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Leading Bioethicists to "Debate the Future"


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#1 Bruce Klein

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 08:45 PM


Leading Bioethicists to "Debate the Future" in Toronto


Posted Image
Margaret Somerville
Posted Image
James Hughes


Should we genetically engineer a better human mind and body? Should we use cloning to reproduce? Should we strive for radical life extension? Should we seek the benefits of nanotechnology despite the risks?


On Friday, August 29, 2003, members of the public can learn more about
these issues at "Debating the Future: Bioethics from Science Fiction to
Science Fact," an event organized by Betterhumans that is being held at
the J.J.R. MacLeod Auditorium at the University of Toronto. The event
coincides with the 61st World Science Fiction Convention, held this year
in Toronto.


The debate will feature Margaret Somerville, the founding director of the
Centre for Medicine, Ethics and Law at McGill University and the
internationally known author of The Ethical Canary: Science, Society and
the Human Spirit.


Somerville will be debating James Hughes, who teaches health policy at
Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut, is a leading thinker in
"transhuman" bioethics and is the author of Cyborg Democracy: Free, Equal and United in the Posthuman World, to be published in 2004.


Moderating the debate will be journalist Tim Falconer, author of Watchdogs and Gadflies: Activism from Marginal to Mainstream, a book about Canadian activists.

Tickets to the event are $20 in advance and $25 at the door (all figures
Canadian). Attendees will receive an information-packed booklet providing background on each of the issues.

To purchase tickets and learn more about the event, including media
coverage and sponsorship opportunities, visit
http://www.betterhum...ing_the_Future/.

#2 Bruce Klein

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Posted 06 August 2003 - 06:59 AM

Culture Is Wedded to Nature
James Hughes is wrong to sever the cultural from the natural, argues bioethicist Margaret Somerville in defending heterosexual marriage

Posted Image

Margaret Somerville
Special to Betterhumans
Monday, August 04, 2003, 7:09:06 AM CT

Complex relationship: "Nature and culture are not necessarily in conflict," says bioethicist Margaret Somerville. "Marriage is the cultural complement to the biological reality of procreation"

"We must overcome the tyranny of the natural and build human institutions that serve human needs," believes James Hughes. Rather, I believe, we must seek to understand the natural (that, after all, is the primary goal of science) in order to be able to respect and protect life in all its forms and diversity.

In his recent column "Beyond Gay Marriage," Hughes disparages my defense of heterosexual marriage as an example of how conservative bioethics idolizes "the natural over the reasonable."

Human institutions severed from a deep understanding and accommodation of the natural, especially of human nature, have a potential for great harm, even evil. We need both nature and culture, the latter of which includes reason and science.

Complete Article

#3 lordprovost

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Posted 25 August 2003 - 06:07 AM

She obviously never owned a gay dog [!] [lol]

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#4 Bruce Klein

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 09:54 AM

How perfect do we want to be?

In seeking immortality and other godlike attributes, we risk our very humanity, says ethicist MARGARET SOMERVILLE

By MARGARET SOMERVILLE
Friday, August 29, 2003 - Page A15


You know what a humanist is. What about a transhumanist or posthumanist? It wasn't until after Simon Smith, the Toronto-based editor-in-chief of BetterHumans, persuaded me to debate American transhumanist James Hughes, that I spent some time exploring this new worldview.

"Transhumanists" (Google gives 15,100 hits for the term) believe that the info-bio-nano-robotic-AI (artificial intelligence) technology revolutions will converge to alter the fundamental nature of being human. We and all our most important values and beliefs will be changed beyond present recognition.

For transhumanists, being human is not the end of evolution, but the beginning. Technoscience provides them with a strong "No" to the existential question, "Is this all there is?" Transhumanists are techno-utopians. They want to do good -- as they put it, to expand technological opportunities for humans to live longer and healthier lives and to enhance their intellectual, physical, psychological and emotional capacities.

That sounds fine.

Complete Article

#5 Bruce Klein

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 09:59 AM

The human condition hurts: We'd be fools not to better it

If we can cure disease and slow down aging, it would be unethical not to, says transhumanist JAMES HUGHES

By JAMES HUGHES
Friday, August 29, 2003 - Page A15



The year is 1943, and Mary Hunt has just found a nice mouldy cantaloupe at her supermarket in Peoria, Ill. Responding to an appeal from antibiotics researchers at the local government laboratory, she turns it in. The cantaloupe is covered with a robust new strain of penicillin, which can be grown in industrial-sized tanks, making it possible to mass produce and save millions of lives.

But wait. Emerging from time portals to the 21st century, legions of anxious activists descend on the lab.

Fundamentalist preachers inveigh against penicillin as an effort to play God, and save lives that God clearly intended to gather to heaven. Radical environmentalists descend, chanting the precautionary-principle mantra: No technology should ever be used until we understand all of its long-term consequences for human health and the environment. Deep ecologists warn that antibiotics will facilitate factory farming of animals, and leech into the environment. Eventually bacteria will evolve past our antibiotic defences, and become dangerous superbugs.

And anti-technology leftists insist that penicillin will exacerbate social inequality, allowing pharmaceutical corporations to reap mega-profits. Only the rich will be able to afford the drug, and they will use it strategically to disenfranchise women and people of colour. Since infectious disease is the principal killer of soldiers, antibiotics will facilitate war and could even lead to the creation of terrible new weapons of mass destruction.

Even if penicillin had been under such attack, we probably would still have produced it, and because of these attacks, we might have avoided some of our mistakes. But hindsight is 20-20, and all we knew in the 1940s was that millions of lives could be saved. Thanks to penicillin, they were. Along the way, we dealt with the problems that arose.

Complete Article

#6 Utnapishtim

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 12:54 AM

What would we do with about bioethicists to guide us all through these morally troublesome waters????

Seriously though...

What exactly does being a 'leading bioethicist' mean anyway? That your ideas are more considered/wellthought out than those of lesser bioethicists? That you have more politicians wrapped tound your finger? That you collect a bigger paycheck. More media quotations? A fatter book deal? Greater popularity? Superior academic qualifications? More papers published? I wish they would provide some criterion here. I dislike the implied pedestal the word 'leading' places the subject referred to on in this context. I feel it encourages mindless deferrence to received authority. It also implies a level of excellence in thought. This is for me to judge, not for someone else to claim and clumsily coat in a veneer of objective fact.

#7 Bruce Klein

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Posted 03 September 2003 - 01:31 AM

Well, the 'Leading' part was probably the words of the Betterhumans' staff and not the bioethicists themselves.

http://www.betterhum...ing_the_Future/

So, you might be responding more to the media package than anything else. Of course, you're free to project your own judgment - thank goodness. ;)

#8 bitster

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 03:28 AM

I find debates like this miss a good deal of relevance.

They tend to speak of "we" as if all of science and industry are an indivisible whole, with only one decision to make. This is patently bogus. In order to give credibility to this kind of public debate, one must first demonstrate the ability to enforce such a "universal" decision. Whether such an ability or willingness exists (or should exist) should be the center of debate - not the ethical arguments for making such decisions.

So long as there is no overwhelming consensus favoring relinquishment - and there does not appear to be one - there will be more than enough interest and resources to develop future technologies. If we've seen anything in cases where some innovate while others refuse, it's this: the innovators will own you.

Nothing short of totalitarian control would be able to effect an effective relinquishment strategy.

#9 samualt

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 08:56 AM

This is why we should never tell the "world" about an actual elixer vitae. I don't believe the average human is intelligent enough to handle it. If they wish to grow old and die because of their archaic and infantile beliefs then let them! Tell them and they will ruin it for us also.

#10 Utnapishtim

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 09:21 AM

I'd love to see the same effort devoted to debating the feasibility of life extension and related technologies as is devoted to ethical handwringing

#11 kevin

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Posted 06 September 2003 - 09:55 PM

As it stands, if the average person has even a glint of hope that they might avoid the debilitations that arise from old age disease, they will stampede towards it... and no amount of bioethics will stop it. I think that this response may be more problematic than anything that might arise from those who advocate putting the brakes on progress.

#12 chubtoad

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 08:01 PM

Bioethicists have been able to do little to stop technology in the past, and I doubt that will change in the near future.

#13 Lazarus Long

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Posted 12 September 2003 - 08:17 PM

Bioethicists have bean able to do little to stop technology in the past, and I doubt that will change in the near future.


If only this were true. The science and methodologies of Transfusing blood were held up at least two centuries because of the repressive interference from the church along with numerous aspects of later genetic theory and even the use of antiseptics from entrenched "experts" and "ethicists" that fervently resisted change.

After the conquest of the New World a vast quantity of medical codices were burned by the Church destroying for centuries knowledge of surgical techniques, anatomical understanding, and potential pharmacological agents derived from a serious empirical study that had been done since Olemcan times on plants and humans in the Americas.

The history of the progress of science demonstrates that the vilification of new theories has been more the norm than the exception until very recently and never forget why Da Vinci wrote all his journals in mirrored script; he was afraid of being branded a witch or sorcerer and burned for heresy.

In its panic at its current loss of respect the Church is turning to ever more repressive membership as they are the zealous bulwark of the faithful that sustain these institutions in such ties but it often manifests itself in the worst types of repressive legislation and violence. BTW, when I say church I am using it generically not for just the Judeo-Christian west.

The main reason Tibetan Buddhism can be said to be in a current phase of enlightenment is in no small measure due to the character of the Dalai Lama that is very interested in serious science personally as well as a true student f technology in his own right. But he is clearly the exception proving the rule on a global scale.

#14 chubtoad

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Posted 13 September 2003 - 04:15 AM

True lazarus. Many ethicists are religous lawyers fighting for things that are often not even explicitly denied by their religous text. I do believe, however, that with the internet information will spread very quickly and there will be countries where the research is perfectly legal(not that it has to be legal to get done). When I said ethicists havent bean able to stop advances they objected to in the past I'm talking about things like cloning, lab fertilization, abortions, high risk surgery, genetic engeneering in animals. They may be able to stop these in some places in the future but the groundwork has already been laid.

#15 Sophianic

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 12:11 PM

Open Letters to Professor Margaret Somerville
(Posted in their entirety, with BJKlein's permission)

Dear Professor Somerville,

Please accept my warmest of cyber-handshakes. Your recent debate with Dr. Hughes at the University of Toronto was enlightening and worthwhile. I followed the exchange with considerable interest, as have my fellow Immortality Institute (ImmInst) colleagues.

Some members have expressed an interest in asking you questions about your views on physical immortality. I hope that you haven't yet become disengaged from the topic. If not, then perhaps you would consider a proposal for an online exchange for mutual benefit. ImmInst members would no doubt benefit from your answers, and you may also benefit by coming to see how immortalists arrive at their way of thinking.

If you're open to such a proposal, please reply to me (bjk@imminst.org) and I’ll send you details on how such an exchange would take place. To find out more about me, feel free to go here: http://www.bjklein.com, and to find out more about the Immortality Institute, please go here: http://www.imminst.org/about

Sincerely,

Bruce J. Klein
Founder & Chairman
Immortality Institute For Infinite Lifespans
http://www.imminst.org

Postscript: below, please find a letter from "Sophianic," one of our members, in response to your Globe & Mail article, How Perfect Do We Want to Be?; it provides some food for thought for an online exchange.

--
September 15, 2003

Dear Professor Somerville,

In your article, How Perfect Do We Want to Be?, published August 29, 2003 on page A15 of the Globe & Mail, Canada's National Newspaper, you raised some heartfelt objections to the "transhumanist" enterprise. Although I would not call myself a "transhumanist," I do have sympathies with those who do. As anyone who knows them will tell you, they represent diverse points of view on many different subjects relevant to the concept of "transhumanity."

Your deepest concern with "transhumanism" lies in the prefix "trans." You correctly imply that education and culture are two important humanistic methods in relation to the future development of human nature. You concede that this relationship is important "to expand technological opportunities for humans to live longer and healthier lives and to enhance their intellectual, physical, psychological and emotional capacities." I think you would also agree that our technology is both a means and a product of education and culture, that our technology is generally growing in sophistication, and that the rate of progress in technology is beginning to accelerate.

You make several points regarding our relationship with human nature: (1) that it deserves our profound respect; (2) that we have strong justification for interfering with it; and (3) that we take care not to change it radically so as to destroy its essence. But what is the essence of human nature? If human nature encapsulates the common qualities of all human beings, then the essence of human nature must represent a subset of those qualities that we hold most precious. But which ones? And why those? In my attempt to answer these questions, and apply them to your points on human nature, I invite you to ask yourself four deceptively simple, but profoundly important, questions:

1. How long do I want to live?
2. How perfect do I want to be?
3. How much do I want to know?
4. What is my central purpose in life?

When you reflect on these questions, I want you to imagine what it would be like to have no expectation of limits in your answers to the first three questions. To wit ...

How long do I want to live? I have no expectation that I will ever die. In other words, I keep open the possibility that I will forever secure the means to extend my life long enough to apply the next best method in life and health extension technology.

How perfect do I want to be? I have no expectation that I will ever be perfect in every way possible. In other words, I stay open to the promise of possibility itself ~ that there will always be room for improvement, for expansion, for enhancement.

How much do I want to know? I have no expectation that I will ever know everything there is to know. In other words, I remain forever open to an infinite process of learning more through experience, skill acquisition and personal cultivation.

A central purpose, tailored to your own needs and desires, governed by your own values and choices, completes the picture and provides a guide to those answers that (ideally) would bring balance, motivation and persistence over the long haul. I find balance in what I come to know (and experience); I find motivation in how I choose to perfect myself ~ through excellence that I earn, through cultural refinement or through a general sense of completion; and I find persistence in how long I choose to live.

Purpose. Balance. Motivation. Persistence. Together, in harmony, they constitute a powerful basis for human progress and perfectibility in the pursuit of immortality. But in light of this foundation, what does it mean, in essence, to be human? If we strive to improve ourselves, augment ourselves, enhance ourselves, to be ever more perfect through our technology, will the results of that striving threaten the essence of who we are, i.e., our deepest sense of what it means to be human?

In your article, you raise more than several important questions that "transhumanists" would be remiss if they did not make any serious, concerted attempt to address: would life without death affect our ability to find meaning in life? Would life without death be something other than human? Would the conquest of death foster social and economic divisions? Would the conquest of death strip away the mysteries of life and death?

I submit that to be human is to be humane ~ to register concern in response to pain, to feel compassion in response to suffering, to show courage in response to the threat of death. To be humane requires (1) a modicum of pain and suffering, no matter how well off we may be, to prevent a fatal slide into complacency, and (2) the threat of death generally, to encourage a sense of urgency, no matter how advanced we choose to become through our technology. With respect to the first, I do not mean pain and suffering that we bring upon ourselves, and with respect to the second, I do not mean the threat of immediate death. To be human is to be humane, but in light of our growing technology, to be humane may some day prove to be something other than human. In light of these requirements, and with respect to your article, I will now address the questions posed.

First, would the conquest of death strip away the mysteries of life and death? Obviously, yes. Doing away with the alternative between life and death would be the death of us all. With no sense of urgency, the slide into complacency would be a foregone conclusion. The beauty of mystery in life (in relation to the threat of death, whether physical or psychological) would also die within us. As you suggest, we would do well not to turn every mystery into a problem to be solved through technology. We can be thankful that we are not so powerful that we can conquer every contigency that threatens life.

Here's a better question: would the pursuit of immortality necessarily strip away the mysteries of life and death? Obviously, no. Inherent in any pursuit is the risk of failure, the risk of death, both of which must be managed with the appropriate concern and with the necessary choices. In treating aging as a disease, for example, we do a grave disservice to those who, for whatever their reasons, wish to remain on a trajectory toward a natural death. Not everyone is willing to endure the risk of failure in the pursuit of immortality. I think you would agree that aging is a condition of nature, not a disease. But if biological aging were to be eliminated once and for all, we would no longer be susceptible to the effects of psychological aging. Through a process of maturity without physical decline, we would all better appreciate the interplay between life and death in all of its mystery, but also feel less inclined to surrender ourselves to a natural death.

Second, would the conquest of death foster social and economic divisions? Instead, let us ask: would the pursuit of healthy life extension foster social and economic divisions? At first? Possibly, yes ~ that is, if we were to stick our heads into the sand ostrich-like, and neglect to prepare for the prospect of radical life extension. In the long term? Probably not. Healthy life extension might become as mundane and affordable as getting a booster shot at a doctor's office. But then again, perhaps the methods of healthy life extension will at first reflect graduated levels of increasing sophistication and efficacy, not unlike the varieties of economy and luxury cars that we see in the lots of car dealerships. At this point, circa 2003, we just don't know. What we do know is that the human aging process involves more than several layers of systemic failure, and that multiple methods of rejuvenation will likely be required to address each of those layers. Eventually, however, the number and quality of methods to extend healthy life would likely concentrate into a one or two shot deal through genetic and nanomedical methods.

As you implied in your article, a consequence of dramatic healthy life extension is more time. More time means more time to explore and examine ways of effecting change to who and what we are as human beings. In particular, some of the physically challenged among us are looking keenly to a future where such change is not only possible, but routine and positive. In spite of my own healthy and whole body, I would not want to impose my views of what the physically disabled and disfigured should or should not pursue with respect to the possibilities of "transhumanity." My own bias is that they seek to "normalize" their bodies and brains naturally, seeking organic solutions to their difficulties in appearance and mobility. But as I said, I would not want to impose that bias on anyone. If I were to become disabled or disfigured, I might change my mind about "normalization."

The point I want to make here is that informed individuals (and individuals representing groups) are the best judges of what is best for them. As technology advances, we will have many more options to modify, augment and enhance who and what we are ~ physically and mentally. An authoritarian attitude and a utilitarian approach to making decisions (i.e., imposing the greatest good on the greatest number) has always been, and always will be, a poor substitute for the opportunity of informed consent between and among individuals. In my view, the best way to prevent social and economic divisions is to nip them in the bud by letting individuals make their own decisions about what is best for them and their group affiliations. If a conflict should arise, then let that be an opportunity for them to learn tolerance and respect.

Third, would life without death be something other than human, as Leon Kass suggests? Absolutely. If it were at all possible to eliminate (broadly speaking) the alternative between life and death, we would all cease to be human ~ and humane. But in a universe that will forever have "the unknown" as one of its salient features, and that requires from us eternal vigilance against all threats to life, Kass' suggestion amounts to a straw man. If some decided to transform themselves into digital equivalents, or beyond human recognition, they would no longer have any reason to be human, and may no longer have any reason to be humane. But again, individuals (and individuals representing groups) are, and will continue to be, the prime movers in what they decide to do with themselves and their lives as technology advances in tandem with education and culture. As long as individual persons, no matter what their form, remain subordinate to the rights that would respect individual autonomy (and ensure the protection of those rights through law), the freedom for some to transform themselves in the ways I indicated should be upheld, regardless of any bias anyone may have toward preserving what is natural and what is human. In this view, mistakes will be made, lives will be affected, pain and suffering may ensue, but the alternative is far worse: a static and stagnant society stifled by precautionary principles enforced by a tyranny of the few ~ or the many.

Fourth, would life without death affect our ability to find meaning in life? A better question would be: would life without the inevitability of death adversely affect our ability to find meaning in life? I would say "no." Such a life would positively affect our ability to acquire additional meaning in life, but it would not (necessarily) affect it negatively. The choice to seek and find meaning in life would remain with you, the individual. A central purpose in life that removed the constraints on how long I want to live, on how perfect I want to be, on how much I want to know (and experience), and that guided me toward a vision of fulfillment (for myself and others), would stand me in good stead over hundreds, if not thousands, of years. I would still suffer, but in ways far more subtle than what you might typically associate with suffering. I would still be concerned for my life, with the threat of death generally, and still feel an appropriate sense of urgency. I would still care about others, not just "similar others," even if I were to transform myself gradually and radically beyond recognition over a period of, say, several thousand years.

Immortal, in this world of space and time, mass and energy, information and consciousness, does not mean deathless; it means the potential for animate, sentient, intelligent, (...) life without end. As we become wiser, more intelligent and more powerful in our abilities to handle technology with respect to education and culture, the pursuit of immortality in this world becomes central to who and what we are. I grant you, without a balanced perspective on progress and perfectibility in the pursuit of immortality, we live in danger of becoming obsessed with the quest. To help prevent passion for the quest from becoming obsession with death, I respectfully suggest that you (and others like you) stop treating the prospect of immortality as if it were a threat. I kindly suggest that you broaden your perspective, balance it in light of what I have written here, and then start looking more closely at the many positive consequences that would flow from a life without end in this world.

At the Immortality Institute (www.imminst.org), we are dedicated to doing just that.

Cordially,
Sophianic

--
So far, no response yet from Professor Somerville to the invitation ...

#16 Lazarus Long

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Posted 03 October 2003 - 01:24 PM

Very nicely done Soph [!]

An excellent essay in its own right and a challenge that I suspect will more and more be impossible for the opposition to ignore and we need to prepare ourselves well in anticipation of a more public forum of debate.

As a single note regarding the substance of the "psychology of senescence" (calling psych substance may be an oxymoron in itself that should be overlooked for this discussion :)) ) you say:

But if biological aging were to be eliminated once and for all, we would no longer be susceptible to the effects of psychological aging. Through a process of maturity without physical decline, we would all better appreciate the interplay between life and death in all of its mystery, but also feel less inclined to surrender ourselves to a natural death.


I do not agree with this conclusion as proposed because I suggest the "psychology of aging" is a process of maturation predicated on the cumulative aspect of experience. But I also do not agree with the capture argument made prior that aging is not a disease but that is a separate issue and not relevant to the position I am about to outline.

To be more specific I do agree that the "psychological process" with respect to "how we mature" must inevitably be impacted by such a dramatic alteration of our life expectancy (history shows it already has). I see "longevity" as causative for a "qualitative change" not indicative of an elimination of susceptibility.

Such a qualitative change can have both positive and negative consequences and these we have actually discussed at length among ourselves here in the forum. I am confident however that the positive opportunities can be demonstrated such that they can far outweigh any potential or imagined hazards.

This is a minor distinction actually between yours and my own philosophical perspectives but a possible "Achilles heel" in your argument were the position one that was introduced in debate and you were unprepared for it.

I only raise the point to encourage preparation, for it is a parry that the opposition might make and in so doing leave themselves open to a rejoining thrust to the exposed vulnerability they have created by attacking this area and turning a weakness of the above argument into a "feint," thus exposing a qualitative comparison of the pitfalls of the current approach in comparison to the profound opportunity presented by longer cumulative experience as a quality of maturation leads to a larger global population of wiser, saner, more educated minds, with broader experience, bringing this character of "knowledgeable reasonableness" to global problems that have thus far failed to accomplish resolution as they often learn too late of the errors of theirs ways to correct their "immature" approaches.

This may be seen as a positive aspect of the qualitatively altered state of the psychology of senescence. Consider the example of Sharon and Arafat, two desperate, hateful and legacy minded "Old Men" hell bent on completing their agendas either in their desperately shortening lifespans, or to use their deaths as a manipulative political device for promoting their policy.

This is only one of the paradigmatic examples of what is worst about the current state of affairs as the traditionalists are so fond of calling "human". There are many more that actually can be prepared as exposing the fallacy of the parochial doctrines we are facing.

#17 Sophianic

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Posted 04 October 2003 - 11:18 PM

I suggest the "psychology of aging" is a process of maturation predicated on the cumulative aspect of experience.

The term "aging" contains a curious ambiguity. On the one hand, it implies a decline in function ("getting old"); on the other, it implies, as you indicate, a process of maturation ("ripen with time or experience").

I also do not agree with the capture argument made prior that aging is not a disease but that is a separate issue and not relevant to the position I am about to outline.


At one time, I did view aging as a disease. My concern now is that if we treat aging as a disease, rather than a condition, we risk putting undue public pressure on those who would prefer to age gracefully or "successfully" on their way to a natural death (which, I think, should remain an option for those who wish to exercise it).

I do agree that the "psychological process" with respect to "how we mature" must inevitably be impacted by such a dramatic alteration of our life expectancy (history shows it already has).  I see "longevity" as causative for a "qualitative change" not indicative of an elimination of susceptibility.

My difficulty with this is that with a future ability to up-regulate and down-regulate our hormone levels (in particular, hGH), our susceptibility to being mentally affected by a decline in physical function would eventually lose much of its relevance. Our levels of maturity could be decreased or increased at will so that I might decide to experience the mind and body of an 18 year-old for a period of time, and then gradually raise my level of maturity to that of a 60 year-old with voluntary and corresponding decreases in physical capacity (knowing full well that I could start to make myself look and feel younger again at any time). In playing with this ability to age and grow younger at will, I gain a fuller perspective and appreciation of what it means to age, of what it means to be young, but without the susceptibility to a death wish that people in their seventies, eighties or nineties might experience as they gradually lose their vim and vigor (with no solid hope of ever becoming young again).

Such a qualitative change can have both positive and negative consequences and these we have actually discussed at length among ourselves here in the forum.  I am confident however that the positive opportunities can be demonstrated such that they can far outweigh any potential or imagined hazards.

I can appreciate what you're saying here, but again, without the linear perspective of aging (i.e., because of an ability to modulate hormones to become younger and older at will), this issue may altogether lose its relevance. Of course, it might be argued that even becoming older and younger at will would "age" you (i.e., ripen you) psychologically. Perhaps, but I still don't think it would necessarily make you ever more wary or weary with time.

This is a minor distinction actually between yours and my own philosophical perspectives but a possible "Achilles heel" in your argument were the position one that was introduced in debate and you were unprepared for it.

I appreciate the thrust of your argument, and now feel a little more prepared to parry and lunge. Nice metaphor, by the way (I used to fence Varsity at one time) ...

#18 Lazarus Long

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Posted 05 October 2003 - 12:17 AM

As I said we can agree to disagree on the Aging as disease issue because for one thing it is more an issue of perception than substance. t also does not appear to be a hinge pin element of your argument either and if taking the position you have makes the presentation more palatable to many than this is sufficient grounds for accepting our differences and moving on.

The qualitative aspect as you allude to is the relationship of "cumulative" versus "linear" experience. A debate about relativistic time and neuropathology, also "what constitutes me" is not germane actually to the issue of cumulative experience as a valid criteria of "maturation". Maturation psychology is an issue and I do not think it is necessarily bad.

I also think that the rosy scenario of the future that you propose is one I might look forward to but I suspect we will take the shortest linear route to achieve it. :))

What is most likely in the near term is a continuation of the linear aging process at best retarded and/or stalled at various points while continuity of experience will largely remain "linear" for most people(as they understand it now). This certainly has been the case for the period of the 20th Century's profound impact on life expectancy and I suspect a serious model for longevity in relation to social behavior will show that we are already perceiving effects from the prolongation of life now. Assuredly we can expect these effects to be magnified and not reduced as the potential for our early successes become realized.

With this in mind I feel we must present the "Social Maturation" issue as an argument actually in our favor rather than the one that we can expect our opponents to cast. I suspect that when we take away risk aversion, tenacious hatreds, and aspects of inflexibility that most people associate with older people that in fact living knowledge of history and "life experience for larger and larger surviving populations holds promise of helping rather than hindering a move toward a rational and more mutually respectful society.

#19 Sophianic

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 12:06 AM

The qualitative aspect as you allude to  is the relationship of "cumulative" versus "linear" experience.  A debate about relativistic time and neuropathology, also "what constitutes me" is not germane actually to the issue of cumulative experience as a valid criteria of "maturation".  Maturation psychology is an issue and I do not think it is necessarily bad.

I'm not convinced that cumulative experience by itself (whether linear or not) is a valid criterion of maturation. In conjunction with other characteristics, perhaps, but not by itself. Wisdom, for example, does not come simply from experience, although a vast accumulation of experience can certainly have a strong bearing on whether someone acquires a great deal of wisdom. A person with a great deal of experience is not immune to falling prey to foolish behavior, for example.

I also think that the rosy scenario of the future that you propose is one I might look forward to but I suspect we will take the shortest linear route to achieve it.

I didn't intend to make it sound rosy ~ just another one among hundreds of ways we can assume control of our destinies in the quest for immortality. We might arrive at this scenario in a linear fashion ~ or should we say "in an exponential fashion"?

What is most likely in the near term is a continuation of the linear aging process at best retarded and/or stalled at various points while continuity of experience will largely remain "linear" for most people (as they understand it now).

I wouldn't expect the psychological effects of my scenario to come about any time soon (it would, after all, take at least half a century to observe any effects). As I hinted above, the exponential nature of progress might put a strain on our perception of "a linear aging process" (or eliminate it altogether).

With this in mind I feel we must present the "Social Maturation" issue as an argument actually in our favor rather than the one that we can expect our opponents to cast.  I suspect that when we take away risk aversion, tenacious hatreds, and aspects of inflexibility that most people associate with older people that in fact living knowledge of history and "life experience for larger and larger surviving populations holds promise of helping rather than hindering a move toward a rational and more mutually respectful society.

By "social maturation," I think you mean a greater collective wisdom owing, at least in part, to a broader base of experience ~ both contemporary and historical. Dramatic healthy life extension and cumulative experience may be necessary conditions for a rise in "social maturation," but I don't see them as sufficient for providing a hedge against risk aversion or tenacious hatreds (for example). Also, psychological aging associated either with a decline in function or a ripening of experience is not necessarily correlative with risk aversion or tenacious hatred. I'm sure you've met some very sweet old persons, or risk-takers who have passed their 100th birthday.

#20 Lazarus Long

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 12:41 AM

I'm not convinced that cumulative experience by itself (whether linear or not) is a valid criterion of maturation. In conjunction with other characteristics, perhaps, but not by itself. Wisdom, for example, does not come simply from experience, although a vast accumulation of experience can certainly have a strong bearing on whether someone acquires a great deal of wisdom. A person with a great deal of experience is not immune to falling prey to foolish behavior, for example.


I agree with this and would have said so were I not so rushed at the moment but the argument remains as cumulative experience relates to the "total character" of wisdom from at a minimum aspect one of the "survival perspective" and as a maximum one that combines education with compassion and opportunity.

Often the foolish behavior that older, more experienced people fall prey too is that of fixed beliefs that make them unprepared for changing environmental stresses both physically and socially.

By "social maturation," I think you mean a greater collective wisdom owing, at least in part, to a broader base of experience ~ both contemporary and historical. Dramatic healthy life extension and cumulative experience may be necessary conditions for a rise in "social maturation," but I don't see them as sufficient for providing a hedge against risk aversion or tenacious hatreds (for example). Also, psychological aging associated either with a decline in function or a ripening of experience is not necessarily correlative with risk aversion or tenacious hatred. I'm sure you've met some very sweet old persons, or risk-takers who have passed their 100th birthday.


Yes, I would include the famous examples of the ninety years olds that take up sky diving for the first time and my own Gaga that had me fly her around Jackson county at treetop level so she should could enjoy the sights. She told me she hadn't been up in a small plane since a "barn stormer" had come to the county fair in the late 1920"s before she had gone off to school at Columbia Teachers College and that she had been too unprepared for the experience of flying in an old Jenny with an open cockpit.

I suspect that you and I are looking at different faces of the same coin but as an "eternal pragmatist" I am concerned about the immediate impact of the technology and overcoming the "risk aversion" of the resistant Luddite mindset. As the subsequent decades unfold I will seek solutions to the net problem of complacency but for the moment I think the risk is still significant that we won't get that far. And the risk is higher for someone my age.

Nevertheless I suspect that as a "larger percentage of total population" reaches a chance of becoming wiser that we will see qualitatively different behavioral strategies from society as a whole. Again we have precedent to suspect this from an historical analysis.

#21 Sophianic

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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:29 PM

I am concerned about the immediate impact of the technology and overcoming the "risk aversion" of the resistant Luddite mindset.  As the subsequent decades unfold I will seek solutions to the net problem of complacency but for the moment I think the risk is still significant that we won't get that far.  And the risk is higher for someone my age.

In dealing with groups, we must learn to use the strategies of influence (see book suggestion 1 below) and make concerted and strategic appeals to (a) optimal health ~ "look and feel your best", (b) successful aging ~ "look and feel good, even at your age", and [c) modest gains in healthy life extension past the current maximum human life span ~ "you can live to be 130, 140, 150 in good health."

In dealing with individuals, we must learn to "sell to concept" (see book suggestion 2 below), i.e., sell to an individual's solution image, to his/her solution of what consitutes health, personal desirability and successful aging, especially to those who would resist any of the above appeals. And we must introduce these appeals in a graduated and sensitive fashion (a, b, c ~ in that order), without overwhelming anyone's cognition of what those appeals might signify for them personally, without treating aging as a disease, and without slapping labels on people because of their resistance.

To these ends, I highly recommend the following ...

1. Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion (Cialdini)
2. The New Conceptual Selling (Haiman and Sanchez)

#22 icyT

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 03:04 PM

I have a problem with people who make careers out of thinking they know more about ethics than everyone else. Sure, perhaps more than the average person, but no matter how many papers you write, or degrees you get, ethics are often a personal thing that vary, and indeed, are biased even up until the upper echelon.

Margaret Sommerville's article (though I can't read it all, Globe and Mail wants money) seems to dictate that it is... unnatural? I hate this whole 'natural'-worship. It's not naturalism, surely, nore naturism (another word for nudism) so I'm not sure what to call it, but it's spreading like a sickly disease these days.

Death is natural. Rape is natural. Starvation is natural. Evolution is natural, and indeed, quite brutal. We can learn much from it, marvel at the beauty of it's brutal efficiency, but the day of man evolving by death should be over. We will evolve by our own science, learning, and engineering. These are extensions of us, and thus natural too. The difference is that they are new.

All new things carry risks, surely, and this is no different. Atom bombs, antibiotic-resistant bacteria, chemical warfare, sure. So what? They're risks that happen when people gain knowledge, because knowledge is power. We must simply work to manage them, and stay the course.

If we just sit in the past, then the ways of the past will continue, and we will die. I'd rather risk a new and strange death at the prospect of immortality than succumb to the (perhaps less immediate threat) of assured natural death, because no human has yet escaped it.

I give more credence to those of the anti-immortality party who actually think it's impossible, too complicated, or whatever. These are legitimate concerns, and I want them next to us all the way, because damnit, science is about being skeptical and looking at everything. No better way to catch all the points than to have someone trying to tear your argument down every step of the way.

But... ethics? Screw ethics, there is nothing worse that can happen to anyone than dying, and indeed everyone will as we currently are. I care for the next generation too, sure, but would prefer to work to be able to be around to see it, and protect it, and teach it, and they would share the fate of death we do not fight now.

#23 DJS

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 04:09 AM

Wow, now that is quite a bump, tyciol. [lol]




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