33 replies to this topic

[chipdouglas]

I used to have much anxiety--I say use cause for about 3 weeks to a month, I'm doing so much better, and also for those who have seen my post on other boards on low sex drive, this is now a thing of the past, since as it is very obvious anxiety can totally kill one's sex drive. So since my anxiety has lowered noticeably, and that I feel more cheerful, motivated and active, my sex drive has made a strong come back, which further relieved anxiety connected with it being absent.


Now, I used mainly 5-HTP to control my anxiety and it's worked very well, at least so far. I'm conservative as far as dosing, and do not think megadosing in anything is a good thing. So I've used nothing in excess of 50 mg/day. 5-HTP is known to be about 10 times more potent than L-Tryptophan, so that is one of the reasons why I kept it low. Normally, I even do 25 mg a day to good result--Placebo effect ? Surely to some extent.


Years ago I stumbled across a post made by Steeven Harris, M.D. raising a red flag about the use of 5HTP as being hazardous and which could potentially cause heart valves damage in a manner similar to the former drug Fenfluramine.

Here's the post by Steeven Harris : http://72.14.205.104...lnk&cd=18&gl=ca


I think L-tryptophan would still be safer, given that it doesn't bypass the rate limiting factor for serotonin production. Also there's still *some* concern over peak-X contamination in either 5HTP or L-Tryptophan, although this doesn't appear to be a significant concern when bought from a reliable manufacturer who is willing to provide C of A for the substance.


Be that as it may, I'd like to hear what those most documented here thing about my using low does of 5-HTP or whether I should either stop, find a replacement or switch to L-Tryptophan ?

Thanks

[ajnast4r]

there is NO danger using 50mg 5-htp a day... if you feel good using it, keep with it. from what i have read the dangers of 5htp are purely speculative, and that moderate 5htp supplementation does NOT significantly raise plasma 5ht levels.


NOW brand 5-htp, is >99% pure and certfieid peak X free... and its cheap.

[krillin]

200 mg nearly killed Meatwad with a stomach lesion. (Hmm. He hasn't posted for over a month. I hope he's OK.) Do you feel lucky?

Try a Sirius Light and Sound machine for anxiety control.

[chipdouglas]

200 mg nearly killed Meatwad with a stomach lesion. (Hmm. He hasn't posted for over a month. I hope he's OK.) Do you feel lucky?

Try a Sirius Light and Sound machine for anxiety control.

Initially when I tought of posting on the subject of 5-HTP I had what you or someone else has posted about Meatwad, although I failed to mention this bit of info in my initial post above.


I own a CES device prescribed by Dr. Eric Braverman--This works well for anxiety issues. This is the one I have : http://www.cesultra.com/


I'll Google the sirius light---sound machines, I'm acquainted with, but not the sirius light though....sounds interesting.

[ajnast4r]

meatwad is the ONLY person ive ever heard of reacting like that to 5-htp... 5-htp has never caused any problems for me, or anyone i know, or anyone ive sold it to. its by far the most popular selling supplement for depression.

chip is already taking it, with no problems. 50mg/day is nothing... if it makes you feel better.. TAKE IT

[jagged]

Try a Sirius Light and Sound machine for anxiety control.

Any recommendations for a sound machine? I have an old sharper image 'white noise' only machine, but its getting very old and i'm thinking about replacing it.

[chipdouglas]

http://www.toolsforw....com/nm402.html

[luv2increase]

Try a Sirius Light and Sound machine for anxiety control.

Any recommendations for a sound machine? I have an old sharper image 'white noise' only machine, but its getting very old and i'm thinking about replacing it.

I have a proteus L & S machine. I used to use it a lot but not anymore. I would hook it up to my computer using Neuro-Programmer 2 from transparentcorp.com. I would customize my own sessions. It is very interesting and psychedelic! I think using it too much will F up your brain though [mellow] IMO

[chipdouglas]

EGCG (from Green Tea extract) acts as a natural decarboxylase inhibitor which helps prevent excessive levels of Dopamine from building up in the body rather than the brain.



Quercetin acts as a natural catechol-O-methyl transferase (COMT) inhibitor that improves L-DOPA's conversion into Dopamine in the brain and helps prevent Dopamine breakdown.

Found this here : http://www.uniquenut....asp?itemid=455

[whitenoise]

Anecdotally speaking, I've been supplementing with 50-100 mg/day 5-HTP for some time now. Aside from the Peak-X scare that occured with tryptophan awhile ago (and which shouldn't be a concern in any reliable 5-HTP supplements), there shouldn't be much of a problem. I've used up to 300 mg at a time without problem although I would advise against this. It's not particularly dangerous in the short term, however larger doses put additional strain on the liver.

A few things to keep in mind:
-Vitamin B6 catalyzes the reaction from 5-HTP to 5-HT. Wait a while after taking 5-HTP to take any B6. I say this because B6 is common in energy drinks and is a common supplement used for alertness. 5-HT can't cross the BBB and is generally bad outside the CNS, so co-supplementing with B6 wastes 5-HTP and increases plasma levels, although honestly the waste of good supplements is probably the bigger problem.
-Don't combine 5-HTP with MAOIs. The risk of serotonin syndrome is not particularly large, but better safe than sorry.

~Whitenoise

[chipdouglas]

Thanks for posting this--I too recall having read that large dose of 5HTP can hurt the liver. I'm not a big fan of any large dose of anything actually. I'm conservative, which means I'll use the smallest effective dose.

[luv2increase]

-Don't combine 5-HTP with MAOIs.  The risk of serotonin syndrome is not particularly large, but better safe than sorry.

At least not maois that inhibit mao-a. MAOIs that inhibit mao-b wouldn't be a problem. Also, taking 5-HTP with fruit juice will help it cross the blood brain barrier.

[stayin_alive]

I take 5-htp sublingually..

sometimes in the morning and when having trouble sleeping.

A few years ago, I'd take it and wait some small period of time and drink strong coffee - maybe even esspresso and for a very small period - like a fraction of second, I'd get a bump of "feel good" like having an orgasm. And then, if i laid down ..anytime in the next few hours I would drift off, just like as if I had an orgasm [mellow]

[shifter]

My mum had the exact same problem with 100mg 5-htp as meatwad did. She already has a reflux and acidity problem though.

I didn't notice anything like that when taking it though.

[Evolutionary]

For me, I try to only use 5-htp only before sleep, so that I'll rest better.

[krillin]

-Vitamin B6 catalyzes the reaction from 5-HTP to 5-HT.  Wait a while after taking 5-HTP to take any B6.  I say this because B6 is common in energy drinks and is a common supplement used for alertness.  5-HT can't cross the BBB and is generally bad outside the CNS, so co-supplementing with B6 wastes 5-HTP and increases plasma levels, although honestly the waste of good supplements is probably the bigger problem.

B6 body half-life is about 25 days, so you'd have to wait a long while.

[chipdouglas]

Yikes, I had no idea it was that long. But aren't B6 water soluble, and therefore flushed through urine within a day ?

[krillin]

Yikes, I had no idea it was that long. But aren't B6 water soluble, and therefore flushed through urine within a day ?

B6 gets phosphorylated to PLP, which is bound to proteins in tissues. The body's a lot better at hanging on to B-vitamins than many vitamin companies would have you believe.

[whitenoise]

B6 body half-life is about 25 days, so you'd have to wait a long while.

Curious, live and learn I suppose. Do you know if the phosphorylated form still catalyzes/catalyzes as well as the standard form of B6? I wonder because I found that taking them simultaneously or taking B6 prior to 5-HTP significantly weakened the effect of the 5-HTP. However, taking the 5-HTP first and giving it some time, then taking the B6 seemed to have a stronger effect. My theoretical explaination was that taking the 5-HTP first gave it time to build up in the brain and CNS before catalyzing the reaction.

Since complex molecules' catalytic properties are structure-dependent, the phosphorylated and protein-bound form may not necessary work with 5-HTP. I may also be completely off and my experiances may have been dependent on other factors that I have not taken into consideration.

Thoughts? I'm curious about the biochemistry behind this.

[krillin]

Curious, live and learn I suppose.  Do you know if the phosphorylated form still catalyzes/catalyzes as well as the standard form of B6?  I wonder because I found that taking them simultaneously or taking B6 prior to 5-HTP significantly weakened the effect of the 5-HTP.  However, taking the 5-HTP first and giving it some time, then taking the B6 seemed to have a stronger effect.  My theoretical explaination was that taking the 5-HTP first gave it time to build up in the brain and CNS before catalyzing the reaction.

Since complex molecules' catalytic properties are structure-dependent, the phosphorylated and protein-bound form may not necessary work with 5-HTP.  I may also be completely off and my experiances may have been dependent on other factors that I have not taken into consideration.

Thoughts?  I'm curious about the biochemistry behind this.

B6 doesn't work at all unless it gets phosphorylated. I believe I read in Murray's supplement book that you can only convert about 50 mg of pyridoxine to pyridoxal-5-phosphate at a time, but I've never been able to track down a primary reference. If you take gobs of pyridoxine, the unconverted portion could act as a B6 receptor blocker, since the toxicity symptoms are similar to deficiency symptoms.

[whitenoise]

Thanks Krillin, appreciate the information. Maybe when I get some time I'll poke around the University science library.

[krillin]

Thanks Krillin, appreciate the information.  Maybe when I get some time I'll poke around the University science library.

A good place to start is to read the National Academies Press dietary reference intake books. Just google "nap [insert nutrient here]".

[chipdouglas]

Gee thanks for this reference--I often think I need more such reliable sources for information.

[whitenoise]

Pyridoxine, but according to krillin it's metabolized into p-5-p form shortly afterwards.

[whitenoise]

Well, the issue as it were is that I was trying to determine how to (if possible) stagger supplements so that 5-HTP reaches the brain before the reaction into 5-HT (which can't cross the BBB) is catalyzed by the B6. Based on Krillin's notes however, this isn't really possible unless you only dose B6 about once a month.

[krillin]

I'm beginning to think that the 50 mg/day conversion figure is a bit simplistic.

http://www.ajcn.org/...t/full/75/4/616

3 mg pyridoxine/day will get you 60 nM P5P.
25 mg/day will get you 200 nM.

http://www.pubmedcen...ageindex=3#page

100 mg/day will get you about 430 nM.

Higher doses are hit and miss. For one group, there was no real difference between 100, 200, 300, and 400 mg/day, with the range being 340.6-478.8. For the other group, there was no real difference between 100, 200, and 300 mg/day (range 303.3-458.0), but it spiked to 689.6 at 400 mg/day.

So it looks more like diminishing returns than a threshold.

[bgwowk]

I'm not an expert on 5-HTP, but whenever the subject comes up I feel obliged to mention the "Dr. Harris Green Banana Award" from Usenet back in 1996.

http://yarchive.net/med/5-htp.html

Even if it is now known that 5-HTP does successfully make into the brain and become serotonin there, surely *some* of it is being converted to serotonin in the liver, and one has to wonder about the long-term effects on heart valves.

Comment: Yes, and in fact 5-HTP needs only one more step to
become serotonin-- a decarboxylation.  The sequence is:

Tryptophan --> 5-HTP --> Serotonin.

An exactly analogous sequence is:

Tyrosine --> L-DOPA --> Dopamine


  In both cases the end product neurotransmitter does not get
across the blood brain barrier very well, but all of the
precursor molecules above are transported by the brain's large
neutral amino acid pump, and they get into the brain fine.  Thus,
if you are a Parkinson's patient who wants to raise dopamine
levels, you must take L-DOPA, not dopamine.  Similarly, it would
do you no good to take serotonin-- you must take tryptophan or
5-hydroxytryptophan (5-HTP).

  Now for the complications. (Aren't there always complications
in life?)  The final reaction to the neurotransmitter in both the
case of dopamine and serotonin, is decarboxylation, and the same
enzyme (the aromatic L-amino acid decarboxylase) is involved in
both conversions.  This decarboxylase enzyme is present in the
liver, and it acts in the case of L-DOPA to convert the compound
to dopamine before it can make it into the brain (and if this
happens, the L-DOPA is wasted).  The decarboxylase enzyme uses B6
as a cofactor for this reaction, and for this reason a
Parkinson's disease patient taking L-DOPA cannot take more than
the RDA of B6, because doing so would act to neutralize
oral L-DOPA too quickly.  These days, almost all Parkinson's
patients on L-DOPA take the drug in a combination with an
artificial decarboxylase inhibitor, called Carbidopa (the
combination is called Sinemet).  But even with Carbidopa,
Parkinson's patients are advised not to exceed a daily dose of B6
of 25 mg, since more will overwhelm the Carbidopa effect, and
cause pharmacologic L-DOPA to be destroyed in the liver before it
can get into the brain.

  Now, Carbidopa, because it acts on the same metabolizing
enzyme in the liver, performs exactly the same preservative
service for 5-HTP as for L-DOPA.  For this reason, neurologists
have experimented with giving Carbidopa to people who needed to
take 5-HTP to raise brain serotonin (this in the days before
selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor antidepressants like
Prozac were available).  The problem today with 5-HTP-selling
companies bypassing doctors and going to laymen, is that a lot of
health enthusiasts with problems who are enthusiastically taking
5-HTP are NOT taking Carbidopa, but they ARE taking a lot of B6
in one form or another.  Yet without Carbidopa, more than a few
milligrams of extra B6 per day would be expected to insure that
most dietary 5-HTP gets turned into serotonin before it can get
into the brain.

  Alas, one company I know packages their 5-HTP in 50 mg
capsules with 10 mg of B6.  They do this ostensibly so that 5-HTP
can be converted to serotonin in the brain.  Duh.  This insures
that any 5-HTP will get converted to serotonin in the liver
instead, and thus never make it to the brain.  Vitamin B6 is the
*LAST* thing you want in an 5-HTP product.

  At the very best, people who take B-vitamins with 5-HTP, or
who take 5-HTP products with B6, waste their money.  All this
would be merely humorous (caveat emptor) were it not for some
other facts.  At worst, ignorant people fooling with 5-HTP
actually risk their health, since serotonin in the peripheral
blood is not benign.  Serotonin causes not only harmless flushing
and diarrhea, but people with serotonin secreting tumors (hindgut
carcinoids) also have problems with fibrosis of the endocardium
and valves in their right hearts, which can cause heart failure.
This fibrosis is caused by the serotonin.  This effect can also
be seen with dietary intake of only modest amounts of serotonin,
and there has actually been described in the medical literature a
tribe of South Sea islanders with right heart fibrosis as a
result of eating green banana mash (matuki), which poisons them
with its serotonin content.  No, I'm not making this up.  The
hydroxylation of tryptophan is a rate-limiting step in the
peripheral production of serotonin, and one bypasses it at one's
peril.

  How much does it take?  Several hundred milligrams of 5-HTP
taken per day, if converted to serotonin, would result in a
urinary excretion of the serotonin metabolite 5-hydroxyindoleac-
etic acid (5-HIAA) of several hundred milligrams also-- an amount
well within the urinary excretion range of the average person
with a serotonin producing carcinoid.  Such a dose of 5-HTP
certainly would result in a serotonin blood load comparable to
that of green-banana-diet eating people who have
serotonin-induced heart valve disease.  Normally, people do not
excrete breakdown products of more than 10 mg of serotonin
metabolites per day.  If you take one capsule per day of 50 mg
5-HTP with 10 mg B6, however, you would be expected to go to at
least 50 mg per day of 5-HIAA in the urine.  Less metabolism in
the liver (less B6) would result in less 5-HIAA in the urine.  If
you are going to take 5-HTP, therefore, you probably need 5-HIAA
urine monitoring, to figure out just how big a dose of systemic
serotonin you're actually getting (and incidentally, how much
5-HTP you're wasting).  See a doctor!

  For all the reasons outlined above, I am presenting those
vitamin companies who sell 5-HTP with B6, or who sell it alone
but don't warn their customers about 5-HIAA monitoring or B6
intake, a special award: the Green Banana Award.  This honor is
for those supplement-sellers who monkey around with people's
health before consulting with some really good nutrition and
medical specialists to make sure they don't f*&% up and hurt
somebody.  Hopefully, companies which receive the Green Banana
Award will contemplate its message, and will thereby change their
behavior in order to avoid some of the less-coveted awards which
otherwise await them in the future: the Civil Damage Award, for
instance, or even the All-Expense-Paid Guest of the Federal
Government Award.


                              Steven B. Harris, M.D.