Spanish Version: http://www.imminst.o...=ST&f=82&t=1224
Santiago Ochoa, co-founder of the Venezuelan Transhumanist Association (VTA: http://www.transhumanismo.org), graciously granted ImmInst.org a special interview. Ochoa’s interview may help the reader better understand the transition that takes place when going from a theist belief system to a fully transhumanist outlook.
Santiago Ochoa
Venezuelan Transhumanist Association
ImmInst: What aspects in your life prompted you to start thinking about the prospect of immortality and transhumanism? Do you feel this was mostly external forces or something within your makeup that attracted you to this idea?
Ochoa: Until I was about 22 years old I was a Catholic who went to church every Sunday and prayed every night, but I felt there was something wrong with the idea of believing that my religion was the right one and that all other beliefs were wrong. That didn’t make sense. It sounded too ethnocentric and discriminating.
In 1990 I started studying Psychology at Carleton University in Ottawa and took courses in Cognitive Psychology, Biopsychology, Physical Anthropology, Computer Science, Formal Logic, Psychology of Religion and other social sciences. This made me realize that science provided a better explanation than all those different and contradicting religions. The answer, to me, was that all religions were created by the human mind’s desire to explain what it didn’t understand.
At the beginning, I became agnostic and finally, as I read more, I started having “faith” in the non-existence of god. I say “faith” because there is no way to really know that god doesn’t exist, I just believe so. It’s also faith in the possibility of understanding and explaining everything without the need of a superior being. We can do it and that makes me feel good.
As I studied Cognitive Psychology I realized there was a big similarity between the way the brain and computers worked, so I started to become interested in AI. Once I got my BA, I wanted to get a graduate degree in Cognitive Psychology applied to the development of AI. Unfortunately I had to move to Austria and the only University in English was Webster University from St. Louis, Missouri, which had a branch in Vienna. They didn’t have a degree in Psychology so I decided to get a BA in Computer Studies, which was the only field related to AI.
Once I graduated, I started working as Systems Manager at Webster University, then moved to Caracas and got a similar job at a Mercedes-Benz dealer. Even though I wasn't working in a Cognitive Psychology or AI related field, I continued reading on the subject and looking for information through Internet. I read “Mind Children” and “Beyond Humanity” in 1998 and realized that this was exactly the way I felt about the future, so I started looking for related subjects in Internet and found the Singularity Institute, Extropy Institute, the WTA and finally, the Immortality Institute.
So, you could say that the internal force which made me think about physical immortality and transhumanism came from my desire to look for a more logical explanation on life than what I was taught as a kid, but studying Psychology and browsing Internet was the external force which made it possible.
It is interesting to note, though, that my brother and three sisters are still Catholic and believe in god, while two cousins, who lived in Caracas all their lives but studied pure Physics and Computer Science, are more interested in Transhumanism and consider themselves non-religious. It seems that studying science had a lot to do with it.
ImmInst: Some people who consider themselves transhumanist and immortalist, also have a belief in religion. This may have something to do with people hedging their bets, actively believing in God and religion just in case something bad happens and then passively waiting to see what life extension technologies develop in the future.
When you personally started to change your thinking about religion, was there ever a point where you experienced a gripping fear of death or was the transition more subtle. Also, what practical steps do you take to extend and preserve your life? And does your family participate?
Ochoa: At the beginning, when I was agnostic, I always thought, in the back of my mind, that there was a god watching and, once in a while, even asked him for favors and forgiveness. This is what Catholics call fear of god. But, during this time I wasn’t so afraid of dying. I never thought about it, but as I got older and turned into atheism, I started to fear flying and became more careful about my health. I didn’t relate this to my religious belief since most people become more concerned about death as they get older, but now that you mention it, it could be that as people mature, they start fearing that maybe there is nothing after death. So, even though they still believe in god and consider themselves religious, in the back of their mind they are not so sure.
I want to clarify, though, that I am afraid of dying because I appreciate more being alive and want to know how the future will be, but I wouldn’t mind dying for a good cause, like defending my family or saving someone else from dying.
With respect to what I’m doing to preserve or extend my life: Well, I don’t drink any alcohol at all (maybe a little would be healthier but I don’t like it), I don’t smoke and try to stay away from those who do, I try not to eat meat more than once a week, I exercise a little (not as much as when I was younger, though. I don’t have much time now), maintain a healthy weight, I take 500grms of vitamin C everyday (used to take multivitamins but they are now too expensive here in Venezuela), I always wear my seatbelt and don’t take unnecessary risks.
By the way, my brother and sisters do the same, even though they are not immortalists. Maybe they are, but just don’t want to admit it yet. My three sisters are vegetarians because they defend animal rights and believe it’s healthier, even though they admit a little meat once a week would be even healthier. My wife tries to be healthy but she is not so worried about it. She drinks on weekends, never wears her seatbelt and she’s not so worried about dying, but she doesn’t smoke (I wouldn’t be with her if she did) and tries to eat healthy.
ImmInst: Could you extrapolate your view of how you see the transition from human to transhuman.. a timeline, and some of the technical aspects of it. For instance, do you think we'll need functional nanotech or simply real artificial intelligence before we'll have the tools to take the next step?
Also, what's your interpretation of the potential coming Singularity? Do you see it happening over decades, or within a short, say a few weeks, timeframe once we reach smarter-than-human technology?
Ochoa: In a way we are already transhumans since we use lots of technologies to improve our health and extend our abilities. This process has been exponential and is why we started to notice it so suddenly in the last few decades. The improvements in the last five years, and the projections for the next ten years, are so great compared to previous generations that we now realize that there is a great possibility to become posthumans in just a few decades.
I think nanotech and genetic engineering will be combined in the next 10 years so as to heal our biological bodies, cure cancer, fix our immune system, repair genetic and degenerative diseases, and other similar biological repairs. Artificial intelligence and robotics, at the same time, will be used to improve the abilities of the physically impaired but won’t be used to enhance our bodies yet, maybe just to improve our interfacing with machines through wireless neural connections. We will see some robots used for basic security and domestic chores.
In about 10 to 20 years from now, we will start to see useful enhancements and some real cyborgs. They will use similar technologies as those mentioned above, but improved in such a way that it won’t be considered a risk to try them out, even on healthy bodies. Nanotech and bioengineering will improve our immune system so as to prevent disease, not just cure them. We will monitor our cells to prevent cancer or any degenerative disease and even to repair the damage caused by aging. I believe in 20 years we will become biologically immortal as long as we are not killed by an accident. Artificial intelligence and robotics will improve our vision and hearing; we will be able to have implanted brain enhancers for better memory, mathematical abilities, improved interfacing for downloading information directly into the brain and learning new skills.
Replacing parts of our bodies with robotic enhancements will be possible, but I think few would want to get rid of a biological part unless you lose it in an accident. You never know, maybe some people will do it once they see how well it works with those who have them. Robots will be almost as skilled as humans with respect to performing jobs that don’t require very advanced cognitive talents.
In 20 to 30 years is when we will see artificial brains with similar and even superior abilities than biological brains. Enhancements will be so good that very few will think twice to use them. We will see no need to improve or fix our biological remains anymore because we will be able to replace them with better artificial parts. Nanotech will be oriented towards improving the quality of those enhancements and for reviving people in cryonic suspension. Wireless communication between our brains and the web will be so fast and with immediate access to all information that we will feel as though it’s part of our own brain. No need to speak, read or write in the traditional way since direct wireless communication between brains will be more efficient.
This is when the singularity will occur. Once we reach this point, I estimate that AI will double every six months or less, but we won’t mind since our enhanced brains will keep pace with artificial brains. Robots will become smarter than original/biological humans but most enhanced humans will be as smart as, or even smarter than, robots. AI and Robotics research won’t be as concerned with improving robots as with enhancing Transhumans, and even if they are, they won’t beat enhancement technology, maybe just match it.
Between 30 to 40 years from now we won’t notice the difference between a robot and a Transhuman, which we will no longer be, but will have reached the Posthuman stage by having lost all our biological remains.
ImmInst: Could you tell us about your current activities and involvement in the Venezuelan Transhumanist Association (VTA: http://www.transhumanismo.org)? What prompted you to start the organization and what do you see for the future?
Ochoa: At the moment the VTA is concerned with spreading the word and trying to get Venezuelans to know what Transhumanism is all about. We are having monthly meetings where we invite potential members or anybody who has shown an interest for the subject or technologies involved. We lend each other books so that we can read and discuss them at the next meeting. We are creating a charter and constitution so as to become an official WTA chapter. We also look for ways to improve our web page and make it easier for Venezuelans to get informed.
Every chance I get, I introduce the subject, in a very subtle way, to my friends, co-workers and any person I meet. I talk about the technology and how things are advancing so fast, and so on. If they show interest, I start talking about more profound topics as becoming cyborgs, immortals and posthumans, and, finally, if they are still interested, I ask them if they want to join the VTA. I explain that Transhumanism is just the possibility of using all these technologies to improve the human condition and that the VTA is just a discussion group where we can learn how to apply these technologies to improve life in Venezuela and Latin America.
When I started reading through Internet about the different transhumanist views (singularitarians, extropians, immortalists) and realized that they all considered themselves transhumanists, I decided to put more emphasis in the WTA, especially when I saw that they were creating chapters in different cities and countries around the world. If I was going to bring Transhumanism to Venezuela, it had to include all views, and what better way than to create a WTA chapter.
I joined the WTA, created a draft of my web page and contacted the WTA Secretary, James Hughes, sent him the page and told him that I was interested in creating a Venezuelan chapter. He told me that there was another Venezuelan, José Luis Cordeiro, who was an active transhumanist and was also interested in creating a Venezuelan chapter. Suddenly, a third Venezuelan, Amílcar Ortega, contacted us through Internet and said he was also interested. In February we decided to have our first meeting and invited a few friends but only four of us came. The second meeting, in March, we were already 14 members and ten could come.
I hope that by getting Venezuelans to know about the possibilities of a posthuman future, we will be better prepared when the time comes and, as the world becomes more globalized, we might even be able to contribute in the development of the technologies and knowledge required. By getting developing countries involved, we are making sure the technology is used to improve living conditions all around the world, eliminating poverty and bringing equal opportunity to everybody, not just to a few.
Santiago Ochoa
Co-Founder, Venezuelan Transhumanist Association
VTA: http://www.transhumanismo.org
