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Suda's cat brain experiments


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#1 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 26 October 2006 - 10:44 PM


After finally being able to get hold of a copy of Suda's original papers on this (this is incredibly difficult for some reason - especially since my university only has access to articles from 1995 and later) i'm finding it a little confusing why people often quote it as good evidence for the viability of cryonics.

It seems that after 7 years of storage, the EEG upon revival became more and more chaotic until eventually degrading. The graphs in Suda's paper reminded me of the forerunner to a major seizure. It is encouraging that some tissue did survive and had some level of activity but the total neural chaos that followed is quite discouraging.

Would I be correct in theorising that inadequate structural preservation essentially caused the brain's wiring to become highly disturbed and thus produce this random activity?

I'd be interested to hear some thoughts on this from someone more knowledgable.

#2 bgwowk

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 12:29 AM

I explain Suda's experiments and their limitations in the latter part of this video:

http://video.google....9858&q=cryonics

Suda's experiments are not directly relevant to cryonics as currently practiced because Suda used much less cryoprotectant, and cooled to high sub-zero, not deep sub-zero, temperatures. At a temperature of only -20 degC, the cells surviving between ice crystals would still be in a liquid state in a freeze-concentrated glycerol solution. Because the cells are not in a solid state (not below the "glass transition" temperature), chemical deterioration still occurs. The viability of tissue degrades over years. But he was still able to get some return of electrical activity even after 5 years of storage.

If he cooled to lower temperatures with the concentration of glycerol he used, he could still recover "unit" (cell) function, but not integrated EEG of the whole brain. Too much ice forms at low temperatures, disrupting long-range tissue connections. If he had increased the glycerol concentration to reduce ice damage at deep sub-zero temperatures, he would have found it to be toxic. It's the infamous ice-damage vs. toxicity-damage tradeoff of cryobiology.

Present brain vitrification technology still cannot preserve viability in the conventional sense. It is not possible to rewarm brains cryopreserved with current technology, perfuse them with blood, and recover EEGs as Suda did. If that were possible, that would be reversible brain preservation, the Holy Grail of cryonics. Unfortuately we are not there yet. What is being achieved now is hopefully enough preservation of structure and chemistry to avoid "information theoretic death." In other words, hopefully the damage that is occuring is not erasing memory. If so, then restoration to full health while recovering the original person is doable in principle with foreseeable technology.

Cryonicists talk about Suda's experiments because they show in a very extreme way that brain function can be recovered in actuality, not just in theory, if chemistry and structure is preserved sufficiently well. In other words they show that brains can be "turned off and then back on," even after days or more stored in a freezer. We already know that's possible according to laws of physics, but few people respond to purely rational arguments about these things. I know a medical doctor cryonicist who knows more physics than the average physicist. What got him into cryonics? He saw dogs lie clinically dead on a table for four hours packed in ice like cold meat, and then later revived to full health. Even if not directly relevant to cryonics, such experiments address on a gut level one the deepest instinctive objections to cryonics: The fallacious belief that life is function, not structure.

#3 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 04:33 AM

A question - is it possible with current technology at all to get any electrical activity at all from brain tissue taken down to cryogenic temperatures?

I believe you have summed up the problem fairly well in stating that the problem is the tradeoff between toxicity and ice damage.

#4 bgwowk

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 05:39 AM

A question - is it possible with current technology at all to get any electrical activity at all from brain tissue taken down to cryogenic temperatures?

Tissue, yes. CI's cryobiologist has claimed to have done it back at his old lab in Ukraine, and I am aware of other unpublished experiments that I'm not at liberty to discuss. Nobody has tried whole brains since Suda, but that's because it is not expected to work with current technology. That may be too pessimistic, and I expect the issue will be revisted in coming years. As I argued at the recent Alcor conference, better quality brain preservation until it is reversible, not optimization of whole body vitrification, should be job #1 for cryonics research.

#5 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 27 October 2006 - 11:37 AM

An idea perhaps - if slices can be reversibly vitrified, perhaps if the slices can be somehow reconnected after revival we need not worry about reversibly vitrifying the whole brain at once.

#6 bgwowk

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 07:41 PM

You first. :)

#7 garethnelsonuk

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Posted 30 October 2006 - 08:48 PM

The idea does sound rather insane but if you think about it current methods have several problems of which fracturing accidentally is only one. If a form of fracturing was the only problem it would make things a lot simpler.




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