Membership Dues

I moved this from "Moderation by full members" because it is off topic.

Then I take it you would be in flavor of raising the rate for students? I see there is still no clarification on what defines a student. The moderation seems fine.

$5.00 per month is nothing now, I just spent $10.00 for a subway sandwich, and Imminst has paypal setup already to take $5.00 per month out of your bank/visa account.

Alcor defines a student as 12 credits per semester for half off, but membership dues at Alcor is $520 per year and they must have a copy of the transcript from the school as proof.
I don't know the rules here to prove a student but $5.00 isn't much to worry about.

Imminst can't reach it goals if anyone isn't willing to help. If 4,000 basic members come here then a goal of gaining 1000 full members (1/4 of the total) should be a reasonable goal. How many basic members are paying more than $5.00 per month (even students) for supplements? How can they call themselves immortalist, if they are unwilling to put money toward the goal?

There is an old "Moody Blues" song, "Say What You Mean", and mean what you say. You mean what you say by becoming a Full Member.

How are we better off by donating to ImmInst than by giving our money directly to SENS or even cancer research for that matter? I could see the case for it if there was some kind of mainstream media arm to the organization or something. I did really appreciate Exploring Life Extension.

Good advocacy is a rarity and worth some level of investment...

(lunarsolarpower)
How are we better off by donating to ImmInst than by giving our money directly to SENS or even cancer research for that matter?

Because this is exactly what we are basically doing now and moving toward in a more effective and comprehensive manner than any single-minded objective organization ever will be able to.

I could see the case for it if there was some kind of mainstream media arm to the organization or something. I did really appreciate Exploring Life Extension.

More importantly there is no contradiction between what this organization is doing and these other examples you raise.

In fact there is a synergy that improves the chances of success for these other efforts by creating a central clearinghouse of education and advocacy as well direct tangible support in the form ultimately of grants, publications, distributed donations, debate, and other forms of advocacy like the development of conferences for public exposure for ALL the relevant issues. This puts a more consistent public face on the larger elements of social development for the idea of longevity in terms of philosophical as well as scientific validation.

Lastly while we are not currently registered as a political lobby for the advocacy of this cause that too is a possible objective that an organization like ours can better accomplish than any of the others more focused on the specific details of one or another aspect of serious and legitimate research.

How are we better off by donating to ImmInst than by giving our money directly to SENS or even cancer research for that matter?

Good question. It's even more relevant when you consider that the paying members do not get to vote on what will be supported and what will not. That risks getting off on another side issue but all things are interrelated. As for it "only" being $5 a month, that's $60 a year that is spent on what the directors want to spend it on. Sometimes they give it to themselves. I'm not saying jay didn't do a lot of work but I wonder if it had been put to a general vote with debate if the members would have wanted to give $800 of their money for that cause? That's a years dues from more than a dozen members. It also sets a precedent. Government always spends every dime of taxes it gets and screams for more. Put government on a diet and let the public support what they like.

I still do not see any member of management telling us what defines a student. What about part time students? Is that verified and if so, how can you justify prying into people's business that way? If not, then obviously anyone could claim to be a student whether they were studying anything or not. It isn't right to soak one group while another group gets a nearly free ride. I was told it was because students don't have money. Many don't but some do. The students who don't have money usually have a part time job and are therefore employed. It is an attempt at communism "from each according to his ability..."

And is paypal the only method of payment allowed? What's wrong with sending a check or money order? Paypal charges a fee to accept payments. Doesn't the institute have a bank account?

The ones who can't come up with $50 all at once get charged $60 a year. 'Pay me now or pay me more later', is the thinking here. That's 20% interest for the privilege of making monthly payments and it's on the backs of those with the least resources. Those who have the least pay the most and those with more pay less while those who may have plenty of money get charged the least.

It's even more relevant when you consider that the paying members do not get to vote on what will be supported and what will not.

This is untrue Xanadu but considering that you are not a paying member and given your perspective unlikely to be one, it is understandable that you are ignorant of this fact. Full members certainly do get the opportunity to vote these matters especially ass they are a direct part of what goes into creating and sustaining *official projects*.

It is also true that there are other perks from being a full member and these reflect choices expressed by the members, like having a journal distribution.

I suggest that you ask a different question Xanadu: Why should those that expect something for nothing and contribute nothing, expect to share in the authority for how funds invested in this organization are spent?

(Xanadu)

I still do not see any member of management telling us what defines a student. What about part time students? Is that verified and if so, how can you justify prying into people's business that way?

http://imminst.org/a...stitution.php#b

ImmInst Membership Dues Structure

$ 5.00 – Full membership for 30 days since receipt of the donation.
$ 50.00 – Full membership for 365 days since receipt of the donation.
$ 20.00 – Full membership for 365 days since receipt of the donation for individuals who can demonstrate that they are enrolled as a student in university or similar institution at the time of donating, or in financial circumstances meriting special consideration. Whether this requirement is fulfilled in any given case will be decided by the Treasurer.
$ 500.00 – Lifetime Membership as long as no exceptional circumstances necessitates reconsideration on the part of ImmInst as decided by authoritative directorial vote.

Obviously there are definitions as to what is a student.

If someone is claiming poverty as a reason for special consideration then the burden of proof falls on them to demonstrate it and ultimately the final decision falls upon the Treasurer as per making a decision in special cases with respect to the rules. He/she could make a determination based on special circumstances in the case of a part time student or any individual that requests such consideration.

While it also does not specifically assert this in part B the board can grant membership based on special recognition for their efforts in promoting this organization, promoting longevity or perhaps other reasons that could be argued before the board. Are you asking for such a special consideration?

And is paypal the only method of payment allowed? What's wrong with sending a check or money order? Paypal charges a fee to accept payments. Doesn't the institute have a bank account?

Perhaps if you took a little time to research the site better many of the questions you ask would be answered, though that might not be as much fun as just kvetching.

http://imminst.org/join/join_7.php
Monthly $ 5
My $5 monthly SUBSCRIPTION will grant me access to the Full Member Forum. I can cancel via my Paypal account at anytime.

Yearly Student $ 20
I'm a student and/or live in a developing country.  My $20.00 yearly SUBSCRIPTION will grant me access to the Full Member Forum. I can cancel via my Paypal account at anytime.

Yearly Employed $ 50
I'm employed and live in a developed country.  My $50 yearly SUBSCRIPTION will grant me access to the Full Member Forum. I can cancel via my Paypal account at anytime. 
Lifetime $ 500
I'd like to become a Lifetime Member by making a one-time tax-deductible contribution of $500 or more.  (To make a larger contribution, click here)

Basic Member (free)
I'd like to join as a free basic ImmInst Member. I'll receive the ImmInst Update email newsletter and be able to post to the ImmInst forums.

---------------------------------------------
*If you can not pay through Paypal, click  MAIL A CHECK.

Also there are instructions during the registration process for paying by credit card as well.

The ones who can't come up with $50 all at once get charged $60 a year. 'Pay me now or pay me more later', is the thinking here.

Think of a magazine subscription vs. the cover price on the stand. If you buy each issue individually, it will cost A LOT more than a subscription. Our system allows people to try a month, see if they like it, and then either go back to basic membership or make a yearly commitment at a lower cost. I see nothing wrong with that system, though I personally wouldn't pay the $5 per month option either.

But where we differ from a magazine subscription is the nature of the organization. When you buy a magazine you generally don't do it with the desire to support the magazine company because you agree with their ideas or want to help their cause. With ImmInst, I am a full member precisely because I want to support ImmInst, not because I want to get something out of it.

(Xanadu)
The ones who can't come up with $50 all at once get charged $60 a year. 'Pay me now or pay me more later', is the thinking here. That's 20% interest for the privilege of making monthly payments and it's on the backs of those with the least resources. Those who have the least pay the most and those with more pay less while those who may have plenty of money get charged the least.

So you don't like capitalism and can't handle the idea that incremental payments cause a higher pay structure?

Oh well I guess you have trouble paying bills in general then since this policy is SOP throughout the economies of the world. You may not like this idea and you are certainly entitled to raise it for debate but it is not legitimate to ignore that it is considered a valid practice by virtually every organization in the world from your local tax collector to Greenpeace.

Don't you find it interesting that aside from Lightowl that you have so little support from the Full Members and even Basic members appear somewhat mute on these matters?

Sometimes I must say I appreciate that you like to tilt windmills Xanadu but other times I think you just enjoy defining yourself as the outsider and a legend in your own mind. If you would take the time to better pick and choose the issues you want to debate and a little more time researching the elements of those positions then it would be much harder to simply dismiss your voice as that of a disgruntled whiner.

I see some answers to my questions but they raise more questions. I didn't see that definition of student when I went to the page to pay for membership but if I had read the whole constitution I would have found it. Laz, you have a point in that I didn't do my research. However, it seems the person must give up their identity to be a student but could avoid it if they sent in a money order and paid full rate. Credit cards obviously give up the info as well. Perhaps the definition of student could be made more accessible to those thinking about joining? It seems that taking even one course or class would qualify one. I'm not going to look into that avenue since it seems to be up to Mind.

No, I'm not looking for any special dispensation. Laz, your statement "I guess you have trouble paying bills in general" is a personal attack which I don't think I've ever seen from you before. It's common among a few other directors. I guess I got under your skin a little and shows none of us are perfect. I certainly tend to be annoying at times but I serve a function. As for not having support, I'm not looking for personal support, I'm looking to make a positive difference. I see it happening and no one can credibly deny that I was a catalyst for change and that many others wanted change as well. I see improvements coming about. I don't take credit for any of them but it was that irritating point of view that lead to more positive things. Maybe I was the Boris Yeltsin? He was viciously attacked and called a drunk, etc but he brought about change to the soviet union. He was an insider, unlike me, so it's not that good a comparison.

No, I have no problem paying bills but I see that dues are used to pay off certain directors and to go to the favorite causes of leadership. This may or may not coincide with the desires of members. I do see others saying much the same things and since to speak up is to risk the ire of management, its a wonder anyone spoke up. I have yet to see any expenditure being put before members to approve but since I don't read the full members only forum, it may have happened on occasion. More secrecy.

Sometimes I must say I appreciate that you like to tilt windmills Xanadu but other times I think you just enjoy defining yourself as the outsider and a legend in your own mind. If you would take the time to better pick and choose the issues you want to debate and a little more time researching the elements of those positions then it would be much harder to simply dismiss your voice as that of a disgruntled whiner.

Point taken. However, no matter how hard it's been to dismiss my causes, people will make the effort to do so. Part of that may be in the somewhat bombastic way I go about it and no doubt I do it to some degree for fun. But, I am honest and will not bring something up I think is useless or counterproductive. Sometimes I find out that what I'm pushing has already been addressed and part of the reason for that is the layers of secrecy that have grown up. I also tilt against secrecy and push for openness. I have made enemies so I must guard my identity for the foreseeable future. Mind has become my principle stalker. Even if I paid the dues, I would likely be thrown out later on for some pretext or other. I contribute by writing posts. What would the forum be without posts? Nothing at all. How much would sponsors pay if there were no potential customers? Not much. I doubt anyone's attitude would change if I paid dues. I might do it at some time.

Thank you for the answers given.

Laz, your statement "I guess you have trouble paying bills in general" is a personal attack which I don't think I've ever seen from you before.

I apologize Xanadu; it was a double entendre that I didn't intend (this time) in my rush to post. I didn't mean to impugn your financial habits but to assert that you might find the prevailing common billing practices of virtually all business *distressing*. The trouble I meant was emotional, not fiscal.

However your response points up my assertion that perhaps you are a little too willing to take the oppositional position and do glorify it a little too much. I care not a whit for Yeltsin's boozing I care a lot about his corruption and exploitation that led to a Kleptocracy and oligarchy in Russia that rivals some of the worst aspects of the Czarists regimes. In fact it was so incompetent that it practically begged for a strongman response that Putin gave to the Russian people and they in turn feel valid in choosing.

Just because we claim altruistic motives it does not absolve us from the consequences of our actions. I happen to have no problem with encouraging the kind of debate over our practices here that you have embarked upon in a number of threads but I am suggesting that it is invalid to dismiss some of the replies just because they don't meet your objectives (whatever they are). You still must serve practical realities and a system like this must have revenue to survive and defining it as just a social organization is invalid. None of us that founded this organization did so with the intent that it should be *just* a social gathering place for like minded individuals.

We certainly feel that we can do something constructive with the funds we take in and we encourage the Full Members who contribute to a be a very close part of the decision making as to what to do with those funds. we also feel that those that make an investment are more committed than those who don't and I lobbied during the development of the dues process to include alternative donations that might be defined in the form of labor and other than cash. Certainly this idea that people contribute is not what you object to?

Is it?

Because if it is then perhaps we are dealing with a psychology of entitlement such that you feel that this organization owes you something. Do you really think it does?

If you and others seek to develop your own social network I encourage it. I do think there is room for more than one such organization like ours and I feel we would all benefit from the competition. So if you and Lightowl think that is the best use of your efforts so as not to be *co-opted* into the workings of this organization then please follow your hearts and create the competition.

However I think that those who really want to see constructive changes in this organization do so from within and making a commitment, not by sitting in judgement outside and complaining about how they are expected to contribute. We seriously need people to work on a multitude of projects, there is no lack of ideas and some of those include the development of things like *official standards* for moderation. You and Lightowl may think it is being co-opted to work from the inside to develop those standards but I and others think it is a *cop-out* to complain and NOT participate in making AND enforcing those standards that you are a part of creating.

Some people seem to think today that a democracy is a spectator sport, perhaps this is the result of the Mcluhan Mad TV generation but it isn't. Democracy is a participatory sport and a competition that defies entitlement because once you think that someone owes you rights you have basically lost them by ceding power to them to protect your rights. You have no rights go undefended.

You are not best defending your rights with respect to decision making for this organization by sitting outside complaining about what is transpiring inside when no one is denying you access to being inside and contributing to the process constructively. However you also must learn that in a democracy you are not always going to like the will of the majority and right now the majority appears mostly against your view or indifferent to it.

Please leave me out of this debate. I have given hard earned cash and time to this organization and others. No need to become personal Lazarus. I am committed to the cause, perhaps more than you are aware of. If you think I am using my time here for the fun of it, you are completely mistaking.

http://www.imminst.org/film.php

http://www.mprize.or...hreehundredlist

http://blog.methusel...he_methuse.html

Edited by lightowl, 20 February 2007 - 06:31 PM.

Lightowl I only raised your name in reference to the desire to start an independent site to focus more on social aspects. I am well aware of your long term commitment to this organization and I am in no way critical of it. I defend your right to have your criticisms heard.

However I was suggesting that someone with your perspective would be more constructive inside leadership helping to determine and enforce policy than outside seeing the difficulties with less depth. I do not agree that being on the inside would *co-opt* your intentions because it makes you aware of more of what is going on.

Isn't it funny that *co-opt* basically comes from *cooperation*?

I welcome dissenting articulate voices like yours contributing to the establishment of policy and assisting with not only providing fair enforcement but helping to keep the enforcement of policy, fair. Yes it is a lot of work, far more than most people realize when they volunteer but it is better to address concerns like those you have raised by taking an active role than merely voicing your preoccupations with the possibility of abuse. By assuming such responsibility you can more effectively protect the freedom of expression that you value rather than just depending on others to do it or you .

If you want to be a navigator I am sure that there is a need for your effort.

I see. Thanks for clarifying. I am reconsidering yours and others invitation to become a Navigator, but I am very pressed for time these days. I will let you know later this week.

Laz, you have, as usual, a number of good points and while I think you still misconstrue many of my actions and statements, it seems we are coming closer to an understanding. You seem to be saying that if people post on the forums (I refuse to say fora) that they are getting a free ride if they don't pay dues. They are getting benefits but most of those same benefits are realized by those who have never registered. They can read all the posts and gain the info. They can't contribute any info or ask specific questions. Are the lurkers getting a free ride too? Does that make you angry? Those who post are the ones who make the forums what they are. If you make the forums open only to those who register, few will do so. That's why I suggested making the paid forum read only for those registered but not paid. It will engender interest in joining just as the present policy brings in basic members who then often become paid. I heard that was being considered but so far, only talk. There has been a lot of that but talk is cheap.

My point of view is that if I pay to join what am I agreeing to? I am also concerned about staying anon which may seem like a small concern since so many here have come out and not suffered any consequences. There are too many people who will sue you at the drop of a hat. There are so many ways to stalk and harass someone. The old kids tricks of ordering pizza to the house are like nothing compared to the dirty tricks todays kids have. It looks like you can pay anonymously which is how I would do it. I'm still a little put off by the two tiered thing with most getting full benefits at the discount rate. OK, I'm cheap, so what? I'm still thinking about it.

This "inside" and "outside" talk just involves the payment of money. I'm not looking to be a mod or even director. I've done all that and the first thing you learn is that it's just a job. I don't mind volunteering and doing a job but there seem to be plenty of eager applicants for those positions so I tend to stay among the general population any more. You and others seem to like using rhetoric that excludes those who have not paid money. You even told Lightowl and myself to go form the "competition" if we didn't like it. Then you backed off after he pointed out that he had paid. I'm a member over at brainmeta, does that make me a competitor or opponent or something? I think that's ridiculous.

Wherever I am I try to help. I'm in favor of advancing the cause of health and longevity but am ambivalent about exporting this to the general population. It can't be done at this time without serious consequences. But that's another topic altogether. I don't understand your antipathy towards those who try to participate but who don't sign on for every single thing offered. Right now, I'm a member of the forum but not of the institute. Is that so bad? Does that mean I should keep quiet and not try to help? You like money help but not the suggestions so much. The fact that I'm often right is one of my most annoying habits.