Attached is a chart of the Risks and Benefits associated with a list of some of the smart drugs from the book Brain Candy.

This book is one of the newest book on Smart Drugs, and having an up to date book is important. I like the risk/benefit analysis rating after every drug, vitamin, or item description. The book is an inexpensive primer to Smart drugs. Also, they are sceptical and that is a healthy perspective.

I dont think they would mind the chart I created with the risk and benefits numbers that they have on some of the smart drugs in their book.

I would love to hear some of your comments and criticisms to the chart. I was a little surprised how good Phosphatidylserine came out in their view. I was also suprised how low the benifits of modafanil were. Also, poor grades were given to Hydergine, deprenyl, and centrophenoxine. Deprenyl and centrophenoxine as well as vasopressin/desmopressin can be dangerous if you take too much, take other types of drugs (like deprenyl) or if you have certain ailments. This is a real eye opener. The authors think that people are unethical of their recommendations on the net since they have some equity stake in selling the products.

Well, I plan on continuing to take deprenyl and centrophenoxine but with extra caution.

Do you agree with the chart? What needs to be changed in your humble opinion?

pinball

oops, I am having trouble loading up this image. let me try once more. How do you add an attachment to the post?

pinball

I like you pinballwizard; I see myself in you! Give me some time to construct a worthy reply.

On the scale of 0-5 for benefits and risks, what does 0 and 5 actually represent?

For example, I cannot see how ginko could possibly be inferior to caffeine in benefit. One certainly is aware when taking a dose of caffeine whereas ginko tends to be undetectable in effect and benefit.

Can anyone answer why Ginseng has such a large risk?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684870800...346#reader-link

Is this the book you got the your information from?

Let me tell you what I think briefly, and I may add more to this thread later on.

Of those nootropics/substances listed that have a greater risk to benefit ratio, Vassopressin, DHEA and perhaps Ginseng are not remarkably useful nootropics, I question DHEA's potential use and Vassopressin may work to an extent but intranasal application for 2-4 hours of effects is not really warranted, I prefer all-day nootropic effects myself (through dosing once or twice a day).

Also I think Deprenyl is quite useful, and I do acknowledge it's possible side effects, but here we see suprisingly that the risks largely outweigh the benefits. I don't know if this is true, but I think Deprenyl use should continue, but more carefully I suppose. I'm quite skeptical of their results, and I'd also like to know what those numbers actually represent.

On the scale of 0-5 for benefits and risks, what does 0 and 5 actually represent?

Actually the scale is 0-6 even though I saw no 6s. 4 or greater according to the authors is an unacceptable risk.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684870800...346#reader-link
Is this the book you got the your information from?

Yes, Cosmos. I endorse it as it is a different opinion and that is good. You guys should buy the book if you want more elaboration.

For example, I cannot see how ginko could possibly be inferior to caffeine in benefit. One certainly is aware when taking a dose of caffeine whereas ginko tends to be undetectable in effect and benefit.

according to the graph it is not. I think what you wanted to say, was that you could not believe that ginko was better than caffeine. I agree. This could be a difference in opinion. The author likes the fact that Alzheimers patients have responded to the drug.

Can anyone answer why Ginseng has such a large risk?

The author says that Ginseng "lessens the effects of the blood thinner Coumadin and increases the levels of the heart medicatio digoxin." Also, imported ginseng is riskier...ie. Siberian and Asian. I know I am being brief with my answers. You will just have to buy their book and support the authors.

Of those nootropics/substances listed that have a greater risk to benefit ratio, Vassopressin, DHEA and perhaps Ginseng are not remarkably useful nootropics, I question DHEA's potential use and Vassopressin may work to an extent but intranasal application for 2-4 hours of effects is not really warranted, I prefer all-day nootropic effects myself (through dosing once or twice a day).

Also I think Deprenyl is quite useful, and I do acknowledge it's possible side effects, but here we see suprisingly that the risks largely outweigh the benefits. I don't know if this is true, but I think Deprenyl use should continue, but more carefully I suppose. I'm quite skeptical of their results, and I'd also like to know what those numbers actually represent.

Well, I am not changing my regimen of nootropics just yet, unless I have some sort of side effects. However, it is somewhat of an eyeopener. I was a little surprised of Deprenyl. The authors searched for studies on MEDLINE and said "that there was only one trial that assessed the effects on cognition." "In this study, deprenyl was a mildly depressent, slowed reaction time, and decreased the speed at which the brain processed information." I think that there are just so many things on the warning labels to look out after. Another thing to consider is the dossage that the authors talk about. It might not be what you are taking. For example, with deprenyl and centrophenoxine, I am taking a smaller fraction of their daily dossage. Common sense says I would get less benefits and risks, however I am sure its that simple.

In conclusion, I would be interested to see how you would construct your chart?? Anyone out there care to create their own chart? Or, perhaps you want to adjust the authors somehow?

Just stirring the pot,

Pinball

The reason I was surprised to see ginseng on the list is because it has been used for eons (ok...that is a stretch...but at least for a couple millennia). It has been used so long and there seems to be no obvious immediate or long term negative side effects. I mean, people would've noticed by now, if some bad stuff was happenning. The only argument I can see is that it might be harmful in more concentrated forms that are available nowadays. Of course, there doesn't seem to be powerful positive effects either, although the Chinese swear by it.

I think it is completely ridiculous to make any blanket statement regarding efficacy of nootropics across the entire spectrum; so I would take the account of the author of Mind Candy with a grain of salt (and a lime).

I agree nootropi, but the authors of "Brain Candy" are 2 PhD's and to me that holds some weight, but I remain skeptical.

I just like to play devils advocate. Yeah, the ginseng argument is a good one. Ginseng is just so old of a remedy. I think the warnings should be taken in context and with a grain of salt. It is good to get some diversity of opinion though.

Pinball

As I recall, a large amount of concern over ginseng is efficacy. You can't just say 'ginseng' and it be the same regardless of which region that ginseng came from. Though further studies might prove this to be an improper analogy, I'd liken it to the difference in benefits from bc-phosphatidyl serine vs. s-phosphatidyl serine.

Given the alleged potency of foreign supplies of ginseng over domestic, the concern then becomes one of quality control and the like.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...t_uids=10541774 may have some useful information for people regarding the efficacy of ginseng. Of course, pubmed also turns up a handful of articles arguing for specific signs of benefit. *shrug*

And yes, I see that this is an old thread. Oh well!

"large amount of concern over ginseng is efficacy"

If we are talking panax ginseng and not siberian, than my concern would be.....administering it to people who it is appropriate for. Best administered under the supervision of a little old chinese herbalist who has been doing this for >20 years. Panax is not really meant for e.g. routine use by people under 40 and certainly not under 30 (except under extraordinary circumstances). Not all herbs can be used routinely for everyone as can...e.g. ginko or bacopa. Powerful stuff and it can cause harm if used on the wrong person or inappropriately.

Not that anyone will listen LOL.

I think you guys have had enough time to look at my chart and construct your own. Who has the ego and the education to come up with an alternative Risk/Rewards chart? Anyone? Lifemirage?

--pinball

Here is a ranking I came up for myself. Your Mileage May Vary! This is just for me.




Now do one for yourself (if you dont believe in rankings) or for the normal bell curve and state which.

Hmmm those pics don'w show up with....mozilla but do with IE...

Yoga OK, but Bikram?? isn't that the one in the hot room??

Ya--"The recommended temperature is 105 degrees and about 60% humidity."

Perhaps you need to revise upward the risk of that one e.g. doing yoga flow routines in that room I'd rate riskier then regular exercise.

Again, some of these have health benefits...some are nootropic....

I think I've said it before, but I don't like adrafinial or modafinil.....I'll take powerdrvie or neurostim e.g. tyrosine + choline, etc instead...they increase not decrease motivation IN MY BODY.

Is that a table of benefits experienced by you in your body? If so I'm curious what kind of ginseng and what the benefits were/are? (siberian is a different species of plant then....e.g. chinese panax).

Oh and I don't understand what the risks are about in your table e.g. modafinil is very risky? Exercise? Perhaps I don't understand the scale of your y axis.

Yeah, Perhaps Bikram might fry some brain cells... good point. I love the debate. I think it relaxes me. The Finnish are pretty healthy and they love to throw a Lapland Gold beer on the sauna furnace. they swear it is great for circulation and getting out toxins and relaxing, and it seems to do it for me. Here though, the temperature is 105 not 200. And I am not sure the humidity is that high.

That does not matter however. They say no one really has any trouble in the Bikram. I believe it.

But, how about if you throw up your own unique combo up there compared to other things you have tried.

I know I am going to catch hell for putting ritalin up there. I think people don't want to put up there formula because they don't want the criticism. Remember to post what you think it is for you.

Post all you want guys...I like the constructive criticism. Don't forget to post your chart though.

Scott where does your meditation fall compared to fish oil and neurostem and how bad is modafanil and Piracetam for you?

I am going to get on a plane soon out of the country. I will try to continue to bump the topic [lol] while I am out of the country.

By the way guys to get the chart on here, I first create the chart in Microsoft excel, then I take a photo of it with the free snagit software, then I upload it to http://www.imageshack.us/ and then post the forum link they provide. It is that simple. Do it. [thumb]

--Pinball

I tried taking hydergine with a head cold; my nasal passages totally closed up and I really really wished I hadn't. Also, I've had problems with FAS hydergine and stomach distress. I never had these problems with plain old 4.5mg l'il white hydergine.

Thus: Hydergine FAS risk ~ borderline > Hydergine 4.5 risk ~ negligible

Anyone have any experience with liquid Hydergine? It's 50% more expensive, but supposed to lessen side effects and increase absorption..

I should and probably will create my own chart for the things I take, largely based on that book "Brain Candy" which has got to be one of the most useful in the subject area. I did use Excel to create a graph recently and then chose the option to create the display as a web page. You can then load up that page and copy and paste the image of the chart rather than use snagit. I expect with snagit you've got to edit out the rest of the page which is no big deal but seems the web page option might be easier and quicker.

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