19 replies to this topic

[freedom40]

Anyone else read this study? Apparently it has prompted AOR to reformulate their selenium product.

http://aor.ca/int/ab...fullarticle.pdf

[Shepard]

http://www.imminst.o...amp;hl=selenium

http://www.imminst.o...amp;hl=selenium

[browser]

So the evil government of Germany wasn't so evil after all in making selenium a prescription drug?

[niner]

Anyone else read this study? Apparently it has prompted AOR to reformulate their selenium product.

They haven't reformatted Ortho-Core... Still 200ug in the full 9 capsule dose.

[Brainbox]

Apart from the issues mentioned in the other selenium threads that could be applicable to this study as well, I have several, but one major question about this report:

What I would like to see is the distribution of selenium blood levels in both groups.
Right now, there's a specification of the diabetes incidence as function of selenium level in both groups, but the actual selenium levels are missing, which would be required to know to prove causality? Or am I missing something else that's obvious?

Edited by brainbox, 22 November 2007 - 08:12 AM.

[markymark]

So the evil government of Germany wasn't so evil after all in making selenium a prescription drug?

please contemplate about what is called "statistical power" of a trial. I have read but not calculated it myself that one or two more cases in the placebo group would have made the result insignifcant...
However, the average Life Extensionist does not practice Selenium Monomania I guess and if the results of the ongoing SELECT on prostae cancer turn out to be positive for selenium the very thin not-yet-evidenve for "selenium-causes-diabetes" can be neglected.

The title of the thread makes me angry already. "Selenium causes Diabetes" Which type? one or two. The style is the same as the anti-supplement press usually writes without looking close at the facts.......

Would a slight increase in physical activity already eliminate the risk for going to be diagnozed diabetic when taking selenium. Who has read the study? I have it as pdf.

And finally the german BfR (its head is the chief of CODEX) is one of the biggest dangers for free access to higher- and mid- dose supplements in Europe and eventually this migh go transatlantic...

Edited by markymark, 22 November 2007 - 08:53 AM.

[Matt]

If following a healthy diet (as everyone should be) then supplementing selenium WILL NOT make you more likely to get diabetes at all. Simple as that!

[krillin]

Time to revise my calculation, based on the blood results from that article. I had earlier assumed that a 200 mcg supplement would raise blood levels by 80 ng/ml, because 100 mcg raised it by 40 ng/ml in SU.VI.MAX. (PMIDs 16115341 and 11718454) But Figure 1 shows that it only went up by about 70 ng/ml.

Looking at the selenium cancer study (PMID: 12101110), it's best to get more than from diet, since the lowest baseline tertile plus 200 mcg was best, followed by middle tertile plus 200 mcg, followed by highest tertile plus placebo. Thus, the maximum desirable blood level would be 105.2 ng/ml + 70 ng/ml = 175.2 ng/ml.

NHANES III found that Americans ate an average of 106 mcg and had an average of 124 ng/ml in plasma.

http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=309
http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=310

Increasing that to a maximum of 175.2 ng/ml means adding no more than 128 mcg supplemental selenium (assuming +40 ng/ml for every 100 mcg eaten, since we're taking a dose closer to 100 than 200). Taking only 100 mcg/day gives a reasonable safety margin.

Edited by krillin, 22 November 2007 - 07:32 PM.

[browser]

Time to revise my calculation, based on the blood results from that article. I had earlier assumed that a 200 mcg supplement would raise blood levels by 80 ng/ml, because 100 mcg raised it by 40 ng/ml in SU.VI.MAX. (PMIDs 16115341 and 11718454) But Figure 1 shows that it only went up by about 70 ng/ml.

Looking at the selenium cancer study (PMID: 12101110), it's best to get more than from diet, since the lowest baseline tertile plus 200 mcg was best, followed by middle tertile plus 200 mcg, followed by highest tertile plus placebo. Thus, the maximum desirable blood level would be 105.2 ng/ml + 70 ng/ml = 175.2 ng/ml.

NHANES III found that Americans ate an average of 106 mcg and had an average of 124 ng/ml in plasma.

http://books.nap.edu...i...10&page=309
http://books.nap.edu...i...10&page=310

Increasing that to a maximum of 175.2 ng/ml means adding no more than 128 mcg supplemental selenium (assuming +40 ng/ml for every 100 mcg eaten, since we're taking a dose closer to 100 than 200). Taking only 100 mcg/day gives a reasonable safety margin.

Hmm. I take 200 mcg. a day in my LEF mix and I have a years' worth of LEF Mix tablets left over from the closeout some months ago. The newly formulated LEF mix tablets still contain 200 mcg. I'd be willing to bet that LEF ignores or counters this study until it's sold out all of its current stock, assuming it's going to change the formulation because of this. They've only changed the formulation about 6 times in 20 years IIRC.

[Brainbox]

What I would like to see is the distribution of selenium blood levels in both groups.

But Figure 1 shows that it only went up by about 70 ng/ml.

I've been looking with my eyes shut this morning apparently.... thanks.

[krillin]

I've been looking with my eyes shut this morning apparently.... thanks.

Your point is still valid. The rise may have been dependent on baseline status i.e. the people getting less in diet may have had increases of 80 while those getting more in diet may have had increases of 60. How much effort would it have taken the authors to give us two or three graphs instead of just one?

[Brainbox]

Yep, but the credibility and my understanding of it went up at least a bit.

[krillin]

Hmm. I take 200 mcg. a day in my LEF mix and I have a years' worth of LEF Mix tablets left over from the closeout some months ago. The newly formulated LEF mix tablets still contain 200 mcg. I'd be willing to bet that LEF ignores or counters this study until it's sold out all of its current stock, assuming it's going to change the formulation because of this. They've only changed the formulation about 6 times in 20 years IIRC.

And don't forget that they want you to take the booster with it, for a total of 400 mcg.

Here's something funny. Last month I was making fun of Wakfer for taking at least 533 mg selenium. It turns out that he tested his selenium level and it was an almost perfect 171. (Maybe he's running into absorption problems due to the gobs of stuff he takes, or maybe resveratrol isn't LEF's only QC problem.) His conclusion: "Because of all the selenium that I supplement and brazil nuts eaten, I was surprised that my blood selenium was only mid-range. I may increase my selenium dosage."

[Matt]

My Selenium intake is quite high with my supplements on top of the good amount I get in my diet... but my last fasting glucose was 77mg/dL. Hardly increasing my risk of diabetes is it? :whis:

Forget what the research says, just monitor you OWN glucose and insulin levels and go from there!

Edited by Matt, 23 November 2007 - 07:03 PM.

[krillin]

Forget what the research says, just monitor you OWN glucose and insulin levels and go from there!

What about the cancer U-curve?

[krillin]

Time to revise my calculation, based on the blood results from that article. I had earlier assumed that a 200 mcg supplement would raise blood levels by 80 ng/ml, because 100 mcg raised it by 40 ng/ml in SU.VI.MAX. (PMIDs 16115341 and 11718454) But Figure 1 shows that it only went up by about 70 ng/ml.

Looking at the selenium cancer study (PMID: 12101110), it's best to get more than from diet, since the lowest baseline tertile plus 200 mcg was best, followed by middle tertile plus 200 mcg, followed by highest tertile plus placebo. Thus, the maximum desirable blood level would be 105.2 ng/ml + 70 ng/ml = 175.2 ng/ml.

NHANES III found that Americans ate an average of 106 mcg and had an average of 124 ng/ml in plasma.

http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=309
http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=310

Increasing that to a maximum of 175.2 ng/ml means adding no more than 128 mcg supplemental selenium (assuming +40 ng/ml for every 100 mcg eaten, since we're taking a dose closer to 100 than 200). Taking only 100 mcg/day gives a reasonable safety margin.

Finally got around to using the CRON-o-Meter and found out that my diet is nowhere near average. 1/4 cup/day of mixed nuts gives me 151.7 mcg of selenium all by itself. Total non-supplement intake is 250.7 mcg. It thus appears that even a smidge of brazil nuts is incompatible with selenium supplementation.

[graatch]

Worth considering that most people here probably get a good deal more selenium than "average Americans" in their diet, because they eat healthily, ie greens.

[krillin]

Time to revise my calculation, based on the blood results from that article. I had earlier assumed that a 200 mcg supplement would raise blood levels by 80 ng/ml, because 100 mcg raised it by 40 ng/ml in SU.VI.MAX. (PMIDs 16115341 and 11718454) But Figure 1 shows that it only went up by about 70 ng/ml.

Looking at the selenium cancer study (PMID: 12101110), it's best to get more than from diet, since the lowest baseline tertile plus 200 mcg was best, followed by middle tertile plus 200 mcg, followed by highest tertile plus placebo. Thus, the maximum desirable blood level would be 105.2 ng/ml + 70 ng/ml = 175.2 ng/ml.

NHANES III found that Americans ate an average of 106 mcg and had an average of 124 ng/ml in plasma.

http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=309
http://www.nap.edu/o...d=9810&page=310

Increasing that to a maximum of 175.2 ng/ml means adding no more than 128 mcg supplemental selenium (assuming +40 ng/ml for every 100 mcg eaten, since we're taking a dose closer to 100 than 200). Taking only 100 mcg/day gives a reasonable safety margin.

Finally got around to using the CRON-o-Meter and found out that my diet is nowhere near average. 1/4 cup/day of mixed nuts gives me 151.7 mcg of selenium all by itself. Total non-supplement intake is 250.7 mcg. It thus appears that even a smidge of brazil nuts is incompatible with selenium supplementation.

After revamping my diet (no brazil nuts, almost all wheat eliminated), CRON-o-Meter says I get 37.2 mcg. Thus, a daily 200 mcg supplement would bring me just a few mcg over the limit. So I took 200 mcg SeMC daily for three months prior to my blood test. My blood test came back at 150 ng/ml. Substantially more than average, and comfortably less than the limit I imposed. At least something went right for me this year...

[krillin]

Based on this paper, I'm reducing my upper limit from 175 ng/ml to 150 ng/ml.

Arch Intern Med. 2008 Feb 25;168(4):404-10.
Serum selenium levels and all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular mortality among US adults.
Bleys J, Navas-Acien A, Guallar E.
Department of Epidemiology, Welch Center for Prevention, Epidemiology, and Clinical Research, The Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, MD 21205, USA. jbleys@jhsph.edu

BACKGROUND: Selenium, an essential trace element involved in defense against oxidative stress, may prevent cancer and cardiovascular disease. We evaluated the association between selenium levels and all-cause and cause-specific mortality in a representative sample of US adults. METHODS: Serum selenium levels were measured in 13,887 adult participants in the Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. Study participants were recruited from 1988 to 1994 and followed up for mortality for up to 12 years. RESULTS: The mean serum selenium level was 125.6 ng/mL. The multivariate adjusted hazard ratios comparing the highest (> or = 130.39 ng/mL) with the lowest (< 117.31 ng/mL) serum selenium level tertile were 0.83 (95% confidence interval [CI], 0.72-0.96) for all-cause mortality, 0.69 (95% CI, 0.53-0.90) for cancer mortality, and 0.94 (95% CI, 0.77-1.16) for cardiovascular mortality. However, based on spline regression models, the association between serum selenium levels and all-cause and cancer mortality was nonlinear, with an inverse association at low selenium levels (< 130 ng/mL) and a modest increase in mortality at high selenium levels (> 150 ng/mL). There was no association between serum selenium levels and cardiovascular mortality. CONCLUSIONS: In a representative sample of the US population, we found a nonlinear association between serum selenium levels and all-cause and cancer mortality. Increasing serum selenium levels were associated with decreased mortality up to 130 ng/mL. Our study, however, raises the concern that higher serum selenium levels may be associated with increased mortality.

PMID: 18299496

[krillin]

Geez, look at the lack of originality in this new ongoing trial. 200 mcg again. Obsolete selenomethionine again. (The first one used selenized yeast which is mostly selenomethionine.) But this time the baseline seleniums are 147.5 and 151.7 ng/ml so it's going to end in a disaster with concomitant news media hysterics.

http://cebp.aacrjour.../full/15/8/1479