as broadband has proliferated across the world, and many distros of linux are now very noob friendly, linux has taken a bigger hold in the desktops of the curious and geeks everywhere.

first, let me dispell some rumors that you might have heard:

linux does not turn you into a hacker/cracker. a change in operating systems does not magically give you exploits.
linux is not hard to install, leastwise the distros im going to talk about.
linux is not as reliant on the command line now as it was. you wont be using alot of linux/unix commands, if any.
package managers such as apt-get take away the dependency hell that was common with linux.

on the other [good] hand:

there are 6 active virii for the linux kernal. there are well over 10k for XP alone.
spyware is virutally non-existant. i havent encountered any and ive been using linux with firefox for almost 2 years now.
decent distros are much more stable than windows. no spontaneous lockups or crashes.
the software is generally open source, which means hundreds if not thousands of ppl have looked over it and submitted bugfixes. the code is as flawless as can be expected. the linux kernal for example, has 900 instances of bad code compared to windows clocking in at 6k. linux recently added several hundred thousand lines of code, and actually saw the bad code numbers drop.
no worries about your sister fouling your pc up. not only would she prolly not have any idea how to do it, but shed need the root [administrator] password.

linux is not for you:

if you like playing the newest games, or alot of games. WINE can play some games, but you arent going to be playing vice city or san andreas on it.
if you use your pc to watch dvds. generally, there isnt alot of titles that wont play on xine, the kde video player. but sometimes the ones they wont play really piss you off. such as when xine wont play fight club which is your fave movie of all time. there are other, some would say better media players out there however.


i got into linux because of the security aspect. since windows is too much for most ppl, i figure with linux no one has a chance of dicking with my stuff. the truth is, no ones looking to hack linux boxen if you have some script kiddie, or a identity thief it makes no sense to target linux. theres not enough of us to net a decent wage from ripping off. and from distro to distro proigrams vary so much that theres not one thing you can rely on to be able to pull.

in the computer world, you are the %2 that will survive anything. no seasonal worms will bother you this christmas.

if theres some interest in what im saying, ill continue. ill set you up with a distro that will allow you to keep windows and help you with the installation process in a general manner.

I agree with most of what you said, but just have two somewhat minor quibles. I'd say the package managers help deal with dependency hell, but I still find it somewhat annoying. The big problem is that it solves things for programs that have packages, but I've never seen a distro with a repository that had every program I want. At home I use debian unstable for the sole reason of the larger package selection, easily the largest package repository I've ever come accross. Even with that though, I'd say I've had to compile somewhere around twenty programs or libraries myself. And when using packages too, there's another big downside that goes along with the second quoted statement. You're pretty much at the mercy of the package maintainer's prefrences, not those of the person who actually wrote the program.

Multimedia playback, for example, I've found to be annoying 'only' because of the way people compiled the packages. Most of the distros targeted at popular home use especially are so paranoid about codec support that it tends to come out somewhat limping along. DVD playback, as you bring up. I've seen that come up with SUSE's packages for example, after the long strugle to even get the decoding working, while I've never come up against that problem with debian.

On the other hand, as many things as I dislike about using packages....I'm also hooked on them. I've become lazy. One of the things I don't like about using non unix based systems at this point is having to manually update almost every single little program on my system. Updating almost every program on my install with either two clicks or a single command line statement is the killer feature for me. Bit of a pity too, because I first came to linux after BeOS died. Now that it's on the way back with Zeta and Haiku I feel a bit bad about not jumping back. On a technical level I think there's a lot about the upcoming version of Zeta that I like more than Linux, and that version should finally have enough ports and updates to let me do my normal activities on it. But, the kicker is lack of package management. I just can't get over the feeling of wasted time from downloading and installing updates by hand these days.

I know how you feel. Fortunately many software developers are starting to incorporate automatic updates directly into the software. That should in time make things a lot easier.

I am a Windows user because that's simply the system I know best and I feel most comfortable using. I know how to set up my system securely, so I don't have spyware and virus problems. Crashes are very rare. People who claims Windows XP crash often should take a look at their hardware. True, windows have a problem with handing faulty hardware and that results in crashing, but with working hardware I have never had a problem. I am talking WinXP here. Win2000 had a lot of problems that could not be excused.

I use Linux systems in server environments at work because they just perform that much better. We also use Windows servers and they are becoming increasingly more reliable, but performance is still lower.

Software is increasingly being compiled from the same source to various operating systems, and I suspect that in the future there wont be much difference between using a MAC or PC(Win) or PC(Linux). The most user-friendly user interface will prevail. At the time its the Window based GUI.

Ive used linux before. Ive installed mandrake, debian and used knoppix. But, after 5 years of working on computers, the thing that keeps me on windows is an inability to install drivers on linux. Im not a programmer, so I don't "make" drivers and no matter how long I sifted through long drawn out manuals I still wasn't able to find a straight answer on the installation of the average driver.

Now for windows, go anywhere on the net and type in installing drivers and you'll get a quick tutorial for the average user.

If you want security, you're better off using OpenBSD. Linux programmers only have a medium level of security in mind when writing code.
Re your second point: check your sshd logs; people all over the world are looking to break into your box.

where are sshd logs kept and how the **** do i disable sshd?

Your sshd logs are in /var/log/messages generally, unless you've set up syslog to route sshd warning/status messages to /var/log/sshd.log, or another file. Having separate log files is very useful; I know that Gentoo doesn't do this by default, but other distributions might.

To stop sshd, run "/etc/init.d/sshd stop" as root or through sudo. You can then run "rc-update del sshd default" to stop it from starting on every boot.

What drivers are you talking about? I know that mandrake, debian and knoppix all will load the necesary drivers for your computer on boot (this technology is called "genkernel"). All but some specialty drivers (like Intel's "open source" but non gpl graphics and network drivers) and proprietary, binary-blob driver (like nvidia or ati graphics drivers) are built into the kernel as modules, and can be loaded after, or during boot. In this way, it is easier to install a driver under linux than windows; you just type "modprobe ", and there you are, no opening a browser, no downloading or running an installer. But most likely this is done for you by the distrubition of GNU/Linux you're using.

For these reasons, I question whether you've ever really used linux, or if you have, whether you read any documentation at all after having problems.

I have been using Linux for the best part of six or seven years now and regardless of any hype thrown out by Linux zealots in the software community, it simply isn't up to par with windows regarding ease of use and simplicity for your average newbie.

New computer users expect software bought in stores to work as described. Yet as such software is invariably Windows software their best hope would be Wine or some other form of emulation. I have tried wine before and can vouch for the fact that for most useful programs, unless you're willing to spend hours trawling the net for solutions on forums, you should probably just give up.

For gaming Linux is also quite badly behind, another reason why I have only used it for a year at the longest as my sole operating system. Linux at present is all about compromise. Rather than using full featured itunes, you can use rhythmbox which is bare and unappealing. Rather than using Microsoft Office you can use Open Office which is slow and lacking in features.

I love Linux as an operating system for its hobby value, speed and relative power but when it comes to getting everyday things done properly it still just gets in the way.

The only thing I'm dead certain of when it comes to operating systems is that I have zero idea what another person should be using unless I've sat down and talked to them for at least an hour about the subject. The idea of knowing what another's preferences are better than he himself does seems a little too prevalent at times within a lot of the computer world.

With distributions like Ubuntu out there, I must respectfully disagree with you.



One of the many great aspects of using Free and Open Source Software is you don't have to buy it! It's completely free! I'm not even joking. With this developement model, you can report a bug to the developers, and they will ideally fix it in the next release. With closed source software, you're stuck with buying another upgrade. But, I won't shed any tears for you if you find yourself in this situation.



It seems to me you haven't shopped around too much for alternatives to programs like rythmbox (six years now, eh?), which is still very early in developement. If you're looking for a full-featured music player, try amarok. I use 1.4a to sync music and podcasts with my ipod. It's totally sweet, and you don't have to install Quicktime (or anything) along with it. It seems you're happy having your software vendor do all your thinking for you.



Oh, there it is. Another person trying to drive users away by saying it's a hobbyist operating system. This myth has been dispelled many times before. If you want to get into it here, I'd gladly join you in a little friendly verbal tustle.

This post has been edited by jedsen: Jul 2 2006, 03:20 AM

A fair comment, ubuntu is quite easy to use, I agree, but no moreso than windows and as I have outlined in my post, this advantage is negated when one attempts to do what most new users *expect* of a computer. Such as being able to install software found in stores which *will* meet their needs, as opposed to relying on software which *might* meet their needs.



Of course it is free, but what use is something which is free if it does not meet your needs. As for reporting bugs and hacking it yourself, anyone other than a devoted hobbyist simply does not have the time. Life takes precedence before the computing resources which support it. You do not need to shed tears for me friend, as I have used Linux, in all likelihood long before yourself and have found it unsuitable for my needs. It is typical of Linux zealots such of yourself to not only proclaim what suits your needs, but what suits those of others aswell. I will consider myself a better judge of my requirements, in spite of your arrogance.



And it would seem to be you are more interested in personal insult than an informed debate. I have used amarok, and to be honest It reeks of the same unfinished compromise that most free software does. Why should I seek an alternative to itunes which at best will be an equal, when itunes already does everything I want for me.

I resent your attempted insult of my intelligence, I do not require anyone to think for me, but if my software vendor meets my needs, I am happy to remain with said vendor as opposed to accepting compromise in order to make some sort of null point. Being a linux user was hip and cool 5 or 6 years ago, but it is tires me now. Viva La Revolution anyone?

Try playing any recent game on linux and you will see my point. Guild Wars for instance, even with your much hailed crossover office, takes hours of labour to get working and for what? Something which Windows can run natively. I have more important things to spend my time on than such pointless pursuits.



Stop being so self righteous to portray yourself as some kind of gladiator of the combat of argument. Put simply, Linux does not meet my needs as well as Windows does. Linux offers at best a mediocre computing experience, with lacklustre clones of equivalent Windows software in most cases. I require an operating system that can run Windows software. If I want my nephew to be able to play one of the latest games, I'd rather install it on windows than spend hours getting it running on Linux.

If this myth has been dispelled, how come the most worthy assesor of this judgement, the market, has not ruled in favour of such a decision. Linux involves too much effort and the fad of being a rebel rousing "fight the power" character has long since faded for me.

I am not attempting to discourage others from using Linux. Or perhaps I am? Perhaps I am part of the evil Micro$haft alliance that scourges the computing scene. You may wave the flag for Linux as much as you wish, but do not presume to either insult my considerable intelligence by indulging in your "I am l33ter than thou!111one" nonsense or by attempting to determine my needs and tell me what best meets them. I know my needs and I am in the best position to know what meets them. Wave your flag elsewhere friend, your tirade of advocacy is misguided.

This post has been edited by centurion: Aug 14 2006, 02:48 PM

A problem I had also noticed, fragmentation (with regard to distributions) is a serious issue. It is refreshing to see someone who can see the full picture with regard to linux, rather than to indulge in the overzealous blindly universal advocacy that most new recruits to linux become engaged in.

I have found Debian Linux to be an extremely useful and suitable platform for my distributed computing however, brings life and purpose to otherwise idle equipment.

*Damned quote bug!!!*

Yeah, I've used linux off and on mostly for operating system development (thats right I've written my own hobbyist OS), I've tried to get more involved in it, but it seems that every time that I do I end up in dependency hell, things lock up, or are hap-hazardly put together, sure linux is great if your on a budget, or if you need some off-the-wall development tool, but when microsoft or apple offers me a tool that can meet all of my needs (as centurion would put it)... I'm happy with it, I don't need to search random servers for weirdly-named packages and drivers that either need to be compiled or are mean't for something entirely different. Also, I'm not as concerned with my mp3 player's name as I am with how well my compiler works or maintaining compatibility with 90+% of the world.

This might become an open-source alternative to windows given enough time, looks promising so far, but I have not used it personally:

http://www.reactos.org/xhtml/en/index.html

By the way, Open Office 2.x is much better than Open Office 1.x. I have M$ Office installed on my system and I use Open Office just as often. I like the export to PDF feature.

Open office is an excellent piece of software. Almost my favourite second only to the gimp. I don't want anyone thinking im anti-linux here. I'm not. I just dont deem it suitable for my current desktop needs (particularly considering I already have a copy of winxp). In my systems oriented Information Systems modules I have often advocated the use of linux in non user facing equipment such as the use of squid servers.

Wonder how he knows that without having broken the law? Or without trusting a source so disreputable as to break the law....

Um, how would one determine what an instance of "bad code" is in the first place? are you talking about inefficient code? or actual errors themselves?

Also, I've used reactOS a while back, and I've even incorperated some of it's code into my OS's kernel, it does show A LOT of promise, however, I think that if someone is looking for an open source alternative to windows because of its price... I would suggest googling the term "p2p client", "bearshare", "limewire"... etc... get my drift?

I don't know what you *expect* of your computer, but it's spyware, viruses, spending lots of dough because of vendor lock-in, then I bet you're very happy. If your *need* to spend tons of cash in store to feel good about yourself and you self-righteous economic values, then you'll be even more pleasently surprised. Linux has a plethora of software that suits the needs of the average user (music players, browsers, calendar apps, e-mail clients), the hobbyist (GNU Compiler Collection GDB), the bioinformaticist, and even old grandmas who are wouldn't know the difference between windows ans GNU/Linux.



I'll have to take your word that after 6 years of using GNU/Linux, it didn't meet your needs. I agree with you that life takes precedence over all else, but I also believe that using Free (as in Libre) and Open Source Software is part of a healthy, complete lifestyle. How do you advocate supplements to those who do not take them? If they laugh at you for spending hundreds a month on capsules filled with stuff they have a shakey understanding of, then do you laugh back, or try to convey your knowledge of the supplements? Well, you're using an operating system which costs hundreds, and of which you have a shakey understanding, so excuse me if I seem a little arrogant.



Personally, I ditched itunes and os x recently on my macbook for a more stable Gentoo install. iTunes would not only import playlists of music, but also make an extra copy of the songs from that playlist. Now I use amarok (for my ipod), which automatically downloads artwork from amazon, and exports it to my ipod. For playing music, I use rhythmbox, because I like the native gtk interface better.



Again, if you like shelling out cash to monopolies, then more power to you, friend.



Yes, gaming on GNU/Linux is not as seemless and easy as it is on windows. I tell my serious gamer friends to stick with windows (they usually pirate it) when talking to them abiout free software (yes, they're usually interested).



Okay, I don't mind you insulting me, but when you insult Free Software, I get pissed. You're wrong on all counts.



Linux and other free projects such as Apaches and MySQL own the server market. The next step to world domination is the desktop market. We're starting to make some good progress with distributions like Red Hat, and Ubuntu. So, sink or swim, for the times they are-a-changin'.



By blatantly bashing GNU/Linux in areas I know it does well, I know your either very stubborn and have never used it, or your GNU/Linux experience was nowhere near like mine, which would indicate your "considerable intelligence" is paltry in comparison to mine. But, seriously, why do you hate Linux so much? Did it rape your cat and damage your brain?

I must agree with Jedsen. I am a near know-nothing when it comes to any computer outside the Mac world, and I was able to easily install Ubuntu. I like it better than Windows and for many features it exceeds even the Macintosh. Not shelling out many $1000s for a basic Apple system is a huge plus in my book. No longer will I be locked into expensive, proprietary, mostly workable system (the Mac) or a less expensive, proprietary, mostly unworkable system (Windows). Now I will have an inexpensive, free and workable system in the form of Ubuntu. Hasta la victoria siempre!

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