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The Future of Life Extension - Cascio


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 12 September 2004 - 12:36 AM


Chat Topic: The Future of Life Extension - Jamais Cascio

Chat Time: Sun. Oct 10 @ 8 PM Eastern Time [Time Zone Help]
Chat Room: http://www.imminst.org/chat (irc.lucifer.com port: 6667 #immortal)

Writer and consultant Jamais Cascio joins ImmInst to ponder questions about how advances in genetic engineering, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology and more are transforming our social and political systems, and what it means that the living forever may well be within our grasps. Specializing in mid-to-long range scenarios of how technology affects our lives, Cascio has worked with Hollywood producers, government officials, and business leaders in his explorations of what the future might have in store for us, and is one of the authors of the Transhuman Space science fiction series.

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About Jamais Cascio
http://www.worldchan...jamais_bio.html

Jamais Cascio, Editor WorldChanging
http://worldchanging.com/

WorldChanging.com works from a simple premise: that the tools, models and ideas for building a better future lie all around us. That plenty of people are working on tools for change, but the fields in which they work remain unconnected. That the motive, means and opportunity for profound positive change are already present. That another world is not just possible, it's here. We only need to put the pieces together.

http://www.worldchan...ves/000106.html

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 01:39 AM

* BJKlein Official Chat Starts
<BJKlein> Welcome: Jamais Cascio
<BJKlein> Topic: The Future of Life Extension
<BJKlein> Writer and consultant Jamais Cascio joins ImmInst to ponder questions about how advances in genetic engineering, artificial intelligence, nanotechnology and more are transforming our social and political systems, and what it means that the living forever may well be within our grasps. Specializing in mid-to-long range scenarios of how technology affects our lives, Cascio has worked with Hollywood producers, government officials, and business leaders in his explorations of what the future might have in store for us, and is one of the authors of the Transhuman Space science fiction series.
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=63&t=4223
<Jamais_Cascio> Thank you, I'm happy to be here.
<BJKlein> Have your ideas been put into movie form yet?
<Jamais_Cascio> Well, none of my *big* ideas have.
<Jamais_Cascio> I worked on "Deep Impact" with others from GBN
<kzzch> Heh, speaking of which, it looks like the X Prize folks are going to be offering prizes in Nanotech and Biotech advances also.
<BJKlein> How did you come to focus on "Transhuman" topics?
<Jamais_Cascio> Without looking further into it, <kzzch>, I think that's a good idea
<Jamais_Cascio> It started awhile back, when I was a writer for Howard Rheingold's "Electric Minds" project
<BJKlein> Are you working mainly with WorldChanging.com now?
<Jamais_Cascio> I wrote a piece called "The Last Human Century," in which I suggested that the twenty-first century would see the emergence -- or discover -- of distinctly non-baseline-human intelligence.
<Jamais_Cascio> Yes, that's my main activity, although I do freelance scenario consulting, as well.
<BJKlein> What occurance leads to such more-than-human intellignece?
<Jamais_Cascio> The Last Human Century spun off into some interesting other wor for me.
<Jamais_Cascio> There are several pathways:
<Jamais_Cascio> Discovery (i.e., SETI finds something)
<BJKlein> SETI seems low prob.
<Jamais_Cascio> Invention (i.e., we figure out how to make a functional machine intelligence)
<BJKlein> Invention seems more likely
<Jamais_Cascio> and Augmentation (i.e., building systems which make human brains smarter)
<BJKlein> yep.. that's my prefered method
<Jamais_Cascio> SETI is hard to guess. The program itself is low prob, but that doesn't mean a follow-on wouldn't find something
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<Jamais_Cascio> invention and augmentation aren't mutually exclusive, of course
<BJKlein> Are you to be at the ACC conf early Nov at Stanford?
<Jamais_Cascio> My more recent "transhuman" stuff has been in the Transhuman Space game series for Steve jackson games
<Jamais_Cascio> I don't know yet. I'd like to be, I'll have to see if the schedule works
<BJKlein> Invention via software programing to AI?
<Jamais_Cascio> Generally speaking, yes.
<BJKlein> seems we should be there already ;0
<Jamais_Cascio> I should hasten to say that I'm not arguing for a particular methodology or pathway
<Jamais_Cascio> I don't think we know enough about how the human mind works to build an analogue quite yet
<BJKlein> right, your a futurist first
<Jamais_Cascio> In addition, given that we *seem* to have just a single data point, it might be hard to recognize a real AI when we get it
<Jamais_Cascio> yes, although I'm not overly fond of the term
<BJKlein> can you explain the single data point idea
<Jamais_Cascio> it has too much of a bad reputation
<BJKlein> ah ok
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<Jamais_Cascio> By "single data point," I mean that we currently believe that Homo sapiens is the only sapient life form on Eart.h
<Jamais_Cascio> (and since we haven't heard from off-earth intelligence, the only one around)
<Jamais_Cascio> It's hard to construct a strong model for how intelligence works when you only have one example
<BJKlein> i see
<Jamais_Cascio> Although I think we may be surprised by some of the cephalopods
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<BJKlein> heh
<Jamais_Cascio> hey Jonl
<jonl> Hi, Jamais!
<Jamais_Cascio> JonL is one of my colleagues at WorldChanging
<BJKlein> others are free to ask Jamais q's
<BJKlein> welcome jonl
<jonl> Wish I could stay longer, but glad to be here!
<BJKlein> jonl, how long do you wish to live?
<kzzch> AI was another area the X PRize folks look to be interested in funding
<BJKlein> same q posed to Jamais_Cascio also
<jonl> Thinking.
<Jamais_Cascio> I want to live until I get bored
<Jamais_Cascio> so, a very long itme
<Jamais_Cascio> time
<jonl> or unhealthy.
<BJKlein> it's not an everyday q ;-) take your time
* Sat rgins
<jonl> Well, I like hanging around, but it might be weird to've outlived everyone you know.
<BJKlein> so you see that there is an afterlife scenario
<Jamais_Cascio> <kzzch>, AI is a different problem from space or even nanotech -- it's not just engineering
<BJKlein> something after death to look forward to?
<jonl> I don't believe that intellectually, myself.
<Jamais_Cascio> do I think there's an afterlife?
<Jamais_Cascio> No
<kzzch> I'm well aware of that
<Jamais_Cascio> <kzzch> I figured you did, I just thouhgt it was worth underlining
* kzzch nods
<BJKlein> right
<BJKlein> ah, good good = no afterlife
<BJKlein> then why say 'live until i get bored'
<Jamais_Cascio> Because I'm no fan of tedium
<BJKlein> oblivion vs tedium
<jonl> The actor George Sanders committed suicide, and his suicide note said "I'm very bored."
<BJKlein> seems an easy choice for me
<Jamais_Cascio> Of course, with sufficiently advanced technology, it should take a very long time to get bored
<ddhewitt> Do you think that the limiting factor to our progress may be a lack of sustainable energy?
<BJKlein> ya!
<BJKlein> exactly, look forward to tech to overcome brain farts
<kzzch> only if we outlive Sol
<BJKlein> don't commite suicide
<jonl> Or cultivate boredom?
<Sat> I'm curious what accessable life extension methods exist presently (besides CR). Are there any?
<Jamais_Cascio> <ddhewitt>, sustainable energy isn't a limit on our progress, but it will cause bumps along the road
<jonl> Actually you don't need technology if you can do the Buddhist thing, which is sort of indescribable.
<Jamais_Cascio> Nothing radical that I'm aware of, <Sat>
* Sat nods
<Jamais_Cascio> Although Tech Review had an interesting article this week on a gene which seems to prduce CR type effects in mice
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<Jamais_Cascio> ://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/scanlon1004.asp?trk=nl
<BJKlein> What are some of your recent most interesting near term predicitons for tech, Jamais?
<Jamais_Cascio> Near term?
<BJKlein> for Immortlist to know
<BJKlein> sorry.. mid to long
<kzzch> It's interesting to note that Newsweek (or time) recently had an article on life extension
<Jamais_Cascio> I think the most interesting near term advance will be the explosion of massively-connected mobile info systems
<BJKlein> black berries
<Jamais_Cascio> the cell phones on steroids, with cameras
<BJKlein> ya
<kzzch> Gargoyles among us? (I think that's what Stephenson called them)
<Jamais_Cascio> th'ats not necessarily for immortalists, but it does tie into reputation systems, which will become very important for long-lived people to work with
<BJKlein> amazon, ebay = reputation systems
<Jamais_Cascio> yeah, that. the term I use on World Changing is "particapatory panopticon"
<Jamais_Cascio> now imagine those reputation systems applied more broadly to social activities
<kzzch> Great, can't wait to have my very own Neilson rating.
<Sat> interesting. David is working on a reputation system inplementation for the CoV. So far it seems to be working well.
<BJKlein> going to a club, restaurant
<jonl> Cory Doctorow expressed this vision well in Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom.
<jonl> whuffie.
<Jamais_Cascio> Medium to long term... the biggest question is going to be how we deal with energy, ecology, sustainability
<Jamais_Cascio> yeah, D&O was great, although I think "whuffie" is a dumb term
<jonl> agree
<BJKlein> oil crisis?
<Jamais_Cascio> Oil, climate.
<jonl> Jamais, don't you think eco-catastrophe is rather inevitable?
<Sat> It's good to hear you say that. So many Transhumanists seem to jump ahead to a golden age of nanotech, singularities, etc.
<Jamais_Cascio> Exactly, <Sat>.
<Jamais_Cascio> It's eschatology for the P2P set
* Sat nods
<Jamais_Cascio> JonL, depends on what you mean by "catastrophe"
<BJKlein> do you subscribe to Vinge's Singualrity concept?
<Sat> techno-rapture for the neochristian.
* Sat chuckles
<jonl> I think the most likely catastrophe is climate change.
<kzzch> Anyone think the oddness of the five hurricanes hitting florida within such a small time frame might be indicative of a more serious problem?
<Jamais_Cascio> I think an intelligence singualrity is possible, but it owuldn't be easy
<jonl> Well, it is.
<Jamais_Cascio> It might be. 5 is definitely weird, but not outside historical numbers.
<Jamais_Cascio> If we get 4 or 5 next year -- or more -- then we can start making strong claims
<Sat> Hard to say kzzch. the flip side is that chaos it is a bit exciting.
<jonl> Five with that proximity, though, has no precedent, I think.
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<kzzch> Yes, jonl , the proximity is what I thought most peculiar
<Jamais_Cascio> Florida has seen 5 before, but not 5 of that strength
<Jamais_Cascio> IIRC
<kzzch> I tried to imagine what might have happened if they were close enough together to perhaps conglomerate into one massive weather system
<Jamais_Cascio> The most interesting question about a singularity is where it happens
<kzzch> Something like Sterling's Heavy Weather.
<BJKlein> why will an 'intellignece singularity' be difficult?
<Jamais_Cascio> would an AI emergence in the US behave like one in China
<Jamais_Cascio> well, for a couple of reasons
<Sat> Norman Spinrad's Greenhouse Summer comes to mind.
<Jamais_Cascio> one is ttha we don't know enough about the natuer of the mind to know if the kind of intelligence excursion (to use Stross' term) is actually possible
<Jamais_Cascio> another is that software is, currently, extremely fragiel
<Jamais_Cascio> fragile
<BJKlein> right..
<jonl> (I should note that I have powerful disagreement with the AI concept.)
<Jamais_Cascio> and it's really hard to say what happens if you get a small bug in that kind of code
<BJKlein> but you say it is possible in principle
<Jamais_Cascio> I do
<Jamais_Cascio> But I don't put a timeline on it
<BJKlein> just a matter of time
<BJKlein> i see
<Jamais_Cascio> yes
<jonl> (Sorry to say I must go, but will capture the conversation, thanks!)
<BJKlein> seya jonl
<Jamais_Cascio> thanks for popping by, Jon
<jonl> Sorry I couldn't stay longer!
* Sat imagines a new born emergent AI proclaiming, "I'm alive!" only to be extinguished by the 'blue screen of death.'
<Jamais_Cascio> that's Jaron Lanier's argument, exactly
<BJKlein> no prob, join us most sunday's pm
<Jamais_Cascio> he imagines a future of barely-sentient AIs begging to be rebooted
<Sat> heh. he's a trippy frood
<Jamais_Cascio> no kidding
<BJKlein> perhaps we attach a human fact to AI to much
<Jamais_Cascio> great loft apartment in tribeca, tho
<BJKlein> fact=face
<Jamais_Cascio> we do
<Jamais_Cascio> that's why I think we'll probably invent a real AI before we realize we've done so
<Sat> We tend to anthropomorphize frikkin everything.
<Jamais_Cascio> that is, it probably won't be intnetional
<Jamais_Cascio> yes we do
<Jamais_Cascio> we are still very much trapped by our monkey minds
* BJKlein nods
<Jamais_Cascio> seeing patterns in clouds
* Sat does the robot.
<Jamais_Cascio> (or matching Dark Side of the Moon and Wizard of Oz)
<BJKlein> i see you know evolutionary psychology
<Jamais_Cascio> thinking no more than a season in advance
<Jamais_Cascio> I did evolutionary anthropology as one of my undergrad degrees
<BJKlein> seems brain computer interface will help us to overcome monkeymind
<kzzch> thinking too far ahead can be depressing if you do it wrong :)
<Jamais_Cascio> why?
<Jamais_Cascio> (why to BJK)
<Sat> well that's more of attaching meaning to patterns we recognize. of course the meaning is derived from our primite platform, but the maps we use filter things a lot.
<BJKlein> biobrain + silicon brain = better
<Jamais_Cascio> what if you get the worst of both worlds?
<Sat> I tend to think that even with some sort of transcendant tech, we will still run from our tooth and claw kernel.
<BJKlein> in that bio can learn quicker to overcome evolutionary artifacts
<Jamais_Cascio> one of the exciting things about this next century is that we're on the cusp of discovering some really important things about human nature
<Sat> Faster, smarter... even more predatory?
<BJKlein> all depends on the quality of the integration
<BJKlein> and what your feeding the biobrain
<Jamais_Cascio> how we get from brain to mind
<Jamais_Cascio> what it means to live for longer than a "natural" lifespan
* BJKlein claps
<Jamais_Cascio> I think a positive augmentation is certainly possible -- I'd love to see it -- but it's not inevitable
<Sat> ever since age 5 I've wanted to do that. death sucks.
<Jamais_Cascio> One phrase will explain:
<Jamais_Cascio> Windows for Cognitive Implants
* Sat turns white
<BJKlein> do you think cryonics for yourself as a backup to oblivion, jamais?
<Jamais_Cascio> I'm not a fan of "freeze your head futurism"
* BJKlein shakes his unfrozen head
<Jamais_Cascio> I want to be here for what comes
<Sat> I have argued for the last couple years that opensource is the only way to go when it comes to my mind and upgrades.
<BJKlein> yeah, but get hit by a truck, and you'll = oblivion
<BJKlein> cryonics = second chance
<Jamais_Cascio> I don't think that cryonics has proven itself to be anything much more than simple hope
<Jamais_Cascio> at least with humans
<kzzch> Heh, I'm hoping to use the Open Source Cognitive Implants
<Jamais_Cascio> yep
<Sat> I'd HATE to be locked into forced upgrades and have Redmond have some EULA on my mind.
* Sat shudders
<Sat> Then I'd be the one begging to be rebooted.
<BJKlein> so your objection to cryonics is more that it's not preserving the brain?
<Jamais_Cascio> One big issue with cog implants, gargoyle setups, camglasses, etc -- the RIAA/MPAA won't be happy with you having a perfect record of what you see
<Jamais_Cascio> Objections to cryonics: not preserving the brain (big one); no real plan other than hope; dependent upon continued viability of cryo company; depends on good will of folks in eht future
<Jamais_Cascio> not free
<Jamais_Cascio> that is, if it was completely free to ahve my head frozen, sure, why not?
<BJKlein> heh
<Sat> BJKlien, obviously we want to avoid oblivion... but the flip side is that once one does not exist he won't care. Know what I mean?
<EmilG> Well, you know Alcor does "vitrification" now, not "freezing"
<BJKlein> how much is your life worth?
<Jamais_Cascio> I don't think it's a simple financial argument
<BJKlein> Sat, yeah.. i know what you mean.. but that seems all the more reason to avoid it.
* Sat nods
<Jamais_Cascio> If there was more real science to it, I'd be more likely to consider it
<BJKlein> there has been recent advancements = vitrification
<Sat> I've been considering it for 5 years now.
<Jamais_Cascio> fortunately, it's not an issue at the moment
<BJKlein> also, see the following link: http://www.cryoletter.org

<Jamais_Cascio> I'd much rather focus attention on technologies to improve healthy longevity
<BJKlein> right.. but, should we also think about 'why' live longer?
<Jamais_Cascio> Yes. That will be the #1 question asked of any plausible life extension tech.
<BJKlein> perhaps if we have a better reason for LE then we'd do better to solve it
<Jamais_Cascio> Well, I think that the baby boom generation will take care of that.
<kzzch> I think therefore I am, I am therefore I should continue to be?
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<Jamais_Cascio> It's a whole generation of Roy Battys ("I want more life, f---r!")
<Sat> the why is subjective. What we need is the right to extend or extinguish one's own life.
<BJKlein> it's certainly a strong force.. but 'baby boomers' are comprised of individual people with ideas about life/death
<Jamais_Cascio> Yes, but many of them seem to have a strong attraction to perserving their youth
<BJKlein> easliy explained with EP
* Sat nods
<ddhewitt> At least the appearance of youth.
<kzzch> At least the superficial outward appearance of it
<Jamais_Cascio> I tend to think we'll get real life extension out of incremental advances than out of magic bullet treatments
<BJKlein> youth = sex
<Sat> Life extension is very old. I have been reading about the Taoists. They where big into LE.
<BJKlein> sex = death
<kzzch> Don't forget the Epic of Gilgamesh
<Jamais_Cascio> You're mixing your slogans...
<BJKlein> heh
<Jamais_Cascio> Gilgamesh is a fascinating read. I strongly encourage eeryone to pick it up.
<BJKlein> there interchangable
<Tywick> where do you get sex = death from?
<Tywick> biblical ref?
<kzzch> Erm, I read it already, it's extremely short
<kzzch> Not much of an epic, to be honest :/
<BJKlein> sex = children.. let the next generation deal with it = death
<Jamais_Cascio> I figured you had, that's why you mentioned it, I was encouraging others
<Sat> I imagine myself being 90+ years old and crying out "I am too young to die!" (on the good days)
<Jamais_Cascio> Aw, give 'em a break, not like they had many models to work from on the "epic fantasy" front
<BJKlein> many see children as their immortality
<Jamais_Cascio> Yep
<ddhewitt> Death evolved with sex as well.
<Eliezer> How many hits does WorldChanging get?
<Jamais_Cascio> Which always seemed kind of pathological to me
<Jamais_Cascio> We have roughly 15,000 daily readers
<kzzch> Heh, I found some interesting articles on those ancient civilizations, sumerians etc...
<Jamais_Cascio> Has anyone here looked at the Transhuman Space books, btw?
<BJKlein> ImmInst has 700 - 800 unique visitors per day
<Sat> actualy sex and death seems to come from the myth of the Garden of Eden. Through knowledge ( a euphemism for fucking) adam and eve introduce death to the world. It was all Satan's fault... he appeared as a phallic snake, got eve all turned on and the rest is history.
* Sat chuckles
<Eliezer> phallic? the Garden myth predates Freud and his ridiculous notions
* Sat grins.
<Sat> I was just being silly. really.
<BJKlein> http://www.sjgames.c...rps/transhuman/ = TransHuman Space
<Jamais_Cascio> right
<BJKlein> spinoff to games
<Jamais_Cascio> I wrote two of the books in the series, Broken Dreams (about the future of the developing world) and Toxic Memes (about the future of movements and conspiracies and cults and culture)
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<BJKlein> "Transhuman space won the Grog d'Or for the best roleplaying game, game line, or RPG setting of 2002."
<Eliezer> Mm. You do realize that all this has essentially zero probability of actually happening, right?
<Jamais_Cascio> they're game setting books, so they give a lot of information about places and such, not stories
<Jamais_Cascio> Whic, Eliezer?
<Jamais_Cascio> Which?
<BJKlein> http://www.sjgames.c...n/brokendreams/
<Eliezer> Oh, essentially anything you tried to extrapolate beyond 2040.
* Sat notes the singular point at the end of Eli's last statement.
<Jamais_Cascio> Well, for the game, the setting was 100 years out, and I didn't come up with the timeline, so that's kind of moot.
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<Jamais_Cascio> In general, though, there is a real difficulty with doign foresight work for anything longer than 25 years or so
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<Jamais_Cascio> too many variables
<dj_iz> kzzzzzzzzzcccch!!
<Jamais_Cascio> at the same time, it's useful to think about broader trends
<Eliezer> Glad to see you appreciate the "too many variables" part. A lot of futurists don't realize that p(A&B) < p(A).
<Jamais_Cascio> and thinking longer term out tends to bring clarity to shorter term insights
<Jonatan21> Jamais do you have the same number than Aubrey that we will live 5000 years, we will still die from cars crash and wars ?
<Jamais_Cascio> that's one of the reasons I etnd to dislike the term "futurist"
<BJKlein> Jamais_Cascio, have you considered the Heat Death problem, yet?
<Eliezer> Well, so do I, actually. Because of the passivist, storytelling attitude it implies... if you're not a futurist, then who are you?
<Jamais_Cascio> Wars? Probably. Car crashes? Only if the brain is smashed. And that's why it's good to do backups.
<Jamais_Cascio> What do you mean by "heat death" in this context, BJK?
<BJKlein> space .. expansion
<Jamais_Cascio> I refer to myself as a "freelance worldbuilder"
<BJKlein> billions of years.. as a possible problem for immortalists
<Eliezer> Heh.
<Jonatan21> how do to backup if we dont believe in uploading
<Jamais_Cascio> I don't give it a lot of thought, because that's a lot of tmei to think about solutions
<Sat> Put one foot behind the other Jonathan21.
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<BJKlein> right, only bring it up because if there are no multiworlds to jump to.. it could be a big prob for immortalists
<Eliezer> "Freelance worldbuilder." That's much the same as my own job description, except that I'm not freelance and I work in a higher-order reality than fiction.
<Jonatan21> I dont think if we build 2 brain like me, it will be the samething
<Jamais_Cascio> a non-upload backup could be a (handwaving technology warning) snapshot map of the brain (quantum tomography or whatnot) coupled with a way of doing nanoscale manipulation
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<Jamais_Cascio> Most of the scenaric worlds I work on are for business/gov't/non-profits to think about their choices over the next decade or so
<Eliezer> Cascio, I noted your comments on your site about the "Singularity". Vinge's original Singularity had nothing to do with that. Vinge's original "Singularity" was the breakdown in our model of the future when we try to extrapolate past the point where our model predicts the rise of smarter-than-human intelligence. The "singularity" was by analogy to the breakdown in our model of physics.
<Jamais_Cascio> I tend to call it foresight work
<Eliezer> Not that the center of a black hole tears us apart, or goes to infinity, but that contemporary science didn't understand it - that was all.
<Jamais_Cascio> Okay.
<Sat> The event horizon would have been more accurate. Singularity sounds sexier though.
<Eliezer> No, Sat. The event horizon doesn't break the equations. It's the singularity that physics had trouble with.
<Jamais_Cascio> It was metaphorical
<Sat> an analogy.
<Eliezer> Well, sure. But people lose sight of what it was a metaphor *for*. Nothing to do with accelerating technology, or the *generic* difficulty of predicting the future.
<Eliezer> It was a metaphor for the *specific* problem of predicting a future that contained minds smarter than the minds attempting to do the prediction.
<Jamais_Cascio> that's so. but the term has taken on a broader meaning in current discussions, less specific but arguably more useful
<Eliezer> Heh. Then what do you call the original Singularity?
<Jamais_Cascio> (sorry my cat has decided to stand in front of the monitor)
<BJKlein> heh, do you have any sig-others other than cat?
<Eliezer> As a practitioner of the Way of rationality, I would also say that less specific is less useful. The narrower the category, the more you can say about it. The sharpest words cut deepest.
<Jamais_Cascio> I am married (just celebrated 18 years of being together, married 13 years ago). two cats. four Macs. no kids.
* Sat applauds
<Jamais_Cascio> for the cats, Macs or no kids?
<Sat> An those are all excellent reasons to seek longevity
<BJKlein> your wife wishes to have no children = immortalist
<Jamais_Cascio> I have to say, I do hope we get longevity for pets
* BJKlein married 3yrs, 1 cat, 2 dogs, no kids
<Jamais_Cascio> You'd think so, but she and I have discussed it, and she's not all that keen on living a radically longer life
<Sat> The relationships is what I am thinking of.
<BJKlein> interesting.. rational against longer life?
<Jamais_Cascio> which is going to make a very sad moment some decades from now
* Sat - separated 11 months ago. 1 kid. no pets. a great girlfriend.
<BJKlein> my wife has agreed to sign for cryonics with me
<Eliezer> Yes. The first thing to discuss with any potential girlfriend; immortals should not fall in love with mortals.
<Eliezer> (Also a good way to check for minimum intelligence.)
<Jamais_Cascio> she sees life as a process, a narrative, something with its own trajectory
<ddhewitt> I don't know if having children excludes one from being an immortalist. I am trying to have it both ways.
<BJKlein> ah, yeah.. a part of the natural cycle of life
<Jamais_Cascio> I think you're making an incorrect assumption by equating a desire to live forever with intelligence
<Sat> Having a son makes me want immortality even more. especially for him.
<Jamais_Cascio> For me, a desire to live a very long time (I shy away from "immortality" because it has cultural implications that I don't like)
<Jamais_Cascio> the desire comes from a desire to see much of the world, much of the universe
* BJKlein Official Chat Ends (please feel free to stay as long as you wish Jamais)
<Eliezer> Well, wanting to be immortal is sort of like being an atheist. It doesn't guarantee that you're smart. However, failing the test does imply an upper bound on your combination of intelligence, rationality, and knowledge.
<Jamais_Cascio> 80, 100, 140 years isn't enough
<BJKlein> quite an enjoyable discussion
<Jamais_Cascio> thank you for the invitation
<Sat> extreme longevity, immortality, would be tough in many respects. I imagine the longer I live the more loss of those close to me I will experience.
<Jamais_Cascio> And, sadly, my non-immortal wife is summoning me for our dinner date.
<Eliezer> Don't give up on her just yet, y'know.
<BJKlein> ya, my wife has come quite a ways to sign up for cryonics
<Eliezer> I like to say that I want to live one more week, therefore I want to live forever, proof by induction.
<Jamais_Cascio> We'll see how she feels when it shifts from theoretical to actual
<BJKlein> my dad also
*** Joins: John_Ventureville (~John_Vent@24-117-201-237.cpe.cableone.net)
<BJKlein> heh, it's actual now, is it not?
<BJKlein> i'm immortal until i die
<Eliezer> She may talk a good line about natural cycles but I don't think that she'll actually go ahead and slash her wrists at any point.
* Sat raises an eyebrow
<Jamais_Cascio> Thank you for the invitation and the soapbox, folks
<Sat> thank you.
<BJKlein> come back anytime
<Jamais_Cascio> This is a little off my regular topics at WorldChanging (http://www.worldchanging.com)
<Eliezer> Oh, yeah. That reminds me.
<EmilG> Eliezer: There may come a point where you actually don't want to live another week.
<Jamais_Cascio> but I do write quite a bit about foresight and emerging technologies adn what they mean for us culturally and socially
<Sat> BJKlein: I'd say it's far from actual, however, there appears to be a btter chance of it now then there has been in the past.
<Eliezer> Worldchanging folks consider visiting http://singinst.org/ ?
<Eliezer> The Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence could always use more publicity.
<Jamais_Cascio> I'll make a point of checking it out this evening
<Eliezer> Thanks.
<Jamais_Cascio> Good night, all. Thank you again!
* BJKlein nods to SingInst as a worthwile investment of mind space
* Eliezer says to EmilG: "It's possible. I'm just pointing out that the decision to live forever doesn't have to be explicit."
* Eliezer says to EmilG: "It can be as simple as procrastinating."
<EmilG> And that's intelligence?
<Eliezer> No, I didn't say that. See above.
<BJKlein> self preservation is a smart thing, no?
* Sat toys with the idea of procratination as a path to immortality.
<Sat> I think I'dd put off death until later.
<Sat> works for me.
<BJKlein> especially if all (rational-scientific) indications point toward no life = bad
<John_Ventureville> I'm a very talented procrastinator, so perhaps I can apply my natural ability to avoiding death!
<Sat> no life = NULL.
<BJKlein> good for you, John :)
<Sat> that was my point earlier. it only seems bad to the living.
<BJKlein> anyone see "What the #1?" yet
<BJKlein> what the bleep
<EmilG> As I get older (I'm 26, you young whippersnappers), I realize that Emil: The Legend isn't all that important, and I find it hard to care beyond a certain level of extrapolation.
<John_Ventureville> I knew my "shortcoming" would eventually come in handy for more than just avoiding unpleasant tasks
<John_Ventureville> how did the chat go? I had lost track of time and missed it.
<kzzch> shit, if being too lazy to die is all it takes, i'll be the first immortal
<Sat> At 36 I've realized that mortality is damn real, and that Sat is just a temporary pattern.
<Sat> That sucks.
<Eliezer> "Too lazy to die" is such a wonderful slogan. ImmInst should print that as a bumpersticker.
<BJKlein> Jamais is not a futurist (dosent' wish to be called such)
<John_Ventureville> Sat, I'm a year old than you
<John_Ventureville> and know the feeling
<kzzch> erm, i'm going to file a copyright on that first thing in the morning
<BJKlein> heh "Too Smart To Die"
<John_Ventureville> "we are all just dust in the wind"
<kzzch> they can license it if they want :p
<BJKlein> "Too Intelligent To Die"
<Eliezer> You could have a whole line of them, BJKlein.
<Sat> I'll be 37 in 22 days. in 31 days it will be a year since I broke up with my wife. Time seems to be accelerating from my subjective veiwpoint.
<BJKlein> loss leader
<Eliezer> "Too Sexy To Die imminst.org"
<kzzch> lol
<BJKlein> create one film worth a million bumperstickers
<kzzch> You've got a winner with that one, Eli
<EmilG> Why should I care if I live billions of years to satisfy some pulp science-fiction masturbation fantasy? Why. How does lack of said caring imply I'm not as intelligent as I should be?
* Sat sings "I'm too sexy for this death! Too sexy for this death!"
<Eliezer> Emil, you're missing the point. All you need to care about is next week.
<John_Ventureville> "old immortalists don't die, they simply regroup after the Singularity!"
<kzzch> heh, line on a futurists headstone: "See you all at the Omega Point!"
<John_Ventureville> Emil, why the negative attitude toward indefinite lifespan?
<Eliezer> Yeah, it'd be really funny if they weren't permanently dead.
<Eliezer> On a cryonics capsule, it'd be funny.
<John_Ventureville> Sat, did you want to break up with your wife?
<John_Ventureville> or was it her idea?
* Sat shrugs
<kzzch> Am I misunderstanding the idea of the Omega Point?
<Sat> I pushed it to the break.
<John_Ventureville> and you regret that now?
<Eliezer> the problem, kzzch, is that the Omega Point is an *idea*. I wouldn't go relying on it.
<Eliezer> the more so, as it seems a rather silly idea
<kzzch> I'm not, but uh, it's what made the joke :p
<Sat> In retrospect it was a good thing to do. I'm still adjusting, but meeting my gf has changed my outlook on things a bit.
<BJKlein> John
<Sat> It's also made me feel older. she's 13 years younger then I am.
<Sat> Young women... now there's a reason to keep on ticking.
<Eliezer> <BJKlein> create one film worth a million bumperstickers
<Eliezer> I'm not sure it will be
<Eliezer> a million bumperstickers would probably be better
<BJKlein> depends
<Eliezer> you should go with the bumperstickers too
<BJKlein> on the quality of the film
<Eliezer> do both
<Sat> I'll rephrase BJ's sex = death from earlier: sex or death.
<BJKlein> with $ would
<BJKlein> but think film = better investement of time/$
<BJKlein> film = higher quality information flow
<Eliezer> BJKlein, I think Cafe Press does bumperstickers
<BJKlein> educational
<BJKlein> hmm, last time i checked = no
<BJKlein> but that was 2yrs ago
<BJKlein> t shirts = fine
<BJKlein> http://imminst.org/amember/apparel.php
<Sat> Oh also on the sex and death thing: the ancient Taoist's equated sex and death as well. They thought that having orgasms, well ejaculating actually, dcreased the life force.
<Eliezer> BJ, they've got bumper stickers
<BJKlein> well then, i'll invest 3 hrs in it
*** Joins: localroger (~Roger@adsl-222-12-67.msy.bellsouth.net)
<BJKlein> pick the best 5 slogans
<BJKlein> "Too Young To Die"
<John_Ventureville> Sat, will it sounds like you have both gained and lost from your actions
<BJKlein> "Too Intelligent To Die"
<Eliezer> "TOO LAZY TO DIE", "TOO SMART TO DIE", "TOO SEXY TO DIE", "STOP THE SLAUGHTER", "IMMORTALITY IN OUR LIFETIMES"
<BJKlein> http://www.imminst.o...es/imm_bump.gif
<BJKlein> current imminst bumper
<Sat> John_Ventureville, the worst thing about it all is having my good memories of from the relationship being fubared by the whole process.
<John_Ventureville> Eliezer, I like "immortality in our lifetimes" and "too sexy to die"
<localroger> "Immortality in our lifetimes" has a nicely recursive ring to it
<John_Ventureville> Sat, memories of the consequences of our actions can be a very painful thing
<Sat> It blows having those snapshots of joy and personal transcendance obscured by what came later.
<Sat> And, that is another thing 'immortals' will have to deal with.
<Sat> It ain't gonna be all cake and icecream.
<John_Ventureville> Sat, could you go back to your ex-wife and patch things up?
<Sat> Just ask Dracula
<BJKlein> ImmInst slogan: 'For Infinite Lifespans'

#3 John Doe

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Posted 11 October 2004 - 05:12 AM

* Sat sings "I'm too sexy for this death! Too sexy for this death!"


ROFL




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