<BJKlein> Chat Topic: Astrophysics with Dr. Michael Hartl
<BJKlein> Caltech physicist Michael Hartl joins ImmInst to discuss astrophysics,
<BJKlein> gravitational waves, and chaos theory, as well as assorted topics in
<BJKlein> transhumanism.
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=3508<mhartl> Hi everyone.
<Shawn> hi
<BJKlein> thanks for joining us Michael
<Shawn> how did you get into transhumanism?
<mhartl> In high shool I read Ed Regis's "Great Mambo Chicken and the Transhuman Condition"
<Shawn> did Schrodinger or Einstein influence you at all?
<BJKlein> sige note: strangly, Ed is not an immortalist
<mhartl> It was just serious enough about its subject to pique my interest.
<BJKlein> side*
<mhartl> Schroedinger and Einstein are both major influences in modern physics.
<mhartl> It's impossible not to be influenced by them.
<Shawn> what do you see in our future?
<mhartl> My own work is in general relativity, so Einstein is the greater influence for me.
<Shawn> the effects of nanotech..
<Shawn> Einstein is such a towering figure
<Shawn> it's almost like he came from another worlds
<Shawn> another worlds=another world
<Ocsrazor> Michael - have you observed any shift towards a more evolutionary shift in how astrophysicists view the universe/
<mhartl> Thanks to Shawn for all the questions. Anyone else out there?
<Ocsrazor> ?
<mhartl> I think that acceptance of anything teleological is low, but there is great interest in understanding the formation of structure in the universe.
<Ocsrazor> I meant a more evolutionary perspective
<mhartl> Cosmology is undergoing a renaissance right now.
<mhartl> What do you mean by "evolutionary"?
<BJKlein> mhartl, have you had a chance to read Brian Greene per chance?
<Shawn> as an astrophysicist, I'm curious what you think of Electrical Discharge Theory, the idea that dark matter doesn't exist and that there are large-scale electromagnetic effects determining the structure and dynamics of solar systems
<mhartl> I haven't read Brian Green, but I did attend a physics colloquium talk he gave based on his first book. It was excellent.
<Ocsrazor> michael - I was thinking from a complex or dynamics systems perspective...
<BJKlein> yes, i think i saw the same conf. via c-span
<Ocsrazor> most of astrophysics I have been exposed to seems to view the universe as a fairly static system
<mhartl> Back to the evolutionary cosmos thread... Dynamical systems theory hasn't been applied to the universe as a whole, to my knowledge.
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<Shawn> why is that?
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<Shawn> it would seem straightforward to apply dynamical systems theory
<Shawn> is it lack of computational resources?
<Ocsrazor> I was thinking along the lines of Lee Smolin thoughts
<mhartl> The universe presents a challenge from a dynamical systems perspective since the governing equations of its time-evolution aren't known in any significant detail.
<mhartl> There are hugely many degrees of freedom, among other things.
<mhartl> Trying to understand the dynamics of, say, two spinning black holes is hard enough.
<Ocsrazor> Curious what you think about ideas that there may be a 4th law of thermodynamics at work driving systems towards higher complexity
<mhartl> I haven't ever heard of complexity formation being codified as a law of thermodynamics, but I definitely think that something is going on.
<Ocsrazor> Stuart Kauffman and Lee Smolin have written some interesting sutff on this
<mhartl> Much of what we see around us complies with the 2nd law only in letter; the spirit is routinely violated because we live in an open thermodynamic system.
<Ocsrazor> kaufmann is a complexity mathematician/biologist and Smolin is an astrophysicist
<mhartl> I've read some of Kauffman's stuff, and I'm only passingly familiar with Smolin. One of his books is on my shelf; perhaps I should read it.
<Ocsrazor> Do you think astrophysics has a direct impact on transhuman/singularity issues right now?
<mhartl> There are possibly some tangential connections.
<mhartl> One aspect that it interesting is the prospect of interstellar communications.
<BJKlein> one thing that scares the hell out me.. heat death - or cold death..
<mhartl> Carl Sagan emphasized the likelihood of light (especially radio waves) as a communication channel.
<Ocsrazor> Im a neuroscientist, but I find myself looking for other fields with highly dynamic systems for good mathematical models - astrophysics being one
<mhartl> Given our current knowledge, neutrino or gravitational-wave communications seem more likely.
<mhartl> Both have the power to penetrate matter that would stop a radio signal cold.
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<mhartl> Heat death is so far off...
<Ocsrazor> What is your impression of SETI Michael?
<BJKlein> as an immortalist, the prospect of cold death, however long term, seems inevitable
<mhartl> It's likely that we don't understand all the relevant physics.
<mhartl> I'd be that a sufficiently advanced intelligence could find a loophole in heat death.
<BJKlein> should i call it heat death?
<mhartl> "Heat death" is the standard term.
<BJKlein> thanks, do you see a tech singularity?
<mhartl> SETI seems a reasonable endeavor, in the sense that we know that the laws of physics allow for life to exist. It would be great to find it if it's out there.
<mhartl> I am wary of public funding for SETI, though, given its highly speculative nature.
*FutureQ* BJ, what can I do to fix my problem with the chat app? It want me to reinstall the damn java plugin every single time. Why can't it remember it already has it? It caused my sytem to fgail last week making me have to reinstall my entire os.
<FutureQ> NJ, I PM'd you.
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<FutureQ> er BJ
<mhartl> First let me say that "singularity" is a term borrowed from black hole physics, and doesn't give quite the right impression.
<Ocsrazor> I agree, I'm skeptical that there would be sufficient chance for overlap with another species communicating in our EM bands
<mhartl> Singularities in physics and mathematics are true infinities.
<mhartl> The proposed tech singularity doesn't fit that picture.
<BJKlein> perhaps i can redefine..
<BJKlein> to say very fast increase in smart-than-human intelligence
<mhartl> That being said, the notion that the rate of technological change will eventually be so great as to be virtually instantaneous on current-human timescales seems quite plausible, even likely.
<Shawn> do you see a consciousness singularity?
<Shawn> just kidding
<Ocsrazor> some ppl are starting to propose tthat the tech singularity may actually cause a physical singularity - highly speculative - but fun stuff
<mhartl> I think that an honest look at the historical evidence supports the view that tech change is (at least) exponential, which means that a singularity will indeed occur some time this century using reasonable projections.
<BJKlein> mhartl, have you been to any transhumanist/cryonics events?
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<mhartl> I've been to several Alcor meetings in southern California.
<mhartl> I also attended the Alcor Conference in 2002.
<Jonesey> We met there
<BJKlein> supose you are a member then
<mhartl> Yes, since 2000.
<Ocsrazor> We may have there as well michael
<Ocsrazor> met
<Jonesey> You were there Ocsrazor?
<BJKlein>
http://www.imminst.org/leadership<mhartl> Quite possibly. I'll look forward to bumping into some of you at future events.
<Ocsrazor> yes
<BJKlein> Peter Passaro = Ocsrazor
<Ocsrazor> I was VP of LifeEx Technologies at the time
<BJKlein> under ImmInst Advisor
<FutureQ> I wasat Asilomar in 2000
<Jonesey> Hm can't say that name rings a bell, but chatted with michael a bit, being a caltech alum from a bit b4 his time
<Shawn> MIchael, what exactly does your research focus on in gravitation?
<mhartl> I was very impressed by the quality of presenters and attendees at the Alcor conference.
<BJKlein> mhartl, are you at harvard now?
<mhartl> Ah, Jones. I remember you.
<Coyote> caltech
<Jonesey>
<mhartl> I'm still at Caltech. (I use my Harvard alumni account for email.)
<Ocsrazor> How long have you been at Caltech?
<mhartl> My research in gravitation in concerned with compact binary systems as potential sources of gravitational waves.
<mhartl> is concerned with
<BJKlein> seems that the next step in astrophysics is to find the elemental component of space time.. does string theory seem to fit this bill or is there something more perhaps?
<mhartl> There has been some confusion about whether spinning binaries might become chaotic.
<Shawn> any prospects for anti-gravity or is that just a fiction?
<mhartl> This would ruin the major technique currently favored to detect them.
<mhartl> My main result so far is that chaos is not a problem.
<mhartl> That's the short version of my 234-page thesis.
<BJKlein> heisenberg for astrophysics
<FutureQ> Michael whaqt you just said about your research remind me of a question I've wondered about for a long time. What weird forces might oe expect to see as two black hole began to touch at the event horizon's any?
<FutureQ> How about 3?
<Shawn> what's at the center of our solar system? They say it's a big black hole but I don't believe it.
<mhartl> There are no weird forces as far as anyone can tell, but there would be a burst of gravitational radiation.
<Shawn> not our solar system, I mean our galaxy!
<Th3Hegem0n> Heh, gravitational radiation.
<Shawn> sorry, i'm doing too many things at once
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<mhartl> There is a 3 * 10^3 solar mass black hole at the center of our galaxy.
*Ocsrazor* BJ- any experience with blog software?
<mhartl> Sorry, 3 * 10^6.
<FutureQ> What effect might one expect on an object say parked directly at the center of the apex f two BH's orbiting eachother perfedtly never getting closer or away? anyything of note?
<Th3Hegem0n> wow.
<mhartl> The orbiting black holes that FutureQ proposes lose energy to gravitational radiation. They will eventually coalesce.
<mhartl> In the mean time, there is nothing particularly strange going on.
<mhartl> You might fall into one if someone gave you a small push.
<FutureQ> As you mentined rgav radiation, if it can radiate can it then be accelorated or decelorated? In effect then used for simulating anti grav?
<Th3Hegem0n> How does your work in astrophysics advance your interest in transhumanism?
<mhartl> My work in astrophysics isn't directly related to transhumanism, but my background as a physicist certainly influences my approach to it.
<mhartl> I think that many people dismiss the technologies proposed by transhumanists without pausing to consider their merits on physical grounds.
<mhartl> Nanotechnology, for example, is clearly allowed by physical law.
<Randolfe> Why does your work in astrophysics "influence" your approach to transhumanism? Is it because both are science based?
<mhartl> One can argue that it's 1000 years off, or something, but to dismiss it as crack-pottery is ludicrous.
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* BJKlein claps
<FutureQ> Oops
<Shawn> the believers will push it forward
<Shawn> being labeled a crackpot isn't so bad when considering that most of the great visionaries have been labeled such
<mhartl> My standard test for any extraordinary claim is, "Does this violate physical law?"
<BJKlein> mhartl, i suppose you have dreams of becoming posthuman and living via a networked existance?
<mhartl> The claims of the transhumanists uniformly pass this test, as far as I can tell.
<Ocsrazor> Michael - I'm considering writing a paper on why the brain is the most complex physical object in the universe, any possible challenges to this statement from astrophysicists?
<Jonesey> mike, any interest on your part in currently available life extension methods such as CR? we talked about it a bit at the alcor conf but can't remember what your feeling was about it.
<mhartl> As far as living as a posthuman goes, I think that my brain is too puny to comprehend what that means.
<Shawn> the brain is the most complex thing, gram for gram
<mhartl> Let's start with indefinite healthy lifespans for now.
<BJKlein> heh, good answer
<mhartl> To address the brain-complexity issue, I can't think of any astrophysical systems that would rival the brain.
<MRAmes> Ocsrazor: You will gain quite a bit of objection to the 'most complex' argument. There are semeral animals who's brains are quite a bit larger than humans'.
<Randolfe> Shawn, perhaps we immortalists should claim we "worship" the human brain because it can eventually enable us to overcome death.
<Ocsrazor> MRAmes - nowhere near the specified complexity though
<Shawn> larger than human brains: whales, elephants, dolphins.....
<mhartl> Black holes, for example, are extremely simple -- scandalously so.
* BJKlein slaps Randolfe with a bible
<Shawn> but bigger brains do not mean better when looking across species
<Ocsrazor> yep, very aware of the histological data, but they are structurally les complex
<Randolfe> BJ, make that a "book of science" instead of a Bible
* BJKlein nods
<MRAmes> Ocsrazor: Sounds suspiciously like you are defining complexity in a narrow way... that is fine, as long as you are up-front about it.
<Shawn> yes the brain will eventually enable us to overcome death, better sooner than later
<Randolfe> Didn't
<Ocsrazor> MRAmes - any definition I have come across, the brain is on top
<FutureQ> May Darwin bless you both, BJ and Randy!
<Shawn> there are many ways to define complexity
<Randolfe> Didn't Einstein have a rather small brain?
<mhartl> One area I follow closely is nanotechnology, and the public image thereof.
<Shawn> maybe an information theoretic definition would work
<Th3Hegem0n> Yeah I think so Randolfe
<Shawn> Einstein probably had a big brain. He had a big head anyways. Did you see the pics of him at the Solvay Conference with other physicists. He had a huge head
<Ocsrazor> the definition I'm considering using is the informational physics one
<Th3Hegem0n> lol
<FutureQ> Einstein had more than the average glial cells and a lesion in an area asociated with math
<mhartl> Any thoughts on the continued debate between the "establishment" (Smalley, etc.) and Drexler & Co.
<Shawn> I've heard he had an overly developed parietal cortex
<Jonesey> one sec lemme bop myself and create one of those lesions
<BJKlein> Smalley seems to have some important points wrong
<Jonesey> mike did you see my q re CR?
<BJKlein> to which Phoenix has helped point out
<Randolfe> FurtureQ, maybe having "lesions" in the brain can be beneficial if Einstein had one in the mathematical setion.
<mhartl> Jones -- didn't see the question. What was it?
<FutureQ> As I recall the lesin was like a long line or fold
<Ocsrazor> Michael - I will meet with Ralph Drexler in the morning, any specific questions you might have for him?
<Ocsrazor> Ralph Merkle -sorry
<Shawn> Einstein was a nicotine addict too. He jumped overboard his yacht once when he dropped his pipe in the water in order to retrieve it
<mhartl> Well it's Eric Drexler, for starters.
<Ocsrazor> I fused them
<Jonesey> Are you attempting CR or any other currently available life extension methods?
<FutureQ> I think I read about these in either Sci Am, or Pop Sci
<Randolfe> Shawn, your assertion about the size of Einstein's head is probably based on his fabulous and bvolumonous hair.
<Shawn> his hair was certainly big, but when you look at his head, it looks big too. At least that was my impression
<FutureQ> Google glial cells, lesion and Einstein and see
<mhartl> I tried out CR for a while. I suspect rather strongly that it works (despite the extremely lamentable recent death of Roy Walford). I decided for a variety of reasons that it wasn't a good fit for me.
<Th3Hegem0n> Heh...
<BJKlein> mhartl, in your picure there are two wine glasses.. do you have a partner in life?
<Ocsrazor> From the impression I get here at Georgia Tech, Drexler is respected as a popularizer and a rainmaker, but his science is seen as shaky
<Jonesey> rip walford. yep cr is a tough adaptation for someone who grew up in a developed country eating ad lib. I was lucky enough to spend my early yrs in a 3rd world country eating relatively little.
<Randolfe> mhartl, Roy Walford's death is a testimony to the power of our genetic constitution. If he hadn't had the ALS gene-susceptibility, he might have made it to over 100 anyway.
<mhartl> One motivation for abandoning CR was the likelihood (in my view) that medical progress will dominate the life-extension term for people as young as I am.
<Jonesey> walford started into CR very late in life.
<mhartl> Walford got extremely unlucky. CR isn't going to do anything against ALS.
<Coyote> Michael have you looked into intermittent fasting?
<Jonesey> I didn't believe that before the alcor conf, mike, but afterwards I started to wonder if I should keep counting calories. I think I will out of habit
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<Randolfe> Did anyone read the Walford obituary in CR postings. He traveled India eating little and taking the anal temperatures of holy men. Not a very pleasant type of research.
<Th3Hegem0n> Michael, that's my impression.
<FutureQ> Any thoughts as to the effect of the bBiosphere incident on hasting his illness?
<thefirstimmortal> Hey Randy, does the screen look much better
<mhartl> As far as a parther, Bruce, I'm working on it.
<BJKlein> heh, good luck
<Jonesey> randolfe if he was at least bisexual it would be extremely pleasant
<Randolfe> mhartl, the CRT folks and his obit say that his diet slowed the progression of ALS whioch I believe he got many years ago.
* BJKlein enjoys a little ultimate frisbee from time to time
<mhartl> Coyote -- intermittent fasting might work, but I'm thin by nature; I was really skeletal on CR. :(
<Coyote> mhartl: there are work arounds for that
<Randolfe> First Immortal, with one good eye, the screen looks better, colors brighter, life more appealing, my face more wrinkled. I get the other eye done this Tuesday.
<mhartl> Randolfe -- that's interesting. In any case, the ALS was a hugely bad break. CR probably eliminates heart disease, diabetes, and cancer almost completely. ALS is a whole different matter.
<BJKlein> good luck with the surgery Randolfe
<mhartl> Coyote: like what?
<Jonesey> "luckily" my family is prone to heart disease and diabetes. but who knows what else lurks with those eliminated. guess I'll find out.
<Coyote> like a very carefuly designed resistance training program, creatine, things like that
<thefirstimmortal> Did you all read "CI Member Cremated by Cousin"
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<mhartl> I lifted weights (and continue to do so off CR).
<Jonesey> yep weight training keeps my weight up nicely.
<FutureQ> "Luckilly"? Jonesy?
<Jonesey> thefirstimmortal sad
* BJKlein focuses on lower carbs than low cal
<Coyote> note the "carfully designed"
<mhartl> thefirstimmortal: I did read that. Just terrible.
<Randolfe> hartl, but Walford "believed" the CRT diet retarded the progresion of his disease. This ia all annedotal. ALS is one of those diseases that can come on quickly and kill you or take many years at varying rates of speed. I don't think science and answesr that question, yet.
<Jonesey> FutureQ "luckily" in the sense that those are causes of death that are clearly ameliorated by CR
<Coyote> hypertrophy is off topic so Ill just msg my email
<BJKlein> mhartl, let me ask one more quick question.. before the official chat ends in 10min...
<Jonesey> coyote:Yep lift heavy on the big muscles and for short periods, kind of like stuart mcroberts' "brawn" approach.
<Randolfe> Jonesey, "may the force be with you"! (science, of course)
<Jonesey> thanx randolfe
<Coyote> Joney I dissagree
<FutureQ> Ah, I see, I have diabetes right now, I eat 2 times a dayg but it's hard work for my folks to make a separate diet for me from the rest of the family.,
<Coyote> but its off point
<Jonesey> morphy@alumni.caltech.edu, email away
<BJKlein> should we be running in the streets shouting about smarter-than-human AI and the potential for it to harm?
<Jonesey> yep the humans are bad enough as it is
<mhartl> Running in the streets about AI is likely to confirm for the public that we're all a bunch of nuts.
<BJKlein> heh
<Th3Hegem0n> I say we should keep it quiet and in the hands of intelligent people, instead of the government.
<Th3Hegem0n> =p
<Jonesey> not so mike he could run around the sts of baghdad
<Ocsrazor> we should be preparing them gently BJ :d
<Ocsrazor>
<BJKlein> soft selling
<Randolfe> Jonesey, I read 100 emails a day from the Cr folks. They claim taht ewating more calories and then working them off does not work. You might live a bit longer and in better health but ultimately, onlyc alorie restriction really extends life.
* Coyote runs in the street shouting about people smarter than me the potential for them to harm
<BJKlein> ah little fuzzy AI.. it won't hurt ya!
<Jonesey> yes i agree randolfe
<BJKlein> Grrrrrr
<BJKlein> *snap*
<mhartl> I do think that it's important to consider the possiblity of malevolent AI, as I'm sure some people reading this have already.
<mhartl> I just don't think that most people are ready to hear it.
<Th3Hegem0n> Yeah considering the new movie coming out...
<mhartl> After all, even may well-informed people will still claim that AI isn't even possible.
<FutureQ> The world rightnow is in the throws of growing pains from technological chnage. Muslim nations fear it because they know they'll lose their dictatorial power and all religions will lose power with the coming of negligible senescence. ll this terrorism is really luddism.
<Ocsrazor> mhartl - I use the quote from Hawking all the time in talks
<mhartl> many well-informed
* BJKlein human = modern day indians to AI spanards
<mhartl> Ocsrazor -- which quote?
<Ocsrazor> His latest warning calls for the development of technologies that would allow human brains to be linked to computers, "so that artificial brains contribute to human intelligence rather than oppose it."
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<FutureQ> Who;s warning? It ounds close to my ideas.
<Ocsrazor> That is Stephen Hawking
<FutureQ> Cool!
<Th3Hegem0n> Hehe
<Randolfe> Everyone should go to the Hawking site and read "A short History of Mine". It is touching and inspring. I once sent a letter urgi9ng him to announce he wanted to be cloned "before" a cure of ALS was found.
<Ocsrazor> ~ Fall 2001
<mhartl> That's a likely scenario, in my view. Ray Kurzweil has helped popularize the view that we will eventually merge with out technology. It seems like a good bet.
<FutureQ> I've been pushing for embedded aI that is raised to identitfy itself as you as a Ultra Ego above super ego, ego and id.
<Ocsrazor> I like Ray, but his writing has huge technical flaws
<mhartl> Cloning Stephen wouldn't do much. We need to cure ALS, and fast. And get him signed up for cryonics.
<Jonesey> 15we have prototypical malevolent AI, computer viruses, worms, predator drones and whatnot. 01
<BJKlein> any reply from Hawkins toward cryonics ?
<Jonesey> and it can be argued that sociopaths are biologically generated malevolent AI but then one person's sociopath is another person's hero.
<Dad1> Robert Jastrow suggested that the next form of intelligent life will be silicon-based (not carbon-based) and predicted the linking of computer processing power with the human brain more than 20 years ago.
<Randolfe> Ocsrazor, if our minds are linked to computers, you assume we will be able to communicate with AI. I am not convinced that will be possible.
<mhartl> Apparently when asked abou cryonics, Hawking's response was "I'll worry about it later."
<mhartl> about
<Ocsrazor> Yep Dad1- we are hard at work at building the interfaces
<Ocsrazor> Why exactly Randolfe?
<FutureQ> Randy, do you have a url for the Hawking sire you mention?
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<Jonesey> big problem with even defining friendly/malevolent AI is this subjectivity.
<mhartl> Don't be surprised if those "silicon-based" intelligences are diamond-based.
<Ocsrazor> btw Randolfe, I would think an AI would be able to choose whatever comm protocol it wanted too
<Randolfe> I proposed "cloing" to Hawking (put up to it by a reporter at a London paper). His secretary replied that he prefeered "to reproduce the old fashioned way". However, Hawking later came out in support of cloning.
<Th3Hegem0n> The best AI would be one inherently structured to obey one person
<mhartl> The key point, of course, is that they will be non-biological, and hence not subject to the many limitations of squishy proteins, etc.
<Th3Hegem0n>
<Dad1> As in Jared?
<FutureQ> Exactly Heg
<Ocsrazor> Dad1 - i am at the lab for neuroengineering at georgia tech
<mhartl> Ocsrazor: nice.
<Coyote> To do about ALS for now:
http://www.lef.org/p...rtcl-008d.shtml<mhartl> Hope to try out that interface some time soon.
<FutureQ> And eacxh person have one of their own all linked together
<Th3Hegem0n> Whoa, I didn't say that Future :_
<Th3Hegem0n>
* BJKlein End Official Chat
