• Log in with Facebook Log in with Twitter Log In with Google      Sign In    
  • Create Account
  LongeCity
              Advocacy & Research for Unlimited Lifespans

Photo
- - - - -

Brian E. Trent - The Future of Immortality


  • Please log in to reply
2 replies to this topic

#1 Bruce Klein

  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 26 May 2004 - 01:13 PM


Posted Image

Chat Topic: Brian E. Trent - The Future of Immortality
Journalist, essayist, and novelist residing in central Connecticut, Brian is a graduate of Teikyo Post University with a B.A. in English and Philosophy. Brian joins ImmInst to discuss his recent article in the Humanist, "The Future of Immortality".

Chat Time: Sunday June 13, 2004 @ 8 PM Eastern [Time Zone Help]
Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat (irc.lucifer.com port: 6667 #immortal)

Posted Image

Cover Story

The Future of Immortality
by Brian E. Trent
Our society’s youth orientation has created a consumer culture devoted to prolonging our vitality and lives. But the most fascinating scientific development transcends dietary or exercise regimens. Perhaps someday soon, scientists will learn how to extend the human lifespan indefinitely, which may lead us to create a race of human “immortals.” This will inevitably change our attitudes towards family and aging, not to mention our understanding of life itself. Are we prepared to answer the questions this possibility will raise?

http://www.thehumani.../MayJune04.html

#2 Bruce Klein

  • Topic Starter
  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 14 June 2004 - 01:36 AM

BJKlein> Brian Trent - The Future of Immortality
<BJKlein> Journalist, essayist, and novelist residing in central Connecticut, Brian is a graduate of Teikyo Post University with a B.A. in English and Philosophy. Brian joins ImmInst to discuss his recent article in the Humanist, "The Future of Immortality".
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...st=0#entry32048
<BrianTrent> Glad to be here.
<BJKlein> sorry if the links are not working
<BJKlein> Thanks much for joining us...
<BrianTrent> I appreciate the invite.
<BJKlein> I must admit I havn't read Humanist article, as I've yet to subscribe..
<BrianTrent> You have a very interesting site here..
<BJKlein> but it's great to see it on the front cover
<Randolfe> Brian, I read most of your essay. Really good. I just wonder about your concept of "continual learning" since it is my observation that most people don't use the limited time they have to continue learning during their current short lives.
<BrianTrent> That was a surprise. They didn't tell me it would be a cover story.
* BJKlein nods
<BrianTrent> Randolfe, I admit I was being optinmistic in most of the article...
<BrianTrent> I like to think that with plenty of time on our hands, we could devote a portion of it to learning.
<Randolfe> My friend told me to go out and get the magazine. He had seen it in the bookstore but they were sold out at Barnes and Noble when I went looking for it.
<BrianTrent> A revival, perhaps, of the more classical science/philosophy found in the eras when science was foremost.
<BJKlein> How long have you been connected to Humanism?
<BrianTrent> Never formally. I didn't pay much attention to the philosophy until this publication, actually.
<Randolfe> Brian I thought your comments about the great amount of continuing output from Beethoven, Newton and Goethe was really inspiring.
<BrianTrent> Since then, I've come to deeply admire its goals.
<John_Ventureville> Brian, for those of us who have not yet had the chance to read your article, could you quickly summarize it for us?
*** Joins: Marquis (~Marquis@user-1120r0t.dsl.mindspring.com)
<BrianTrent> My article explores the social, philosophical, governmental, and scientific ramifications of immortality.
<BJKlein> http://www.thehumani.../MayJune04.html
<BrianTrent> Essentially, it is an endorsement of this kind of research...
<Randolfe> John (and others), it really helps to explore the links on BJK's email announcing the chat.
<BrianTrent> but it takes a long hard look at how the achievement of this goal will spell the end of the world we know.
<BJKlein> What prompted you to write it, Brian?
<BrianTrent> I had just read Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. It is his personal essay on mortality, and the entire theme -- indeed, a theme he beats you over the head with -- is that we will all die, it's inevitable, and we must accept it.
<BrianTrent> I admire Aurelius, but I disagreed... vehemently.
<BJKlein> excellent
<BrianTrent> I decided to write an essay, from the vantage point of my own century, and politely refute his thesis statement.
<BJKlein> Seems many come to the conclucion that death is inevitable first, and then make reasons why that fact is 'good'
<BJKlein> later
<BrianTrent> In fact, the motto of your site -- "Conquering the blight of involuntary death" is essentially the theme of my essay.
* BJKlein gives Brian a high-five
<BrianTrent> In my experience, most people accept that death is inevitable. The idea of immortality is dismissed out-of-hand.
<Randolfe> Perhaps I am a "conservative" Immortalist, but it seems to me real "immortality" is impossible. Accidental death will get you if you live for hundreds of years. I think we need an "expanded" concept of immortality which includes that reality.
<BrianTrent> I find this ironic, given the scientific accomplishments of the last 50 years alone.
<BrianTrent> Well...
<BrianTrent> Dr. Rose was careful about using the word "immortality".
<BJKlein> you're talking about Michael Rose?
<BrianTrent> He said that we must figure in a mortality distribution curve, something that calculates (or guestimates) the chances of death from accidents, disease, etc.
<BrianTrent> Even with this curve, he told me he expects humans to live 1200 to 2000 years.
<BJKlein> this is Aubrey de Grey's approach as well
<BJKlein> Aubrey = 5,000 yrs
<Randolfe> "Immortality" is something of an absolute. It is like saying I will "never" do this or that when circumstances might cause you to do so.
<John_Ventureville> indefinite lifespan or emortality might be better terms than immortality
<BrianTrent> The way I see it.... the thirsts of some human beings aren't easily satisfied with seven or eight decades. Immortality research, even if it can't give us eternity, can prolong our time on this stage. And that stage changes every few centuries anyway.
<BJKlein> Brian, what is your basic reason for why we should strive for physical immortality?
<BrianTrent> Yes, John, I agree.
<BJKlein> or emortality, etc.
<BJKlein> life extension..
<Randolfe> John, I think "emortality" is a great concept. It solves the "absolutist" problem while holding on to the ideal.
<BrianTrent> I believe in the potential of the human race. We are the only species to stand on the verge of extending life. I think good things will come of it, more than bad.
<BJKlein> thus, if you thought more bad would come, you'd commit suicide?
<TylerE> Sorry, Bruce, "emortality?"
<BrianTrent> :)
<BrianTrent> Nope, I'd accept the existentialist philosophy and move on.
<Randolfe> "Fighting the blight of involuntary death" does not exclude one chosing suicide.
<TylerE> "e" = "imm" or
<BrianTrent> Exactly. Death would be voluntary.
<TylerE> i.e. "im"
<BJKlein> TylerE, it's a term some use to get around the infinite (thus thought impossible) quality of the term immortality.
<TylerE> Ah, cute
<BJKlein> emorality, there was a series of articles from Till Noever via ImmInst
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...f=67&t=1928&hl=
*** Joins: dfowler (~dfowler@h00045af9c1c7.ne.client2.attbi.com)
<John_Ventureville> Brian, what do you say to those who believe a society of near-immortals will create a social stagnation which will limit the rising generations?
<BrianTrent> In our time here, we've reshaped the world to suit our needs... irrigation, metalwork, genetic engineering. Essentially, for every destructive advance we have a thousand progressive ones. Immortality research is a natural extension of what we've been doing thus far.
<BrianTrent> I address the very point of stagnation in my article...
<Randolfe> Brian, I thought your concept of "ever growing mind" was very interesting. I think everyone has thought "if I could just go back and be young again 'knowing what I know now'".
<BrianTrent> I think that yes, we could perish like bacteria in a petri dish...
<Jonesey> we don't need a whole lot of destructive advances to wipe ourselves out.
<Jonesey> we're there now in destructive capability.
<BrianTrent> but we might also achieve a new golden age, when freed of involuntary death we could achieve things we only dream of...
<BrianTrent> There was a time when I focused on the negative aspects to humanity...
<BrianTrent> But the truth, I think, is that we are both Id and Superego, to put it in Freudian terms.
*** Joins: gustavo (~gustavo@pool-141-156-92-185.res.east.verizon.net)
<BrianTrent> It wasn't so long ago we were stalking mammoth and waging war with each other over limited cave-dwelling resources.
<John_Ventureville> Brian, I think humanity has suffered so much over the millennia that we are like a released p.o.w. who cannot drop his guard and start wholeheartedly loving life once again due to the horrors in his past
<Randolfe> "Social stagnation" is understandable when you look at how generations get "stuck in time". How many old folks vote Republican?
<John_Ventureville> so even with the wondrous technologies coming, we still somehow expect more of the same (pain, war, death, scarcity)
<dfowler> agreed I think we are damaged goods
<BJKlein> So, Brian, have you given cryonics a thought as a way to avoid the problem of accidential or 'natural' death?
<BrianTrent> I don't expect some Age of Aquarius hippie revolution, when this technology is achieved. All change comes through a forge of suffering and, at times, severe violence. I expect both to accompany this revolution.
<Randolfe> dfowler, do "damaged goods" deserve immortalioty? Or should it be limited to those deserving of it?
<BrianTrent> Cryonics? yes. As a teenager, I even did a paper on Alcor.
*** Joins: Cyn (~Cyn@AC9B49B5.ipt.aol.com)
<John_Ventureville> Randolfe, to an extent I believe we are all "damaged goods"
<BrianTrent> The technology isn't there yet, however, but I suppose with no other options it's better than nothing.
<dfowler> we are damaged that is even more reason that we all deserve immortality
<John_Ventureville> and "damaged goods" as a larger social unit, i.e. society
<dfowler> right
<BrianTrent> I understand people who are concerned about the problems that an immortal populace will bring.
<Jonesey> an immortal lil kim of north korea...
<Randolfe> dfowler, you apparently believe in "redemption". My experience is that some people are "beyond redemption" however you define it.
<John_Ventureville> Hitler, yep!
<John_Ventureville> Stalin, yep!
<John_Ventureville> Hussein, yep!
<Randolfe> George Bush,. yep!
<BrianTrent> Every major revolution, from the Age of Exploration to the Industrial and Nuclear Ages, gives us a test to pass or fail. Immortality would be another test.
<dfowler> I believe in redemption because we all live in 'barbaric times' to quote BJ's post at MM
<John_Ventureville> Dr. James Hughes, yep!
<Jonesey> hehehehe
<John_Ventureville> oops!!
<John_Ventureville> *sorry!!*
<John_Ventureville> just joking
<Marquis> i like the term non-aging, rather than immortal. You could always kill a non-aging tyrant, but not an immortal one.
<John_Ventureville> physical trauma is a bitch!
<BJKlein> Brian, have you given much thought to the idea of Kurzweil and accellerating tech?
<John_Ventureville> even medical nano could only do so much if a mountain lands on you
<Randolfe> I love the idea of stopping aging. But, for me, that would mean living as a 66 year old forever. Might beat dying but I want to be young again.
<BrianTrent> About tryants... it was the first emperor of a unified China who built his life around finding immortality. He even sent people all over the Earth to ifnd it for him.
<BrianTrent> What kind of accelerating technology?
<BJKlein> AI mainly
<Randolfe> Don't forget Ponce deLeon hunting for the Fountain of Youth in Florida.
<BJKlein> but everything in general
<BrianTrent> I firmly believe AI will be achieved in our lifetime...
<BrianTrent> I can't say I'm overly excited about it, however.
<Randolfe> Brain, will we "control" AI or will it "control us"?
<John_Ventureville> Brian, what is your opinion regarding the singularity?
<dfowler> why not?
<John_Ventureville> AI may prove the loving parent/God figure humanity has always pined away for
<BrianTrent> About AI, imagine if you were thousands of times smarter, with thousands of times more data at your access, than the naked monkeys ordering you around. What would you do: Listen to them or figure out ways to improve your own chances of survival, as all srntient creatures must?
<BrianTrent> Singularity? I'm assuming you're not talking about black holes.
<John_Ventureville> no
<dfowler> Randolfe I'm reading the Quest for Immortality talks about fountains as a staple of immortality
<Randolfe> I'd kill any naked monkey that rtried to rule over me.
<BrianTrent> Exactly.
<John_Ventureville> singularity is when AI reach a point where they can increasingly exponentially upgrade themselves and their powers go right of the charts
<BrianTrent> Ahh...
<John_Ventureville> essentially what we were already talking about
<John_Ventureville> the consensus seems to be that singularity will occur sometime around 2030
<Randolfe> dfowler, what is "Quest for Immortality". Hope I don't seem too stupid.
*TylerE* You may want to kindly point Brian to SIAI's site, especially our moral AI theory
<BrianTrent> Difficult ot predict something like that. In biological terms, you're talking about the digital equivalent of introducing a "grey goo" into an existing environment.
<dfowler> it's a new book I got talks about history of the immortality movement back till its babylonian days
<John_Ventureville> Brian, back to your earlier comment about AI being bothered by the smelly primates around it....
<dfowler> really good
<BJKlein> Brian, for future ref., you may wish to see http://www.singinst.org for more on the Singularity
<Marquis> Brian, I became interested in immortality, through the philosophy of Neo-Tech www.neo-tech.com. Are you familiar with them or been influenced at all by them?
<Randolfe> dfowler, who wrote it. Post info on the suggested reading list.
<John_Ventureville> it is perhaps a mistake to anthropomorphize AI by giving them human-like emotions and motivations
<Randolfe> I agree, John. That is my entire objection to AI.
<John_Ventureville> despite all their intellectual power they may have no inclination at all to rebel
<dfowler> emphasis on pseudoscience and charlatans I'll post when chat is over
<BrianTrent> No. My interest in immortality came about when I realized that I would die.
<John_Ventureville> or develop any motivation other than following instructions
<BJKlein> Brian, put bluntly... do you think Death=Oblivion?
<BrianTrent> About AI, I don't think the average sci-fi scenario will be played out. Yes, it's easy to assign human ambition to it.
<Randolfe> BJK, isn't that equation Death=Oblivion the basis for all our beliefs?
*** Joins: Shawn (~Shawn@pool-70-16-22-189.balt.east.verizon.net)
<BrianTrent> Oblivion? Honstly, I think all the data indicates, "Yes."
* BJKlein nods to Randolfe
<BJKlein> Brian, thus would this compel one to embrace "Immortality" rather than "Emortality"
<John_Ventureville> but then again as they upgrade themselves they may make a "jump forward" where they become similar enough to us in terms of mental processes to be a real potential threat
<BrianTrent> Depends on which one is feasbile and achieved. Strive for one, live with the other.
<BJKlein> heh or die
<John_Ventureville> right!
<Randolfe> BJK, let's not get 'politically correct'. I'll settle for emortality.
<John_Ventureville> the Society for Venturism had a real fight within the membership on what to name our magazine
<John_Ventureville> I and others wanted the title to be "Physical Immortality"
<Randolfe> John, what were the suggested names?
<John_Ventureville> but this offended some for reasons already discussed here
*** Joins: MitchH (~john_doe@host-24-225-168-96.patmedia.net)
<John_Ventureville> "Quest for Immortality"
<John_Ventureville> "Immortal"
<John_Ventureville> "Indefinite Lifespan"
<BJKlein> Brian, every get into the questions surrouding free will vs determinism?
<BrianTrent> Yes.
<dfowler> heh
<BJKlein> do you have 'control'
<BJKlein> who are 'you'
<BJKlein> if we are atoms, what is the stuff that give us any control
<BrianTrent> Insofaras as what our potentials allow us. I've read B.F. Skinner and other psychologists who think we have limited free will, with relation to our biological impulses.
<John_Ventureville> ah, "stick the kid in the box" Skinner
<Randolfe> BJK, the "arrangement of our atoms", better known as our "genotype" gives us control. That is one reason whey I'd consider settling for simple cloning.
<BrianTrent> I don't believe in any supernatural elements affecting free will, if that's what you were asking.
<dfowler> I vote we eradicate some of those impulses via nano hedonic engineering
<BJKlein> randy, a clone with would have diff. atoms in a diff point in space/time = diff. person
<BJKlein> just like a twin
<Randolfe> "nano hedonic engineering" sounds like an anti-sex crusade.
<John_Ventureville> it seems to me that even a reductionist should feel personal freedom of choice at least up to a point exists despite the immense influence of heredity and environment, though I do admit they largely set the perameters
<dfowler> read David Pearce Hedweb Hedonist Imperrative
<BJKlein> Brian, thus everything from the big bang til now has a deterministic quality..
<BJKlein> it could be measured via physics
<BrianTrent> The fear of stagnation was brought up earlier; like in Anne Rice's books, vampire societies get stuck in their old ways of life and enter a state of torpor. That's certainly happened with some earthly empires/civilizations already. I think it would consantly involve a rebellion, a gladiatorial game between the elements of society which are comfortable with the status quo and those who want to further it and rock the boat. The story of our l
<John_Ventureville> I love the Hedweb website
<Randolfe> BJK, better a twin, a living extension of one's genotype than "oblivion".
<BJKlein> randy, better work for something other than cloning than to avoid oblivion, :)
<Jonesey> physics isn't quite deterministic, with the fundamental quantum aspect going on and the parallel universes where everything that can happen is happening and has happened.
<Shawn> the problem with the free will vs determinism debate is that no-one seems to know exactly they mean by "free will", lest they confuse it with randomness
<dfowler> we can take away those deterministic tendencies those awful impulses guiding our every move one of the reasons I'm a >H
<BJKlein> perhaps put the energy into a more leveraged vehicle
<BrianTrent> I do feel freedom of choice... I believe all humans should.
<Randolfe> Cloning is "the least" I will accept. I aspire to more.
<BJKlein> ah, that's cool
<BrianTrent> That will certainly be an important philosophical matter when an eternal society is brought about.
<John_Ventureville> I really could see a potential vicious horror on an epic scale between "extropian-types" and more statist people who just want to enjoy the "good life" which AI and mature nano can bring, but without utterly transcending their humanity
<Shawn> transcending our humanity is inevitable
<Shawn> I don't see how you could envision it otherwise
<dfowler> interesting point John...
<dfowler> really good point...
<BJKlein> Brian, are you working on more immortality related writings?
<BrianTrent> It depends, I think, on what you mean by "transcending our humanity"
<Shawn> unless they're content to live out their lives, and perhaps become extinct at some point
<BrianTrent> I write novels and essays on a variety of subjects...
<BJKlein> have you come across 'transhumanist' philosophy
<BrianTrent> Scientific, sociological, historical, and political. To me, they all tie in together.
<BrianTrent> Yes.
<John_Ventureville> I mean leaving our homo sapiens bodies behind to upload and perhaps become jupiter brain planetary computer brains, etc.
<Randolfe> I am someone who rarely reads fiction. I appreciate that most of the public loves it. I just believe in "non-fiction" and wonder why y0u choose to write fiction?
<BrianTrent> I prefer straightforward humanism.
<Shawn> i want a jupiter brain
<dfowler> wha'ts a jupiter brain?
<BJKlein> thus, Brian you wish to keep your biological body..
<BrianTrent> My historical novels are a fusion of fact and fiction. Fiction allows you to fill in the blanks.
<BrianTrent> Yes.
* BJKlein nods
<John_Ventureville> I want a very enhanced version of the body I already have
<Shawn> as i understand it, just a really big comp
<Shawn> or network of processing units
<John_Ventureville> the size of a gas giant!
<BJKlein> Brian, if your heart was bad, would you accept an artificial heart?
<BrianTrent> Absolutely.
<dfowler> good questions BJ
<BJKlein> how far would you take this?
<BrianTrent> I don't believe in biological purity.
<BrianTrent> I believe in improving the human life.
<BJKlein> what is you thought your brain was not smart enough to write..
<Randolfe> Brian, would you give up your entire body to live in a cyborg?
<John_Ventureville> Brian, to what percentile would you allow your organic brain cells to be replaced with artificial neurons?
<BrianTrent> Certainly, in improving the things that Mother Nature didn't think of.
<John_Ventureville> 10?
<John_Ventureville> 50%?
<BrianTrent> First, I'd need to see the success rate of the transplant :)
<BJKlein> would you accept a brain connected to a computer to give you more ability to write faster/better, perhaps
<Shawn> i think such improvements in replacing body parts or brain parts will occur in wetware before hardware
<Cyn> If our memories could be uploaded to a computer, would that be "us" our soul on the computer, or just a mere copy?
<Randolfe> Brian, once again. Can yopu envision "human life" as we know it without a "human body"?
<BrianTrent> replacing neurons would eventually lead to the debates on having back-up copies of your brain in case anything happens to the one you've got.
<BrianTrent> A tough question...
<Shawn> the biological system is so complex that it's easier to work with it than to try to replace it with silicon or titanium
<Shawn> at least for the near future i think
<BJKlein> Shawn, it's already happening now.. but the cross-over will be from regenerative to enhancement...
<Shawn> i know about the multielectrodes in the brain, but that's crude
<BJKlein> Brian, what if it happened in degrees...
<BrianTrent> If you go with Descartesian philosophy and strip away everything but the Cogito ergo sum, then I think you can certainly have a rationale mind without a body.
<BJKlein> small parts over a long time..
<BrianTrent> Everything we use to define humanity BESIDES logic and rational thought would be sacrificed, with what you're talking about.
<BrianTrent> Personally, I enjoy both.
<BJKlein> Brian, what's so great about 'humanity' heh
<Shawn> it might be easier to think about enhancing certain parts of your brain using grafts, or genetic means, or pharmacologica or growth factors
<Shawn> you could essentially grow whatever parts of your brain you wanted, transform it into whatever you wanted
<dfowler> nothing
<Shawn> just like growing a plant
<Shawn> and trimming it, and splicing it
<Shawn> you have to work with the biology, not replace it
<Shawn> at least not for the time being, until the hardware becomes much more advanced
<Randolfe> I want to have the "bodily" ability to smell, taste, hear, love, have orgasms, etc.
<Shawn> AI is a different matter though
<BrianTrent> Humanity is the one species that isn't a slave to every whim of Mother Nature. We've constantly remade the world to fit our needs. We generally look out for each other. we calculate the cosmos from our little corner, and figure out ways of reaching it, changing it, understanding it.
<BJKlein> we didn't stand upright for nothing
<John_Ventureville> Brian, I have known people who have not had children because they had such strong reservations about the future. Do you at all feel the same way? What would you tell any children of yours about the world they were growing up in?
<BrianTrent> Two thousand years ago, a Greek scientist figured out the size of the Earth using sticks and shadows. THAT is what impresses me about humanity.
<BrianTrent> The future...
<BJKlein> but, where does that stop?
<BrianTrent> I certainly have strong reservations about the future, and strong hopes as well.
<BJKlein> or should or could it keep going more...
<BJKlein> talking about advanced in tech..
<BJKlein> but are not your hopes and feelings based in 'human' thought..
<BrianTrent> Depends on the technology. I would definitely draw a line at an antimatter bomb.
<BJKlein> perhaps there is another way to think..
<Randolfe> We can do anything, accomplish anything. Nothing is impossible because we are thinking people with large minds and huge hearts and the ability to dream.
<BJKlein> cats, horses, etc think in certain ways..
<dfowler> you mean non anthropocentrically?
<BrianTrent> My concerns about the future keep me writing...
<Shawn> some perplexing philsophical questions have natural answers in different states of mind. The philosophical perplexities of today will be answered by the more enlightened/transcendent state-of-mind of tomorrow (and to some extent, today)
<BrianTrent> And voting...
<BrianTrent> Randolfe, I'd only choose cybernetic enhancements if they retained the senses and pleasures that my human body allows.
<BJKlein> Shawn, we're also limited by our language..
<BJKlein> the words we use, etc. and the medium
<dfowler> Perhaps a technology like AI will completely revolutionize our ability to think, how we think, and what we think
<BrianTrent> Your list is something I agree with
<Shawn> I was just thinking of Bruce's question of where this is all going..... and I was thinking that maybe that question may be answered naturally in a different frame-of-mind, a different perspective
<John_Ventureville> I just want everyone to know that until America has missles armed with anit-matter warheads which are aimed at their enemies that I will not be able to hold my head up high as a member of the greatest empire in the history of the world!
<Randolfe> Brian, you are my hero. That is exactly the way I feel!!!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<Shawn> but admittedly, your question is rather perplexing now
<BrianTrent> About where we're going... I don't think there's an inevitable Finish Line.
<BJKlein> Shawn, perhaps we already know the answer, basically we're headed toward more organization.. and jupiter brains
<BrianTrent> We make our own rules.
<BJKlein> univeral brain
<Shawn> we are too caught up in our notions of time now to really answer the question
<Shawn> the way we perceive time is a problem
<BJKlein> we're all connected to some degree now.. but more so in the future..
<BJKlein> we just need to stay alive to see it..
<Shawn> the way we perceive time leads to these perplexing questions of where it's all going and where's the future headed
<BJKlein> we're all helping now.. even the janitorial workers :)
*** Joins: Chubtoad (~Chubtoad@h-66-167-69-96.chcgilgm.dynamic.covad.net)
<Shawn> but my thoughts are that time is just an illusion anyway... where not really going anywhere
<John_Ventureville> hey, imagine how the world would look without janitorial workers!
<Randolfe> "JUpiter brains"?? I think I have one already. That is why I have headaches sometimes (ha).
<dfowler> it would be a sad sad world indeed
<BrianTrent> I think the most important thing for any society is advancement, in the artistic and scientific spheres at the very least.,
<BrianTrent> In turn, in societal terms.
<BJKlein> Shawn, i think perception of time is better if just think of degrees of probablity.. the is no time.. just probabilities of stuff happening
<BrianTrent> We've had Dark Ages before... even an eternal society would have this to worry about.
<Shawn> that's interesting, yes
<Randolfe> Brian, how do you see the role of "art" in advancing Immortalism?
<BJKlein> it more likely that i misspell 1 out of 10 words, is an example
<John_Ventureville> I remember as a young boy scout reading in Boy's Life magazine and reading a great article by Isaac Asimov about how robots could free human workers from physical drudge work.
<Shawn> and then you have many-worlds hypotheses which says that "everything" happens
<BJKlein> Brian, you agree with Darwin, no?
<BJKlein> Evolution.. etc
<BJKlein> our great, great... etc. grandparents were tiny bactera
<John_Ventureville> mine were highly culture amoeba's
<BrianTrent> Art is a canvas for the expression of everything that makes us human, when it's done well. Look at poetry (good poetry.) Our hopes, fears, our vision of proper society, our histories and passions...art isn't predicated on mortality (though it draws lots of inspiration fromt it. As I mentioned in my article, immortal artists may find Muses in something else.
<John_Ventureville> speak for yourself
<BrianTrent> Yes, I agree with Darwin.
<BJKlein> Thus, would evolution end with humans?
<BJKlein> is humanity the best
<Shawn> how about Stuart Kauffman, who saught to extend darwins notions by introducing self-organizing systems
<BrianTrent> Not all evolution.
<Randolfe> BJK, I reject my "bacterial" relatives. I kill them every day with Lysol.
<BrianTrent> I don't know about "best."
<BJKlein> Randolfe, you're an immortalist... respect your cousins!
<BrianTrent> It's a big universe.
<dfowler> hee hee hee
<John_Ventureville> in my dorm a group of students started an "activist group" which put up signs all over campus to defend bacterial rights
<BJKlein> heh
<Randolfe> BJK, I might be an Immortalist. I once considered myself a Jain (those who sweep the bugs from the walk because they worship all life) but I am now more realistic.
<BJKlein> 5 min til end of official chat..
<BJKlein> please feel free to stay!~
<BrianTrent> The thing about evolution is, we spite it every time we take medicine or give eyeglasses to children. We don't need, as I wrote, to surrender to natural selection. We spite it, and happily.
<Randolfe> I love "spiting" natural selection!
<Shawn> the interesting thing about evolution is that we're at a point where we can modify our own species, essentially. We are playing the role that Nature once played in natural selection. The possibilities for evolving our species, and other species, are quite fascinating
<dfowler> your funny randolfe
<BJKlein> Brian, what is 'mother nature'
<John_Ventureville> and that nerdy four-eyed kid can wear contacts or get surgery and still get a chance as a young adult with the pretty female looking for a mate
<John_Ventureville> again, playing games with natural selection
<BrianTrent> "Mother Nature" is just the anthropomorphic face given to the forces of our world... I certainly don't subscribe to the New Age Gaia Hypothesis, or anything like that.
<Shawn> why not?
<BrianTrent> I see no evidence for a consciousness of the planet.
<BJKlein> forces = measurable
<John_Ventureville> what is your view on complexity theory?
<Shawn> i'm impartial, but I was just curious
<BJKlein> forces = real and determistic
<dfowler> aka PlanetP
<Randolfe> Shawn, the most important statement in Lee Silver's book, "Remaking Eden" was his observation that "once humankind was able to conceive outside thge womb" it took control of its own evolution. I quoted that in my testimohy to Congress in 1997, I believe.
<BrianTrent> I mention in my article that we have a tendency to think of Nature as a Disney character, when in actuality nature is brutal, red-in-tooth-and-claw.
<John_Ventureville> so you are not a huge fan of the David Brin novel "Earth"?
<John_Ventureville> lol!
* BJKlein claps for Brian
<John_Ventureville> I love the quote "civilization is a protest against nature!"
<Shawn> I'll have to look for Lee Silver's book. Thanks Randolfe
<BrianTrent> Randolfe, what did you testify to Congress about?
<Randolfe> Brian, nature is so terrible I can hardly watch those National Geographic programs. Turned it off last night when the Polar Bear was closing in on the Walrus pup.
<Shawn> lol
<BrianTrent> :)
<Shawn> you've gotta accept Nature with her warts and all I guess
<BrianTrent> It's actually worse when you watch killer whales playing ping pong with baby seals.
<Randolfe> Brain,. I am the "Pro-Human-Cloning advocate", one of the few in this country.
* BJKlein End Official Chat
<BJKlein> ya, Randy is our CNN man
<Shawn> though the death and red-in-tooth-and-claw has a certain sadistic beauty to it
<BrianTrent> Good for you, Randolfe. We need more of you.
<dfowler> yeah Randolfe
<Randolfe> Thank you, Brian. I am often "underappreciated.
<BJKlein> Randy, if you'd just be easy on the bacteria..
*** Joins: kzzch (~kzzch@c68.115.14.8.stp.wi.charter.com)
<Randolfe> we could always clone them.Thank you, Brian. I am often "underappreciated.
<BJKlein> ya we know..
* BJKlein pats Randolfe on the back
<BJKlein> and kills a few thousand skin bacteria
<dfowler> heh
<BrianTrent> Thank you all very much for having me.
<Randolfe> Anything to get rid of acne.
<BJKlein> Thanks so much Brian!
<BrianTrent> I hope you all get around to reading the article.
<BJKlein> fun chatter tonight
<dfowler> thank you brian
<Randolfe> Brain, yo0u were really great tonight.
<Shawn> thanks Brian
<BrianTrent> Out of curiosity, are any of you from the New England area?
<dfowler> I am
<dfowler> Boston
<BJKlein> please consider coming back anytime.. and/or we'd be happy to post any of your work to ImmInst
<BJKlein> our members would love to give feedback, im sure
<Shawn> does baltimore count as new england area?
<Marquis> thanks for promoting the idea of immortality ...the more common the idea becomes, the more people will start to desire it, and the more market forces will seek to satisfy it
<Randolfe> Brian, I live in Hoboken, NJ. My phone nubmer is 201-656-3280. Give me a call and we can meet in NYC.
<BJKlein> Marquis, good point
<John_Ventureville> Brian, it was an excellent chat
<BrianTrent> Thank you... given the force that supports the modern day cosmetics industry, I think the market is already there.
<dfowler> Brian my number email is devonfowler@pop.entryhost.com
<BJKlein> we're getting there.. and articles like Brian's are where it's happening
<dfowler> love to chat
<BrianTrent> Best of luck and continued success with your site.
<BrianTrent> Thanks again.
<John_Ventureville> Brian, send me your mailing address to me at starman2050@cableone.net and I will send you a free copy of our Physical Immortality magazine
<BJKlein> heh, ImmInst is no longer Bruce's site
<Randolfe> Good night to all. I wonder why so few "spoke up" tonight.
<BJKlein> its the property of ImmInst members
<BJKlein> who's here?
<Jonesey> nite randolfe :)
<John_Ventureville> dang!
<kzzch> bruce, what's the deal with the investor forum?
<John_Ventureville> bye, Randolfe
<BJKlein> raise your hand!
<Shawn> but you're still coding the site, right Bruce?
<Shawn> i'm here
* Jonesey raises middle finger, i'm here!!
<John_Ventureville> Bruce, you should have declared yourself a hereditary monarch and not given up your website
<BJKlein> kzzch, it's combined into the ImmInst Full Member discusion forum
<BJKlein> because so little discussion
<Jonesey> buy oil
<kzzch> oh, okay.
<kzzch> heh
<BJKlein> John_Ventureville, i still act a little like a king now and again..
<John_Ventureville> lol
<John_Ventureville> Well that is your right
<BJKlein> but much less now.. for fear of loosing the chair
<dfowler> one of the rare discussions I attended
<dfowler> good one though
<BJKlein> thanks for showing devon..
<kzzch> so that's what jonesey looks like
<Shawn> Bruce, why did you give up the site?
<dfowler> sure...I'll show up to more
<dfowler> bye
<BJKlein> Jonesey is an ImmInst Lifetime member
<John_Ventureville> King Pizer the First reigns in this part of Arizona
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/fullmembers
<John_Ventureville> but he is not restricted by a parliamentary govt. like the poor president of Alcor
<John_Ventureville> what is the cost to be a lifetime member?
<BJKlein> hmm, who is King Pizer?
<kzzch> i just found that BJ
<BJKlein> ah David
<BJKlein> ok
<John_Ventureville> yes
<kzzch> Hmm, I was thinking of investing in Pfizer. I saw a commercial and they had the best motto ever.
<BJKlein> lifetime = 500
<BJKlein> bargan over infinity
<John_Ventureville> not a bad deal
<kzzch> "Helping people live longer, healthier, happier lives."
<John_Ventureville> I would want to live forever just to be sure I got my money's worth!!!
<John_Ventureville> : )
<BJKlein> like insurance..
<BJKlein> but in reverse
<BJKlein> don't be worth more dead than alive
<kzzch> heh, what if a jupiter brain decides i'd be worth more as paperclips? :o
<BJKlein> but, looked at in another way.. imminst may want to see its full members dead... hmm
<BJKlein> perhaps we need to reword that to 1,000 year lifetime members
<BJKlein> each 1000 years pay up 500
<BJKlein> that wouldn't be a very smart jupiter brain
<kzzch> i started keeping a journal and the date format i'm using is 002004.
<kzzch> i think i've got an extra zero on there, i only wanted 02004 so i could make it to 10,000 years old :/
<BJKlein> it's sorta cool in discussion topics with those who you know will look back in 10 yrs at what they've said an go, "man, i said that?"
<BJKlein> i've aleady done it.. i fear looking at what i said just a year ago
<BJKlein> re, ideas on 'humanism' being the goal, etc
<Shawn> bruce, what did you mean by giving up the site exactly?
<BJKlein> wanting to stay biological
<BJKlein> ah, i don't own it.. it's incorporated
<BJKlein> under imminst
<BJKlein> which is run by 7 member board
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/leadership
<kzzch> i've decided i just want live for 10,000 years and maybe try to help like minded individuals reach the same goal.
<Shawn> officially incorporated? really? wow. Congratulations
<BJKlein> ty, 501c3 nonprofit
<Shawn> but you're still the coder, right? Or do others contribute with the coding?
<BJKlein> i'm the coder
*** Joins: LazLo (~LazLo@ool-182c9f9d.dyn.optonline.net)
<BJKlein> but slowly shifting some work out
<Shawn> it's a good position to be in
<BJKlein> ya.. doing thing to make our mission to end the blight of involuntary death.. a reality..
<kzzch> we need an outreach program to young single college girls.
<BJKlein> that's what i do..
<Jonesey> easy kzzch recruit hunks
<BJKlein> putting together a film project now..
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/film.php
<Jonesey> imminst going in the wrong direction with people like me
<kzzch> i fear the party on the other side of the galaxy will be rather lackluster if it's full of aging male sci-fi geeks :)
* BJKlein slaps Jonesey around
<Jonesey> exxactly
<Jonesey> hehehe
<BJKlein> yeah, no respect
<Shawn> good luck with the film
<BJKlein> yo LazLo
<BJKlein> ty
<LazLo> Perhaps the geeks need to pay attentino to some of the topicsc that interest the women more. Hi geeks.. I mean folks
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/if]
<kzzch> great, i'll work on the imminst baby-doll t shirt designs
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.org/if
<Jonesey> haha
<Shawn> topics that interest women= clothes, shoes, the Sims, cleaning.... um, what else?
<Jonesey> hheheh
<Jonesey> shopping
<BJKlein> that chat event is still open for the ladies...
<Shawn> i'm just j/k
<LazLo> breaking stereotypes that are fostered by insecure geeks
<Jonesey> hahah
<BJKlein> what else can we do for the ladies?
<Jonesey> work out
<Shawn> let them know they're appreciated
* BJKlein worked out today
<BJKlein> did crunches ;/
<LazLo> provide themes that interest them, like issues of family, and afemale empowerment
<Jonesey> heh bjk really serious about outreach
<BJKlein> we need another female chat guest
<BJKlein> Sonia Arrison was excellenta
<Shawn> bruce, please don't post my sexist comment about women and Sims... if my wife ever saw that, it would be my head
<Jonesey> one theme that seems to come up more with women when i talk about immortality is fear of loneliness if they get reanimated, loss of friends, family. much more so than with guys
<BJKlein> Sonia must be a man in womans clothing.. she was all business
<LazLo> I see no problem getting women to pay attention when the politics interests them and they feel I am paying attentio to what they are communicating
<BJKlein> to late Shawn
<Shawn> argh!!!
<BJKlein> what is your wifes name?
<Shawn> lol
<Shawn> just j/k
<Shawn> Tabitha
<LazLo> Yeah that is a point consistent with what I meant about *family* as a topic of immortality
<Shawn> hehe
<BJKlein> Tabitha, please know Shawn is trying to hid stuff from you...
<Jonesey> immortalist community now reminds me of the internet 15plus yrs ago
<Shawn> lol
* BJKlein is mr open disclosure man
<Shawn> this is not Shawn
<Jonesey> mostly scientifically literate, hence male given the educational bias in society right now
<Jonesey> so just wait 15 yrs and it will all even out genderwise :)
<John_Ventureville> BJ is the one who put his foot in his mouth....
<BJKlein> yah, take a look at the chat lineup for the next few weeks..
<BJKlein> all brilliant guys
<John_Ventureville> "Sonia must be a man in woman's clothing!"
<Shawn> I should head out. It was nice talking with all of you again. Take it easy (but not too easy)
<John_Ventureville> EEK!!
<BJKlein> seya Shawn

#3 Bruce Klein

  • Topic Starter
  • Guardian Founder
  • 8,794 posts
  • 242
  • Location:United States

Posted 04 April 2005 - 07:47 AM

Please forward to BJKlein, thank you.

Hello,

I was a guest lecturer for one of your online chats regarding my article "The Future of Immortality" published in The Humanist. It was really a terrific experience -- very stimulating -- and I've checked back on your site to see the latest news/discussions on immortality research since then.

This has little to do with immortality research, but since some of you expressed an interest in my other writings, I wanted to tell you and others on your site that I've had a novel published -- "Remembering Hypatia." It's a very pro-rationalist book about the murder of the last curator of The Great Library at the hands of fundamentalists.

The website is http://www.rememberinghypatia.com. Thanks for visiting, and continued well wishes for your site!

Brian Trent

===

Thanks, Brian.

I'll keep in mind your novel, best of luck!

We're focused now on our film: http://www.imminst.org/film

Bruce Klein
http://www.imminst.org/bjklein




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users