Immortality (against)

I could just quote any one of the answers already posted. They all say much the same thing, and it is exactly my opinion on the matter too. I want to live until I want to die, and I don't want to die 1 minute earlier than that time.

And btw, you say we will eventually have 'deep emotional pain' as if that is a bad thing... I enjoy experience. Even pain can be a positive experience. If you want to be numb, there are plenty of drugs that can do that for you...but why go by halves? kill yourself now* and remove all chance of ever suffering through pain again.


*Aegist does not really recommend you go kill yourself, it is a rhetorical device. Although aegist believes his advice is 100% philosophically valid, killing yourself is always a bad idea, because there is no chance to change your mind. Staying alive affords you the freedom of changing your mind at any time.

Lol... And I must add, killing yourself is the biggest error can be done- the only error of which you cannot learn from...

-Infernity

Have you ever considered the possibility that God is working toward making man immortal on earth and doesn't have any intention of giving man an afterlife in heaven? Checkout Revelation 21:1-4 where it says:

Interesting take on the situation Elijah3.

I love life. But in my religion, there is something better. Therefore I'm not going to make the choice of having any life extension.

Exactly. Your religion seems to have taken away your right to make a choice. You're a slave to your faith.

The decision for me is quite easy

First, I do not believe that we should explore immortality or life extension for the reason that it would cause us intense pain and sorrow.  When (or if) we have the option of becoming immortal, we could invest in countless things (over time) but at a certain point, once we've explored the extent of the universe, the phenomenon of music, and the exploration of alien life. But sooner or later we are going to have deep emotional pain, because we will never cease to exist.  By that time viruses will be exterminated, and, among many others things, health care will be improved. This will close the doors to death. 

I find it an interesting assumption that immortality will cause us this intense pain and sorrow. even if we know everything, and we have explored the universe, there is no basis for saying that this would make us deeply sorrowful. in fact, i think the hedonists among us would agree that this would finally free them up to do what they wanted to. what immortality and knowledge of all does is give you complete and absolute options concerning the kind of life you want to live in the life span you dictate. there can *never* be an end to death through immortality research... if you are saddened by absolute knowledge, I’m sure this future there will still be high cliffs and knifes. yes suicide may not be a pleasant thought, but im sure many here would rather take their own life when they were done wit hit then be sent prematurely kicking and screaming to their graves.

its simply a different perspective, and hence a different emotional response to the question. And someone else’s religion is never a good justification for actions in you make in your own life. If every religion on earth believed striving for eternal life would result in you being smitten from above (or from bellow, depending on your religion) and you do not believe this, then you are not in *anyway* restricted in your actions. Only those who choose to follow a set of religious rules are bound by them.

If you want to die and go to some afterlife, that is fine by me penguin_king. I have no problem with that.

I plan to keep on living.

So did most people that died yesterday.

Religion IS the answer for those who cant accept death.... of course it's against immortality.

I see no reason to say more, for my intelligent fellow mates do quite a good job, and I am tired of answering those same answers to every newbie that's not a companion to this goal.

-Infernity

I thought the

Immortality Institute - Advocacy & Research For Unlimited Lifespans

was for those that can't accept death. This is the religion of the Institute, right?
Trying to find a way to transform yourselves from mortals to immortals.

I mean, the title states it's NOT about living a long and productive life. But about
living forever.

-Stephen

Great discussion everyone.
I like Philip K Dick's take on this: reality is that with doesn't disappear when you stop believing in it. That's my take on faith. I respect it, but there is absolutely no grounds to claim it's superiority over scientifically-established or it's irrational cogency over science.

Perhaps this is all a dream of God, maybe an advanced AI created us as slaves and now mirthfully observes us do their bidding, perhaps an advanced civilization is simulating us, perhaps we are a science project of some student from another dimension.

Or, perhaps there is nothing beyond that and we're merely specks of dust on an infinite pond of space and we should do our best to extend our lifespans indefinetly.

Which one is more likely?

I thought the Immortality Institute - Advocacy & Research For Unlimited Lifespans was for those that can't accept death. This is the religion of the Institute, right?
Trying  to find a way to transform yourselves from mortals to immortals.

I mean, the title states it's NOT about living a long and productive life. But about
living forever.

I find that many who are here are here because they have faced death enough that they find it absurd to not do anything about it if possible. Many ignore death, they do not live with it. If you have seen people die in front of you, seen their body afterwards without all the make-up and illusion of a funeral, etc, you realize how much our culture romanticizes it. It is very easy to be frightened of it, and compartmentalize this fear into a place that you do not have to deal with it. People put it away in some corner far away from their lives, and make abstract ideas and philosophies to mask their fear. The institute is the opposite of this, it is about facing death head on. It is about dealing with the problem, accepting that it is a problem, and doing something about it. If by doing something today, we can save a great many lives in the foreseeable future, we should. There is no difference in prolonging someones life, in a healthy state, and saving their life.

It is about living a long and productive life. The 'living forever' and 'Immortality' part is about not self-imposing limits on our lives, our nature, our humanity, and our possibilities.

I thought the Immortality Institute - Advocacy & Research For Unlimited Lifespans was for those that can't accept death. This is the religion of the Institute, right?
Trying  to find a way to transform yourselves from mortals to immortals.

I mean, the title states it's NOT about living a long and productive life. But about
living forever.

I find that many who are here are here because they have faced death enough that they find it absurd to not do anything about it if possible. Many ignore death, they do not live with it. If you have seen people die in front of you, seen their body afterwards without all the make-up and illusion of a funeral, etc, you realize how much our culture romanticizes it. It is very easy to be frightened of it, and compartmentalize this fear into a place that you do not have to deal with it. People put it away in some corner far away from their lives, and make abstract ideas and philosophies to mask their fear. The institute is the opposite of this, it is about facing death head on. It is about dealing with the problem, accepting that it is a problem, and doing something about it. If by doing something today, we can save a great many lives in the foreseeable future, we should. There is no difference in prolonging someones life, in a healthy state, and saving their life.

It is about living a long and productive life. The 'living forever' and 'Immortality' part is about not self-imposing limits on our lives, our nature, our humanity, and our possibilities.

Spot on. [thumb]

cnorwood wrote> It is about living a long and productive life. The 'living forever' and 'Immortality' part is about not self-imposing limits on our lives, our nature, our humanity, and our possibilities.

Stephen wrote> Well the PTB gave the title:

Immortality Institute

and NOT

Longevity Institute

implying that living forever and ever is something that is actually possible.
{Longevity Institute is a name already taken too, but I think that is besides
the point.}

immortality - endless life , impossible
the word is spiritual

longevity - long life , possible
the word is scientific/medical

If you impose no limit on "...not self-imposing limits on our lives, our nature, our humanity..." it seems to me you are willing to give up your humanity,
to live another day, if faced with imminent death.
Or is this a incorrect take on what you
wrote?

-Stephen

implying that living forever and ever is something that is actually possible.

Living forever may not be possible, but it is something to shoot for. It is about always looking to improve the human situation. It emphasizes how much we value life and humanity. It is a symbol saying that it is a continual process. Unfortunately, many people do not understand why we should 'reach for the stars' (which is a saying for reaching for the infinite).

If you impose no limit on "...not self-imposing limits on our lives, our nature, our humanity..." it seems to me you are willing to give up your humanity

I am not willing to do so.

Edit: By the way, what do you think 'give up your humanity' means?

Edited by cnorwood, 07 March 2007 - 06:56 PM.

By the way, what do you think 'give up your humanity' means?

I think he means that by becoming cyborgs or mind-uploads, we would no longer breath, procreate or do anything that was always known to be a part of "human nature".

I think he means that by becoming cyborgs or mind-uploads, we would no longer breath, procreate or do anything that was always known to be a part of "human nature".

Ah, Life-extension and transhumanism are two different things. Although, some interested in one are interested in the other. I think life-extension will happen long before we have the choice of giving up our bodies.

Edit:

To clarify, to say we should not do one because of the other does not make sense to me.

Edited by cnorwood, 07 March 2007 - 07:31 PM.

cnorwood wrote>Living forever may not be possible, but it is something to shoot for. It is about always looking to improve the human situation. It emphasizes how much we value life and humanity. It is a symbol saying that it is a continual process.

Stephen wrote> I would think that most people would regard the goal of
immortality as too great. Regardless of their beliefs. A more
reasonable goal might be along the lines of:

Making a lifespan of 100 years, productive and commonplace

or any number of other similar sayings. If you all ever get that far
you can go to 150 years. To set no limit is much like applying at a
big company/hospital/etc. and saying that you can do any job with
a little training. It's just too much for the prospective boss to accept.

-Stephen

But this isn't a job application. We're talking about revolutionary thinking....

Revolutionary thinking must always be revolutionary....you have to push the boundaries to inspire people.

The point is that it is too great. That is why I used the word symbol. It is a concept. Like infinity in mathematics. Sure, our goal is for 100 years, then 150, then 200, then so on to infinity. The point is that it is a continual goal. We want it open-ended.

But this isn't a job application. We're talking about revolutionary thinking....

Revolutionary thinking must always be revolutionary....you have to push the boundaries to inspire people.

People into this stuff are inspired. The general public is not (just my guess). The question
might be, 'who is the target audience?'. Usually when one is trying to promote something one
doesn't make wildly exaggerated claims. Doing so instantly destroys one's credibility.

I'm all for finding ethical/moral ways to extend the productive lifespan of Americans to 100
years. If those here are in the same mindset, then I would suggest stating that plainly (as
the circumstances warrant).

Just suggestions, this isn't my project,

-Stephen

penguing king


"Therefore I decided to leave.  I have no regrets..."
A little challenge has routed you? -Then back to your comofort doctrine.
Or, on the other hand, you may stay as much as you desire - and courageously face our arguments. Who knows, maybe in the end you'll end up strengthening your own faith...

-Daniel S.


"Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
-Ecclesiastes 3 21

I would have no problem standing up to your arguments except that you are questioning my religion. I would gladly stand up except that you say that there is no God. You say there is no after life. Do you think I want to stay here after the first day I got here you are questioning my religion? And how could this be strengthining my religion? Is extending my life ok in my religion? As I said before, life extension is insanity. Watch the videos. ''Maybe we no longer need to be humans, but cyborgs". Tell me, is that not insanity? Im not afraid of death. Mortallity in my opinion is a gift.

Ecclesiastes 1:3-8
For everything there is a season,
And a time for every matter under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to throw away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
A time to embrace, And a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to seek, and a time to lose;
A time to keep, and a time to throw away;
A time to tear, and a time to sew;
A time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time to love, and a time to hate,
A time for war, and a time for peace.

Directed to: penguin king
Wow, no wonder why people really hate me for being a Christian(I'm Evangelical). Many take things out of context to draw up arguments. Just because the Scriptures say that there is a time to die, it does not mean that you should just give up hope in life. The Scriptures tell that you should do your best to help anyone around you. Well... if you're dead because you seek it without consideration of the extension of life, then you have already disrupted several connections:
1) Earn as many talents(anything that is beneficial) as you can, given your abilities. Can't do that when you're dead.
2) Abusing yourself is like abusing another. The sluggard does this to himself for he wastes his life away not fearing death(the wrong reasons) and ignorant of existance.
3) Reward in eternity is only obtained when one lives life to the highest in harmony with others. The reward is not there just for the taking.
(can't remember the rest, but a ton of Fallacy Alarms just went off in my head when I read his posts)
4) To give up life is giving up a precious gift.

Like what others said, the afterlife is always there as long as you have helped everyone to the best of your abilities. Even then, Christianity states that eternity is not won by the deeds of others alone. Therefore, it is pointless to end your life early just so that you can "see the light". Why not use that time for spreading the word, helping the poor and needy, aiding those that are in trouble, etc?

Anyway, what is the purpose of telling others that mortality is better than immortality? Of course, we all know that we will eventually have an end, for all things that begin must end. You're either continuous and infinite, or abrupt and finite. Immortality is bad when an addiction develops just for the sole purpose of living. At that point, the addict's focus would not be to benefit anyone but for themselves, therefore useless to everyone. Self improvement, a theme I see more throughout this forum than immortality itself, is something greater. It is like developing the tools for use in life, which should not be a bad thing unless it is an obsessive addiction.

By the way... are you trying to convert some people? That's the old method that instilled fear into others to forced conversion, which never did work well. Fear leads to exploitation. You would want to gracefully help someone into believing.

I'm still limited in my understanding of everything, so I hope to gain more from these forums. Being a Christian doesn't mean that I am oblivious to everything other than preaching the world. Sure, the Scriptures tells me that I should attribute everything of low-level necessity(vacation trips, comfort, money, fame) with low priority, which I am still struggling to achieve. I cringe at the thought of being a hypocrite of the things that I say.

Directed to: Anyone in general?
I hope that people see Christianity not as a cult. It really is something when people see it really for what it is. It's not meant to be a conversion machine. It was never used massively for the right reasons. (The Crusades, Roman Catholic enterprises, etc.) Christianity's background dates to when a man named Jesus died for the sake of others, a true form of sacrifice that symbolizes the good that humanity can actually achieve. Chrisitianity is a relationship with Jesus and the believer itself. It's more like a type of friendship for what he has done. Even if that sounds absolutely insane, there is nothing wrong with having belief in that. Complex string theories still are proven to be too basic for the existance of all there is. If time itself is a dimension where things exist, then we infinitely see a miniscule portion of possibilities. Our knowledge of physics and rationality exist only where we exist. Any form of improbability or absurdity can be quite believable anywhere else.

(I know I have more to say, but I just can't draw it up at the moment.)

Yay, back to topic.

Well, human instinct fears the unknown. We all fear losing our senses so that our surrounding become Unknown to us. We fear of getting lost in the world, since we become Unknown. If we have established good fame, we fear of losing it since it makes us something less Known or something worse, a Corrupted Known. When we see death, we fear it since we fear of facing Unknown and becoming Unknown itself.

I, for one, still am not sure whether I fear death now. If I am more useless to others in dead form, I'd rather be living. If I'm already useless, then I am already Unknown. Dying would just make that state more permanent. Would I then be able to redeem myself. I don't think so. I, therefore, try my best to live a long life in the chance that I could make any difference, no matter how insignificant.

(hopefully I haven't bored anyone with my long post)

Edited by veryfaststuff, 26 March 2007 - 06:32 AM.

Death brings innocence into the world.

Can you imagine the damage some of the most corrupt people could cause if they lived forever?

Death brings innocence into the world.

Can you imagine the damage some of the most corrupt people could cause if they lived forever?

Actually corruption is temporary, because eventually we figure out who's corrupt and who isn't.

Take Bush for example. He'd never survive another election even if he was allowed a third term, because people have totally lost faith in him.

The death/birth cycle keeps corruption alive because we're constantly getting new faces, and we don't know who's trustworthy and who isn't.

Death brings innocence into the world.

Death takes, it doesn't bring. Look it up.

Can you imagine the damage some of the most corrupt people could cause if they lived forever?

It is insignificant compared to the good that good people would do if they did not get constantly snuffed out, and need to be reconstituted from zero.

Most crime in the world is committed by young ignorant people, inflamed by undisciplined passions of youth. With age comes empathy, knowledge, and wealth. Even Moammar Gadhafi has mellowed in old age.

What goes around comes around. Just ask Ferdinand Marcos, Nicolae Ceaucescu, and Slobodan Milosevic among others. There are better ways to keep evil under control than by repeated extermination of the entire human race, which is what fixed lifespans do.

A world consisting mostly of healthy, wealthy, and wise senior citizens would be peaceful and prosperous beyond your imagination.

to veryfaststuff:

the most intelligent post on this thread as of yet