Don't be fooled by the R-ALA nonsense

R-ALA has almost no solubility in water and is very lipophilic. In order for it to be absorbed, it must be taken with fatty food or oil. Taking R-ALA with extra virgin olive oil and your fish oil would be great. What the relevant company is doing is equivocating and misleading. They post a "graph" and omit the fact that R-ALA was administered without fat, and then compare it against their "R-ALA gel" which is already dissolved in a fat medium.

And they did the same thing with the polymerization issue. The only reason that the racemate polymerizes less easily than the R(+) is because it is a 50:50 mix of each enantiomer. Simply mixing R-ALA with some inert fillers will make it even more stable than the pure racemate. For example, AST R-ALA caps are packed with a significant amount of dicalcium phosphate and magnesium stearate for this purpose.

Hi Ryan,

You don't post much, but looking at previous posts you clearly seem to know what is what.

"R-ALA has almost no solubility in water and is very lipophilic"

I've seen it mentioned that lipoic acid can cross the blood brain barrier so it seems likely, but do you have a reference confirming that?

So what is your take on the ALA/R-ALA/K-R-ALA etc. Are you saying that R-ALA is the optimum form? Could you explain your thoughts/reasoning.

Thanks.

Click HERE to rent this advertising spot for SUPPLEMENTS (in thread) to support LongeCity (this will replace the google ad above).

Geeeze, Ryan thanks, I think. [thumb] Let me get this straight. So rather than just take my KRla straight, i.e., a cap every couple hours I should actually take several with my Flaxoil caps or my fishoil caps? What about my CLA caps? As I mentioned in Petes Plasma levels thread, I picked up a lot of stabilized KRla from iherb, which has a great discount on it from Doctors Best (to get an additional 20% off type in "ihn" in the coupon box for anything you order...) get lots of good stuff from them (NAD. Rhodiola, Celadrin complex with glucosamine, 7-keto, Methylcobalamin and Dibencozide (the 2 effective B-12 supplements) and more. Not to say I don't spend a bundel for premium formulations by AOR, cause I do, ie Ortho-Mind, Core and Bone in particular but with all there is to include in a well rounded program, it's nice to save a bit here and there as there is too much to buy to afford paying top dollar for everything. Sorry, I just wandered off point here but felt it worth sharing info on saving a few $

I guess we'll have to wait a bit to get the full package of info Pete will be sharing with us soon. Having spent many hours cutting my teeth on AORs excellent articles on RLipoic and recognizing the broad range of impacts this amazing compound affords us I hope the discourses in these posts will help sort out the pros and cons of the various options open to us. The cost of Geranovas stuff is quite high and yet if it truely provides a more consistant and longer term saturation of Rlipoic in our systems, I'll bite the bullet and incorporate their stuff into my budget somehow. However, if I can realize the same benifit by modifying my consumption patterns and save some $, all the better, as there are many items I can add with the $ saved. Presuming this is the case, I would begin spacing out my consumption of oily supplements (I use tonalin CLA, Flaxseed Oil and concentric coated fish oil) tthroughout the day to ensure they coincide with my spaced out KRla consumption...

Will this have any effect on the peakyness issues? Any thoughts on the above would be most appreciated....

Cheers all

Vastman,

There are too many articles showing alarming results with CLA. I could be wrong, but I can not recommend CLA. Search the forum under AORsupport's prior posts.

Of google Udo Erasmus and go to his site and click on..latest news to see health warnings on CLA>

scottl I wouldn't rely on Udo's site too much, afterall he has his "good fat" products he's selling...

You are of course correct about Udo.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. It is a little harder to write off the country of Norway:

The Norwegian food-authorities are now warning the following groups about the dangers of CLA:
GROUP DANGER
Pregnant Mothers Affects birth weight and height
Breast Feeding Mothers Reduces fat in mother's milk
High Cholesterol ------
Overweight and Diabetes 2 Insulin Resistance

This information was published on 16th January, 2004 in a full-page article in Aftenposten, the biggest “serious” (non-tabloid) newspaper in Norway. Here is the article in Norwegian Langauge: www.aftenposten.no

Norwegian authorities are now developing language for mandatory label warnings on CLA-containing products. Sellers will have print warnings on labels outlining groups who are in danger from using CLA.

In the following link to the Norwegian health-authorities you will find background/scientific assessment and press releases about this decision (in Norwegian): http://www.mattilsyn...ldinger/cla.php

CLICK HERE TO READ UDO'S ARTICLE ON CLA!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Search the forum for an old post by AORsupport with a number of very concerning abstracts.

da_sense

If you really want to understand what is going on with CLA search the avant forum for CLA posts by Par Deus.(CEO Avant).

I really don't understand why people would keep taking CLA when we've pointed out that it's not good.


http://groups-beta.g...bf8fd27d504586a

Ian Goddard May 14 2003, 12:07 pm

IAN: Thanks Tom for the additional info. Seems we
all agree that the reported CLA-induced increase of
C-reactive protein, lipid peroxidation, and insulin
resistance are logical grounds for discontinuation.

Conjugated linoleic acid induces lipid peroxidation in
humans."

Conjugated linoleic acid induces lipid peroxidation in humans.

Basu S, Smedman A, Vessby B.

Section of Geriatrics/Clinical Nutrition Research, Faculty of Medicine, Uppsala University, Box 609, SE-751 25, Uppsala, Sweden. samar@basu@geriatrik.uu.se

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is shown to have chemoprotective properties in various experimental cancer models. CLA is easily oxidised and it has been suggested that an increased lipid oxidation may contribute to the antitumorigenic effects. This report investigates the urinary levels of 8-iso-PGF(2alpha), a major isoprostane and 15-keto-dihydro-PGF(2alpha), a major metabolite of PGF(2alpha), as indicators of non-enzymatic and enzymatic lipid peroxidation after dietary supplementation of CLA in healthy human subjects for 3 months. A significant increase of both 8-iso-PGF(2alpha) and 15-keto-dihydro-PGF(2alpha) in urine was observed after 3 months of daily CLA intake (4.2 g/day) as compared to the control group (P<0.0001). Conjugated linoleic acid had no effect on the serum alpha-tocopherol levels. However, gamma-tocopherol levels in the serum increased significantly (P=0. 015) in the CLA-treated group. Thus, CLA may induce both non-enzymatic and enzymatic lipid peroxidation in vivo. Further studies of the mechanism behind, and the possible consequences of, the increased lipid peroxidation after CLA supplementation are urgently needed.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 10683436 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Clin Sci (Lond). 2000 Dec;99(6):511-6. Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Conjugated linoleic acid induces lipid peroxidation in men with abdominal obesity.

Basu S, Riserus U, Turpeinen A, Vessby B.

Sections of Geriatrics and Clinical Nutrition Research, Faculty of Medicine, Uppsala University, Box 609, SE-751 25 Uppsala, Sweden. samar.basu@geriatrik.uu.se

Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) has been shown in experimental studies to have chemoprotective properties, and may decrease the deposition of body fat. CLA is prone to oxidation, and it has been suggested that increased lipid oxidation may contribute to the anti-tumorigenic effects of this agent. The present study investigates the urinary levels of 8-iso-prostaglandin F(2alpha) (8-iso-PGF(2alpha)), a major isoprostane, and of 15-oxo-dihydro-PGF(2alpha), a major metabolite of PGF(2alpha), as indicators of non-enzymic and enzymic arachidonic acid oxidation respectively after dietary supplementation with CLA in middle-aged men (mean age 53 years) with abdominal obesity for 1 month in a randomized controlled trial. Significant increases in the levels of both 8-iso-PGF(2alpha) and 15-oxo-dihydro-PGF(2alpha) in urine (P<0. 0001 and P=0.0013 respectively) were observed after 1 month of daily CLA intake (4.2 g/day) as compared with the control group. The lipid peroxidation parameters had returned to their basal levels at 2 weeks after the cessation of CLA intake, and remained at the same levels for a further 2 weeks until the end of the study. CLA had no effect on serum alpha-tocopherol and gamma-tocopherol levels, or on the urinary levels of 2,3-dinor-thromboxane B(2). Thus CLA may induce both non-enzymic and enzymic lipid peroxidation in vivo in middle-aged men with abdominal obesity, without any side effects. The consequences of the increased lipid peroxidation after CLA supplementation are unknown.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 11099394 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]





http://groups-beta.g...1bad57da11044a6

Diabetes Care 2002 Sep;25(9):1516-21 Treatment with dietary
trans10cis12 conjugated linoleic acid causes isomer-specific insulin
resistance in obese men with the metabolic syndrome. Riserus U, Arner
P, Brismar K, Vessby B. Department of Public Health and Caring
Sciences/Geriatrics, Uppsala University, Uppsala, Sweden.
ulf.rise...@pubcare.uu.se OBJECTIVE: Conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) is
a group of dietary fatty acids with antiobesity and antidiabetic
effects in some animals. The trans10cis12 (t10c12) CLA isomer seems to
cause these effects, including improved insulin sensitivity. Whether
such isomer-specific effects occur in humans is unknown. The aim of
this study was to investigate whether t10c12 CLA or a commercial CLA
mixture could improve insulin sensitivity, lipid metabolism, or body
composition in obese men with signs of the metabolic syndrome.
RESEARCH DESIGN AND METHODS: In a randomized, double-blind controlled
trial, abdominally obese men (n = 60) were treated with 3.4 g/day CLA
(isomer mixture), purified t10c12 CLA, or placebo.
Euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic clamp, serum hormones, lipids, and
anthropometry were assessed before and after 12 weeks of treatment.
RESULTS: Baseline metabolic status was similar between groups.
Unexpectedly, t10c12 CLA increased insulin resistance (19%; P < 0.01)
and glycemia (4%; P < 0.001) and reduced HDL cholesterol (-4%; P <
0.01) compared with placebo, whereas body fat, sagittal abdominal
diameter, and weight decreased versus baseline, but the difference was
not significantly different from placebo. The CLA mixture did not
change glucose metabolism, body composition, or weight compared with
placebo but lowered HDL cholesterol (-2%; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS:
These results reveal important isomer-specific metabolic actions of
CLA in abdominally obese humans. A CLA-induced insulin resistance has
previously been described only in lipodystrophic mice. Considering the
use of CLA-supplements among obese individuals, it is important to
clarify the clinical consequences of these results, but they also
provide physiological insights into the role of specific dietary fatty
acids as modulators of insulin resistance in humans. PMID: 12196420


http://groups-beta.g...bf8fd27d504586a

http://groups-beta.g...bf8fd27d504586a

Hi All,

Sorry for the late weigh in, I am still covered over. It's all good.

Ryan- Thanks again for your post and comments.

R-ALA has almost no solubility in water and is very lipophilic. In order for it to be absorbed, it must be taken with fatty food or oil. Taking R-ALA with extra virgin olive oil and your fish oil would be great. What the relevant company is doing is equivocating and misleading. They post a "graph" and omit the fact that R-ALA was administered without fat, and then compare it against their "R-ALA gel" which is already dissolved in a fat medium.

And they did the same thing with the polymerization issue. The only reason that the racemate polymerizes less easily than the R(+) is because it is a 50:50 mix of each enantiomer. Simply mixing R-ALA with some inert fillers will make it even more stable than the pure racemate. For example, AST R-ALA caps are packed with a significant amount of dicalcium phosphate and magnesium stearate for this purpose.

Ok, let me help a bit. Ryan, try dissolving your RLA in olive or fish oil and please report back what happens (surprise outcome!). It is true that the RLA in the competitor cap was administered without fat. Why should they have administered it with fat, it is not provided with fat. And they are comparing dosage forms here after all right? That is not misleading, that is a simple honest comparison.

It is also not true about what is mixed in with the cap, this does not stabilize it, it just fills the cap. The inert fillers do NOT act at all like the s isomer is bonded to it. We are talking about a different molecule ® with some stuff added to it compared to rac-ALA, which is more stable because is it is bound together molecularly.

It is critical to understand that they have different chemical structures and different melting points.

The science is deep and wide, and easily confused, so this is good to have this open discussion. Again, I will post when I can but I may not be timely.

Hope this helps!

Best,
Pete

OK, so it seems the information we learn here is that taking our (Potassium)-R-ALA with fat is a good idea. One step more complicated, yes, but for the budget-minded like myself this is good to know, I cannot always afford optimal formulations and must do my best to come close on my own.

-John

OK FOLKS, thanks for the CLA info. I've just recently begun absorbing these forums, and respect you all very much and appreciate you picking out the one thing I need to correct/needed to reconsider even though it had nothing to do with the question/point of my post.

I was just looking at the oils I have incorporated which might be good to take with K-RLA and in the initial draft didn't even include CLA!!! Talk about the law of unwritten consequences... looking at my shelf I realized CLA was also an oil and inserted it in my post during an edit! I am really trying to do this right, ie, do my homework befor adding things to my body and obviously missed the CLA problems you cite. Guess that's my homework for tonight!

On a posting note, I must say that I have learned over the years that a little humility goes a long way. In this regard, LifeMirage always provides feedback with humility and respect for anyone commiting time to this forum. Spent much of my life a self richeous egomaniac and see a little of that in the tone of your response, stellar. You honestly think I am ignoring CLA's problems???? I was unaware, that's all.

I'm spending more time than anyone I personally know trying to educate myself on this field while busting my butt trying to raise a family, pay the bills, run a small hard working honest gardening business, give my 4 year old daughter the time and attention few children get these days, and juggle a zillion associated with all of the above and more. I try to read up on each and every compound I am considering or taking and look to this forum above all others for helpful guidence in my quest to become a better functioning human being.

I say all this in response to the tone or implication of your feedback, not the feedback itself... which I truely appreciate and will now get on with looking into. Life Mirage and they way he/she provides feedback, is someone we all should try to emulate a bit more. After all, I believe when all is said and done, we are all striving for the same thing, and should respect each other for it.

cheers all

Edited by vastman, 16 June 2005 - 10:26 AM.

Vastman,

There are too many articles showing alarming results with CLA.  I could be wrong, but I can not recommend CLA. Search the forum under AORsupport's prior posts.

Of google Udo Erasmus and go to his site and click on..latest news to see health warnings on CLA>

scottl, I just searched this forum and found next to nothing on CLA and nothing from AORsupport's prior posts. Did puruse the stuff you all cited here but from stellars comments I thought I'd see a lot more. LEF's forum also had little new cept references back in 2000. Figured this would have been a big topic somewhere that I'd somehow missed but it's definately hidden between all the hype pro CLA. I'll definately put the CLA in my rapidly growing "old vitamin box" where I have lots of stuff I'd bought (like costcos mega vitamin packets) befor I began to devote the time to this area it deserves. Guess I should post my full regime at some point, although it is still evolving and I am truely trying to base it on sound science, ala Ortho core, mind, & bone as my primary juice with several dozen other top-off products you all have mentioned. Am compiling such a list for my physician this week as well as lab requests LifeMirage has recommended to get the baseline data for fine tuning and tracking.

If I've somehow blown it on the search, let me know as I really respected AORsupports words when they were forthcoming. I'll suspend CLA anyway as of now. It's a welcome change to actually remove a big ole capsule from the mega wads I injest throuout the day!!!

Edited by vastman, 16 June 2005 - 10:33 AM.

Vastman,

It was easier for me to find where I had posted those abstracts on another fourm. I searached that forum and repost the abstracts here:

http://www.imminst.o...t=0

Ok- Just for forum readers, I just put up a special on the 1oz and 2 oz KRALA-10 liquid. No multi quantity purchase needed to get 20% off. Buy 1 or 100.

Here they are.

For less than a $1 a day you can dose 4x50mg of pure, stable RLA. And being a liquid, you can mix with water or whatever else you like. For all the reasons discussed in a previous thread, superior to KRALA-powder, and certainly to any other RLA.

If response is good, I will keep the price point. This is an opportunity to try it at a deep discount (Dana! :-)) and see the difference for yourself.

Cheers,
Pete

Hi Pete,

How am I able to see the difference for myself? What would I have to do? I ask sincerely.

Thank you,

-John

On a posting note, I must say that I have learned over the years that a little humility goes a long way.  In this regard, LifeMirage always provides feedback with humility and respect for anyone commiting time to this forum.  Spent much of my life a self richeous egomaniac and see a little of that in the tone of  your response, stellar.  You honestly think I am ignoring CLA's problems???? I was unaware, that's all. 

Whoa buddy, no need for that response....I didn't specifically address you. In another thread I mentioned to Da Sense that CLA increases insulin resistance. Scott warned him again in this thread and he dismissed it by talking about how Udo isn't credible. That may be true, but I felt the need to provide studies this time, so perhaps the few here would wake up and not take that shit ever again. Unless you like insulin resistance and increases in CRP.

Stellar, seems to me this info, hidden amongst "the R-ALA nonsense" would be better placed is a topic on CLA so everyone even casually perusing topics would be warned. How do we do this? Already started one, citing the pro CLA LEF article in this months issue of LE. Don't know how to link yet so am at a loss re: quickly copying stuff over to there. Guess I need to take some time reading forum tools... Cheers...gotta sleep and again, thanks for the warning/info.

to life....

Edited by vastman, 17 June 2005 - 09:06 AM.

stellar: "Scott warned him again in this thread and he dismissed it by talking about how Udo isn't credible."
I have only said it's not the best place for CLA info since Udo has his own line of products and might not be neutral. In my previous posts I said I'm aware of CLA side effects, that's why i'm not planing to order more anyway.
Please, try to be not offended is someone has different opinion than you. Tone here is somewhat different than on avant forums.

stellar: "Scott warned him again in this thread and he dismissed it by talking about how Udo isn't credible."
I have only said it's not the best place for CLA info since Udo has his own line of products and might not be neutral. In my previous posts I said I'm aware of CLA side effects, that's why i'm not planing to order more anyway.
Please, try to be not offended is someone has different opinion than you. Tone here is somewhat different than on avant forums.

I could be your tourguide and point you to some of the knockdown drag out fights on the avant fourm if you'd like

Hi Johnmk,

I am late as usual-

How am I able to see the difference for myself? What would I have to do? I ask sincerely.

Suggestion- try it before exercise or after a tough day. See if you feel more clear headed and have more energy within 5-15 minutes, it will be pretty apparant. Not like cocaine or coffee, but clear and smooth, not hyper. Versus other forms perhaps you could try one form and then a few hours later try the other. After about 2 hours, 3 hours max, we know your plasma levels are back to baseline. Try the K-RALA-10 liquid, about 2 dropper fulls, that would be a straight to the brain shot of 200mg. It is a beautiful thing. It would be impossible to take too much.

The ultra-economy trial size is now only $15.96 for 30 doses of 100% of excipient free RLA in a glycerin base (for bioavailability).

I love a RALA-Gel or two before a tough hike. Makes me want to run the trail instead of hike it [g:)] and sops up the free radicals created by the exercise.

Thanks for your question!

Best,
Pete

Please, try to be not offended is someone has different opinion than you. Tone here is somewhat different than on avant forums.

Please, understand I was not offended. This is the difficulty of internet communication.

I just wanted -you- to have the information for health's sake, I did not know you were aware of these issues with CLA.

Ok, let me help a bit. Ryan, try dissolving your RLA in olive or fish oil and please report back what happens (surprise outcome!). It is true that the RLA in the competitor cap was administered without fat. Why should they have administered it with fat, it is not provided with fat. And they are comparing dosage forms here after all right? That is not misleading, that is a simple honest comparison.

It is misleading equivocation if the information is presented without explanation and the company knows that most people are not going to understand.

It is also not true about what is mixed in with the cap, this does not stabilize it, it just fills the cap. The inert fillers do NOT act at all like the s isomer is bonded to it. We are talking about a different molecule ® with some stuff added to it compared to rac-ALA, which is more stable because is it is bound together molecularly.

No. Racemic ALA is an evenly distributed 50:50 mixture of two different enantiomers. The two enantiomers are not "bound together" any more than salt and table sugar would be bound together if you stirred them. Mixing R-ALA with a substantial amount of inert ingredients like those contained in the AST brand, for example, will make it even more stable than the racemate.

Hi Ryan,

It is misleading equivocation if the information is presented without explanation and the company knows that most people are not going to understand.

By your logic: If you are drag racing Corvettes, and one Vette has nitrous and a supercharger and the other one is stock, and it naturally kicks the other one's butt, is that misleading? No. One was simply superior in performance because it had better engineering (Some would also understand this as "Run what ya brung"). By your comment you would have the slow vette equipped with nitrous and supercharger before the race was run, or "it would be misleading". It was what it was, substance against substance, just as an average person has access to it. I fail to understand your logic. The whole point of the graph was to document performance. The RALA-Gel, dose form vs dose form, had a clear advantage in optimized plasma levels.

It is not necessary for one to understand what is under the hood in order to experience high performance. Bottom line- Stabilized R-Lipoic Acid using an MCT transport clearly outperformed the competition.

No. Racemic ALA is an evenly distributed 50:50 mixture of two different enantiomers. The two enantiomers are not "bound together" any more than salt and table sugar would be bound together if you stirred them. Mixing R-ALA with a substantial amount of inert ingredients like those contained in the AST brand, for example, will make it even more stable than the racemate.

It is clear to me that much confusion is generated by peoples (understandable) attempt to over-simplify the science. And their (understandable) attempts to achieve benefits at no cost or reduced cost. But sometimes, you "just can't get there from here", and there is no free lunch. R-Lipoic is a fine example.

Please refer to the following slides to better help you understand the science and the facts. Again, this is the first time anyone has seen this information- tip of the iceberg. Please notice nearly everything is referenced, so, if you wish to disagree, the bar is now set higher, and I would ask you to cite your references in your future posts Ryan.

Image 2
Image 5
Image 6
Image 7

Please folks, respect the fact that these are copyrighted graphics, if you wish to publicly post the slides you MUST receive permission from me or GeroNova FIRST. You may publicly link to these slides ONLY if you give attribution and a link to Relentless Improvement's home page. I would appreciate the courtesy of an email to let me know that you did link, and where from.

Racemic alpha lipoic acid is a crystalline structure and is a twinned crystal, the twinning is lost when it is resolved into the enantiomers. The addition of inert ingredients has nothing to do with the stability of the molecule. Please refer to polymerization bioavailability page on my or GeroNova's site, it’s all on there,

Racemic lipoic acid is a relatively unstable molecule due its propensity to form polymeric chains. There are significant stability problems, especially with the pure enantiomers which have a lower melting point and polymerize more readily than the racemic mixture.

According to Asta Medica, [6,348,490] RLA tablets were characterized by poor disintegration and dissolution profiles, such that RLA was only 9% dissolved in simulated gastric juice after 30 minutes, whereas racemic ALA was 100 % dissolved after 30 minutes. This means that unless the product has been stabilized and is not polymeric, use racemic ALA .

This also suggests the possibility that the insoluble polymer may accumulate in the GI tract over time, since it is essentially insoluble in water or gastric juice. In the lab it is insoluble in strong acids or any of the common organic solvents (even powerful solvents like DMF and DMSO).

A key point that needs recognition is that even the so called “stable” ALA used extensively in the nutritional supplement industry is still prone to polymerization, and is also hygroscopic, although more heat stable than RLA. Anyone that has worked with this material knows how sticky it gets during its conversion into solid dosage forms. The pure enantiomers are even more unstable since they melt at a lower temperature, lose crystallinity and form a non-recrystallizable glass. Technically, a “glass” is an amorphous substance, i.e. without crystallinity.

"In the solid state ALA appears to be stable. In the cases noted above the instability of the compound was apparent only when it was in a dissolved or fluid state. It appears therefore that once the crystal lattice of ALA is broken the molecules tend to polymerize under certain conditions. These conditions must provide for the opening the 1,2 dithiolane ring of lipoic acid. The necessary energy for opening or at least loosening the disulfide bond comes from the absorption of light in the visible or on the edge of the visible spectrum. Once these bonds are activated, the molecules in a non rigid state tend to polymerize." [JACS 78, 5079 (1956)]

The more SLA present, the higher the melting point, so that a R/S mixture of 65.8 % RLA: 34.2% SLA has a melting point of 54-58 degrees C and is less prone to polymerize. Labochim (Italy) has a dosage form commercially available containing a 70:30 mixture of RLA: SLA and that is more stable and less prone to polymerization than the usually encountered RLA.

In conclusion Ryan-
If you took just pure RLA and mixed it with pure SLA into a cap, the material would be very unstable, just like either one separately. Putting 2 different enantiomers together in a cap does nothing to stabilize them. This is not the same at all as using racemic ALA, which is a 50/50 mix of the two. The difference is in the crystal structure of the two combined. Mixing two different things together is different than than when crystallizing two materials together since the crystal will have a different structure than the mixture. Many people posting without a chemistry background clearly do not understand this.

When the two enantiomers are separated they become unstable because the crystalline structure is lost, when they are a twinned crystal, it becomes a more stable compound.

Best,
Pete

Pete thanks again for your time to make things more clear for the rest of us
This discussion brings new question. What about

"This also suggests the possibility that the insoluble polymer may accumulate in the GI tract over time, since it is essentially insoluble in water or gastric juice. In the lab it is insoluble in strong acids or any of the common organic solvents (even powerful solvents like DMF and DMSO). "

Does anyone have some studies on this? What if long term use of normal ALA is not so good for our GI tract? [glasses]

Hi da_sense,

Quite welcome!

Your question- That my friend is the million dollar question, where does the polymerized material go? No studies that I am aware of. Remember, the mainstream industry refuses to recognize it as a problem yet. Your question is astute, and dovetails back to my personal reason for not using ALA. Excipient and unnatural materials in my body. I am unwilling to ingest material that is potentially harmful. Yes, even to save a buck. Some posters to this board choose to not weight that issue with the importance it deserves.

My personal measure of what I ingest is simple, intuitive, and should offer Darwinian rewards:

Is it safe?
Is it effective?
Who formulated it?
Is it in a bioavailable form?
Are any possible risks greatly outweighed by potential benefits?

Cost is not in the equation, because after the above is quantified, I can either afford it or not. Period. I am unwilling to use ALA even if it were free because the risk is not worth the reward. I will not risk ingesting polymerized material, and I will not subject my body's receptors to the unnatural S-enantiomer. And I sure as hell won't take some allegedly stabilized powder RLA mixed up with a boat paddle in a blue plastic barrel!

What if ALA is not good for your GI Tract? You are now in possession of new information, and have to make the decison that is right for you.

Cheers!
Pete

stabilized powder RLA mixed up with a boat paddle in a blue plastic barrel!

LOL.....

R-ALA has almost no solubility in water and is very lipophilic.  In order for it to be absorbed, it must be taken with fatty food or oil.  Taking R-ALA with extra virgin olive oil and your fish oil would be great.

Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean to use olive oil to replace water to swallow the pills, or to use water to swallow the pills and then chase with olive oil?

I'm perfectly willing to go with the former, but if I'm going to take R-ALA four times a day, and use 2oz of olive oil to swallow with, well, that's 8oz -- about 1000 calories. On the other hand, adding a tsp (or even a tablespoon) of olive oil, after using water to swallow with seems to be reasonable.

Assuming using water to swallow the R-ALA, would you chase with the olive oil, or break the trail with the olive oil?

-- Rick

R-ALA has almost no solubility in water and is very lipophilic.  In order for it to be absorbed, it must be taken with fatty food or oil.  Taking R-ALA with extra virgin olive oil and your fish oil would be great.

Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean to use olive oil to replace water to swallow the pills, or to use water to swallow the pills and then chase with olive oil?

I'm perfectly willing to go with the former, but if I'm going to take R-ALA four times a day, and use 2oz of olive oil to swallow with, well, that's 8oz -- about 1000 calories. On the other hand, adding a tsp (or even a tablespoon) of olive oil, after using water to swallow with seems to be reasonable.

Assuming using water to swallow the R-ALA, would you chase with the olive oil, or break the trail with the olive oil?

-- Rick

From what I read, R-lipoic is best taken away from food. I remember reading on Gernonova's site that taking KRLA with fish oil with result in a more gradual delivery but I can't find the page just now. Why not take your RLA with a fish oil cap or two?

From what I read, R-lipoic is best taken away from food. I remember reading on Gernonova's site that taking KRLA with fish oil with result in a more gradual delivery but I can't find the page just now. Why not take your RLA with a fish oil cap or two?

I intend to do that, but I'm still confused about whether having water in the stomach at the same time is good or not?

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Hi Psychenaut,
Just a few questions..

According to Asta Medica, [6,348,490] RLA tablets were characterized by poor disintegration and dissolution profiles, such that RLA was only 9% dissolved in simulated gastric juice after 30 minutes, whereas racemic ALA was 100 % dissolved after 30 minutes. This means that unless the product has been stabilized and is not polymeric, use racemic ALA .

Ok, is it not true that 100% dissolved means nothing has polymerized?

"In the solid state ALA appears to be stable. In the cases noted above the instability of the compound was apparent only when it was in a dissolved or fluid state. It appears therefore that once the crystal lattice of ALA is broken the molecules tend to polymerize under certain conditions. These conditions must provide for the opening the 1,2 dithiolane ring of lipoic acid. The necessary energy for opening or at least loosening the disulfide bond comes from the absorption of light in the visible or on the edge of the visible spectrum. Once these bonds are activated, the molecules in a non rigid state tend to polymerize." [JACS 78, 5079 (1956

From this statement would seem that UV light or light of some kind is necessary for polymerization, after being dissolved?
It's dark in my stomach, the ALA comes in a dark bottle, does it "loosen the disulfide bond" from brief exposure to ambient light when the racemic ALA pill is travelling from the bottle to my mouth? Is it already polymerized?
I respect that you are a sponsor for this site. It's just frustrating when concerns are risen in reference to a given substance (ALA) by the person who sells the "better version". OTOH you sell it so you are aware of the properties of this substance.
This is all very confusing, "risks" of taking ALA are kind of dimly lit here.
I read all of the posts in this thread and it is not really clear why ALA is bad. It might be, but only under certain conditions.
Possible Polymerization/accumulation in the GI tract, but no clear evidence.
I agree with you that there is no reason to ingest "potentially harmful" substances, but sometimes due to budget I need to decide to either buy the affordable versions or none at all.

Why is the S-enantiomer considered unnatural?

It's hard to spend the big $$ unless I'm sure that it's necessary..thanks for your time.