Keith Henson - June 22 Fireside Chat

Keith Henson - Fireside Chat
Sun. June 22nd, 2003 @ 8pm Eastern US Time
Location: http://www.imminst.org/chat2

On June 22nd 2003 at 8:00 PM (Eastern) the Immortality Institute will hold a moderated live chat with Keith Henson to discuss his essay: Sex, Drugs, and Cults. An evolutionary psychology perspective on why and how cult memes get a drug-like hold on people, and what might be done to mitigate the effects.

Members are encouraged to read Keith's essay before asking questions:
http://human-nature....s/02/cults.html

About Keith:
Homepage: http://www.operatingthetan.com/
Writings: http://www.operating...m/writings.html
Email: hkhenson@rogers.com
Phone: 519-770-0646 hm and 416-529-2789 cell

H. Keith Henson was one of the founders, and first president of the L5 Society, now merged with the National Space Society. During L5’s successful fight against the Moon Treaty he testified before Congress. In the late 70s, he wrote papers on vapor phase fabrication and space radiators with Eric Drexler. (They hold patents on these topics jointly.) Nanotech got him into cryonics where (in the early 90s) he learned how to do cardiac surgery on cryonics patients--some with HIV. His interest in human rights, particularly free speech, led him into a battle on the Internet with a certain vicious and litigious cult. As a result he is now a political refugee in Canada.



Keith's Current Focus:
Privation as a particular memetic replication control mechanism (Draft)

In "Sex, Drugs and Cults" published in Human Nature Review, I examined
two evolved human psychological mechanisms: drug-like attention rewards
and capture-bonding, better known as the Stockholm Syndrome.

Here I propose a third and somewhat more speculative psychological
mechanism, one that indirectly causes wars.....

More: http://www.google.ca...8&output=gplain

You can also ask Keith more in-depth questions below.

Do you see sports; in particular (fan)atic association with specific teams, players, or types of sport as a derivative memetically driven behavior?

Does the relationship of spectacle play a stimulative part in this analysis?

Can there also exist other triggers than substances and "extreme behaviors" that trigger the cascade of neurotransmitters in the brain such as sequences of sounds (music and/or words), images (erotica & violence), and even highly "rewarding" endeavors like hobbies, dance, and say perhaps even mathematical analysis for specific individuals?

Can the association with neuro-stimulators predate civilization in a contributory fashion not limited to the tribal association described in your essay? For example there is an association for substance use (as opposed to abuse) for every culture globally involved with advanced urban social development and great civil works, beer/wine being the most obvious historical example but the actual list is much longer.

Lastly, I enjoyed your essay very much as well as your alacrity in acknowledging bias but I wonder if you have overlooked this aspect of conscious bias as also exemplary of the "memetic competition"?

In other words the dominant memes are also providing individual stimulus through the same methods but are in competition to control popular behavior so there becomes "approved" versus "unapproved" drugs, such as a vast array of socially acceptable behavioral modifiers (the current generation of antidepressant drugs) versus self diagnosed & applied methods for addressing this experience.

And could this be a result of the social necessity to confront the breakdown of memetic assimilation by a very large segment of global society when confronted with the disassociation of the personal behavior with the somewhat instinctive motivations for their behavioral & psychological goals?

>Do you see sports; in particular (fan)atic association with specific teams, players, or types of sport as a derivative memetically driven behavior?

I am not sure exactly what you mean by "derivative memetically driven behavior."

>Does the relationship of spectacle play a stimulative part in this analysis?

It is well worth reading the NYT article mentioned in the article. It makes the case as to why sports events are rewarding (dopamine).

>Can there also exist other triggers than substances and "extreme behaviors" that trigger >the cascade of neurotransmitters in the brain such as sequences of sounds (music and/or >words), images (erotica & violence), and even highly "rewarding" endeavors like hobbies, >dance, and say perhaps even mathematical analysis for specific individuals?

Sure. the NYT article tied them all together.

>Can the association with neuro-stimulators predate civilization in a contributory fashion >not limited to the tribal association described in your essay?

Certainly. I have seen argument that alcohol was the driving force that got people into agriculture.

>For example there is an
>association for substance use (as opposed to abuse) for every culture globally involved >with advanced urban social development and great civil works, beer/wine being the most >obvious historical example but the actual list is much longer.

From a genetic viewpoint, it makes sense that rewards for social status (leading to improved reproductive success) would have evolved and not rewards for getting drunk and being eaten. Social rewards seem to be mediated by chemicals that alcohol and drugs mimic. Resistance to alcohol seems to have been aquired at great cost by various populations and is being aquired by others.

>Lastly, I enjoyed your essay very much as well as your alacrity in acknowledging bias but >I wonder if you have overlooked this aspect of conscious bias as also exemplary of >the "memetic competition"?

>In other words the dominant memes are also providing individual stimulus through the >same methods but are in competition to control popular behavior so there >becomes "approved" versus "unapproved" drugs, such as a vast array of socially >acceptable behavioral modifiers (the current generation of antidepressant drugs) versus >self diagnosed & applied methods for addressing this experience.

There are memes that are valuable just because everyone else is doing the same. Consider driving on one side or the other of a street. It doesn't much matter which, some countries drive on the left, others the right, but it is a very good idea that everyone do it the same. Every kind of "standardization" meme, dress, behavior, ect would be like this as well as speaking the same language.

But when you get to attention rewards or capture-bonding or drugs, those things are rooted deeper than curtural standards.

>And could this be a result of the social necessity to confront the breakdown of memetic >assimilation by a very large segment of global society when confronted with the >disassociation of the personal behavior with the somewhat instinctive motivations for their >behavioral & psychological goals?

This is too complicated for me to parse and count on understanding it. Can you cut it up in smaller chunks and provide some examples?

Keith Henson

>And could this be a result of the social necessity to confront the breakdown of memetic >assimilation by a very large segment of global society when confronted with the >disassociation of the personal behavior with the somewhat instinctive motivations for their >behavioral & psychological goals?

This is too complicated for me to parse and count on understanding it. Can you cut it up in smaller chunks and provide some examples?

Actually I was leaving the questions as open ones for the discussion coming up in case I couldn't make it. Thank you for kindly addressing them sooner.

BTW, the first question if I had proofed it better should have read: "as derivative of a memetically driven behavior..." But you basically answered it anyway. And I have read some of the references you cite but I will go and read the NYTimes article to see what light it sheds. And while conformity has its advantages socially it also tends to make societies more vulnerable to total collapse in the face of stresses that can overwhelm large segments simultaneously, and the collapse of most great civilizations can also be traced to a certain inflexibility that is acquired through the same process that is rewarded for conformity in early success.

Genetically the analogue was the vulnerability of the Irish potato crop when they were all essentially clones (extremely successful conformity) that made them all vulnerable to the same blight. What is often successful earlier in a social development is often destructive later, particularly when it reduces adaptability to unforeseen (or fore seen and denied) environmental change.

In the case of technologies it is like when the Romans adopted the use of lead for cooking and food storage vessels (because it didn't rapidly corrode and was inexpensive) but that contributed to mental illness, blindness and other disabilities. The list of examples is long actually, in our society it can be seen in the widespread dependence on fossil fuels.

In the above quote what I was alluding to was the schism between "traditional societies" and their "family values" and the sense that these values were under assault by our modern society's new "family values" essentially this can be seen as a competition of memes in a direct clash over a specifically "evolutionary psychological" behavior, procreation and mating ritual.

Also I don't think the vast majority of the third world is particularly out of the tribal/clan phase and even in the Industrialized First World the consolidation of wealth and power can still be seen as predicated on tribal/clan models whether we are describing the British monarchy or the Ford family. Despite widespread industrialization we aren't as far from the paadigm of feudal capitalism as many would like to think and it wouldn't take to offset the gains of the past few centuries. Again civilizations historically have risen AND fallen, and often many of the memes that drive the collapse are some of the same ones that drove the rise.

So my question as to the "bias” is that while you have assumed certain "memes" to be desirable this does not alter the fact that it is not universally accepted and the "nature" of the clash would be beneficial to outline because perhaps some aspects are assumed and others are irreconcilable but defining the specific elements would be helpful in any case.

I suspect a lot of this to be the case in the tripartite clash of Christian, Jewish, and Islamic cultures involving the Mid-East but when we get to Africa a different set of memetic conflicts involving internecine tribal competitions and their ability to be manipulated by external groups may take precedence over the inherent conflict of memes that we see in the paradigms of the Mid-east.

But in the case of the approved versus unapproved methods of dealing with the widespread use of BOTH legal and illegal antidepressants what I was alluding to was the FAILURE of the alternative meme being offered through social engineering and conformity to in fact provide a significant proportion of the people even in the advanced First World a sense that what they are doing is personally rewarding.

In particular the evolving memes for the family structure that I am referring to may be seen as at the heart of the conflict globally as the perceived clash of cultures is actually something even deeper that is seen internally within society, not just between societies as these new memes are neither assimilated, nor particularly rewarding to those that have.

My suspicion is that this is at least in part because we aren't having an open negotiation on these subjects but are simply reacting to the widespread failure of the older memes in the courts, at the office, in our homes, and on battlefields. We are caught up in a struggle of dominant memes but not in a rational analysis of which memes would best serve our general social interests globally, regionally and individually, as well as which are potentially destructive psychologically and socially.

Memes governing issues like the role of the State in the family, the roles of parents with respect to children, the concepts of gender, procreation responsibilities, parenting and providing, are all behaviorally derivative of the evolutionary psychology of procreative strategies, which have all been the purview of the various regional religions for thousands of years.

For example examine the issue of gay parenting and the relationship of this new paradigm to the discussion both globally and as it affects the clash of traditional versus modern society.

Thanks for providing us the preview and I appreciate your personal response. My goal was to try and raise the some of my concerns for the discussion as I said in case I couldn't attend.

CHAT ARCHIVE:





<MichaelA> did lots of people threaten you when you were acting out against the Scientologists?
<hkhenson> well, lots of scientologist did. otherwise I got a lot of support
<hkhenson> over 250 people picketed with me one time or another


<celindra> QUESTION: What groups do you see now exhibiting cultish qualities?
<hkhenson> lots of them. even Enron

<Guest> Question: Would you do anything different if you could in regards to how you protested against the Scientologists?
<hkhenson> hmmm
<hkhenson> that's a tough one. I might have used remailers to go after them. But they got some the people who did use them worse than me.

<Utnapishtim> Are cults qualitatively in their mechanism different from other social groupings or is it a matter of degree?
<hkhenson> degree, people do just about everything they do for the same rewards they get in cults
<hkhenson> the big difference is that winning the nobel prize or at least doing something useful that you are appreciated for is out in the wider world rather in a confined cult
<hkhenson> the chemical rewards are just the same though

<Guest> Question: What would it take for B.J. Klein to become the multi-millionaire leader of an immortalist cult where he is revered like a god??
<hkhenson> Well, *I* know how to do it. But why should I let him in on how? If you ask nicely I might let you join my cult
<hkhenson> seriously, the keys to doing this are out in the open
<hkhenson> though it is like animal breeding. Theory didn't catch up with practice for a *long* time.
<hkhenson> partly you just have to have the personality to be a cult leader.
<hkhenson> I think I might be too lazy to do it.
<hkhenson> but don't know about BJ
<BJKlein> leaders are targets, i'd really like to stay behind the scenes and help others

<RotaerkAWAY> I've spoken to AlonzoTG before...he seems convinced the group that hangs out in SL4 is a cult. Im sure others do too
<hkhenson> that's almost certainly true to some degree
<hkhenson> attention from groups is highly rewarding
<hkhenson> and there are many ways to get it. being low key is sure one of them.

<Guest> Eliezer's following borders on fanatical based on what I've seen and heard
<Utnapishtim> He does have some pretty fanatical followers, yes. That does disturb me
<MichaelA> whoa, am I fanatical?

<BJKlein> Do you think an artificial substitute could be created to perfectly mimic, or even go beyond what happens in the mind concerning cults/sex/etc... if so, will this spell the end to social cohesion for humanity as we currently know it? Or, is the mind flexible enough to ward off such damaging prospects?
<hkhenson> That's a good question.
<hkhenson> I think there is variation in how we respond to attention
<hkhenson> for somepeople it is entirely addicting
<hkhenson> for other less so, and some people are very good at detecting 'empty' attention
<hkhenson> where others are just using it to exploit you
<hkhenson> but I think APs are likely to be built for this *very* reason.
<hkhenson> it is not hard at all for me to consider an AP that ran a major cult.
<hkhenson> AP being artificial personality
<hkhenson> fortunately, the variation in what rewards us may be enough to keep really massive cult like insanity from taking over in that we are just lucky, or so I hope

<Utnapishtim> QUESTION: How do age, intelligence and gender effect the succeptibility to cult-like memes
<hkhenson> not as much as I would have thought.
<hkhenson> the people who get into cults often get into more than one of them serially
<hkhenson> though some join just one and learn from the experience.
<hkhenson> others will join any that comes along.
<hkhenson> one thing about scientologists is that they can be scammed at high rates by almost anything that comes along
<hkhenson> I was talking to one of them two years ago and he remarked that he knew the group had been subjected to a simply remarkable number of frauds

<Utnapishtim> Are the attractive/socially competent in more danger of infection thatn loner/outsider types?
<hkhenson> I don't know
<hkhenson> I do know that people who go into acting are more likly to get sucked into a cult
<hkhenson> for the obvious reason that they are highly rewarded by attenton
<hkhenson> attention

<EmilG> You mean, these people get scammed while still in the church?
<hkhenson> in scientology, yeah
<hkhenson> bummer for them
<hkhenson> but take a look at www.slatkinfraud.com
<hkhenson> slatkin took a mess of people, half of the scns for about 285 million bucks
<hkhenson> ponzi scam
<hkhenson> the multi level marketer Amway.

<Utnapishtim> I have known someone who succumbed to both Amway and the Jehovahs witnesses.
<hkhenson> not uncommon.
<hkhenson> cults all use the same psychological mechanism

<EmilG> With the approval of the leaders of the Church?
<hkhenson> re scams
<hkhenson> no, the scn managment wants the money to all flow to them
<hkhenson> but the marks get the idea that they can make a quick killing somewhere and spend it all on auditine
<hkhenson> Re amway, it has been having serious problems for a while and has shrunk some.
<hkhenson> friend of mine has a web page up about them
<hkhenson> as well as a lot about scientology

<Utnapishtim> Why are cult activities more successful in some time periods than in others?
<hkhenson> that's a really good question
<Utnapishtim> thanks:)
<hkhenson> and the subject of my next paper
<hkhenson> I think the reason for wars or at least one reason is a psychological mechanism that makes memes to dehumanize another tribe

<hkhenson> more likely to spread in times of privation or anticipated privation
<hkhenson> this is the explaination of the spread of the nazis in pre war german

<Utnapishtim> How dramatically does education level affect succeptability to cults
<hkhenson> on education, not very much at all
<hkhenson> it is much more like drug addiction where the rewards get in under the reasoning circuits
<hkhenson> smart people are better at rationizing what they are doing rather than being rational itself
<hkhenson> there is one possible exception, but it would take serious research


<hkhenson> namely people in scientology and perhaps other cults, to them the concept of blind and double blind testing just won't fit in their minds
<hkhenson> they simply cannot imagine that people can fool themselves

<Utnapishtim> It would be interesting to find out what the economic costs in say the United states of cult activities is in an average year
<hkhenson> re cost, it is high
<hkhenson> the scn cult took the US treasury for well over 2 billion dollars
<hkhenson> and the number of cases where credit card holders go broke after the cult gets them to run up debts is astounding
<hkhenson> consider what the aum cult cost japan

<caliban> modeling the world wide social environment to see where it is going and what might be done about it.
<caliban> sorry, I shot the text above off to soon... but since I did ... would you care to elaborate on "what might be done"?
<hkhenson> to some extent I don't know
<hkhenson> I have reached a rather deep understanding of the problem
<hkhenson> but not any earth shaking conclusions about what could be done.
<hkhenson> it is a major problem because the whole islam business is due to cult type behavior
<caliban> so no fancy ideas about "countermemetics?"
<hkhenson> not really
<hkhenson> though there is a test I would like to run
<hkhenson> I am not sure the population is large enough
<hkhenson> but it would be really interesting to track down the high school kids
<hkhenson> who went through The Wave at Cubberly high school in palo alto
<hkhenson> and see if their numbers joining a cult were as high as a control group
<hkhenson> teaching the meme about memes might be of help
<hkhenson> as well as seeing how kids do who understand double blind testing
<caliban> interessting- thank you very much
<hkhenson> the question being are people selected out?
<hkhenson> or do they lose the information after being in a cult for a while?

<EmilG> How is the SCN cult doing today, compared to 10 years ago?
<hkhenson> re how scn is doing
<hkhenson> badly, but not badly enough
<hkhenson> the problem is that they have a ton of money
<hkhenson> the internet though is killing them.

<Utnapishtim> If I could make one reform to education around the world it would be in drilling people from a young age on the difference between scientific and anecdotal evidence
<Utnapishtim> It really seems like this is something that could be taught
<hkhenson> that is what I was covering on the double blind business.
<hkhenson> there needs to be better ways of teaching or tapping into our social knowledge.


<BJK> I wonder if there are any good examples or quick tests that would reveal the level of rational thinking in individuals.
<hkhenson> there sure is a need for such tests
<hkhenson> ranking gulibility

<lazlo1> First must come a desire to access the knowledge concurrent with a willingness to tolerate discontinuity with desired belief
<hkhenson> You can impose a lot on kids in school though
<hkhenson> but it is not obvious the powers that be would put up with such a training

<Guest> Question: What are 1-3 books you would recommend to make on aware/resistant to cult memes?
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> that's a tough one
<hkhenson> there isn't any I can think about. selfish gene is kind of background to all kinds of stuff though

<Rotaerk> dont men rely more on the critical/logical side of the brain and women use both? (btw, is that whole right-left half of the brain thing true or is it a mystical way of looking at the brain?)
<hkhenson> not entirely bs.
<hkhenson> but you need to get much deeper into understanding the modular mind


<MRAmes> There has been much discussion over the past 20 years or so about how people are searching for something to fill the void of religions that nolonger seem relavent.
<MRAmes> Do you see this as another reason for the rise of cults in the modern world?
<hkhenson> actually, I don't see cults today as as big a problem as they have been in the past
<hkhenson> consider the children's crusade
<hkhenson> 20,000 kids marched out of germany
<lazlo1> wouldn't that depend on where you live?
<hkhenson> two came back
<hkhenson> the rest mostly got sold into slavery
<hkhenson> and a generation later they did it again.
<hkhenson> now, they might become a really serious problem. something based off islam would be my guess for the biggest problem we have between now and the singularlity


<Utnapishtim> I think women see the world very much as being made up of people and men as made of things/institutions
<hkhenson> there is a split along gender lines
<hkhenson> but odder than you would think
<hkhenson> and sometimes hardly at all
<hkhenson> for example, men and women seem to be about the same in capture bonding response
<hkhenson> when it mattered much less for men
<hkhenson> since they were mostly just killed
<hkhenson> the biggest difference related to male bonding.

<MRAmes> I see people that are desperate for something to give thier lives meaning, and cults provide that - if only a straw to grasp at. Isn't this also a reason why people get 'sucked in'?
<hkhenson> mra, it is more like chemicals
<hkhenson> dope and cults are operating on the exact same reward mechanisms
<hkhenson> did you read the article?
<MRAmes> Oh, I agree with the points in your paper... but is the reasons for joining always the chemicals?
<hkhenson> indirectly yes
<MRAmes> It would seem that the chemicals wouldn't exist/be created until the cult was joined.
<MRAmes> And participation had begun.
<hkhenson> ever hear of love bombing?
<hkhenson> that's the way the moonies got people
<MRAmes> Hmm... yes, I see you point.

<hkhenson> the scns often held out the possiblity you would get laid
<MRAmes> Hit them hard with something they want at the start to hook them?
<MRAmes> is that it?
<hkhenson> the Rajaneesh delivered on sex, lots and lots of it.
<hkhenson> partly mra

<Utnapishtim> Hmm. Joining the church of scientology seems like a very costly way to get laid
<hkhenson> a lot of it is conditioning
<hkhenson> utn, especially when they seldom delivered.

<MichaelA> the Torah is a pretty cool example of that, possibly the best
<MichaelA> and the associated scholastic analysis of it
<hkhenson> don't forget that a religion is a cult that evolved to be a mutualistic symbiote from an outright parasite
<hkhenson> an interesting fact is that the jewish groups are highly resistant to christianity type cult memes
<hkhenson> people of jewish cultural extraction are around one percent of the US population
<hkhenson> but the krisna cult was nearly ten percent
<hkhenson> so there certainly is selection going on there.
<hkhenson> utn, people who joined because the nice looking chick invited them in--that was the last they saw of her

<lazlo1> judaism generally does not evangelicize and rarely if ever historically has
<hkhenson> laz, that's true

<Utnapishtim> Judaism seems to be founded on the very disprovable notion that if you follow an arbitrary set of rules, good things will happen IN THIS LIFE
<hkhenson> no kidding utn

<lazlo1> they are matrilinial and protect female lineage and do not add population
<lazlo1> offspring of male jews out of the religion are not acknowledged wereas even the offspring of the rape of a jewish woman is accepted
<hkhenson> the jews have been engaged in a breeding program for a very long time
<hkhenson> since the culture gives women choice and they are not interested in the unbright ones
<Utnapishtim> my my how unPC this conversation has become
<lazlo1> the religion as orthodox is very strict
<lazlo1> I am not criticisizing UP I am only stating a fact

<hkhenson> religions, and the jews are no exception, are always throwing off cults
<hkhenson> there is a good argument as to why in the last chapter of Pascal Boyer's book
<hkhenson> oscilates if you will because a standard version lacks something

<lazlo1> I have only added it because judaism does not operate as a cult, except in some of its extreme instances
<lazlo1> but it does operate as an exclusive club in which clanishness overlaps cult behavior
<hkhenson> it is to some extent protective
<hkhenson> so-called "normal" groups, like, say, the Republican party, can be remarkably "cultlike", but they hide it better

<MichaelA> cultishness just seems to be a superancestral exaggeration of our natural hierachy-fabricating tendencies
<MichaelA> cults will always talk in groups of around or less than 200
<hkhenson> there is a break in size between tribe sized cults and larger "franchized ones
<lazlo1> a good lecture hall
<hkhenson> but the mechanisms work the same.

<hkhenson> as I was saying, I think a person could work out an AP.
<lazlo1> interesting I also mentioned the matrilineal issue because of the sex specific character of it
<hkhenson> mike of moon is a harsh mistress
<hkhenson> I think that is a minor factor laz
<hkhenson> sorry

<celindra> Linux is just a OS devolution
<hkhenson> linux as a cult is very interesting
<hkhenson> not exactly sure what to make of it though

<lazlo1> jewish males of ladino extraction that went to the New World as colonists were exempted by the inquisition but females were protected very similarly to how Islam treats women

<lazlo1> clubs are cults?
<lazlo1> comon interests are cults?
<lazlo1> when is the process distinct?
<Utnapishtim> In the end it all depends on how braod your definition of cult is. Cults are simply group dynamics at one extreme of the bellcurve
<hkhenson> that's true.
<hkhenson> because the same reward mechanism is at work when we go to work and through out our social lives but not only are the groups on the end of the curve, but the people are too

<hkhenson> if falon gong were to turn violent we would be in real trouble because they are a much larger outfit than scientology
<hkhenson> at least ten and maybe a hundred times
<hkhenson> scn has 50k max in north america
<hkhenson> maybe in the whole world
<lazlo1> but isn't that in part predicated on the common sentiment that drew the membership together?

<hkhenson> falon gong has upwards of 20 million and it might be 50 million
<lazlo1> falong gong came together as pacifist
<Utnapishtim> Surely large group size helps to moderate again
st extreme behavior
<hkhenson> no
<lazlo1> but still a protest movement
<hkhenson> communism.
<hkhenson> nazism. aum. size is not a predictor of violence
<hkhenson> ben ladin
<lazlo1> agreed democracy is not a protection against a tyranny of the masses
<lazlo1> but I was discussing the core philosophy

<Utnapishtim> Nazism: It depends on how far you believe the average german was implicated in the cult

<celindra> QUESTION -- Are there any Scientology splinter groups?
<hkhenson> yes
<hkhenson> many of them.
<hkhenson> many of them are called freezone

<celindra> I assume they have issues with the main group?
<hkhenson> sort of
<hkhenson> it is more a dynamic of the memes involved.

<lazlo1> does the cult of personality aspect enter into this part of the behavioral choice?
<lazlo1> pacifist versus militant? versus the attractive philosophical hook?
<hkhenson> though there are exceptions, jim jones and the heaven's gate bunch
<hkhenson> right laz.
<hkhenson> take the dukabors
<hkhenson> vegitarians

<lazlo1> that is why I said I am not worried about sudden turn arounds, the nazi's were never pacifist, falong gong needs to do an about face to become so militant
<hkhenson> known to blow up whole trains to get at someone with divient doctrine

<Rotaerk> but doesnt cult behavior depend on how unquestioning the people are? unquestioning people are called followers. well....they can question but do it anyway
<hkhenson> mostly they are people who are conditioned to the drug like attention rewards the cult gives them

<Utnapishtim> If people feel the need to swear blind allegiance to some greater group they should choose something harmless like the Boston Red Sox
<hkhenson> for drugs people will do just about anything
<hkhenson> it is not so much an abstract need as a real craving for something genetically linked
<lazlo1> sex is a drug then?
<hkhenson> directly to reproductive success
<lazlo1> politics is a drug then?
<hkhenson> no
<hkhenson> but attention has drug like effects
<lazlo1> money (greed) is a drug as well?
<hkhenson> because it causes the brain to release reward chemicals
<hkhenson> have you ever done public speaking?
<lazlo1> I think they may in fact be because of what you just said
<lazlo1> me?
<hkhenson> how did hunter thompson put it?
<hkhenson> better than sex?
<hkhenson> but there is a *reason*
<hkhenson> rooted in our evolution in tribes

<Utnapishtim> I wonder if politically correct education, narrowing the boundaries of acceptable opinion to a preselected set of choices will contribute to our vulnerability to cults
<hkhenson> utn, I don't know

<Guest1> in my work I often use selective praise in lieu of a financial reward for an employee
<hkhenson> bingo guest
<hkhenson> right you are laz

<lazlo1> many a rock and roll star and politico will agree
<lazlo1> Kissinger (the real one) said "Power is the ultimate aphrodisiac"
<hkhenson> yep he knew what he said
<hkhenson> but can you tell me why?
<lazlo1> because it correlates to the maximization of possible mates and probable offspring
<hkhenson> bingo.
<hkhenson> the cheif is the most desireable in the tribe
<lazlo1> from an evolutionary biological perspective
<hkhenson> as a woman your kids are better off if you mate iwth the most powerful guy around

<Rotaerk> QUESTION: Can you have a cult without a leader? Without followers?
<hkhenson> rot, don't know.

<Guest> Question: Are their strictly internet based cults?
<hkhenson> guest might be. I don't know for sure, but I can see some things that look like they might be trying
<hkhenson> saw one today, mentioned on the memetics mailing list, Brights

<BJK> Question: why do some feel nervous around powerful people
<hkhenson> because in the past such people could have you killed?
<hkhenson> I don't know for sure on that one
<BJK> yeh.. seems a little strange

<hkhenson> there is a second part to "may you live in interesting times"
<hkhenson> "and attract the attention of important people"

<Rotaerk> it just seems as thought a cult is just a group with an overall goal, whose followers give the power of thought/reason to the leader
<Rotaerk> it's basically a place to lose worry
<Rotaerk> and feel part of something greater
<Guest1> Rot: you could have just described the military!
<Guest1> lol
<Rotaerk> well, then I say the military is a cult
<hkhenson> military is very much a cult
<Guest1> ahhh.....
<hkhenson> people are capture-bonded into it
<Guest1> the draft?
<hkhenson> I discuss it to some extent in the article
<hkhenson> once you understand capture bonding as a human psychological trait, it explains a lot, including battered wife
<hkhenson> frat hazing.
<hkhenson> basic training
<hkhenson> S&M even
<hkhenson> wow
<Guest1> even religion (God chastens those he loves)
<hkhenson> this has been something else, my fingers hurt
<hkhenson> ah, religion takes some really careful understanding involving cog sci.
<Guest1> I have never heard the term "capture bonded" before
<BJK> take a break hkhenson
<hkhenson> I cannot recommend pascal boyers book highly enough.
<BJK> you need some cultish encouragement and some high praise
<hkhenson> but plan on taking a lot of time to read it.
<Guest1> lol
<Guest1> *it's time to really love bomb Keith!*
<Utnapishtim> Cryonics seems a superficially ideal basis for drawing a ccult following. Why have the numbers not grown?
<Guest1> : )
<hkhenson> ah, I am all too aware of my own deep reasons for doing things
<BJK> http://www.imminst.o...&f=13&t=1193&s= for more on Pascal Boyer 'Religion Explained'
<Guest1> *because it's NOT a cult*
<Utnapishtim> I know it isn't
<Utnapishtim> I am entirely supportive of it
<Guest1> people don't sign up for cryonics for a variety of reasons
<Utnapishtim> but It would still seem to meet many of the requirements that would allow cults to form in its orbit
<Guest1> I've never had the Alcor staff love bomb me!
<Guest1> lol
<Utnapishtim> that hasn't really happened
<hkhenson> oddly, I can make a case that cryonics went right into being a religion and bypassed the cult stage
<hkhenson> at least to some extent
<BJK> hkhenson, would you say your deep motivation is to eventually travel into the universe.. and this is just a step along the way?
<hkhenson> that's true bj
<hkhenson> but more likely it is just a rationization
<hkhenson> :-)
<hkhenson> deep motivation for almost all of us is to be well thought of by our peers
<hkhenson> obtaining status.
<BJK> agreed
<hkhenson> because that was the thing that translated into reproductive success for most of our evolution
<Utnapishtim> transhumanist status... Of all the places you can gain status this one is surely among the least likely to lead to reproductive success!
<hkhenson> effectively since we became social
<hkhenson> utn, that's a fact
<hkhenson> but it does not prevent us being motivated that way
<Utnapishtim> no of course not...
<Guest1> I responded to some personal ads with a paragraph about being an immortalist....
<hkhenson> our psychological traits are way out of step with the environment we live in
<Utnapishtim> Guest: Why?
<hkhenson> it is hard to get more status than a nobel prize
<Utnapishtim> The Heisman Trophy
<Guest1> I just wanted to be open about myself
<Utnapishtim> The Vince Lombardi Trophy
<hkhenson> but I would bet you it hardly translates into reproductive success at all
<Utnapishtim> A World Series ring
<Rotaerk> i.e. the desire for social status may have evolved opening way for sexual opportunity, but it can still exist without sexual opportunity being the goal
<Guest1> but I think it was overdoing it due to the fact only about one in ten women responded back
<Rotaerk> oops, I type too slow
<Rotaerk> that was a bit late
<hkhenson> rot, yep
<Rotaerk> heh
*tool_ImmInst* should i lift the general mute?
<hkhenson> <EmilG> Nobody is getting rich off of cryonics.
<hkhenson> <Guest> I thought the Alcor staff all drove Mercedes and lived in mansions??
<hkhenson> heh heh. no.
<hkhenson> they are lucky to have a working car.
<Utnapishtim> If Cryonics works... I wonder how much a first edition of ;Prospects of Immortality' will be worth????
<Davidov> vroom
<hkhenson> if cryonics works, how could you tell?
<Utnapishtim> If you are into collecting books that isn't a bad sepeculative investment
<Rotaerk> well...davidov just sped into the room
<hkhenson> atom for atom duplicates would be easy then
<Davidov> *screech*
<hkhenson> I am interested in extending the evolutionary psychology/memetics into some new areas
<hkhenson> there is an excellent book by steven a leblanc
<hkhenson> about southwest archology and the centuries of war they had
<hkhenson> after the climate went bad
<hkhenson> but they kept at it long after things got better
<Guest1> were the Hopi and Apache the two major groups left standing?
<hkhenson> or at least the ratio of people to resouces got better
<hkhenson> no guest.
<hkhenson> the apaches were newcommers and not many of them
<hkhenson> the zuni and the hopi and the acoma the three remaining when 27 other groups died out
<hkhenson> during their long assendence intergroup warfare was at an extremely low level
<hkhenson> this was over a huge area
<hkhenson> there is a real question as to how they kept down the fighting
<hkhenson> but once the crops started failing, they jumped into a mode that killed the vast majority of them
<hkhenson> because to defend they had to move into very large groups
<lazlo1> there are genetic studies underway as well I expect published findings on mitochondrial migrations... That is true they weren't violent at first they became violent under the hardship of nomadicism
<hkhenson> but that made being a farmer very difficult
<hkhenson> laz, no evidence that the corn farmers ever became nomadic
<lazlo1> after the microclimates they depended on collapsed under severe long term draught
<hkhenson> they died in place or were killed by other corn farmers raiding them.
<lazlo1> I disagree I have seen a lot of it while studying in Mexico
<hkhenson> well, read leblanc's books and suggest others I should read
<hkhenson> though what I am talking about was restricted to the southwest.
<hkhenson> in the US
<hkhenson> though there is good reason to think something much like their problems got the myans
<lazlo1> I have personally examined numerous artifacts from teh anasasiz culture and many of their stone works and engravings are preserved in the migrations of Chichimecan peoples
<hkhenson> too much population when the rains failed.
<lazlo1> true
<hkhenson> you could be right.
<lazlo1> they were successful but unprepared for the weather shift
<hkhenson> I thing the timing is off a bit
<hkhenson> but it might be close enough
<lazlo1> I am not talking about Toltec or Maya
<hkhenson> in any case, though there was evidence of extremely cruel things going on, there was no clumping up during before about 1250 or so
<hkhenson> moving into defensive arangements
<lazlo1> I am talking about the waves of migrations out of the region during the end of the classical period roughly 900 ad through 1125 ad
<hkhenson> which were very hard on them trying to raise corn
<avantopia> on the subject of cults; do any prominent cults in the US use drugs as a way to keep members 'hooked' on the cult?
<hkhenson> avan, yes an no
<hkhenson> they don't use external drugs
<hkhenson> but they cause sensive people to release their own reward chemicals.
<hkhenson> mostly by attention.
<hkhenson> cults want people to work for attention
<hkhenson> rather than just shoot up the reward
<hkhenson> so most cults are rather anti drug
<avantopia> k
<lazlo1> are market fads operating off the same mechanisms as cults?
<avantopia> I think so.
<hkhenson> but I bet you long odds I could capture bond someone in an afternoon with a cocktale of chemicals that acted like the ones released in capture bonding
<hkhenson> btw, capture bonding == stockholm syndrome
<hkhenson> more descriptive name is all
<hkhenson> perhaps on market fads.
<hkhenson> but much milder and not so organized
<Guest1> Question: In some parallel universe is there the "evil Keith Henson" who is a rich and powerful cult leader because he went over to the "dark side" with his knowledge of cults?
<hkhenson> and usually not so harmful
<Utnapishtim> Hkenson: Ever thought about going into cult contruction
<lazlo1> why are some people relativley impervious while the majority are all too susceptible?
<Utnapishtim> do you think you could if you wanted to?
<lazlo1> to capture bonding?
<hkhenson> actually I have considered becoming a cult leader
<Guest1> YOU HAVE!
<hkhenson> having been there to some extent when running the L5 society

<BJKlein> googlebot: hubbard "make a million"
<googlebot> googling for hubbard "make a million"
<googlebot> http://www.urbanlege...inlein_bet.html
<Guest1> I read Scientology has a special four star caliber resort for their super celebrity members
<Guest1> is this true?
<hkhenson> in fact, travolta contributed $20,000 toward ruining my lawyer
<Guest1> yeouch!
<hkhenson> guest, located where I was arrested
<hkhenson> near Hemet California
<hkhenson> I was protesting them killing two young women
<Guest1> please tell us the story
<lazlo1> They do capture bonding well but it doesn't always gett eh whole family, I knew someone who divorced her husband when he went intot he cult
<hkhenson> google: cipriano travolta berry moxon
<hkhenson> laz, scn uses capture bonding on people who try to escape


<hkhenson> but mostly they get addicted to the attention
<hkhenson> googlebot: cipriano declaration
<lazlo1> is attention dependance also taught?
<lazlo1> especially in women a lot goes into teaching "atractiveness" in addition to the obvious instinctive quality
<hkhenson> laz, they don't understand what they are doing at all
<hkhenson> not at the evolutionary psychology level
<BJKlein> googlebot: capriano declaration
<avantopia> what is 'capture bonding' ?
<googlebot> googling for capriano declaration
<googlebot> http://www.history.u..._1598_1618.html
<lazlo1> is there a synergy between the marketing aspects, and teh mating aspect that has been exploited for obvious reasons?
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> the whole declaration is on lermanet.com
<hkhenson> somewhere
<hkhenson> ava, stockhome syndrome
<avantopia> oh
<avantopia> k
<hkhenson> laz, attractiveness is not the same thing as attention rewards
<lazlo1> agreed but they overlap
<hkhenson> that has a more obvious function
<hkhenson> women are attractive in direct relation to how it makes them look fertile
<hkhenson> men are more affected by attention
<hkhenson> because attention is the way we measure status.
<lazlo1> I am wondering if the two have a relationship that is encouraged by the methodology of marketing that has made many people more vulnerable through mass media?
<hkhenson> and status is vital to reproductive success for men
<hkhenson> I have to go off for half an hour or so.
<BJKlein> k hkhenson
<lazlo1> I agree about the basic evolutionary psychology
<hkhenson> will be back later if any of you are.
<Lukian> k hkhenson
<BJKlein> thanks so much for your time
<Guest1> definitely
<lazlo1> good talking with you
<Hugh_Bristic1> Hello
<Lukian> hey, how r you ?
<Hugh_Bristic1> Me?
<Hugh_Bristic1> I'm fine.
<Hugh_Bristic1> A little late though, apparently.
<Hugh_Bristic1> And you?
<Utnapishtim> Hey Hugh
<Hugh_Bristic1> Hey Utna
<Utnapishtim> Thanks for the feedback on the thread th other day
<Hugh_Bristic1> Enjoyed reading your posts on the discussion forums
<Utnapishtim> I will get back to you on that issue
<Hugh_Bristic1> Look forward to it.
<Hugh_Bristic1> You gonna be at TransVision?
<Utnapishtim> I checked out your website by the way
<Utnapishtim> I'm afraid I can't make it
<Utnapishtim> I'm in London
<Hugh_Bristic1> What did you think?
<Utnapishtim> I really liked a lot of the song lyrics
<Utnapishtim> The Jesus one was a particular favorite
<Hugh_Bristic1> London? Cool. Always good to hear that the interest in these things isn't just an American obsession.
<Utnapishtim> There ain't no cause for a debate, I don't need a reason for my hate
<Utnapishtim> well I'm not exactly representative of my countrymen in most things. I have had a pretty american education
<Utnapishtim> both as a kid at international school and the at Penn State
<Guest1> what did you study?
<Utnapishtim> economics
<Hugh_Bristic1> Hmm. I've had the impression that the brits lean a bit more towards the analyrtical side of things than the rest of Europe and even much of the US. Is that a misperception on my part?
<Utnapishtim> I think that is probably true
<Utnapishtim> They aren't quite as wrappped up in socialist ideology as most of europe
<Guest1> I once heard a joke which touches on this...
<Utnapishtim> although still too much for my tastes
<Utnapishtim> guest: shoot
<Guest1> What is the difference between the romantic approach of an English young man and an Italian one?
<Guest1> ......
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah./ I've sometimes wondered if they wouldn't feel more at home in the Nortyh American Free Trade Union than the EU. Lets invite Iceland and Noerway and make a party of it!
<Hugh_Bristic1> er... Nprway.
<Hugh_Bristic1> er Norway I mean
<Utnapishtim> Hey I'd love to see britain in NAFTA
<Hugh_Bristic1> er A not U
<Hugh_Bristic1> hate chat. No chance to edit.
<Utnapishtim> Europe believes reduction in iincome difference is a good to be pursued for its own sake, on the whole
<Guest1> when the British young man is in love with a girl from across the sea he will say "let me save up money first for a house and then I can come and marry you."
<Guest1> but the italian says "I will dive into the water and swim to you starting RIGHT NOW!"
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Utnapishtim> that sounds about right
<Guest1> I'm not sure what the young and in love American would say.
<Guest1> lol
<Hugh_Bristic1> I'm an american--love me!
<Hugh_Bristic1> That is all you need to know babay.
<Utnapishtim> probably
<Guest1> "I'll send you a ticket to visit me with my frequent flyer miles!"
<Guest1> I think that would be it
<Guest1> : )
<Utnapishtim> what about the young Iranian?
<Guest1> I don't know...
<Hugh_Bristic1> Lets not go there. Don't want to be ethnocentric.
<Utnapishtim> hmm..
<Guest1> "you have pretty eyes"
<Guest1> at least he could say that
<Hugh_Bristic1> and hands
<Guest1> yep!
<Utnapishtim> why does poking fun at national characteristics have to stop at the boundaries of race
<Guest1> in the U.S. we poke fun at race but in "accepted" ways
<Hugh_Bristic1> You know they are Aryans though.
<Utnapishtim> depends how far you wish to back, no?
<Hugh_Bristic1> That is where the name Iran comes from. Interesting footnote I think.
<Guest1> Black comedians tend to push the boundaries the most
<Utnapishtim> Classification of ethnic groups is a very confusing business
<Utnapishtim> Don't get me started on the double standards of PC culture
<Utnapishtim> I'll be ranting all night
<Hugh_Bristic1> I think it is intersting the progression Iran seems to be making (if the american press reports are to be believed)
<Guest1> I look forward to us encountering aliens so we can see ourselves as the HUMAN race
<Guest1> it will be more apparent to people after extended first contact
<Guest1> I just hope the aliens are not as bad as we are
<Utnapishtim> I'm not convinced we will make contact with aliens
<Guest1> ole' Fermi Paradox?
<Utnapishtim> in fact it really concerns me that we haven't been visited
<Utnapishtim> yup
<Hugh_Bristic1> Perhaps the Muslim world needs to experience some serious religious repression within the context of modernity to decide on their own that it is a bad way to go.
<Guest1> we may have been visited a long time ago but have no knowledge of it
<Utnapishtim> the notion that our kind of intelligence may be ultimately self-limiting seems awfully plausible to me
<Utnapishtim> I hope its wrong
<Utnapishtim> Hugh Bristic: Could you give an example?
<Guest1> our mind children will go where we may not be able to
<Hugh_Bristic1> Iran and the reaction of the younger generation to the coinservative culture and its limits on freedom.
<Guest1> we just need to get everyone in Iran satellite tv so we can utterly corrupt them with our degenerate western memes of materialism and general spiritual shallowness!
<Utnapishtim> Islam IS a major stumbling block. It has something to say about pretty much every aspect of living
<Guest1> They wouldn't stand a chance against the combined forces of Madison Avenue and Hollywood!!
<Utnapishtim> I am reading history of the World by JM Roberts and at the moment
<Hugh_Bristic1> you mean enlighten them with our memes, don't you?
<Utnapishtim> Guest: I agree
<Utnapishtim> Problem is that that just because they buy big macs and Abercrobie t shirts doesn't mean they will give up hating us
<Hugh_Bristic1> I am so sick of hearing about materialism from middle eastern sultanates whose populations wealth is not based on labor.
<Guest1> they bring in outsiders to do the work!
<Guest1> lol
<Guest1> brain work and hard labor
<Guest1> Saudi Arabia will be in serious trouble when the oil runs out
<Utnapishtim> Read an interesting article a few months ago describing the middle eastern regimes as trust fund nations
<Utnapishtim> state income comes from oil primarily rather than taxation
<Utnapishtim> therefore no need/incentive for representation
<Guest1> interesting connection there
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah. The Atlatic Monthly recently had a very interesting article on the sick system in Saudi Arabia
<Hugh_Bristic1> Basically a heriditary elite buys off the rest of the population with oil wealth. But each generation the elite grows larger and the system less sustainable.
<Guest1> how many more years will Saudi Arabia have oil? 20? 30?
<Guest1> will our dependancy last that long?
<Hugh_Bristic1> Heh. They've always got a big resource in solar when the oil runs out! ;-)
<Lukian> rotfl
<Utnapishtim> Re Islam: One problem is that within the Islamic tradition religioin IS society
<Hugh_Bristic1> Exactly!
<Hugh_Bristic1> It is a point of pride.
<Utnapishtim> No words exist in Islamic cultures to differentiate between the sacred and the secular
<Guest1> Turkey broke the hold of Islam
<Guest1> quite amazing
<Utnapishtim> and the more their socioeconomic model is shown to be faulty the more the rest of the world will be resented and scapegoated
<Hugh_Bristic1> But will their system endure? Perhaps Iran is a better model. More grass root--if it works.
<Utnapishtim> basically we need to get them to the point where Islam is reduced to a meaningless ritual
<Utnapishtim> We need them to start paying lip service to their faith rather than taking it seriosuly
<Guest3> shouldn't we try that with Christianity first?
<Utnapishtim> I think in Europe that has largely been achieved
<Guest1> I was about to say that.
<Utnapishtim> Except perhaps Italy
<Guest1> churches being turned into discos and restaurants
<Hugh_Bristic1> Guest3: Isn't that a fait accompli?
<Utnapishtim> 5 minutes from me is a church turned into a bar
<Guest1> I thought England still had a high level of religiousosity among Evangelicals and Mormons
<Guest3> Christianity also still strong in the orthodox east europe
<caliban> good bye immortals
<Utnapishtim> religiousity in england is real low... And I have never met a BRIT MORMON
<Guest1> bye
<Hugh_Bristic1> Hey. There is already communion. Not too big of a transition.
<Hugh_Bristic1> Mormonism is a particularly american form of lunacy.
<Guest1> Hugh: are you american?
<Hugh_Bristic1> Like their commercials though.
<Guest1> lol
<Utnapishtim> I like their Quarterbacks
<Hugh_Bristic1> Darn tootin'!
<Guest1> ok
<Hugh_Bristic1> You?
<Guest1> yes
<Guest1> I have had a number of Mormon friends over the years, generally very cool people
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah. They know how to party!
<Guest3> even if they are obviously delusional??
<Utnapishtim> I wonder how transhumansit memes will spread in cultures that value the individual less than we do. Ie pretty mcuh all the others
<Guest3> lol
<Guest1> party?
<Utnapishtim> Mormons now how to party???
<Guest1> I suppose being able to "party" sober is quite an acquired skill!
<Guest1> lol
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah. Individualism is kind of a prerequisite.
<Guest3> yeah, I don't see a transhuman movement starting in Yemen anytime soon...
<Hugh_Bristic1> Most mormons I know of are really crazy drug loving sluts because they are so repressed!
<Guest3> lol
<Guest1> you mean they get out of the house and rebel big time with drug use and sexual promiscuity?
<Hugh_Bristic1> exactly.
<Guest1> some do
<Utnapishtim> Don't have much experience with mormon women
<Hugh_Bristic1> I'd like to see Marie Osmond off her leash. Pretty hot, I'd bet!
<Guest1> lol!
<Guest1> she has eight kids now!
<Utnapishtim> Guess I'm gonna have to head down to Salt Lake. You telling me BYU is a party school?
<Hugh_Bristic1> See what I mean!
<Guest1> Oh, yeah!
<Guest1> bring on the punch!
<Utnapishtim> alcohol free punch in kegs
<hkhenson> back
<Hugh_Bristic1> Hello.
<hkhenson> reading back
<Lukian> Welcome Back
<Hugh_Bristic1> We've just been having fun talking about Mormons!
<Guest1> who are nice people who spend WAY too much money on TV ad campaigns
<Hugh_Bristic1> I think the ads are sweet!
<Guest1> I admit that
<Utnapishtim> I think they make pretty good quarterbacks and Hugh thinks they are sexual bombs waiting to explode
<Hugh_Bristic1> in my pants
<Hugh_Bristic1> sorry.
<Hugh_Bristic1> Couldn't resist.
<Guest1> I read an article by a sociologist which stated by 2081 Mormonism will rival mainstream Christianity and Islam in terms of size and wealth.
<Guest1> It may be a Mormon Singularity coming our way!!
<Guest1> lol
<Hugh_Bristic1> hopefully not in repression. but if history is any guide...
<Utnapishtim> Polygamy will rise again!
<Guest1> oh, yes!
<Guest1> hee
<Hugh_Bristic1> I get Marie Osmond!
<Guest1> you can have her
<Guest1> I want....
<Hugh_Bristic1> Of course, we could share.
<Hugh_Bristic1> I guess that is the point after all.
<Guest1> I'll take the Mormon Ms. America from a few years back
<Utnapishtim> You guys can keep the Mormon women.. I'm not sold
<Guest1> but I think she's married now
<Hugh_Bristic1> So?
<Utnapishtim> Funny how the most clean cut conservative middle america looking set of people can believe the most whacked out shit
<Guest1> actually, "wholesome" women get my sexual imagination running much more than women who dress very sexually
<Hugh_Bristic1> The Latter Day Saints definitely have somne intersting beliefs.
<Utnapishtim> I guess this part of the chat won't be archived for posterity
<Guest1> I grew up next to a Pentacostal family and their daughters were totally covered up in these seemingly very modest old fashioned dresses but at closer examination they were very figure hugging!
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah. That seems to happen whenever I show up. I wonder if I should be offended.
<Guest1> I thought there was a very deliberate mixed message being sent out by both the daughters and their parents.
<hkhenson> LDS is half way from being a cult to a religion
<hkhenson> takes 300 years about
<hkhenson> religions are just aged and mellowed out cults
<Guest1> what does the LDS leadership have to do to bridge that gap in your opinion?
<hkhenson> boyer has a lto to say
<Hugh_Bristic1> Yeah. Needs to make the transition from cult of personality to obedience to tradition.
<hkhenson> guest, they have been weeding it out
<Guest1> how?
<hkhenson> the temple throat cutting cerimony is gone now
<Utnapishtim> Hugh did you see Casanovas abusive responses in another thread
<hkhenson> I think the underware is less obtrusive
<Hugh_Bristic1> Maybe. Refresh my memory.
<hkhenson> googlebot: mormon underware
<Utnapishtim> The Alcor Head 'joke'
<Hugh_Bristic1> Think I missed that one.
<Utnapishtim> check it out. quite amusing...
<Hugh_Bristic1> What was the jist?
<Guest1> I was thinking in more broad ways in terms of tolerance toward "wayward" members.
<Utnapishtim> He restates his position more abusively
<Utnapishtim> thats his counterargument
<hkhenson> <googlebot> googling for mormon underware
<hkhenson> <googlebot> http://www.exmormon....n/mormon089.htm
<Hugh_Bristic1> That is what I mean about how sometimes atheists can be driven to make intemperate comments.
<hkhenson> googlebot> googling for mormon throat cutting cerimony
<hkhenson> <googlebot> http://www.utlm.org/...etters/no92.htm
<Guest1> Keith, you missed my point
<Hugh_Bristic1> Utna: What do you do in London?
<Utnapishtim> I have just comeback from Hamburg actually
<Utnapishtim> I was working for my uncles business
<Utnapishtim> int he marketing department
<hkhenson> sorry guest what did I miss?
<hkhenson> oh,
<Utnapishtim> well its sort of our whole fams business
<Hugh_Bristic1> which is?
<hkhenson> no, they are unlikely to put up with waywards
<Utnapishtim> right now I've decided to take a timeout.. I will teach english in Japan for a year
<Utnapishtim> We are in car parts
<Utnapishtim> wholesale
<hkhenson> big political problems if they do
<Hugh_Bristic1> I've thought about doing that myself. Sounds like fun. Not really a possibility though now that I'm married.
<Utnapishtim> My grand dad started it up in the 30s
<hkhenson> because many of the waywards are poligamists
<Guest1> Utnap: are you a trust fund kid then?
<Guest1> *I always wanted to be*
<Hugh_Bristic1> Switching to my laptop. See you in a bit.
<Utnapishtim> guest... sorta
<Guest1> so you get a lump sum or a percentage of ownership in the family business?
<hkhenson> I have an extra fun business, does anyone want it?
<Utnapishtim> Right now I get a lump sum
<hkhenson> free
<Utnapishtim> My mom will have 20% ownership when my grandfather dies
<hkhenson> utn, freeze him.
<Utnapishtim> at that point the whole shebang gets turned into stocks from what I understand
<Guest1> and so when one day your mom passes away you will get her percentage?
<hkhenson> goes public?
<Utnapishtim> Hkenson: I wish I could man. I wish I could. I have an enormous amount of repsect for the possibilities he created for our family
<Utnapishtim> yeah
<hkhenson> at least get a cell sample
<Utnapishtim> yeah as in I'll get 20% one day
<hkhenson> heh heh
<hkhenson> friend of mine was a vanderbilt
<hkhenson> but his branch of the family was into fast women and slow horses, so he didn't get a thing
<Guest1> a cell sample will not bring back THE MAN who built a company from scratch
<Guest1> *that will not do it*
<Utnapishtim> lol
<Utnapishtim> My mom refuses point blank to talk about money so I don't really know how things will break down
<Guest1> family money can freak people out
<Utnapishtim> Hey Kissinger!
<hkhenson> that's true guest,
<Utnapishtim> nice to see you in the chat
<Utnapishtim> Its a high quality problem to have though
<hkhenson> but he can explore parts of his genes better
<Guest1> with money you can be miserable in comfort!
<Guest1> ; )
<hkhenson> utn, what sort of shape is your grandad in?
<hkhenson> and is he religious?
<Utnapishtim> Good for a 93 year old man
<Utnapishtim> not really no
<hkhenson> hmm
<hkhenson> have you ever talked to him about it?
<Utnapishtim> He believes in family and wealth
<Utnapishtim> no I haven't
<Guest1> you should
<hkhenson> like, asking if he would go with you on a trip across the galaxy?
<Guest1> mmmmm
<Guest1> that may be pushing it
<Guest1> keep it in more mundane and heartfelt terms
<hkhenson> yeah
<Utnapishtim> I really don't think it would be possible to discuss with my grandparents
<hkhenson> but at that age you don't have much time
<Utnapishtim> scratch that, I know
<hkhenson> well, if he went in and came out he would not be the oldest
<Guest1> he will probably say no but at least you can know you tried
<hkhenson> I froze someone who was 99 5-6 years ago
<Guest1> and not have a nagging feeling of "what could have been"
<Guest1> that would be bad
<Utnapishtim> I will also have caused all sorts of 'concern' from my family about what I'm into
<Utnapishtim> and for what?
<hkhenson> I tried with my parents
<Utnapishtim> Oh I tried with mine
<hkhenson> my dad made it to 92
<Utnapishtim> but they are hippy new age types
<hkhenson> my mom to 89
<hkhenson> only one of my kids is signed up
<hkhenson> but chances are fair they won't need it
<Hugh_Bristic> can't teach an old dog new tricks
<Guest1> I'm going to freeze my brother against his will
<hkhenson> just don't get caught guest
<Kissinger> like the son of Ted Williams?
<hkhenson> :-)
<Guest1> 4I'm kidding!
<hkhenson> in fact, utn, you should broach it using ted williams
<hkhenson> just to see what he thinks about the whole thing
<hkhenson> is his wife still living?
<Utnapishtim> I wanna go to Fenway park in 2060 and watch Ted Williams while eating my $40 hot dog
<Hugh_Bristic> Utna: You signed up for freezing?
<Utnapishtim> Hkenson: Wife still living. He's german so the name of Ted Williams means nothign to him
<hkhenson> heinlein might have been frozen except for his wife
<Utnapishtim> I will soon
<hkhenson> don't know about that utn
<Kissinger> how much does it cost altogether??
<hkhenson> the news about ted was all over the world
<Utnapishtim> yes it was.
<Hugh_Bristic> Yeah. My wife would never go for it.
<hkhenson> chances are fair he saw it in the news
<Guest1> 1I have heard Germans are VERY tradition bound and conservative in ways which are just not conducive to cryonics.
<Utnapishtim> But the name doesn't mean anything
<hkhenson> alcor has some germans signed up
<Utnapishtim> He's not a household name. He is a weird amercian athlete who was frozen
<hkhenson> as a very old man utn
<hkhenson> you could bring up the story just to see how he feels about it.
<Hugh_Bristic> I wonder to what degree proximity to Alcor is a factor in signing up. It is one for me.
<Guest1> It is a factor in getting a good suspension!
<Guest1> : )
<hkhenson> you don't have to live there
<Hugh_Bristic> yep
<Utnapishtim> Hkenson: I KNOW my grandfather. I know he won't bite
<hkhenson> but it is a good idea to move there if you are terminal
<Utnapishtim> he has no interestin science for one
<hkhenson> ah, that's sad
<hkhenson> well, he might live long enough
<Utnapishtim> Its very sad
<Guest1> Utnap: So give it a try and tailor your approach to his interests and personality
<Hugh_Bristic> improves significantly the chances of preserving the vital info I would think
<hkhenson> anyway
<Utnapishtim> 93... you think?
<Guest1> if he loves family then focus on that
<hkhenson> there are people who live to 110
<hkhenson> that put it in the possible range
<Utnapishtim> who knows. He has great genes
<hkhenson> especially with money
<Utnapishtim> and he has the best medical attention money can buy
<Guest1> tell him Phoenix is a great place to vacation!
<Guest1> : )
<hkhenson> there are a few treatments right now that might well extend a person another 40 years
<Kissinger> really?
<hkhenson> telomerace
<Guest1> Utnap: So what is the net worth of your granddad's company?
<Utnapishtim> I don't want to really discuss that kinda thing sorry
<Kissinger> I have seen alot of guys at imminst say telomeres mean nothing or very little to stopping aging
<Guest1> I understand
<Utnapishtim> hold on I'll give you a link
<Utnapishtim> http://www.matthies.de/
<hkhenson> ah
<hkhenson> location in Hamberg
<Utnapishtim> The one thing that puts me off the whole idea of aging being as multifaceted a problem as some claim.. is that there are huge differences in lifespan between us and mammals who are genetically quite similiar
<Utnapishtim> yes
<hkhenson> I know someone there who is deeply involved with fighting the cult for the german government
<Utnapishtim> thats the main location
<Utnapishtim> but they are all over northern germmany
<hkhenson> ursula caberta
<Kissinger> yes, but damage proponents would argue that this is the result of certain species having antioxidentsm, etc
<Kissinger> better ways to prevent free radical damage
<Utnapishtim> if you click on the first link you can see all the locations
<Kissinger> not programmed termination
<hkhenson> utn, I presume you spend time there?
<Utnapishtim> hkenson: I think the germans are going about it in too heavyhanded a way
<Utnapishtim> yeah I spend quite a bit of time in hamburg
<hkhenson> might want to look her up just for fun.
<hkhenson> say you know me
<hkhenson> that would be very amusing
<Utnapishtim> ok I will!
<hkhenson> poor ursula!
<Utnapishtim> ursula Caberta
<hkhenson> yeah
<Utnapishtim> I'll google for her later
<hkhenson> she was a victim of a particularly vicious cult operation
<Guest1> ?
<hkhenson> in fact, more than one of them
<Utnapishtim> kissinger: What is your feeling
<Kissinger> on?
<Utnapishtim> have you read my post on wall street and the methuselah mouse?
<Utnapishtim> on the root causes of aginh
<Hugh_Bristic> link?
<Utnapishtim> hold on
<Kissinger> i am not sure, but I did check out methuselah mouse.
<Kissinger> i use to believe that aging was partly related to programming.
<Kissinger> now I am not so sure
<hkhenson> she had cosigned a loan.
<hkhenson> cult ruined the person with the loan
<hkhenson&g