Attack ideas and not people

Why do you keep trying to make this THE subject to discuss? I think EVERYONE has heard this offer. I also think it's a great idea but at the same time, you have been hijacking every post on this board with this same message.

I think it's great that you are looking out for our safety but it seems to be turning into a diversionary tactic.

A diversionary tactic to divert the topic from....uhh...

Lazarus,

Is there an "ignore" function in the forum software somewhere? That might work well for this situation.

Steven

OK... In this particular case, the topic seems to be you. I don't blame you for trying to divert it. In other cases though, I'm sure you recognize that it may interupt the flow of the discussion to continuosly state the same thing over and over.

It would probably be best to start a topic with all of the info you want everyone to know about the testing project (maybe like the Purity Buyers Club post) and then leave it at that. In general, it is kind of off topic otherwise in my opinion.

Steven alas we do not and have not yet to date needed an *ignore* function but it too may become a subject that the leadership will address.

I have read a few posts of Nootropi and I don't find anything unpleasant in his language or in his ideas.

He seems to be quite a resource person for his kind of material expertise, and I believe I can consult him on matters like whether drug induced mystical experiences are as good or even better as meditation induced ones, or othewise.

This thread is about attacking the ideas and not the person. I have not attacked anyone here and no one's ideas either. What I do usually is ask questions which also sometimes gets me in trouble.

I myself never practically complained against anyone except in one forum when I decided to use the report bad post (instead of directly and courteously dealing with the concened interacitng poster), which report got me in trouble with moderators and administrators because they they maybe think I was wasting their time, etc., etc., and at the end I got suspended, even though there was an ongoing process of review by moderators and dministtrators about my complaint. OK, no more bellyaching from me.

About this thread, I agree wholeheartedly that we must address the ideas of a person than the person himself.

It's just that I was looking for a section where the rules, etc., are located and where they receive feedbacks, suggestions, etc., and landed into this thread about not attacking the person but attending to his ideas which I thought most relevant to my present emotional state.

About the ideas of Nootropi, at the risk of exposing myself for being a simpleton, I can say on my part that I find them to be informative if nothing else, and open to any check by resorting to pertinent websites accessible to anyone with internet facility.

His manner of presentation is all right with me.

As regards his person, even though we are supposed to prescind from personality, nonetheless it would be impossible to understand a person's ideas and advocacy without in some way divining his person, I would say that he is possessed of good faith, namely: he's not after making trouble for the fun of it, he's not after disseminating false information for whatever agenda he has in mind, and he is not principally after showing that some people are unintelligent.

The man obviously enjoys writing about a matter he is well-conversant with, and he could make a good teacher on his subject of expertise for people docile to learn from him.

Otherwise why would he invest time and labor to write messages here, if not for the sheer joy of doing so, and for the pleasrue and sense of goodness in sharing his knowledge with others, who might certainly benefit from such knowledge.

Modesty aside, even though I have no expertise in anything except in my self-acclaimed honest search for answers to life's questions, which I believe I do so with a completely open mind and systematically intelligent manner, I hope to be able to proceed like Nootropi -- but no offense to the man here, though, in aspiring to his knowledge and writing skill and devotion to the hobby of sharing ideas with others.

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Addendum:

Maybe I will be putting my foot in my mouth, but this is what I think is the less winsome feature in the posts of Nootropi to some people, namely, where some people are trying to open the door by pushing hard against it, he comes by and pulls the door open for them.

Did I put my foot in my mouth?

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Just an FYI. If you want to do this properly you'll need to have the lab order the products from his site. Any other protocol would be invalid in a court of law. If anyone touches the material before it makes it to the lab will nullify the results

Would you be willing to ship any of your products straight to a lab for assay? If so, that could provide the opportunity for a fair comparison.

If I shipped the powders straight to the lab myself, then people would just say I sent a fake sample. It has to be done without the company knowing, that is the whole point. Someone the size of Rizzer knows every order that goes out. It would be pretty obvious if he was sending to a lab.

1fast400: you are still unable to comprehend the most basic and fundamental principle in independent testing. The samples must be submitted by independents! I can see that you are having trouble understanding that Rizzer has agreed to the following terms for the Imminst.org based quality control testing, so let me articulate:

1. Every member who submits a sample will submit what they ordered from Rizzer and recieved before being selected as an individual submitting a sample.

2. I, nootropi, will work with members of this forum personally to be sure that the samples are submitted to ensure the integrity of the sample.

3. If a sample comes back with a negative result, those who ordered the respective product will recieve a refund and/or store credit for products which are verified to have integrity.

4. Any full member of the Immortality Institute may submit a sample of products purchased from smi2le.biz, provided I can speak with them briefly (either in person or on the telephone).

5. I will finance the testing, so the tests are performed free of charge as a means of ensuring our safety and product integrity.

So 1fast400, there is the agreement. As you have less to offer this community, please understand that we have less business to offer you. If you do not trust the members of the Immortality Institute to organize quality control testing of your products, we cannot find it rational to purchase products from you in exchange for your "word;" which I have proven to be of less than credible nature. In fact, I have implicated and proven that you have mislead readers here by implicating that you perform quality control testing when in fact you do not. Maybe you have not noticed, but this is the Immortality Institute. We value our quality of life, and its repective duration. You are not a full member here, and you have only visited this forum to attempt to increase profits. Unless you have a superior offer for this forum and its members, please understand we have accepted the terms as stated above as acceptable and respectful of the members of this forum.

I would certainly encourage you to present the members here with a superior offer if you sincerely desire to sell your products here. However, judging from the content of your earlier postings, you will not have a superior offer for the members of this forum. Once again, this is the Immortality Institute, and we at the Immortality Institute are concerned with extending and enhancing the quality of our lives; thus we value businesses whom have better means of ensuring that our lives are not endangered; further, they should be extended; and given that the products in question that are of Chinese origin could very well be deadly that you sell could be shortening our lives, supporting your business is counterproductive and may be, in fact, obtuse to our quest for eternal life.

Be well.

Edited by nootropi, 22 January 2005 - 02:13 AM.

I don't know about that.

From my experience with message boards like the present one, you usually can't do anything with your thread and posts after you have published them in the web forum and upon the lapse of some period of time.

But the powers that be can do anything they want with them, even tampering with your messages without so much as any annotation of such tampering. And worse, they can also revise their own posts to make them different from how they appeared originally, and without any annotation either.

Susma aka Pachomius

This thread seems to be the closest thing to a people's court.

When will the polling stop? and at which point if more are for having nootropi banned, above 50% of poll participants, will the owner of this forum ban him, for a time, for good?

I can see however some very objectionable points in banning a member on the results of a poll.

Susma

Yes Susma that would be a good example of a *tyranny of the majority*, especially when the result of nothing more than opinion unsupported by sufficient evidence and due process.

We do not ban people because a group says so. That would describe a form of ostracizing and shunning, not a rule of law established on fairness in search of justice.

We do however take some time to review complaints and determine if a violation of the rules has occurred. Has a sufficient violation occurred or is this still an example of a too subjective complaint?

We have and will continue to examine the issues raised inthis thread but so far it seems (to me) that if those who wish to not participate with Nootropi wanted to they could simply open some of their own threads to discuss matters independently of Nootropi. He is not the forum topic and has made many good contributions apart from his acerbic character.

I for one do not happen to agree with his manner of presentation and reply but I also do not think that is sufficient reason to ban him. There are a number of grounds that are going to require a conference of the leaders involved here but (speaking for myself) I hope none of us will be a party to a virtual *lynching* either.

That's all very good.

I wonder where this thread is truncated from.

My impression at the start upon reading the title of this thread is exactly that we have here a thread where people can examine the posting manners of a member, and not so much his ideas, except in reference or relevantly to his ideas.

And I think I am in the right place, for I have always been very keen on how conflicts among members and also specially among members with the powers that be in a forum are resolved.

As I said this thread is the closest thing to a people's court.


Thanks, incidentally to Nootropi, for his reminder that a case study is not a research, and that very authoritative and enlightening citaton from the federal regulations (45 CFR 46 102.d).

So, a case study is more than an anecdote but still not a research report. A very useful piece of knowledge for all people seeking precision of information.

Susma aka Pachomius

Susma aka Pachomius,

Re: case study:

Dismissing the thread (see thread on nicorgoline ?sp) in question as "only a case study so it is not valid research" misses the point. The info presented in that thread is not research, valid or invalid. The thread presents no new information if A. you are aware that nicorgoline is a vasodilator and B understand the physiology of "the steal phenomenon" (perhaps not physiology 101, but not a super advanced concept).

I have to beat a hasty retreat here, Scottl; because I am not any knowledgeable person in regard to life enhancing and extending substances.

My concern here in this thread is actually with how conflicts among members here and with forum officials are resolved.

I said that I can see the difference between a case study and a research report, and also from my stock knowledge what is an anecdotal account of a medicine's efficacy, with regard to the citation produced by Nootropi, which citation is to my understanding quite valid in terms of arriving at certain or more certain knowledge.

I have also expressed my opinions in regard to whether Nootropi should be banned. from my perch as a newcomer here, alhtough I had registered here on January 10, 2004, and after some posts had been absent until these last days of November 2004.

No, I don't know nothing about life enhancing and extending substances, but I am interested in extending my life and even enhancing it, as the years advance and life quality recedes.


About the sellers of such substances in this forum, and buyers also, I am sorry or honest to say that I am neither one nor the other. But just the same I believe I can contribute to most of the sections here, and I am a potential user of such substances if and when they are certainly established to be reliably efficacious -- for I do want to live longer and better.

Susma

Customer sends rizzer's product off for testing. Test comes back bad. Customer is really pissed and goes posting the results all over the internet. Rizzer gets mad because of this. He thinks the guy might have altered the sample sent in. Rizzer takes customer to court. Customer will be liable to all damages/loss of sales due to customers posting of material. Since customer sent product from himself to the lab, he is 100% liable for damages. Nothing he can do about it. The only way to absolve the customer of this legal issue is to have the powders sent from rizzer directly to the lab.

I know far more about the legal issues of this than you do.

About Nootropi and the idea of having him banned, I am one person who believe that no one should ever be banned for no reasons whatsoever. Anyone deserving to be banned for the most outrageous of reasons should simply be informed publicly that his posts will be consigned to the section where such posters with outrageous manners and ideas can continue to publish their writings.

They will get tired and come to their senses eventually. Someting like isolation but not not banning which is equivalent to death sentence in real life. And as soon as they show that they can act civilly however outrageous their ideas, they will be allowed in sections where well-mannered people publish their views.

Susma

These are my feelings as well. However he is terribly annoying, and he replies to most of the posts in the nootropics forum making him frightfully hard to ignore (assuming you frequent the nootropic forum).

If anyone actually did believe the baseless accusations he's been throwing around, primarily at 1fast400, he certainly would have been sued for libel by now, and rightfully so. 1fast hasn't even advertised at all here (from what I've seen or remember), he's just been responding to accusations thrown at his business. Luckily for nootropi he's discredited himself so completely that the accusations he throws around probably actually help 1fast (if he says it's bad it must be good).

I don't really think he's doing any harm at all because he's discredited himself so. It is still annoying

Edited by elrond, 21 January 2005 - 06:10 AM.

Lazarus, you around here also?


What happened to Nootropi?

I looked up 'search all posts of' for Nootropi's latest posts and landed into his posts dating from June 2004.

Are there somewhere in this forum instructions on how to use the resources here?

Tell me, I never had the answer to this question which I think I had always wanted a verified answer and wanted to ask but never remembered to do so explicitly, namely, as Don seemed to have emphasized, that a post deleted by a power here is not entitled to be automatically sent to the Catcher section; and also that it is not even entitled to an annotation to the effect that it had been deleted by the power in the performance of his duty?

I think Don did that to a post of his, deleted it, and as far as I know did not notify the public about his deletion of his own post -- but conspicuously later he put it in the Catcher section.

Okay, you guys are not infallibly consistent to the book and to the letters thereof-- my impression and I can live and work with that; but it is a consuelo de bobo if nothing else to know that you guys are human after all.


I just got nostalgic about Nootropi, is he still around? Did you guys ever get together in chambers on the clamor for some people here to have him banned?


Susma

Susma, I'm afraid you missed this: http://www.imminst.o...ST&f=169&t=5014 and this http://www.imminst.o...f=116&t=5349&s= ...

Heh I was about to reply when it has been removed [glasses]

Yours
~Infernity

Can't access the materials


Dear Infern:

Please tell me what's in those two references you give me.

The first one I clicked on did not open up, and the second one opened up to this notice:




Anyway, if you know what happened to Nootropi, tell me.

And tell me if the powers here have a formal process of terminating with utmost prejudice someone like me with stubborn curiosity, a process whereby as in the reading of a sentence the convict is present to witness to his own sentencing.

You see, in Straightdope forum they cut you off without notice, and leave it to yourself to determine whether you might be laboring under some computer or internet glitches.

Also, I confess that dummy as I am, I don't know how to use the features and resources of this forum, for example, the search function never seems to work (more probably owing to my dummy awkwardness). I am a dummy but one who can learn if a teacher be kind and patient. You know where in this forum I can find instructions on how to negotiate my way in this forum -- that late in the day, yes.


Susma

Susma,

Both links were removed to the leaders forum.
Because I found the link to one of them they thought I found it in a search, and I suppose deleted this thread... However, I have no access too.
As I said- you missed those.

That's a long story, I don't remember already really...

And, I can't see any problem with the searching, maybe you should just learn how to use it...

Yours
~Infernity

Nootropi deleted many of his own posts before he left

Hehe, Elrond, you just gave Susma another beginning of a new mass on why not deleting posts [lol]

Yours truthfully
~Infernity

[b}Never banned at all?[/b]


You mean the man just left without having been banned?

Well, that is a very re-assuring news for me; because what I feel most badly about is to be banned without notice.

That's how human I am.

Specially by powers who don't give you any notice, when they get piqued or more correctly, pickled.

In one board they paraded themselves as willing to discuss your violations but they practice tampering of the evidence, and when you are getting near to exposing them for their lopsided justice system, they suspend you with a warning that you would be banned if you insisted on remonstrating with them.

No, this is not a perfect world. And I am getting to be more and more conformable to powers that be in message boards. It is hard to kick against the goad -- and disagreeably painful; common wisdom tells us to conform if you would remain in the good grace of powers that be. After all what are powers for?

Hahahahahahaaaaaaaaa and heheheheheheheheeeeeeee.


About Nootropi, at least he had the wisdom to walk out instead of being thrown out, hurled out by his feet.

Hope this message does not get deleted or relocated or lost.... heheheheeee.

Susma

Susma,
In the end he was banned.
He also tried to re-register, but was also banned as new member if I remember well...

Yours
~Infernity