treat him as all the supposedly gods- nonsense to me.

You asked how I concluded that one day you might change. Well, when I was young, I used to think I was tough. I thought nothing could touch me,not even religion. Well, religion might not have taught me much,but the spirits sure have.

Well, I can tell you the whole me is strongly based, and I cannot fall for a religion belief- not till I get proves- which will turn it scientific.

That's just a comfort for all unexplainable phenomena, and the being indolent for seeking the real based answers.

After life, heaven, hell, etcetera - - Just a comfort for the ultimate end, the unacceptable end which shall take us if we die.

God - a source of hope- all we have to do for having a good life- with ever lasting soul journey- is to serve the God.

I ask- why god needs slaves if he is omnipotent?
I answer- pride.
Add- pride is something humanistic.
Pride was even determined by humans.
Which point on God being a humanistic creation. As a comfort- as to the above argues.

There was never proves to God, as there are no prove for it's nonexistence.
So why supposing it is there? That's like making up! Edit- That's not just *like* making up - - that's making up!
I can make up these stuff as much as easy. The problem is, God- explains supposedly everything, so there's nothing left to create...

As the annoying thing in the argue of existence of God is, that technically- that's possible- - if god can do everything and responsible to everything- then things may not have answers since the god's ways are mystery as the he's wish.
But I say- that's absurd- just an easy ride for escaping the reality, and living with that foolish comfort.

That's referring only to the God from the bible I suppose. Simply total mystery, as something- everywhere, know all, no shape etcetera...
Heh - I think those who were inspired with God thing- were simply looking for a name to the universe...

What's god?- He? She? It? all are humanistic terms. So is God and the inspiration of it.

Never say never.

So said my grandfather. But in another content.

no offense,

stranger

Was not offended.


Daniel, great to see you aboard again [thumb]
I fully agree there.

Heh personally- if I was forced to believe in some divinity's power - I'd choose to 'believe' in the Greek's Gods, from the Olympic. Heh It's just I love all the myths and fantasied legends. Still absurd to 'know' this is true.
I laugh out of thinking on all inspirations to God.
Hmm, also the Egyptians Gods are pretty cool.

I think I love more all the stories of more than one God. Divine stories, in contra to One god and humankind... So poor in my humble opinion. As all of Gods are just our imaginary- We are the gods. IT.


The most 'reasonable' God, is the god of Jews- - which I believe is another term for simply THE UNIVERSE WE FRIGGIN' LIVE IN. *EVERYTHING* .

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Religion should be rational, provisional, and optional.


For myself, my religion is rational, provisional, and optional.


I am a postgraduate Catholic: post as in past and graduate as on graduation day we literaly march off from the safety and certainty of the campus into the world of risks, incertainties, fears, where we have to mold our destinies in life, making use to the utmost our patience, our intellect, all in accordance with our embrace of free inquiry and free choice.


Obviously religion and deities are similar to fashion in their nature - - both are constantly changing depending on popular-demanded preferences. -- Inarchunite

I am there with you brother. For me religion is as necessary as coiffure, couture, and of course cuisine.

Everyone here, I invite you to think about that insight from Susma, doctor of philosophy from the university of the street.


Susma

We laugh together.


Dear Stranger:

Would you believe that if we ever get together, the Hindu deities and Susma, we would have a grand time rolling on the floor, bursting our bellies, laughing loud over what I say about Hindu deities and Hindu religious observances.

When you and Jaguar get to be intellectually and spiritually and rationally mature and ripe, you will enjoy religious beliefs and practices in history and still around the world today, as I do, and together with all the Christian Trinity plus Jesus and Mary, and also Mohammad and Allah, and of course, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

Remember, the deities above us petty and frail and foible-prone humans are not subject to nitpicking in their transcendental minds and hearts.

I offer here a tribute to the Hindu Trinity, with their graphic representation here (they will love it):


Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva



Susma

Hindus don't consider Brahman cattle, gods. They consider them,sacred animals.

Where did you hear about sex in its temple?

I know you are a good friend,but this time, I have to agree with Jaguar. You address topics far beyond your station(his words). Don't make fun of what you know nothing about.

I know the Hindu religion or philosophy seems odd to you. Likewise, the Hindus wonder why Jesus was nailed to a wooden cross. And even more, why the crucifix itself is worshipped.

This only proves what I have been telling you all along. This world is watched over by more than one Deity.

Inarchunite,

What's going on? Not much here.

Well, you present a pretty good argument. Some very reasonable points.
Your concern is admirable. The religious people might be in delusion. The blind leading the bling. In many instances, that is the case. There are many false preachers and many questionable 'religions'. I understand your acceptance of atheism. I have nothing against it.

When I said to Infernity that I had been 'touched' by spirits, I didn't mean that I had accepted religion at a traveling salvation show. What I meant to say was that the spirits were the first ones to 'awaken' me to the reality of the paranormal phenomena. I'm not talking about lights turning on and off by themselves. I'm talking about actually seeing the switches moving 'on their own'. Things dissappearing and reappearing in other locations, after knowing full well that there had not being anyone around during such occurrences. Stuff like that. The spirits, when they want your attention, they will do the most unimaginable things. They will make you understand that this world of 'solid' matter is not as solid as we believe. And they'll you let you know,in no uncertain terms, that their reality is superior to ours.

The main difference between ourselves and them is that we don't want to die. They don't have to worry about that. They've gone over the threshold already. To us, going over the threshold seems like walking the high wire over Niagara Falls.
They know where we stand in relation to where they stand,so , we can't compete.

The spirits are not all that bad. Well, there are some mischieveous ones,but usually, when a person is willing to work with them, they will come around to guide such person in his pathway during this lifetime. This wolrd is only a school, and we made the trek here to learn each his own lessons.

I can go on and on,but I know this is boring stuff for you, so I'll give it a rest.
My intention in these forums here is to share with those that believe in this matters.
It is not my intention to intrude into the ideas of the atheists or agnostics.
It is of no concern to me how they live their lives. Religion,or its practice, is not mandatory. Free will is still allowed. Also, I share mostly what I have experienced,and not what I have read.

You offered a very clear discourse. Unfortunately, we don't hold the same views.

Thanks anyway,

stranger

Temple sex in Hinduism?

I thought it is common knowledge that there is temple sex in Hinduism, but some people are not aware of this feature of Hinduism.

Here is the story of one girl coerced into temple prostitution.

COMMITTEE ON THE ELIMINATION OF RACIAL DISCRIMINATION (CERD)

Sixty-first session

Thematic discussion on discrimination on the ground of descent
Geneva, 8 August 2002


MY STORY AS DEVADASI: ENTRENCHED FORCED PROSTITUTION

    I am Hajamma. I am born into the Madiga community, one of the Dalit communities in India.

  We follow the ritual of dedicating girls to Goddess Ellamma in our community. The girl so dedicated is ritually a Goddess, but lives life lesser than a woman, lesser than other Dalits and any human being. My story is the story of thousands of Dalit women dedicated as ‘devadasi/jogini’-the handmade of Gods.

    I joined the village school, through the interest of a local Dalit teacher and dropped out in Grade VI.

    When I was 11 years old and had not attained puberty, all of sudden, for reasons unknown to me, there was discussion of dedicating me a Jogini. Within a week everything was decided and arranged. The landlord extended Rs.5000 towards expenses.

    The marriage of Jogini is a formality. It does not matter whom she is married to. It is a passage allow her to be used by anyone for sexual enjoyment. The man who visit her, however has no obligation either to her or her children. He does not acknowledge the children and refuse to recognize them as his children. He would not called up if he ill-treats her, comes to her drunk at any time of day or night, would not give her any money or forces her to support his ways.

    They asked an old man to marry me, who refused saying his daughter is studying in my class. Another one also refused. Finally my mother’s brother son-Sankarappa agreed to marry me. He was already married with three children.

    An old Jogini, close to my family, supported me to refuse being made Jogini. I had neither knowledge nor courage to stand against my family and village. But I refused to be made a Jogini in the temple, which places extra purity measures on me. I was made finally one before our home.

    By right the man who marries the Jogini has the right of the first night with her. Shankarappa did not however insist on this. But he was goaded by others in my village, for not enforcing his right on me. He tried to do so one night, but gave into my pleading. He left the village the next day.

    As a young girl, I remember picking up quarrels with many men in the village. Form old to young, from Dalits to upper castes, they would come to our house, saying they would pay me a bag of paddy, half a kilogram of silver and clothes, if I would agree to have them for the nights. While I did not understand what they meant, I was hurt at being singled out for this humiliation among other girls of my age. Even today I forget their demands when I come across them in the village.

    When I was about 18 years old, I studied to intermediate in our village. We wanted to get married to each other. But marrying Jogini woman was not acceptable. Men not marry and set up a family with her. We ran to Maharashtra to try and set up a life there. But our reality would catch up with us – that I am Jogini, that I am already married to another man, that I am a keep for Lakshmaiah.

    Every time we come to village, the village would hold a meeting to fine us for wanting to marry and live together. What accepted as normal for any girl, was impossible for me in my life.

    I was pregnant and had a son. There tremendous pressure from Lakshmaiah’for his marriage. The belief that is that if someone live permanently like a husband with a Jogini, he will dies. At one point of time I agreed to let go Lakshmaiah to get married elsewhere. But this did not happen.

    The life of the Jogini ends when she is about 35 years old. Health fails and they have no other means of support. No one would further come to her and she is forced to fend for herself. Many end up into age old profession of prostitution, selling their bodies for less than Rs.10 a day. Many end up in the red-light areas of our cities.

    The worst part of this life of the children. Children have no rightful father they can claim. In the school records, they do not fill up this column and are immediately set apart for insult and taunts. Children in their direct, cruel manner hurt them beyond repair.

    The system is legally abolished, but the practice continues. Temples and festivals specially for promoting the system go on under the every eyes of police and authorities. Civil society continues to use Jogini women as they need. The government has relief and rehabilitation measures for women who have been made joginis. To get them is no routine matter. Thousands of rupees allocated for Jogini relief and rehabilitation is unused, misused and even returned without releasing them to the Jogini women.

    My aim in life is to work for other Dalit women trapped into the Jogini system like me and see an end to the system in my lifetime.     

IDSN at the UN 

IDSN at the EU

I am working on the connection between the teaching of Hinduism that the actual life is illusion, with the low regard for women and their use for sex in the temple. Maybe there is some case to be made on that score.

Susma

Susma,

I wasn't aware of these practices. I guess being a Hindu is not synonimous with being spiritually aware. But then again, neither is being Catholic. Just look at the number of pedophile 'priests' out there.

No wonder people are sick of being preached to. I don't blame them.

In my dealings with the Indian guru, the one thing he forbade absolutely was practice of any sexual activity. I wasn't even allowed to think about women. For five long years I had to live like a monk. My friends thought I was really crazy. What they didn't know about, was the punishment I would get if I disobeyed the orders. It wasn't easy. There is great difference between a teacher here in this world and one outside of it. The ones in this world break them or bend them for their convenience. The ones outside of this dimension are not prone to such stupid doings.

Don't paint all Hindu Indians with the same brush. There are false doctrines in all the lands fo this world.

stranger

I don't get you stranger.

Heh I really think that you wanted it to be so- all the spirits thing, and you just imagined it...

There are infinite unexplainable phenomena, as I do believe energy can spread and once in a while turn something unbelievable to reality, as these things just happens. And they all have explanation!

I don't have enough background - yet at least, so I don't have the right terms to use although I really know what I'm talking about!
Energy can turn out with overloads and instability ans cause few phenomena which possible only when there is no balance. Obviously- that's rare, since nature aspires to have balance.

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

Inarchunite,

What's going on?  Not much here.

Well, you present a pretty good argument.  Some very reasonable points.
Your concern is admirable.  The religious people might be in delusion.  The blind leading the bling.  In many instances, that is the case.  There are many false preachers and many questionable 'religions'.  I understand your acceptance of atheism.  I have nothing against it. 

When I said to Infernity that I had been 'touched' by spirits, I didn't mean that I had accepted religion at a traveling salvation show.  What I meant to say was that the spirits were the first ones to 'awaken' me to the reality of the paranormal phenomena.  I'm not talking about lights turning on and off by themselves.  I'm talking about actually seeing the switches moving 'on their own'. Things dissappearing and reappearing in other locations, after knowing full well that there had not being anyone around during such occurrences.  Stuff like that.  The spirits, when they want your attention, they will do the most unimaginable things.  They will make you understand that this world of 'solid' matter is not as solid as we believe.  And they'll you let you know,in no uncertain terms, that their reality is superior to ours. 

The main difference between ourselves and them is that we don't want to die. They don't have to worry about that.  They've gone over the threshold already.  To us, going over the threshold seems like walking the high wire over Niagara Falls.
They know where we stand in relation to where they stand,so , we can't compete.

The spirits are not all that bad.  Well, there are some mischieveous ones,but usually,  when a person is willing to work with them, they will come around to guide such person in his pathway during this lifetime.  This wolrd is only a school, and we made the trek here to learn each his own lessons. 

I can go on and on,but I know this is boring stuff for you, so I'll give it a rest.
My intention in these forums here is to share with those that believe in this matters.
It is not my intention to intrude into the ideas of the atheists or agnostics. 
It is of no concern to me how they live their lives.  Religion,or its practice, is not mandatory.  Free will is still allowed.  Also, I share mostly what I have experienced,and not what I have read. 

You offered a very clear discourse.  Unfortunately, we don't hold the same views. 

Thanks anyway,

stranger

Dear stranger,
Thanks for the prompt, thorough and serious reply. (I appreciate the fact that you've went over all of my argument, instead of just revoking it prior to even looking [as many theists do], so - well done! after all, many sacred texts texts teach us that "nothing ventured, nothing gained...).

Like always, I'd like to derive from personal experience. Years ago, when I was much much younger [at mind especially], I went into a very curious lecture. The lecturer was no other than Adrian Dvir, the famous "spirit - talker" here in Israel (www.adriandvir.com), the man has written two books concerning his deal with entities (spirits, aliens etc'..) he claims that it all begun in his youth, when he noticed the spirit of his grandfather walking in his house and asking for the paper. (you can read his story in his website). First, he tried denying it - but later, it has become a fact of life.

I quote from his site:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
was born in 1958 in Bucuresti Romania and emigrated to ISRAEL in 1965.
I am an Electronic and Computer Science Engineer, married with two children.
Several years ago I started to Communicate ("Channeling") with entities (spirits). During 1993 I had my first communication with an Alien from another dimension or realm.
In 1994 I met Haya levy , a medium and healer herself that collaborate with an Alien medical team. I saw the alien Medical Team at her apartment. The Aliens recommended me to take a Healing course, which I did in 1995) and finally the Aliens opened an alien clinic in my apartment. Till today I treat hundreds of people together with the alien medical team.


The Alien Medical Team and their equipment exist in another dimension or other realm, which is a parallel universe to our own. This fact make the Aliens invisible to humans. Many psychic people can see the Aliens and some can also communicate telepathically with them.

I used my daily contact with the aliens to learn as much as I could about them.

The Aliens collaborated and answered most of my questions They implanted in me a Telepathic Communication Device that connected me to their Telepathic Central System and encouraged me to ask as many questions as I want.>
I documented all the dialogs with the Aliens and I published most of them in my two books. I double check the information received from the Aliens by asking the same question, first using my own telepathic ability than other mediums as Haya Levy, Uri Gal, Hagai Katz. That way I was able to double check information.
Most of the dialogs, and some of the most interesting events and medical cases, treated by the aliens, are documented in my first book: "X3 Healing Entities and Aliens" that I published in Hebrew in 1998. The Book was translated to English and is now available in book stores and online order.

------------------------------------------------------


I was literally fascintated by his lecture, of aliens and entities in other dimensions, always protecting us - - this has been so assuring... Nevertheless, as a natural born Reasonist - I never yielded to faith and had to test this for myself. (As Kant once said, "Sapre Aude!" have courage to use your own intelligence; I did not believe everything I hear based on testimonies solely). The man told an enchanting story on Alien clinics in his house, treating patients in their latent layers of spirit -- and indeed! many testimonies of Adrian's patients have strengthened his claims (later I discovered the powerful curative force of auto-suggestion). Moreover, there were many entity-healers like Adrian claiming for the same thing! seeing the exact same aliens and spirits at the same time. These guys were not liars, they TRULY have believed what they were seeing (Adrian was a very successful computer engineer, he did not do this for the money, nor fame [ as he was very shy and latent, and never boasted in his feats]. I'd like to add that I remember myself WANTING to believe very much, as what could possibly better than the assurance of the survival of our essence? (you may call it 'soul' if you'd like).
I took the phone number of Adrian Dvir, and decided to test things for myself. I called the man to his cellphone, and what started as a prank - has suddenly became an ongoing experience of several months. I claimed to be Forth, than Fenix - aliens from different worlds, he bought the story - -first very skeptic, and did not want to talk , but then- after consulting his "spiritual entities" - he decided to continue our affair, as they have ironically ratified my existence, claiming I'm a genuine alien! Adrian consulted with various other spirtual healers, and all have ratified this. You can read on the alien story here: http://etmedical.com/forth.htm . all of the information, conversations are with me, and only me.
Naturally, i derived names and facts from things I know (computer games: Star Control, Starcraft etc' . hehe..). The bottom line is that Adrian wasn't a fraud! his intentions were good, I knew the real man, his mission... unfortunately, like the rest of his 'spirtual' friends - the man was delusional. Some region of his brain, going bad, has made him see the apparitions - writing two full books on his experience with entities, appear on MANY television and radio shows, he really believed what he said... only I knew the sad truth, as his aliens and entities often claimed "Yes, we are in constant contact with the Kliendcontlar[the alien race i invented]...". not just his, Uri Gal's (another spirtualist and friend of ADrian): here I quote Adrian Dvir from his website:
"At 18:00 I visited Uri. He said that his aliens medical team disclosed that the expected reinforcement ship reached the Kliendcontlar space ship near Uranus."
It was ME all along! little shrewd Daniel Stein, purporting to be a contact man of a far civilization, getting easy approval and acknoledgement from his spirtiual friends! How ironic.

Adrian wasn't a healthy person. He did not trust conventional medicine, and have allowed his entities friends to treat him in the seemingly injured layers of his existence. Sadly, this did not work, as dear Adrian passed away at age 46. His spirtual friends could not have helped him, so it would seem (not even with their advanced alien technologies, according to him).
Seeing is believing, after all..
How sad is the fact that he died so early, and I did not get the chance I wanted to expose myself, tell him all of the facts - - explain that his brain works a bit differently, and that does not necessarily ratify the existence of other dimensions and entities... - I wonder if he had ever seen "A beautiful Mind" (with Russel Crow)...

-Daniel S.

Kudos for daring.


You really did that, faking to have contacts with aliens, and Adrian took you seriously, and started having contacts with those aliens?

Now, can we say the same thing of Stranger, what you observed of Adrian?

I must salute you for your daring.

There was a guy mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles, he wanted to invoke the name of Jesus to cast out demons, but the demons turned on him and tore his clothings to tatters, because he did not have the faith in Jesus, he was just faking.

Of course you don't have to take the genuinity of that account for truly dependable history.

I am glad to meet someone who has the guts to take on the spirits -- in a way.

So, tell me, in all those accounts of sincere people having contacts with spirits, demons, gods, etc., aliens and extra-terrestrials, either they are faking, or they have auto-suggested themselves into hallucination and delusion, or they are brain-touched, to say it diplomatically, namely, brain-damaged.

Susma

[lol]

Daniel,

Even after I heard this story in person already and had a good laugh I was entertained to read it again [tung]

Hehe.


Susma, may I ask you something?
I know you have the self agreement of just realizing from all perspectives, which fine by me. Now can you also do this: contrast yourself? I mean as you agree with opposite arguments and remain reasonable, can you be one with both argues and one with another fact- which is that you are contrasting yourself?


Yours truthfully
~Infenity

2 1st God IV re - -still Y.L.L.I*

Susma,
I'm impressed -
You seem to be on the right track after all.

Two thumbs up, then.

-Daniel S.

To Infern and Inarchunite: I just posted the similar message below and it came out and then it disappeared. Did you notice that? I will try to write it again and send it, to see whether the grim reaper is at work again.

------------------

Please, give one instance.


Dear Infern:

First, have I made a fool of myself for taking the message of Inarchunite on his experiment, seriously, hook, line, and siniker? That is the price I have to pay for being a member here of bona fides. Or as the most famous or infamous thinker of your race puts it: an Israelite in whom there is no guile.

Now, as regards my being self-contrary or contradictory, would you be accommodating to give me one instance of such an actuation from my part.


By the way, do you now have the time to do me the favor I asked of you, namely, go over the two texts below and find out what you can make out from them?

(Text 1, focus on the third sentence.) It is common to assume that we are dealing with a highly intelligent book when we cease to understand it. Profound ideas cannot, after all, be explained in the language of children. Yet the association between difficulty and profundity might less generously be described as a manifestation in the literary sphere of a perversity familiar from emotional life, where people who are mysterious and elusive can inspire a respect in modest minds that reliable and clear ones do not.

(Text 2) Such contradictory articulations of reality and desire - seen in racist stereotypes, statements, jokes, myths - are not caught in the doubtful circle of the return of the repressed. They are the effects of a disavowal that denies the differences of the other but produces in its stead forms of authority and multiple belief that alienate the assumptions of ‘civil’ discourse. If, for a while, the ruse of desire is calculable for the uses Of discipline soon the repetition of guilt, justification, pseudo-scientific theories, superstition, spurious authorities, and classifications can be seen as the desperate effort to ‘normalize’ formally the disturbance of a discourse of splitting that violates the rational, enlightened claims of its enunciatory modality. The ambivalence of colonial authority repeatedly turns from mimicry - a difference that is almost nothing but not quite - to menace - a difference that is almost total but not quite. And in that other scene of colonial power, where history turns to farce and presence to ‘a part’ can be seen the twin figures of narcissism and paranoia that repeat furiously, uncontrollably.

Okay?

Susma

PS Let's see if this message get lost also.

inarchunite, I saw your list of referenced sites and thought this might help tidy up a bit: http://www.evilbible.com/

--The tit-tat that was going on about holy cows being worshipped... semantic variations of "worship" are being assumed here...for "worshipping the cross" also. Assumptions are somewhat of an evil...or should I say a perpetuator of obstructive fallacies. Cows are holy because, well, someone mentioned their cultural value already so go back and read there. The cross is an implement for those that need their hand held when away from their bearded man picture on their wall back home; but it is not worshipped...it's merely an idealized form that Christians project meaning onto for spiritual mental focus. I've heard of people masturbating to pottery catalogs but most people would think of grabbing some other kind of reading material for that purpose...TABULA RASA, beby. Your head is full of it.
--As for Hinduism, I have read many places that the so called deities are nothing more than aspects of the absoluteness of "being", aka "God"; be careful not to read it as "absoute Being" like some ethereal man-in-the-cloudscuz that kind of "wait until after death to meet Him in Heaven" kind of thinking has put mankind through a whole lot of wasteful shit. gawd i hate televangelists. and mass murder 'in the name of.."
--Same thing for Jesus: if it really physically happened, who knows, but the worth of the teachings is the same, if not more so, when Jesus is considered as a man coming in-to the full awareness of the absoluteness of being and then as a model for doing the same. So much of the original intention has been marred through the centuries for personal profit and power by literate guilt-sowers that all you can do now is take the basics and toss the rest into the garbage. Think of Jesus as a student of all the world's religions available during the nearly 25 years he is missing from the Bible.
--The Virgin Mary is called the "starry faced virgin" sometimes...hmm...starry faced...like the night sky? ...a womb of infinite potential from which a fatherless child is born(big bang starts from nothing, right?)
--The Holy Trinity: Sun(Father), the Earth(Son), and Life(Holy Ghost...electrochemical fields hang as an "aura" in, around, and between living things,,,even just magnetic fields and physics that define non-visible forces that allow life to exist and the unseen inter-/intra-connectivity of systems, liken this more diffuse variation of "holy ghost" as the space and draw between a bee and a flower, you and your next breath...even here, the metaphor of the Virgin Mary can be overlayed to gain understanding(breath from 'infinite life-giving environment' into your lungs to give oxygen to the "Sun" of your heart, and makes your circulatory system(solar system) go 'round and produce the "Son" of its workings(you, your mind, your personality) and then the social, anthropological, economic, etc systems to which you are then connected(holy ghost) ................................Sooooo, Jesus would seem to be one of the three major contexts(source/fuel, location, motivation/connectivity) that comprise "God" and could hardly be considered laughable, more like necessary.

All of these symbolic forms and systems are just that...models for understanding and what is not yet known.

People! you MUST read The Da Vinci Code book!!! everything about the falicious of Christian and about treatment to women, and about symbols, and so much of valuable information!!
~

and Life(Holy Ghost...electrochemical fields hang as an "aura" in, around, and between living things,,,even just magnetic fields and physics that define non-visible forces that allow life to exist and the unseen inter-/intra-connectivity of systems, liken this more diffuse variation of "holy ghost" as the space and draw between a bee and a flower, you and your next breath...even here, the metaphor of the Virgin Mary can be overlayed to gain understanding(breath from 'infinite life-giving environment' into your lungs to give oxygen to the "Sun" of your heart, and makes your circulatory system(solar system) go 'round and produce the "Son" of its workings(you, your mind, your personality) and then the social, anthropological, economic, etc systems to which you are then connected(holy ghost) ................................Sooooo, Jesus would seem to be one of the three major contexts(source/fuel, location, motivation/connectivity) that comprise "God" and could hardly be considered laughable, more like necessary.

All of these symbolic forms and systems are just that...models for understanding and what is not yet known.

I just couldn't ignore that, but liplex, you forgot to put the ")" of the end somewhere, that's because of putting to many sentences together. Reminds me of myself when I have too much to say.

Try to use paragraphs (heehee look who's talking).
~

Susma,
I'm impressed -
You seem to be on the right track after all.

Two thumbs up, then.

-Daniel S.

Daniel, hehe can't you see? Susma shall understand every argue since he takes all sides.
As he can in the same way be theist...
~

Susma!
Sometimes silence is best, not because there is nothing to say, but because some things are too deep for words...
The first text- how true. As I found you and me having lots of things in common.
I am impressed you can possibly see me. And you kinda feel about me what I feel about myself. And I don't wanna boast or anything.
I am talking generally about the way you see me too.

Things like the first paragraph is actually an example itself for what's wroten.
As I doubt people can understand the way you want them to or the way it is if they are not thinking the same way. And I believe I did , As you know I do.
I am thanking you for being who you are and seeing that.

Amazing is the fact that only uploading can make such thing clear to everyone.
But not the philosophy beyond- it comes only after the uploading. And second uploading will cause anothe one to explain the philosophy beyond the next etcetera...

Sorry for dissapoint, all I can say- great mind you got there, and I understand your passion.

I am not sure if you are like me- or the founder of "mes" as there is only one- then THE founder

I never thought someone can see that side of me.
I don't think you are like me, as you are praising me for so, but you are very special noticing that.

Is it like you can see I realize but have some block understanding on your own?

Or is it a test? to presume I am the one you think?

I'll soon work on the second text.
Sorry for not being able to summerize to one sentence, "sometimes silence............".
Silence- or infinite philosophy.

That's why I'm after the meaning of life. To make it all- in one word.

I know you too.

Thank you infily

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

someday

Daniel,

It is a rather funny story, I must admit. What I don't quite understand is how it was possible for you to assure Adrian that you could find out about any new phone number that he could get?

How were you able to make up so many characters, Zepher, Zorat,etc?

Maybe Adrian really was crazy, I don't know.

As far as I'm concerned, I know I sound maybe crazier than him(Adrian), my dealings with the spirits started out with the spirit of an Indian swami and the spirit of my late brother. How could you explain the exchange of talk between me and my brother? We've talked about things that only he and I know about.( He lived from 1949 to 1968).

I talk mostly about the different Deities but it was never my intention to learn about them in the first place. All my life I have believed in the Judeo-Christian God and in Jesus, but I have never liked going to church. About the other Deities, well, they have come forward of their own accord. They are not so much concerned with teaching me religion as much as they are concerned with letting me know how they relate to one another. These Gods ,while they have their own unique identities, are somehow related to a main one. The word closest to describing this interconnection is Hierarchy. The Hindus call that assemblage of Kings(and Queens) ,the Universal Form. They all 'work' for the main God.

I know it sounds crazy, especially when this comes from a non-Hindu. Don't you think I should be praising only my God,(Jehovah,Yahweh)? The major Hindu Gods ,it seems, are 'older' than the one I call God(Father). Actually, it's not that it seems, that is what they have told me.

I know you would advise me to dismiss all this seeming illusions,but then there's one that I cannot totally ignore,or dismiss. And I'm glad that he's a friend--the Lord of Death,Lord Yamarajah. I know you'll think that he is also just an illusion,but , I know better. I have dealt too long with those on the other side to believe that I am invulnerable to death.

When they want to impart their will, they never lose.

stranger


Susma,

I was thinking about the picture you posted about the Goddess and the demigods.

There is one thing wrong with it. And that is the artist's fault. That happens when you can draw and paint,but you don't know the subject well.

In the painting, I stated that the devotee(Arjuna) praying to Krsna was doing so because he had been shocked by the appearance of the Universl Form. The rendition of the main character(the Goddess) doesn't appear angry. She seems at ease and would more aptly be perceived by one in peaceful meditation. Arjuna,from what the story tells,and from what the artist was trying to depict(the Battle of Kuruksetra) was supposed to be scared out of his wits. A more appropiate depiction of the Universal Form would have been an angry Lord Visnu along with either Lord Shiva(the destroyer) and the lord of death.

Just thought I should mention it.

stranger