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Pycnogenol beats acarbose


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#1 DukeNukem

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:47 AM


Pycnogenol® Delays Glucose Absorption 190 Times More Potently Than Prescription Medication

http://findarticles....02/ai_n17168252

"A new study to be published in an upcoming edition of the journal of Diabetes Research and Clinical Practice reveals that French maritime pine tree extract known as Pycnogenol® (pic-noj-en-all) delays the uptake of glucose from a meal 190 times more than prescription medications, preventing the typical high-glucose peak in the blood stream after a meal. The study revealed the pine bark is more potent for suppressing carbohydrate absorption in diabetes than synthetic prescription alpha-glucosidase inhibitors such as Precose®."

This report was from early last year, but I missed it. Stunning, if true. I used to take 200mg of Pycnogenol daily (half morning, half night), and currently take 100mg each day. But I might start taking smaller doses pre-meals, like 50mg.

Home page, if anyone is interested: http://www.pycnogenol.com/consumer/

#2 edward

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 03:20 AM

Wow, is just about all I a can say to that. More reasons for me to be glad that I opted to take Pine Bark and Grape Seed rather than just twice the grapseed. Though I wonder if grapeseed has this same effect. Regardless, very cool stuff.

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#3 niner

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 04:03 AM

Yeah, that is really impressive. Any downside to this? Low blood sugar? Flatulence?

#4 nameless

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 06:06 AM

It may be difficult to tell, since you take tons of supplements already and are in good health (I assume), but did you notice any difference with your cholesterol or triglyceride numbers after taking Pycnogenol?

If it has such a big effect on glucose metabolism, it theoretically could improve triglyceride numbers, and maybe LDL too.

#5 liorrh

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 06:21 AM

PS try to read the research before posting hype marketing information.

: Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2007 Jul;77(1):41-6. Epub 2006 Nov 13.Click here to read Links
Oligomeric procyanidins of French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) effectively inhibit alpha-glucosidase.
Schäfer A, Högger P.

Universität Würzburg, Institut für Pharmazie und Lebensmittelchemie, Am Hubland, Würzburg, Germany.

The standardized maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) was reported to exert clinical anti-diabetic effects after peroral intake. However, an increased insulin secretion was not observed after administration of the extract to patients. Our aim was to elucidate whether the described clinical effects of Pycnogenol are related to inhibition of alpha-glucosidase. Therefore, we analyzed the inhibitory activity of Pycnogenol, green tea extract and acarbose towards alpha-glucosidase. Furthermore, we explored different fractions of Pycnogenol containing compounds of diverse molecular masses from polyphenolic monomers, dimers and higher oligomers to uncover which components exhibited the most pronounced inhibitory activity. We found that Pycnogenol exhibited the most potent inhibition (IC(50) about 5 microg/mL) on alpha-glucosidase compared to green tea extract (IC(50) about 20 microg/mL) and acarbose (IC(50) about 1mg/mL). The inhibitory action of Pycnogenol was stronger in extract fractions containing higher procyanidin oligomers. The results obtained assign a novel, local effect to oligomeric procyanidins and contribute to the explanation of glucose-lowering effects of Pycnogenol observed in clinical trials with diabetic patients.

PMID: 17098323



#6 lucid

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:12 AM

PS try to read the research before posting hype marketing information.

: Diabetes Res Clin Pract. 2007 Jul;77(1):41-6. Epub 2006 Nov 13.Click here to read Links
Oligomeric procyanidins of French maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) effectively inhibit alpha-glucosidase.
Schäfer A, Högger P.

Universität Würzburg, Institut für Pharmazie und Lebensmittelchemie, Am Hubland, Würzburg, Germany.

The standardized maritime pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) was reported to exert clinical anti-diabetic effects after peroral intake. However, an increased insulin secretion was not observed after administration of the extract to patients. Our aim was to elucidate whether the described clinical effects of Pycnogenol are related to inhibition of alpha-glucosidase. Therefore, we analyzed the inhibitory activity of Pycnogenol, green tea extract and acarbose towards alpha-glucosidase. Furthermore, we explored different fractions of Pycnogenol containing compounds of diverse molecular masses from polyphenolic monomers, dimers and higher oligomers to uncover which components exhibited the most pronounced inhibitory activity. We found that Pycnogenol exhibited the most potent inhibition (IC(50) about 5 microg/mL) on alpha-glucosidase compared to green tea extract (IC(50) about 20 microg/mL) and acarbose (IC(50) about 1mg/mL). The inhibitory action of Pycnogenol was stronger in extract fractions containing higher procyanidin oligomers. The results obtained assign a novel, local effect to oligomeric procyanidins and contribute to the explanation of glucose-lowering effects of Pycnogenol observed in clinical trials with diabetic patients.

PMID: 17098323

That study confirms the marketing hype. ?

#7 kenj

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 02:44 PM

This is great. I've taken pycnogenol for a while, and noticed nothing negatively from it. IME, another alpha-glucosidase-binding supplement: Salacia Oblonga is more difficult to deal with (gastrointestinal distress, ugh).

#8 inawe

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 04:40 PM

This is great. I've taken pycnogenol for a while, and noticed nothing negatively from it. IME, another alpha-glucosidase-binding supplement: Salacia Oblonga is more difficult to deal with (gastrointestinal distress, ugh).

Where can one get Salacia Oblonga? Can you describe the gastrointestinal distress you experienced taking it?
Thank you

#9 kenj

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:15 PM

Got it from AOR in europe. I noted a slight nausea initially, and after a few days I would get "abdominal cramping" following a carb meal. I stopped taking it. YMMV.

#10 krillin

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 04:57 AM

Pine bark usually loses to grape seed in head to head tests, and grape seed has a more diverse composition.

J Soc Biol. 2007;201(2):189-98.
[Inhibition of advanced glycation by flavonoids. A nutritional implication for preventing diabetes complications?]
[Article in French]
Urios P, Grigorova-Borsos AM, Peyroux J, Sternberg M.
Département de Biochimie, Faculté de Médecine & Laboratoire de Pharmacologie, Faculté de Pharmacie, Université René Descartes, Paris, France. paul.urios@bch.aphp.fr

Advanced glycation of collagens contributes to development of micro- and macrovascular complications in diabetes. Since flavonoids are potent natural antioxidants, it was interesting to examine their effect on the formation of a cross-linking advanced glycation endproduct, pentosidine, in collagen incubated with glucose. Monomeric flavonoids (25 and 250 microM) markedly reduced pentosidine/hydroxyproline values in a concentration- and structure-dependent manner. Procyanidin oligomers from grape seed were more active than pine bark procyanidin oligomers. Oligomers are known to be cleaved into monomers in the gastric milieu and monomeric flavonoids to be absorbed and recovered at micromolar concentrations (with a long plasmatic half-life) in extracellular fluids, in contact with collagens. In conclusion, flavonoids are very potent inhibitors of pentosidine formation in collagens, active at micromolar concentrations; these concentrations might be achieved in plasma of diabetic patients after oral intake of flavonoids.

PMID: 17978753

Eur J Nutr. 2007 Apr;46(3):139-46.
Flavonoids inhibit the formation of the cross-linking AGE pentosidine in collagen incubated with glucose, according to their structure.
Urios P, Grigorova-Borsos AM, Sternberg M.
Equipe de recherche "Protéines modifiées, protéases et physiopathologie de l'endothélium vasculaire", Dépt. de Biochimie, Faculté de Médecine and Laboratoire de Pharmacologie, Faculté de Pharmacie, Université René Descartes, Paris, France.

BACKGROUND: Glycoxidation of collagens contributes to development of vascular complications in diabetes. AIM OF THE STUDY: Since flavonoids are potent antioxidants present in vegetal foods, it was interesting to examine their effect on the formation of a cross-linking advanced glycation endproduct, pentosidine, in collagens. METHODS: Collagen was incubated with glucose (250 mM), in the presence of different flavonoids. Pentosidine was measured by HPLC, hydroxyproline colorimetrically. RESULTS: Monomeric flavonoids (25 and 250 microM) markedly reduced pentosidine/hydroxyproline values in a concentration- and structure-dependent manner. In decreasing order of their specific inhibitory activity, they rank as follows: myricetin > or = quercetin > rutin > (+)catechin > kaempferol. Thus 3'-OH or 4-oxo + Delta(2-3) increase the inhibitory activity; conjugation by Rha-Glc on 3-OH decreases it. Procyanidin oligomers from grape seed were more active than pine bark procyanidin oligomers: this may be related to the galloyl residues present in grape seed oligomers only. Procyanidin oligomers are known to be cleaved into monomers in the gastric milieu and monomeric flavonoids to be absorbed and recovered at micromolar concentrations (with a long plasmatic half-life) in extracellular fluids, in contact with collagens. CONCLUSION: Flavonoids are very potent inhibitors of pentosidine formation in collagens. They are active at micromolar concentrations; these might be achieved in plasma of diabetic patients after oral intake of natural flavonoids.

PMID: 17356796

J Agric Food Chem. 2007 Jan 10;55(1):148-56.
Comparison of proanthocyanidins in commercial antioxidants: grape seed and pine bark extracts.
Weber HA, Hodges AE, Guthrie JR, O'Brien BM, Robaugh D, Clark AP, Harris RK, Algaier JW, Smith CS.
Midwest Research Institute, 425 Volker Boulevard, Kansas City, Missouri 64110, USA.

The major constituents in grape seed and pine bark extracts are proanthocyanidins. To evaluate material available to consumers, select lots were analyzed using high-performance liquid chromatography, gas chromatography/mass spectrometry (GC/MS), liquid chromatography/mass spectrometry (LC/MS), gel permeation chromatography (GPC), and matrix-assisted laser desorption/ionization time-of-flight mass spectrometry (MALDI-TOF MS). Atmospheric pressure chemical ionization (APCI) LC/MS was used to identify monomers, dimers, and trimers present. GC/MS analyses led to the identification of ethyl esters of hexadecanoic acid, linoleic acid, and oleic acid, as well as smaller phenolic and terpene components. The GPC molecular weight (MW) distribution indicated components ranging from approximately 162 to approximately 5500 MW (pine bark less than 1180 MW and grape seed approximately 1180 to approximately 5000 MW). MALDI-TOF MS analyses showed that pine bark did not contain oligomers with odd numbers of gallate units and grape seed contained oligomers with both odd and even numbers of gallate. Reflectron MALDI-TOF MS identified oligomers up to a pentamer and heptamer, and linear MALDI-TOF MS showed a mass range nearly double that of reflectron analyses.

PMID: 17199326

Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2006 Jan;76(1):22-7.
In vivo antioxidant activity of procyanidin-rich extracts from grape seed and pine (Pinus maritima) bark in rats.
Busserolles J, Gueux E, Balasińska B, Piriou Y, Rock E, Rayssiguier Y, Mazur A.
Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine d'Auvergne, Unité des Maladies Métaboliques et Micronutriments, INRA, Theix, Saint-Genès-Champanelle, France.

BACKGROUND: In vitro evidence exists for the potential antioxidant benefits of procyanidin-rich extracts, but in vivo studies are scarce. We have evaluated the effects of selected procyanidin-rich extracts on oxidative stress in rats in condition of prolonged consumption of these compounds and also after single administration i.e. in postprandial conditions. METHODS: Rats were fed for 8 weeks with diets supplemented with either a grape seed extract (GE), a pine bark extract (PE), or a high-degree polymerized pine bark extract (HPE). An additional study was performed in order to assess the postprandial effect of these extracts on plasma antioxidant capacity. The ferric-reducing antioxidant power (FRAP) and thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBARS) were determined in plasma. For lipid peroxidation study of heart tissue, homogenates were prepared and TBARS were measured after lipid peroxidation induced by FeSO4-ascorbate. RESULTS: After 8 weeks of dietary treatment, total antioxidant capacity in plasma was significantly higher in the GE and PE groups as compared with the other two groups. Plasma TBARS concentrations and heart susceptibility to peroxidation were not significantly different between the groups. In the postprandial state, by comparing plasma antioxidant capacity 2 hours after ingestion of the different procyanidin-rich extracts (500 mg/kg body weight), we observed that FRAP values were higher in the procyanidin-rich extracts groups as compared with the control group. Moreover, plasma FRAP concentration was significantly higher in the GE group as compared with the other groups. CONCLUSION: The results of the present experiment constitute positive evidence for an in vivo antioxidant effect at the plasma level of procyanidin-containing plant extracts.

PMID: 16711653

J Food Prot. 2004 Jan;67(1):148-55.
Antimicrobial and antioxidant activities of natural extracts in vitro and in ground beef.
Ahn J, Grün IU, Mustapha A.
Department of Food Science, 256 William Stringer Wing, Eckles Hall, University of Missouri, Columbia, Missouri 65211, USA.

Inhibition of Escherichia coli O157:H7, Salmonella Typhimurium, and Listeria monocytogenes by grape seed extract (ActiVin) and pine bark extract (Pycnogenol) and the effect of these natural extracts on the oxidative stability of raw ground beef were studied. In an agar dilution test, the MICs of ActiVin and Pycnogenol were determined to be 4.0 mg/ml for 4.43 log CFU per plate of E. coli O157:H7 and 4.0 mg/ml for 4.38 log CFU per plate of L. monocytogenes. In an inhibition curve test, populations of E. coli O157:H7, Salmonella Typhimurium, and L. monocytogenes fell to below the detection limit (10 CFU/ml) after 16 h of incubation. The numbers of E. coli O157:H7, L. monocytogenes, and Salmonella Typhimurium declined by 1.08, 1.24, and 1.33 log CFU/g, respectively, in raw ground beef treated with 1% Pycnogenol after 9 days of refrigerated storage. ActiVin (1%) and oleoresin rosemary (1%) resulted in an approximately 1-log CFU/g reduction in the populations of all three pathogens after 9 days. The addition of 1% ActiVin and Pycnogenol contributed to the maintenance of an acidic pH of 5.80 and 5.58, respectively, in raw ground beef. Compared to the control, all treatments increased in L* (lightness), with the exception of ActiVin. ActiVin and oleoresin rosemary had the highest a* (redness) and b* (yellowness) values, respectively. ActiVin most effectively retarded lipid oxidation, followed by Pycnogenol. The results suggest that these natural extracts have potential to be used with other preservative methods to reduce pathogenic numbers, lipid oxidation, and color degradation in ground beef.

PMID: 14717365

Food Microbiol. 2007 Feb;24(1):7-14.
Erratum in: Food Microbiol. 2007 Jun;24(4):432.
Effects of plant extracts on microbial growth, color change, and lipid oxidation in cooked beef.
Ahn J, Grün IU, Mustapha A.
Division of Biomaterials Engineering, Kangwon National University, Chucheon, Gangwon 200-701, Republic of Korea [corrected]

The effects of butylated hydroxyanisole/butylated hydroxytoluene (BHA/BHT), grape seed extract (ActiVin), pine bark extract (Pycnogenol), and oleoresin rosemary (Herbalox) on microbial growth, color change, and lipid oxidation were investigated in cooked ground beef. When compared to the control, 1.0% ActiVin and Pycnogenol) effectively reduced the numbers of Escherichia coli O157:H7 and Salmonella Typhimurium, and retarded the growth of Listeria monocytogenes and Aeromonas hydrophila. Pycnogenol resulted in reductions of 1.7, 2.0, 0.8, and 0.4 log CFU/g, respectively, in numbers of E. coli O157:H7, L. monocytogenes, S. Typhimurium, and A. hydrophila, respectively, after 9 days of refrigerated storage. The color of cooked beef treated with ActiVin was less light (L*), more red (a*), and less yellow (b*) than those treated with BHA/BHT, Pycnogenol, and Herbalox. ActiVin and Pycnogenol effectively retained the redness in cooked beef during storage. The control showed significantly higher thiobarbituric acid-reactive substances (TBARS) and hexanal content over storage. BHA/BHT, ActiVin, Pycnogenol, and Herbalox retarded the formation of TBARS by 75%, 92%, 94%, and 92%, respectively, after 9 days, and significantly lowered the hexanal content throughout the storage period. Results of this work show that ActiVin and Pycnogenol are promising additives for maintaining the quality and safety of cooked beef.

PMID: 16943089
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#11 wydell

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 03:39 PM

That's why I have not added pine bark in addition to grape seed in my regimen. I am all for diversity (and do get a diverse source of polyphenols), but I already have too many supplement bottles to manage. I should have a strategy to reduce the number of supplements I am taking, rather than the reverse.


Pine bark usually loses to grape seed in head to head tests, and grape seed has a more diverse composition....


Edited by cnorwood, 26 March 2008 - 09:31 PM.

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#12 chrisp2

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Posted 03 February 2008 - 05:31 PM

I just ordered some Pycnogenol as part of my yearly supplement purchase.

I bought the Twinlab 50mg, plan to take two a day.

I was originally planning on taking one capsule at lunch and one at dinner - my two meals typically with the highest glycemic index. I don't really have time to take it a half hour before, then wait, then eat. (Well I have time at dinner - it's just that I'm not likely to remember)

The half life is 7 hours apparently.

Perhaps a good strategy is to take it with my pre-breakfast supplement cocktail (a half hour before I eat my fiber cereal)... And then at lunch take the other.

I typically eat lunch about 5.75 hours after my breakfast dose, and dinner about 5.75 - 7 hours after my lunch dose. While not optimal, it should make for a substantial serum level of Pycnogenol during both meals, and in between. (Although at this point I'm wishing I bought the 100mg caps for only a little bit more)

#13 edward

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 05:59 PM

I'm going to bump this because although this is pretty amazing stuff and probably wonderful for life extension purposes, I am wondering about the potential for hypoglycemia.

Basically enough pine bark, or even grape seed and green tea could inhibit alpha-glucosidase (if so much more potent then acarbose which warns of hypoglycemia as a side effect that can only be alleviated by glucose tablets) enough to cause one to waste almost all of the complex carbohydrates ingested (including sugars), though arguably this is a good thing, the situation would leave only raw glucose able to get absorbed and be stored as liver and muscle glycogen, fuel your brain etc, thus automatically putting the user of (pine bark, grape seed and green tea) in almost total reliance on the fats and protein in their diet for energy, thus causing the user to unknowingly be on a ketogenic Atkins type diet.

Now for some people this might be a good thing. Me personally I do not have anything close to diabetes 2 and my bodyfat percentage has always been between 6-10% (hydrostatic weighing and calipers) so I am not all that concerned with any weight loss this effect might cause. I am worried about brain functioning as I am working while studying to enter a different field so I need all the brain "energy" I can get.

I wonder if the bouts of what I call brain burnout after studying for a long period of time are in fact related to my brain running out of glucose (due to my intake of pine bark grape seed and to a lesser extent green tea) and having to switch to alternative sources of energy (not bad in an of themselves it just its a little rough switching from one to another as anyone who has experimentally tried an Atkins type diet can profess)

~ I'm wondering if I should carry around glucose tablets for just this occasion. Note, I plan to get some glucose tablets and experiment with them (continuing with my usual supplement dosages) when "hitting the wall" studying and see what happens. Perhaps I should get a blood glucose meter as that would really give me answers anyone know of a cheap accurate one?

Edited by edward, 12 February 2008 - 06:57 PM.


#14 Jacovis

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 09:54 AM

I'm going to bump this because although this is pretty amazing stuff and probably wonderful for life extension purposes, I am wondering about the potential for hypoglycemia.

Basically enough pine bark, or even grape seed and green tea could inhibit alpha-glucosidase (if so much more potent then acarbose which warns of hypoglycemia as a side effect that can only be alleviated by glucose tablets) enough to cause one to waste almost all of the complex carbohydrates ingested (including sugars), though arguably this is a good thing, the situation would leave only raw glucose able to get absorbed and be stored as liver and muscle glycogen, fuel your brain etc, thus automatically putting the user of (pine bark, grape seed and green tea) in almost total reliance on the fats and protein in their diet for energy, thus causing the user to unknowingly be on a ketogenic Atkins type diet.

Now for some people this might be a good thing. Me personally I do not have anything close to diabetes 2 and my bodyfat percentage has always been between 6-10% (hydrostatic weighing and calipers) so I am not all that concerned with any weight loss this effect might cause. I am worried about brain functioning as I am working while studying to enter a different field so I need all the brain "energy" I can get.

I wonder if the bouts of what I call brain burnout after studying for a long period of time are in fact related to my brain running out of glucose (due to my intake of pine bark grape seed and to a lesser extent green tea) and having to switch to alternative sources of energy (not bad in an of themselves it just its a little rough switching from one to another as anyone who has experimentally tried an Atkins type diet can profess)

~ I'm wondering if I should carry around glucose tablets for just this occasion. Note, I plan to get some glucose tablets and experiment with them (continuing with my usual supplement dosages) when "hitting the wall" studying and see what happens. Perhaps I should get a blood glucose meter as that would really give me answers anyone know of a cheap accurate one?


You know funnily enough I have noticed after drinking Green Tea after like 30 minutes or so (I assume that's the Caffeine/Theanine rush) I do feel like my brain energy levels aren't very good. I mean it feels like my brain energy levels are worse than before drinking the Tea. So there could be something to your idea Edward (but there is no definite research on this of course).

Whenever I do splurge on high-sugar, hi-GI foods, I definitely notice big improvements in brain energy though I need to keep eating that stuff pretty regularly of course to maintain that level of performance which is just very unhealthy.

#15 caston

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 01:34 PM

We should extract goodies from extremely long living plants and eat them.

#16 DukeNukem

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:17 PM

Edward, I take 200mg a day, and haven't noticed any ill-effects.

>>> We should extract goodies from extremely long living plants and eat them.

Any examples?
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#17 mikeinnaples

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 07:06 PM

Ancedotal - Switched my pycnogenol (400mg) from 200 morning / 200 evening to 400 morning only and I am experiencing a hard brain crash and sugar cravings by mid morning. I have been fiending on skittles since making the switch, and I never eat sweets.

Wondering if this is the cause .....

#18 DukeNukem

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 08:40 PM

Ancedotal - Switched my pycnogenol (400mg) from 200 morning / 200 evening to 400 morning only and I am experiencing a hard brain crash and sugar cravings by mid morning. I have been fiending on skittles since making the switch, and I never eat sweets.

Wondering if this is the cause .....


Also certainly, is my guess. You're taking too much!

#19 nameless

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Posted 22 May 2008 - 09:10 PM

Ancedotal - Switched my pycnogenol (400mg) from 200 morning / 200 evening to 400 morning only and I am experiencing a hard brain crash and sugar cravings by mid morning. I have been fiending on skittles since making the switch, and I never eat sweets.

Wondering if this is the cause .....



Have you tried any glucose tests to see for certain if pycnogenol is the cause? A little diabetes glucose tester thingy should work there. Or maybe even a regular blood test.

It would be interesting to see how dosages affect glucose levels, if at all. I also wonder if grapeseed would have the same effect or not.

#20 wydell

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 01:21 PM

Ancedotal - Switched my pycnogenol (400mg) from 200 morning / 200 evening to 400 morning only and I am experiencing a hard brain crash and sugar cravings by mid morning. I have been fiending on skittles since making the switch, and I never eat sweets.

Wondering if this is the cause .....


Also certainly, is my guess. You're taking too much!


I don't really expect anyone to know the answer to this question. But how do you know what is too much? Are you aware of a downside of larger doses of polyphenols besides the potential side effects mentioned. I say "potential" because who knows if it is the pyconogenol that is is causing the side effect. One way to find out, perhaps, is trials of different dosages and abstaining. I take large does of grape seed (300mg twice a day) and have never noticed a positive or negative effect, at least not one that I attributed to grape seed.

#21 mikeinnaples

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 02:09 PM

I haven't tested my glucose. I probably should.


Anyways, the reason for my posting is because I was pretty consistant with diet and supplements including timing and doseage. I was a little lazy when making my powder batches for the week and decided to switch the pycnogenol to once a day for myself and the wife. I began to notice the cravings, fog, and 'crash' feelings pretty quickly ...and seeing how it was the only real change I searched the forums and found this post and bumped it with my ancedotal evidence.

As I sit here eating a bag of skittles once again, I can help but think that before the split dose wasn't 'too much' especially taken around my heaviest meal (dinner) and my morning protein shake and whole wheat bagel. But when I switched it to a singel combined dose around my 'lightest' meal, I probably just overloaded myself.

Will be halving the dose for next weeks powder mixes.

#22 kenj

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Posted 23 May 2008 - 07:28 PM

I like to, when available, snack on a few grated carrots with a full tablespoon of apple cider vinegar and one crushed clove of garlic to stimulate a lowish blood sugar. I've tried having more carb/sugar calories to offset a drop in blood sugar from misc. sups, but IME it leads to an even harder depressive crash, eventually. Lowering the compounds' dosage sounds more sensible.

#23 NDM

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 06:02 PM

Am I wrong to infer from this discussion that taking small dose pycnogenol and/or grape seed extract and/or cinnamon extract before a heavy carb-rich lunch is likely to diminish the after-lunch sleepiness? That's one of my main problems: how to avoid the post-lunch dip in mental energy without changing the lunch itself (for pragmatic reasons - I always it out, and always carb-rich).

If these three supps delay carb metabolism, then they should be functionally equivalent with eating complex carbs (and the guy who wrote the Zone diet suggested to go for complex carbs as a way of reducing after-lunch lethargy).

#24 neogenic

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:20 PM

Is there any data that GSE has the same effect on blood sugar/glucose absorption. As the studies that were posted above I always thought they had nearly the same effects, just that pycnogenol was less effective. BTW, Enzogenol is a patented for of Pine Bark that NOW Foods uses and is a much better buy with quality equal to or greater than pycnogenol, in my opinion...given NOW's unsurpassed quality control and testing standards.

http://www.iherb.com...x?pid=3324&at=0

#25 neogenic

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:26 PM

This was an interesting study and maybe the benefits aren't as clear here...

Titre du document / Document title
Metabolic fate of glucose on 3T3-L1 adipocytes treated with grape seed-derived procyanidin extract (GSPE). Comparison with the effects of insulin
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
PINENT M. (1) ; BLADE M. C. (1) ; SALVADO M. J. (1) ; AROLA L. (1) ; ARDEVOL A. (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Department of Biochemistry and Biotechnology, Rovira i Virgili University, Tarragona, ESPAGNE
Résumé / Abstract
In this paper we investigate the effects of a grape seed procyanidin extract (GSPE) on the metabolic fate of glucose in adipocytes. Differentiated 3T3-L1 cells were treated with 140 mg/L GSPE or 100 nM insulin for a short period (1 h, acute treatment) or for a long period (15 h, chronic treatment). 2-Deoxy-[1-3H]glucose uptake and [1-14C]glucose incorporation into cells, glycogen, and lipid were measured. We found that GSPE mimicked the anabolic effects of insulin but there were several important differences. GSPE stimulated glycogen synthesis less than insulin. After chronic exposure, GSPE induced a higher incorporation of glucose into lipid, mainly due to the increase in glucose directed to glycerol synthesis. Our main conclusions, therefore, are that GSPE has insulinomimetic properties and activates glycogen and lipid synthesis. However, the differences between the effects of GSPE and the effects of insulin indicate that GSPE uses mechanisms complementary to those of insulin signaling pathways to bring about these effects.

#26 wydell

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 07:53 PM

I would love to see a study whereby pine bark beats grape seed in some attribute. If I saw that, I might go back to both gse and pine bark instead of gse alone.

Here is one article on the topic comparing the two. I don't think that there are a bunch of head to head studies out there.

http://www.grape-see...xtract-book.htm

#27 wydell

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 08:58 PM

I would love to see a study whereby pine bark beats grape seed in some attribute. If I saw that, I might go back to both gse and pine bark instead of gse alone.

Here is one article on the topic comparing the two. I don't think that there are a bunch of head to head studies out there.

http://www.grape-see...xtract-book.htm


uhh, I missed post #10.

#28 neogenic

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:23 PM

This study discussed below had a 24 point drop in blood glucose using pycnogenol, so hypoglycemia may happen. This is with diabetics, so a normalization could also be at work. 125mg/d...not sure what that'd work out to orally, or if you can even really compare them, but interesting nonetheless.
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Pycnogenol is well-known for its antioxidant benefits, its anti-inflammatory properties and its ability to inhibit enzymes that would otherwise lead to allergic reactions and the breakdown of proteins in connective tissue of joints, skin, tendons and ligaments. New research suggests Pycnogenol also has benefit in reducing painful menstruation and reducing blood pressure in diabetics.

In one recent study, researchers used 60 mg/d of Pycnogenol or placebo to treat 116 women, including those with dysmenorrhea (i.e., painful menstruation) and those with low menstrual pain (J Reprod Med. 2008;53:338-346). The women served as their own control group over the course of two menstrual cycles. Those women with low menstrual pain derived no benefit from Pycnogenol; however, those with dysmenorrhea experienced a significant benefit. They were able to reduce their intake of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), and had a reduction in the number of painful days from 2.1 days to 1.3 days. In addition, even when supplementation stopped, the pain did not return immediately.

In the area of diabetic health, another research team measured blood pressure in type-2 diabetic subjects given 125 mg/d of Pycnogenol or placebo for 12 weeks (Nutr Res. 2008;28(5):315-320). All subjects in the study were receiving anti-hypertension (blood pressure reducing) drugs known as angiotensin- converting enzyme [ACE] inhibitors. At the end of the intervention, 58.3 percent of subjects in the Pycnogenol group experienced blood pressure control (stable systolic reading) compared to 20.8 percent in the placebo group. In addition, use of ACE inhibitors was reduced by 50 percent in the group receiving Pycnogenol. Likewise, improvements in measures of diabetes control were also noted, with a fasting blood glucose reduction of 23.7 mg/dL in the Pycnogenol group, compared to only 5.7 mg/dL in the placebo group. Furthermore, a decrease of 11.6 mg/dL low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol was achieved in the Pycnogenol group, compared with placebo.
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#29 NDM

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 09:39 PM

biochemistry is not my thing...so again, back to practical bottom-lines: is it likely that taking pycnogenol before a heavy lunch would reduce post-lunch lethargy?

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#30 HaloTeK

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Posted 31 December 2008 - 01:01 AM

I've always developed a headache after a day or two of starting pycnogenol. I wonder if i'd have the same effect with Grape Seed Extract.

Edited by HaloTeK, 31 December 2008 - 01:01 AM.


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