Michael LaTorra - Transhumanism

Chat Topic: Michael LaTorra - Transhumanism
Author of A Warrior Blends with Life: A Modern Tao and World Transhumanist Association Director, Michael LaTorra joins ImmInst to discuss life extension, immortality and transhumanism.

Chat Time: Sunday Aug 1, 2004 @ 8 PM Eastern [Time Zone Help]
Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat (irc.lucifer.com port: 6667 #immortal)


Michael LaTorra

Mike's WTA Director's Profile:

Mike LaTorra writes and teaches in Las Cruces, New Mexico, USA. He is author of A Warrior Blends with Life: A Modern Tao. He serves on the WTA Membership Committee and the Editorial Committee for Transhumanity. He also serves as President of the Daibutsuji Zen Temple where he is in training to become a Zen priest.

http://transhumanism.../board/#LaTorra

Mike's Candidate Statement for WTA's Board of Directors Election Jan 2003:

Like many people, upon first encountering the ideas of Transhumanism, I felt a jolt of recognition. These notions were not something new to me, but rather a relatively cohesive and systematic arrangement of ideas that I had held for most of my life. The embrace of science and technology as vehicles of human progress, radical life extension, greatly improved physical and mental capacities, development of human-friendly artificial intelligence—these were already part of me. I could not tell whether I was coming to Transhumanism or Transhumanism was coming to me.

As desirable as these goals seem to me and presumably to you as well, it is all too clear that the opposition mobilizing against our agenda is very large and powerful. Even if (and it’s a Big IF) some or all of our goals will someday be seen to have been historically inevitable, I believe that the timing of their arrival is not. Millions of people, including you and me, might miss out on the wonders we hope to create if the goals of Transhumanism are delayed by a few years or months or, in the case of life extension, even by a few minutes. The difference between success and failure might be only as long your last breath.

That is why I want to serve on the Board. I feel a personal desire and a compassionate responsibility to do as much as I can to bring about the goals of Transhumanism in a rational, peaceful and cooperative way. That is my hope.

Toward that end, I bring my skills as a writer and communicator (I teach writing at the university level and have authored a book, A Warrior Blends with Life: A Modern Tao), my broad layman’s knowledge of science, technology and the humanities, and a diverse set of life experiences that span the second half of the 20th century.

I am, of course, a dues-paying member of the WTA. I serve on two WTA committees, the Membership Committee and the Editorial Committee for the online magazine Transhumanity. I am also a full member of the Extropy Institute. I have made cryonics arrangements through Alcor. I do volunteer work in my local community, including serving currently as Treasurer of the Border Network chapter of the Society for Technical Communication, and as President of the Daibutsuji Zen Temple. I have an eclectic educational background, both formal and informal, and can converse intelligently on wide range of topics (with the exception of professional sports).

http://www.transhuma...003.htm#LaTorra

18:07:10 BJK John, can you take over as host for me?
18:07:11 John_Ventureville if it doesn't work, "no harm done" is how I see it
18:07:18 John_Ventureville BJK, sure
18:07:21 BJK * BJK big thanks..
18:07:22 John_Ventureville I would be honored
18:07:34 BJK take care.. thanks Mike for chatting with us!
18:07:41 BJK seya
18:07:46 John_Ventureville BJ, is this being logged?
18:07:50 BJK yes
18:07:51 mike2050us You're welcome Bruce.
18:07:53 John_Ventureville cool
18:07:54 BJK loglady
18:07:58 John_Ventureville good
18:08:18 John_Ventureville BJ, do you want to do a quick intro before you go?
18:08:24 BJK Michael LaTorra - Transhumanism Author of A Warrior Blends with Life: A Modern Tao and World Transhumanist Association Director, Michael LaTorra joins ImmInst to discuss life extension, immortality and transhumanism.
18:08:28 Randolfe1 I came in a few minutes late and the previous comments didn't show, only new ones.
18:08:45 John_Ventureville Welcome, Mike
18:08:57 mike2050us Thanks. Hi Randolfe. Any questions?
18:08:58 BJK http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=3876
18:09:03 BJK * BJK waves
18:09:33 Randolfe1 No, I will catch up on the conversation. Just wanted you to know that technical detail.
18:09:33 BJK BJK (~BJK@[death to spam].12.160.15.40) has quit IRC [Quit: JWIRC applet]

18:09:41 John_Ventureville to start, how did you first become exposed to transhumanism, and see it as something you wanted to get involved in?
18:10:08 mike2050us In a way, I was a transhumanist even before I'd ever heard the term...
18:10:23 John_Ventureville a "proto-transhumanist," ahhh
18:10:30 mike2050us You know, reading science fiction all my life, loving science...
18:10:54 John_Ventureville ok
18:10:57 mike2050us In the late 1980s I met Keith Henson when we were both living in California
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18:11:06 mike2050us Keith was a member of Alcor.

18:11:09 John_Ventureville Keith is a very interesting guy!
18:11:12 John_Ventureville lol
18:11:30 mike2050us Keith is a one-of-a-kind brilliant and wild guy!
18:12:00 John_Ventureville I've never met him in person, but have heard some stories
18:12:26 Randolfe1 The name "Keith Henson" isn't familiar to me. What is the story?
18:12:31 mike2050us I had knwon of cryonics for ages, but hadn't taken it seriously until I talked with Keith.
18:12:48 John_Ventureville what did Keith say to make you serious about it?
18:13:00 mike2050us If you google Keith, you'll see his writings on memetics, cryonics and anti-Scientology stuff.
18:13:10 Randolfe1 Thanks.
18:13:52 mike2050us I had contacted Keith after reading an article he wrote on memetics. This in the pre-web days...
18:14:26 mike2050us He invited me and my family (wife and just one kid then) to a sci-fi club meeting at his home in San Jose...
18:14:35 John_Ventureville ok
18:14:57 Randolfe1 I got excited about cryonics back in the 1960s. Then I decided it wasn't practical. I returned these past couple years. The improved technology, existence of groups like Alcor and Cryonics Institute make cryonics much more possible.
18:14:58 mike2050us BTW, Keith is now on the lam in Canada after suffering a negative US Court judgment in a case where...
18:15:23 mike2050us the Scientologists sued him. He exposed them fearlessly. They lawyered him into a hole.
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18:15:55 mike2050us Anyway, Keith is an electrical engineer and computer programmer. He went over the science..
18:16:08 Lazlo Whats up folks? Are we in a holding pattern?
18:16:14 Randolfe1 I once went to a "Scientology" meeting expecting something like transhumanism (back in the 1960s). They kept mailing me things for nearly a decade.
18:16:16 mike2050us of cryonics with me which, at the time, included the brand new ideas of Eric Drexler.
18:16:40 Lazlo there now the posts are coming through, HI folks
18:16:52 mike2050us Hi Lazlo!
18:16:59 Randolfe1 Hi Lazlo
18:17:06 John_Ventureville I'm glad to hear Keith had such a good effect on you
18:17:25 mike2050us My problem with cryonics before was that I couldn't imagine how the freezing damage could ever be foxed.
18:17:47 Lazlo yechh scientology. Ironically though I watched Battlefield Earth last night on DVD and I was impressed by how they took a mediocre book and made an awful rendition
18:18:10 Randolfe1 In the beginning, keeping each body in a single tank and keeping it with liquid nitrogen was just daunting.
18:18:35 mike2050us After talking to Keith, I sent to Tracy's Bookstore in San Francisco and bought a copy of Drexler's book
18:19:13 mike2050us I was living in Marin County at the time and went through San Francisco on my way to work each day
18:19:31 John_Ventureville what year was this?


18:19:43 mike2050us This was around 1987.
18:20:32 mike2050us But it still took me years to sign up for cryonics. Wanna know why?
18:20:44 John_Ventureville ???
18:21:44 mike2050us Living the fallacy that 1) it costs too much--wait til I'm rich; and 2) there's always tomorrow to do it.
18:22:28 John_Ventureville many people fall for those fallacies
18:22:30 John_Ventureville yep
18:22:46 mike2050us With insurance cryonics is affordable. And tomorrow, without cryonics, you might get hit with a meteor and but truly dead.
18:23:04 Randolfe1 For me, cryonics is not very attractive--being frozen in a tank with others, etc--until you contemplate the alternatives of being burned to ashes or turning to mush in a casket.
18:23:53 mike2050us Ha! Yeah, the alternatives are FAR WORSE!
18:24:00 Lazlo What difference does it make who is in the tank with us? It isn't a hot tub.
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18:24:48 Randolfe1 I don't like the idea of being naked with a group of strangers even at minus 270 degrees. And don't they put the heads in also?
18:25:10 John_Ventureville I only want people of good breeding and a great sense of humor in my tank!
18:25:23 Lazlo Jeez I think that if we're dead already there is no amount of *experience* going on.
18:25:24 John_Ventureville *and good personal hygiene will be a must*
18:25:28 John_Ventureville : )
18:25:38 mike2050us Speaking of the cost of cryonics, there is another cost that I am disregarding deliberately.
18:25:41 Randolfe1 Another prominent member of imminst tells me privately that he "is going to have his own private dewar".
18:25:55 John_Ventureville good for him, if he can afford it
18:26:17 enoosphere What is the other cost?
18:26:19 Lazlo I think there ought to be a Van Winkle Prize to go with the Methuselah Mouse
18:26:35 mike2050us Wouldn't you rather share a dewar with some attractive others? Try the Hugh Hefner model.
18:27:01 mike2050us The other cost is money to spend after revival. I think it's not worth thinking about.
18:27:11 Randolfe1 I'm gay. That wouldn't work for me. Neither would male models. Maybe some people I knew.
18:27:35 John_Ventureville there are still some funny notions out there
18:27:37 mike2050us Not even the male models, Randolfe?
18:27:59 John_Ventureville Or the "I want a window in my dewar" comment!
18:28:03 Randolfe1 No. I don't like hanging out naked with strangers, no matter how good looking.
18:28:25 mike2050us Rudi Hoffman, who'se a greate cryonics supporter, is trying to develope a way to "take it with you"...
18:28:26 Lazlo My problem with the whole thing is that I am still unconvinced about the recovery and memory still and would like to see a healthy specimen (not dead first) frozen and recovered

TimFreeman mike2050us: Vaguely. I don't go to the zendo much, but I do agree with them on most things.
18:31:00 Randolfe1 Mikelorrey, believing in "a Belize Trust" is even more difficult than believing in cryonics.
18:31:07 mike2050us And can we count on a Common Law Trust be inviolable to future politicians?
18:31:46 Randolfe1 Getting anything done after you are dead is very very difficult.
18:31:56 MikeLorrey Actually, yes. The real issue is trusting those who are the trustees.
18:32:00 TimFreeman I never was clear on why Buddhists think elimination of suffering is so damned important. It's just another computation.
18:32:02 mike2050us My book A WARRIOR BLENDS WITH LIFE: A MODERN TAO is a free rendering of Lao Tzu's
18:32:25 mike2050us TAO TEH CHING plus my commentary, all set within a frame story.
18:32:26 John_Ventureville yes
18:32:28 TimFreeman Other than that, I agree with them.
18:32:57 mike2050us I am a praciticing Zen Buddhist. If I keep practicing, maybe I'll get it right
18:33:06 MikeLorrey Belize has instituted some interesting features in its trust law. For example, besides a trustee, there is also a Protector, who is supposed to watch the watcher...
18:33:06 John_Ventureville lol
18:33:32 enoosphere What does being a practicing Zen Buddhist entail?
18:33:38 TimFreeman Well, I don't agree about the reincarnation thing, but Buddhists don't seem to have a consensus on that themselves so I don't count it as essential.
18:33:42 John_Ventureville Mike, how do transhumanism and Buddhism relate to each other?
18:33:44 Randolfe1 The "Protectors" in Belize are probably as corupt as the trustees and the politicians.
18:33:58 mike2050us BTW, the best new Zen book I'd recommend is Brad Warner's HARCORE ZEN. He's a punk rocker
18:34:06 MikeLorrey Actually, you shouldn't judge Belize by the rest of the banana belt
18:34:24 mike2050us who lives in Japan and studied with Nishijima Roshi, from whom he rec'd Dharma Transmission.
18:34:32 Randolfe1 I'm considering going there and/or Costa Rica next winter.

18:34:33 MikeLorrey It was colonized by the brits, so it has a very strong common law tradition
18:34:34 TimFreeman Buddhism seems to be very much about human psychology. Follow the instructions and you will suffer less. I think that some amount of effort invested in suffering less is worthwhile, but trying to completely eliminate ...
18:34:34 TimFreeman suffering seems like going overboard.
18:35:00 mike2050us Tim I agree completely.
18:35:11 John_Ventureville Tim, when you consider how much humans suffered in the past, I can see the appeal of Buddhism
18:35:16 TimFreeman Suffering in a human is like friction in an auto engine. Pointless waste, but eliminating it completely isn't the point.
18:35:20 John_Ventureville and people everywhere still suffer so much
18:35:58 Randolfe1 Suffering is a great teacher. Learning the hard way.
18:36:01 mike2050us A large portion of our suffering does not originate with physical pain, but with our inability...
18:36:14 mike2050us to let go of fixed ideas.
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18:36:46 TimFreeman Randolfe1: Maybe I'm missing something. What did you learn from suffering recently?
18:36:49 Merlmabase Did I miss the party?
18:37:24 mike2050us Hi Merlmabase!
18:37:26 Randolfe1 Mike LaTorra, you can write two or three lines. You can go beyond the lines showing on the screen. I did the same thing myself for a while, limiting myself to the area shown while typing.
18:37:49 mike2050us Thanks Randolfe
18:38:30 mike2050us I will be giving a presentation next Thursday at the TransVision "Faith" symposium in Toronto.
18:38:42 mike2050us My topic is "Trans-Spirit: Religion, Spirituality and Transhumanism."
18:39:29 TimFreeman Gotta go. Bye!
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18:39:32 mike2050us I am a materialist, rationalist Buddhist who does not always toe the party line conventional Buddhism
18:39:38 mike2050us Bye Tim!
18:40:11 Randolfe1 There was a feature in the NYT last week about a dating site for "serious Buddhists".
18:40:30 mike2050us What I like about Buddhism is the focus on what individuals can do for themselves. No god, nor mysterious non-material forces.
18:40:55 mike2050us I saw that NYT artice online & forwarded to a Buddhism listserv.
18:41:24 Randolfe1 Isn't there a famous quote along the lines of : "Pursue your own survival with diligence"???
18:41:32 mike2050us Buddha taught that the self is a process, not an entity -- and certainly not a soul.
18:41:43 Randolfe1 I think it was supposed to be Buddha's dying words.
18:41:53 mike2050us Yes, Randolfe, the last words of the Buddha were to that effect.
18:42:39 mike2050us Except he did not say "survival." He said something like "liberation" or "awakening."

18:42:59 John_Ventureville Mike, do you feel any butterflies about your upcoming Transvision presentation?
18:43:09 John_Ventureville or does public speaking come naturally to you?
18:43:38 mike2050us A few flutters, but not much. I teach at New Mexico State University, so I speak in front of groups all the time.
18:44:06 John_Ventureville cool
18:44:48 John_Ventureville do large transhumanist conferences give you that "Christmas morning when you were a kid" feeling or are they somewhat humdrum to you at this point?
18:45:00 mike2050us The World Transhumanist Association will also hold its member meeting at TV04, and we Board members will meet, too.
18:45:21 mike2050us I love meeting with other transhumanists!
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18:46:14 mike2050us At transhumanist gatherings, I can look into a room of folks I don't know and get the warm feeling "These are my people!"
18:47:42 mike2050us How many of you are planning to attend Keith Henson's Far Side Party?
18:48:55 mike2050us It's the party on the far side of the universe where we'll meet up a few billion years from now to share our stories.
18:49:53 MikeLorrey gee, I'd hate to have to give directions to THAT party
18:50:02 mike2050us Ha!
18:50:18 Randolfe1 That sounds like transhumanism transformed into a modern "Peter Pan" idea.
18:50:36 mike2050us Mike Lorrey, how are things going in New Hampshire? I heard you on NPR.
18:51:26 Randolfe1 What was Mike Lorrey on NPR for?
18:51:52 MikeLorrey Oh, things are going great
18:52:13 MikeLorrey I was on NPR and NHPR regarding the offshoot Free Town Project
18:52:43 MikeLorrey we did a good job in the media and most of the residents of Grafton are either on our side or indifferent to us now
18:52:47 Randolfe1 Is that part of the Libertarian idea to take over the state?
18:53:07 MikeLorrey some FSP members wanted to try the experiment with a low population town in NH
18:53:40 MikeLorrey but it was primarily an effort to obtain very affordable land for residential development for FSP members
18:54:25 MikeLorrey I met with Governor Benson recently regarding Killington VT seceding to NH
18:54:48 MikeLorrey Killingtons legislation in the NH House has 15 co-sponsors already
18:55:22 Randolfe1 Zoning restrictions are very annoying. However, I wonder if political power won't see a "free city" as a black hole--just like nature supposedly abhors a vacumn.
18:55:32 MikeLorrey As for Grafton, we're going to lay low until Town Meeting. THe dems are going to try to pass a zoning ordinance in Grafton
18:55:38 MikeLorrey they are NOT going to win
18:55:50 MikeLorrey so once that happens, we're going to go full bore ahead
18:56:23 MikeLorrey nah, there are a half dozen towns without zoning already in NH
18:57:06 MikeLorrey so things are happening, moving forward, etc

18:57:30 mike2050us That's great!
18:57:34 Randolfe1 People and politiciaqns like to meddle in other people's business. The larger the town, the more people who want to meddle in your affairs.
18:57:50 MikeLorrey It is getting more and more exciting to see more libertarians move into the state
18:58:03 kzzch how many more to go, Mike?
18:58:47 MikeLorrey Well, nobody is obligated to move yet, but nearly a hundred have already. Membership is around 6,000, we've gote 14,000 more to go, so y'all go and sign up!!!!
18:59:35 John_Ventureville Mike, how do you respond to the naysayers who claim this libertarian community will self-destruct from in-fighting, or by coming into conflict with various government organizations?
18:59:48 MikeLorrey We're getting county LP affiliates organized, and FSP local groups are active in half the state already
19:00:33 MikeLorrey Well, I say that we've already weathered the storm with a few individuals who have saboteur personalities
19:00:41 MikeLorrey and we are still going strong
19:01:03 John_Ventureville that is a good sign
19:01:08 MikeLorrey Chuck Geshlider and his girlfriend tried to sabotage things here,
19:01:13 John_Ventureville how?
19:01:22 MikeLorrey but we just shunned them and they moved out of state
19:01:29 kzzch Was that the FTP fiasco?
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19:01:55 MikeLorrey The FTP wasn't a fiasco, but the problem with that was a fellow named Zack Bass
19:02:37 MikeLorrey Chuck tried to bankrupt us with a fanciful project to attract the Red Sox to NH as a financial strategy to end the Curse of the Bambino
19:03:03 kzzch o_O
19:03:26 John_Ventureville Mike, I wish you good luck in this fascinating venture
19:03:41 MikeLorrey The problem with Zack was that he writes his stuff online aimed solely at extreme libertarians
19:04:10 MikeLorrey without recognition that he has non-libertarians reading him too and using his extreme statements to smear us all
19:06:07 MikeLorrey Thanks. I want to encourage transhumanists to join the FSP. IMHO it is the best long term solution to protecting our future against luddism
19:06:09 kzzch That's too bad.
19:07:06 John_Ventureville for Michael LaTorra, our special guest tonight, "Mike, what are your goals for the World Transhumanist Association?"
19:08:06 mike2050us My goals are perhaps best summarized in my definition of transhumanism: "High-tech life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness beyond human limits."
19:08:29 John_Ventureville sounds good to me
19:09:17 John_Ventureville I realize it is a touchy issue, but do you have any comments about the recent strife among WTA leaders? Do you feel it has been resolved satisfactorily?
19:09:35 mike2050us The WTA is a non-profit 501©3 organization, so we can advocate but we cannot directly involve ourselves in politics.
19:10:13 John_Ventureville Or has the WTA been permanently marred by the contention and "bad blood" it engendered?

19:10:58 mike2050us I posted a statement to the extropy list and the wta-talk lists on this topic. The Subject header was: Comments on the late unpleasantness on the WTA Board
19:11:25 mike2050us I think the WTA was harmed a little by this, but not mortally wounded.
19:11:33 John_Ventureville that's good to hear
19:12:31 mike2050us As the public begins to hear the word "transhumanism" more often, there needs to be a group like the WTA to give them the facts about it.
19:12:47 John_Ventureville in what direction is Dr. Hughes planning to take the organization?
19:13:02 mike2050us Too many people hear only scare stories about how technology is enslaving humanity and destorying the biosphere. That's simply untrue.
19:13:28 John_Ventureville and films like "I, Robot" don't always help
19:13:41 mike2050us James Hughes is a very active and intelligent guy and I think he's been an effective Executive Director.
19:14:12 John_Ventureville how forceful is his personality?
19:14:14 mike2050us I've stayed away from "I, Robot" because I don't like what I've been hearing about it.
19:14:25 Captain_Integral do you think that the view of technology as a tool needs to be revised
19:14:50 MikeLorrey Has James moderated his goals of using the WTA as a socialist counterbalance to ExI?
19:14:50 John_Ventureville it was a better film than I had expected
19:14:54 mike2050us I think technology is misunderstood by many people.
19:15:47 mike2050us WTA will not allow itself to be used to promote socialism or any other economic ideology.
19:16:06 John_Ventureville interesting
19:16:35 mike2050us On the WTA Board, we have goals for enabling (technically and legally) human enhancement.
19:16:59 kzzch I Robot was pretty >H friendly. a cyborg, a robot, and nanotech saved the day.
19:17:23 John_Ventureville Mike, can you share with us the size of your membership and what kind of budget the WTA operates with, and hopes to in the future?
19:17:37 mike2050us In the WTA we have libertarians, socialists, moderates and "I don't care what, just let me upload" types of folks.
19:17:47 John_Ventureville I guess I'm asking if you feel you have sufficient resources to attain your goals
19:18:06 John_Ventureville lol, transhumanists do come in many different favors
19:18:07 mike2050us The WTA membership includes duespaying and free members. Total membership is a few thousand.
19:18:10 John_Ventureville *flavors*
19:18:27 John_Ventureville a few thousand is pretty damn good!
19:18:34 John_Ventureville I'm impressed
19:18:49 John_Ventureville what percentage of your membership are not U.S. citizens?
19:19:02 mike2050us Regarding WTA resources, we are planning big but we know it will take time to get what we need.
19:19:09 John_Ventureville sure
19:19:17 mike2050us About 25% of our members our outside the USA.

19:19:19 John_Ventureville what will be your primary funding sources?
19:19:44 mike2050us Let me pause for a monent, John to say another thing about resources...
19:19:48 John_Ventureville ok
19:20:32 mike2050us We have looked into the resources of some anti-biotech groups. These often have no ordinary members, only a small staff and some big time contributors.
19:21:15 John_Ventureville transhumanists need their own "big time" contributors!
19:21:19 mike2050us One such group (which I won't name right now) has an excellent web page that lists the many talks, conferences and pulbications it has done in the past year.
19:21:38 mike2050us They are much more active than our side, and have roughly 50 times more money!
19:21:39 MikeLorrey I highly suggest you approach big money groups like the Howard Hughest Medical Foundation...
19:22:13 MikeLorrey and that foundation that financed the Frontier House and Pioneer House shows on PBS
19:22:27 John_Ventureville Mike, what frustrates me is that you *would think* big money contributors would be out there in droves for serious transhumanist groups like the WTA
19:22:35 mike2050us We have a professional fundraiser who is donating his time to us. But we've barely scratched the surface of what needs to be done.
19:22:46 John_Ventureville with all the high tech wealthy out there
19:23:09 John_Ventureville not too mention certain extremely wealthy individuals who are currently signed up for cryonics
19:23:35 mike2050us I agree that there should be lots of high-tech millionaires who would side with us. But getting to them is not so easy.
19:24:06 John_Ventureville generally, as people become wealthier they become much harder to persuade to spread the wealth around
19:24:09 mike2050us One thing we've learned from our professional fundraiser is that the personal touch is stll important.
19:24:30 John_Ventureville because they get hit so often with requests for donations
19:24:36 John_Ventureville so they get hardened
19:24:42 John_Ventureville the personal touch is very key
19:24:45 mike2050us Wealthy individuals get approached for donations all the time. The only solicitations they seriously entertain come thorugh (if not directly from) people they already know.
19:25:11 John_Ventureville or they set up a special foundation as a very discriminating filter for themselves
19:25:50 mike2050us Most of their foundations are aimed at some cause they support, often a medical one related to the diseases affecting their loved ones.
19:25:55 MikeLorrey How about grassroots fundraising?
19:26:31 mike2050us Grassroots fundraising is very expensive, when viewed in terms of outlay per dollar gaimed.
19:27:44 John_Ventureville how about starting a business and raising funds that way?
19:27:48 MikeLorrey True, but from my own experience in this area, this is what you use the big donor money to fund, since the grassroots return can be huge if it is targeted well
19:27:48 John_Ventureville ; )
19:27:54 mike2050us It's a lot less expensive perparing materials to convince a wealthy person to write a $200,000 check than it is to get 10,000 people to write $20 cehcks.
19:28:34 RJB RJB (root@[death to spam].dsl-156-155.atm02.sea.blarg.net) has joined #immortal

19:29:02 mike2050us Yes, Mike Lorrey is correct that the wealthy donor may be funding the grassroots effort. For the latter to succeed, we need really good contact lists!

19:29:19 John_Ventureville and getting those can be a real challenge
19:29:28 John_Ventureville I know from my business experience
19:31:21 mike2050us The long term strength of transhumanism, I think, is that our message is much more hopeful and attractive than the fear-mongering from the other side.
19:32:02 mike2050us The luddites may say that living close to the earth and being buried in it after our three-score-and-ten years is the ideal. We disagree.
19:32:48 John_Ventureville Mike, what do you think of the idea of spreading transhumanism via grassroots student organizations based on university campuses across the nation?
19:32:57 mike2050us Personally, I'd prefer to keep a vacation home on earth while doing business in the industrial areas of the outter solar system and no getting buried at all. Ever.
19:33:04 John_Ventureville and the world?
19:33:45 mike2050us Grassroots student organizations, like most orgs, need at least one person to start things and keep them rolling.
19:33:59 John_Ventureville very true
19:34:24 mike2050us So far, the most successful student group I know of is Ben Hijink's in the Chicago area. Ben is just exceptional. We need many more like him.
19:35:16 mike2050us I serve on the WTA membership committee. I see lots of emails from interested students. But few ever follow through.
19:35:44 John_Ventureville I have heard stories of how the Extropian group based at MIT was blown away by a public relations disaster
19:36:02 mike2050us We do have a very large group (students and not) that has formed in Finland. They would like to hold a TransVision conference there.
19:36:05 MikeLorrey I wouldn't say that
19:36:13 mike2050us What happend at MIT Mike?
19:37:04 MikeLorrey The group passed out pamphlets to freshman and visiting high schoolers detailing the different admissions standards for different ethnic groups
19:37:36 MikeLorrey the diversity crowd obviously screamed 'racism' and raised a huge ruckus about it
19:37:57 MikeLorrey Fact is they got lots of membership growth out of it
19:38:14 John_Ventureville how is the group doing now?
19:38:19 John_Ventureville are they going strong?
19:38:26 MikeLorrey the group itself just died out because they didn't continue trying to recruit new members and the old ones graduated
19:38:40 MikeLorrey the scandal was like 8 years ago
19:39:01 mike2050us Interesting. I first heard of Extropianism when I bought a copy of their magazine, which was from the MIT days.
19:39:15 John_Ventureville Does group "die out" happen to "Youth for Christ?"
19:39:16 John_Ventureville lol
19:39:42 MikeLorrey I've found that rational individuals that are attracted to transhumanism
19:39:58 MikeLorrey are less likely to catch the 'dedicated fanatic' virus
19:40:13 MikeLorrey which is so necessary to long term group coherence
19:40:18 John_Ventureville the ole "herding cats" syndrome
19:40:29 mike2050us The Christian Church has been doing business for nearly 2,000 years. They lost a big chunk of their territorya nd market share to the Muslim org, but they held onto impoverished Europe, which turned out to be a good long term bet.

19:40:46 John_Ventureville did it ever!
19:40:56 MikeLorrey One reason I think repackaging transhumanism as a religion might not be a bad idea
19:40:59 John_Ventureville and don't forget to thank the Romans for such a great road system
19:41:26 John_Ventureville I read Max More nearly made ExI a new age group, but he could not stomach the idea
19:41:35 kzzch The Church of Extropian Universism?
19:41:35 mike2050us The Romans were superb engineers and managers.
19:41:54 MikeLorrey considering that a lot of >H ideas grew out of catholic theologian Theilard des Chardins work, there is a lot of potential
19:42:28 mike2050us Hey, a great way to understand why our brains predispose us toward religion is to read Pascal Boyer's book RELIGION EXPLAINED.
19:42:43 MikeLorrey My room mate is founding a quaker-like 'None of the above' spiritual group for libertarians called The Seekers (see seekers.org, I think)
19:43:00 kzzch True, but do you really want a bunch of religious fanatics joining up so you can bolster the ranks?
19:43:28 MikeLorrey Having the right ideas is not the be-all end-all. Popular acceptance is.
19:43:51 John_Ventureville and a hefty advertising budget!
19:43:52 John_Ventureville lol
19:43:59 RJB But you aren't going to get "popular acceptance" unless you get people to change their minds about all the "old ideas".
19:44:30 MikeLorrey That already happens, look at how gays are being more accepted in religious circles these days
19:45:18 MikeLorrey the important thing is to package transhumanist ideas in a way that is seen as merely a rephrasing of conventional pop theology
19:45:27 MikeLorrey this is entirely possible
19:45:43 MikeLorrey for example, the simulation argument is really just a rephrasing of the Genesis myth
19:46:13 John_Ventureville yes
19:46:28 RJB Both of those as well as string theory all suffer from the problem that they probably cannot be proven or disproven.
19:46:36 MikeLorrey and given that the Genesis myth arose out of the Enki/Asheroth mythology that Neal Stephenson has commented on
19:47:32 MikeLorrey its clear that the Genesis myths origins are an example of population of a simulation with multiple binary beings from one unitary being.
19:47:47 mike2050us My time is up, folks. Gotta go. It's been great conversing with you all. See you in the future!
19:48:03 John_Ventureville Mike, thank you so much for being our special guest!
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19:48:24 John_Ventureville and my best wishes to the WTA
19:48:47 mike2050us Thanks, John. Bye!
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19:49:19 John_Ventureville goodnight
19:49:34 John_Ventureville I declare the chat officially over

18:28:26 Lazlo My problem with the whole thing is that I am still unconvinced about the recovery and memory still and would like to see a healthy specimen (not dead first) frozen and recovered

Why? If they were dead first, then isn't the revival even more convincing?

Seriously, just what do you mean by "dead"? Define it, scientifically. The reality is that death is a cultural construct, not a specific physical state. Saying cryonics is less likely to work on someone who is legally dead is like saying it's less likely to work on someone who is legally married.

---BrianW

P.S. to Randolfe: Nobody is naked in dewars. Where did that image come from?

Perhaps I should be clearer. From the moment of cardiac arrest, which is when legal death is customarily declared for terminal patients, there is a cascade of deterioration in the chemistry and structure of the brain in the minutes and hours that follow. The impact that "death" has on the prognosis for a cryonics patient depends on where on this continuum the dying process is intercepted by cryonics.

For someone for whom cryonics life support pocedures are initiated within the early minutes of circulatory arrest-- within the resuscitation window of medicine today --the impact that legal death has on their pognosis is effectively zero. Since they are still resuscitatable by even ordinary medicine, it can be stated with certainty that cryonics would work (or not work) just as well for them whether they were cryopreserved before or after legal death.

Ultimately it's the underlying biology that matters, not legal labels.

---BrianW