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Methylation Mini Stack


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#1 mitkat

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 08:39 PM


Methylation time! This is something I haven't been directly focusing on. I've introduced 200mg SAMe into my regimen, and am going to hop up to 400mg next week. For proper methylation, I'm taking a full dose (3 pills/day) of AOR's Advanced B Complex:

1 capsule:
Benfotiamine......................................................... 55 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) ...................................................... 2.5 mg
B3 (Niacin from Inositol Hexanicotinate) .................... 115 mg
B5 (Pantethine) .................................................... 100 mg
B6 (Pyridoxal-5-phosphate)....................................... 33 mg
B12 (Methylcobalamin) ......................................... 647 mcg
Folic Acid .......................................................... 800 mcg
Biotin ............................................................... 300 mcg
Choline (Bitartrate) ............................................... 200 mg
Inositol (from Inositol, Inositol Hexanicotinate) .......... 128 mg

Along with my fairly balanced regime, would this be enough for proper methylation w/SAMe?

Yes, I know I'm starting a noob-style thread.

#2 stephen_b

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Posted 12 May 2008 - 10:00 PM

Here's another suggestion: DMG (taken with folate). Here's one product that bundles DMG, folate, and MB12.

Stephen

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#3 mitkat

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 12:22 AM

Thanks Stephen, looks interesting. I forgot to mention TMG as a possible supp.

#4 edward

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:45 AM

TMG is great stuff. It is actually approved as a prescription drug for reducing homocysteine. Better than DMG you get one extra methyl group. High enough doses and who needs SAMe either

edit: and best of all its cheap especially in powder form and as a bonus even tastes pretty good

Edited by edward, 13 May 2008 - 04:47 AM.


#5 Shepard

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 02:52 PM

Yeah, a lot of people use TMG + L-Methionine instead of SAMe.

#6 LIB

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 04:10 PM

Can someone explain what Methylation does? Or your goal?

#7 stephen_b

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 05:21 PM

There is also the question of whether DMG or TMG is a better source of methyl donors:

Q: So in your research,should MB-12, folinic acid, etc. "kick start" the methyl. cycle? What about TMG or DMG?

A: TMG/DMG is controversial. TMG (Betaine) does seem to help the blood level of the methylation-related metabolites, but it might actually be a hindrance to the cognitive benefits that the MB-12 otherwise would bring. Methionine synthase and BHMT (betaine hydroxymethyltransferase) are in competition when you introduce the TMG, it actually makes the body produce more BHMT. In the brain, the BHMT doesn’t help the dopamine stimulated methylation. If you “starve” the BHMT and let the MB-12 work its magic with methylation, that’s what really seems to help the dopamine.
...
Q: Would DMG be as bad as TMG in affecting the two enzymes you referred to earlier? My daughter tolerates DMG much better than TMG. Thank you.

A: DMG should be tolerated better – it doesn’t affect the enzymes and interfere with the dopamine mechanism. It’s TMG that could interfere.


I believe that his experience is anecdotal from his practice, not from a controlled study. For me, it tips the scales towards DMG. YMMV.

Stephen

Edited by stephen_b, 13 May 2008 - 05:23 PM.


#8 Mind

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 06:51 PM

Can someone explain what Methylation does? Or your goal?


Here is an old thread about epigenetic Methylation.

If anyone finds any current news about methylation and aging, remember to post in that thread. It has not been updated in awhile and seems like an important discussion to having.
  • Agree x 1

#9 Sasuke

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 02:01 AM

I know what methylation does, and there is no doubt it is quite important, but could somoene inform me how supplementing helps?

A quick google said that SAMe acts as a methyl donor, and is made by your body naturally.

Have their been studies that suggested that there is a deficit in the availability of methyl groups when they are needed? I'm unaware one way or another, but my guess would be no (based on how important methylation is, if there was a deficit it would create auspicious problems, and I haven't heard of any).

I also wonder about the aim of doing this when it appears to be completley unspecific in the provision of itself as a methyl donor. Methylation is a key part of gene expression regulation which can be good and bad. E.g., if the gene coding for cortisol receptors is methylated unnnecessarily (which has been shown to happen in mice when they are abused), you become less able to turn off your stress response.

Going back to whether or not there is a deficit in the availability of methyl groups when needed, if the answer is yes, and to a significant degree, then I understand the supplementation. If it is no, then SAMe will likely have no net effect. SAMe is made naturally, and if there were an excess of SAMe through supplementation then there would probably be a feedback and your body would produce less SAMe until the supplement is used up.

If it does have a net increase, however, SAMe should increase the methylation equally through out the body. Wouldn't that be introducing a random effect into the regulation of all of the methylation regulatory mechanisms which are active at the time you take SAMe? Perhaps that would even cause a minor case of "dysdifferentiation".

#10 david ellis

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Posted 02 June 2008 - 03:46 AM

Methylation time!


I am monitoring my homocysteine levels and supplementing to keep them down. Is there any advantage to doing more than that?

#11 krillin

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 12:33 AM

Have their been studies that suggested that there is a deficit in the availability of methyl groups when they are needed?
[. . .]
If it does have a net increase, however, SAMe should increase the methylation equally through out the body. Wouldn't that be introducing a random effect into the regulation of all of the methylation regulatory mechanisms which are active at the time you take SAMe? Perhaps that would even cause a minor case of "dysdifferentiation".

Supplementation with the methyl group donor trimethylglycine helps. And I would hope that the body has control mechanisms to prevent harmful use of spare methyl groups. The second abstract says that the local hypermethylation found in tumor cells is preceded by global hypomethylation caused by inadequate nutrition. I searched for "global hypermethylation" and got 6 hits, none related to supplementation. One cause is breathing airborne particulates. Still, to be safe I'd only take enough TMG to get my homocysteine into the desired range. Mine was actually flagged as being too low last time, so I cut back to 500 mg. I think I was taking either 2 or 3 g at the time.

J Nutr. 2006 Jan;136(1):34-8.
Erratum in: J Nutr. 2007 Apr;137(4):1124.
Orally administered betaine has an acute and dose-dependent effect on serum betaine and plasma homocysteine concentrations in healthy humans.
Schwab U, Törrönen A, Meririnne E, Saarinen M, Alfthan G, Aro A, Uusitupa M.
Department of Clinical Nutrition, University of Kuopio, Finland. Ursula.Schwab@uku.fi

Betaine, i.e., trimethylglycine, is linked to homocysteine metabolism. A 3-mo daily betaine supplementation decreased even normal plasma total homocysteine (tHcy) concentrations in humans. The pharmacokinetic characteristics and metabolism of betaine in humans have not been investigated in detail. The aim of this study was to assess the pharmacokinetics of orally administered betaine and its acute effect on plasma tHcy concentrations. Healthy volunteers (n = 10; 3 men, 7 women) with normal body weight (mean +/- SD, 69.5 +/- 17.0 kg), 40.8 +/- 12.4 y old, participated in the study. The betaine doses were 1, 3, and 6 g. The doses were mixed with 150 mL of orange juice and ingested after a 12-h overnight fast by each volunteer according to a randomized double-blind crossover design. Blood samples were drawn for 24 h and a 24-h urine collection was performed. Orally administered betaine had an immediate and dose-dependent effect on serum betaine concentration. Single doses of 3 and 6 g lowered plasma tHcy concentrations (P = 0.019 and P < 0.001, respectively), unlike the 1-g dose. After the highest dose, the concentrations remained low during the 24 h of monitoring. The change in plasma tHcy concentration was linearly associated with betaine dose (P = 0.006) and serum betaine concentration (R2 = 0.17, P = 0.025). The absorption and elimination of betaine were dose dependent. The urinary excretion of betaine seemed to increase with an increasing betaine dose, although a very small proportion of ingested betaine was excreted via urine. In conclusion, a single dose of orally administered betaine had an acute and dose-dependent effect on serum betaine concentration and resulted in lowered plasma tHcy concentrations within 2 h in healthy subjects.

PMID: 16365055

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Nov;229(10):988-95.
DNA methylation, cancer susceptibility, and nutrient interactions.
Davis CD, Uthus EO.
Nutritional Sciences Research Group, Division of Cancer Prevention, National Cancer Institute, 6130 Executive Boulevard, Suite 3159, Rockville, MD 20892-7328, USA. davisci@mail.nih.gov.

DNA methylation is an important epigenetic mechanism of transcriptional control. DNA methylation plays an essential role in maintaining cellular function, and changes in methylation patterns may contribute to the development of cancer. Aberrant methylation of DNA (global hypomethylation accompanied by region-specific hypermethylation) is frequently found in tumor cells. Global hypomethylation can result in chromosome instability, and hypermethylation has been associated with the inaction of tumor suppressor genes. Preclinical and clinical studies suggest that part of the cancer-protective effects associated with several bioactive food components may relate to DNA methylation patterns. Dietary factors that are involved in one-carbon metabolism provide the most compelling data for the interaction of nutrients and DNA methylation because they influence the supply of methyl groups, and therefore the biochemical pathways of methylation processes. These nutrients include folate, vitamin B(12), vitamin B(6), methionine, and choline. However, looking at individual nutrients may be too simplistic. Dietary methyl (folate, choline, and methionine) deficiency in combination causes decreased tissue S-adeno-sylmethionine, global DNA hypomethylation, hepatic steatosis, cirrhosis, and ultimately hepatic tumorigenesis in rodents in the absence of carcinogen treatment. Other dietary components such as vitamin B(12), alcohol, and selenium may modify the response to inadequate dietary folate.

PMID: 15522834

#12 david ellis

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 02:49 AM

Still, to be safe I'd only take enough TMG to get my homocysteine into the desired range. Mine was actually flagged as being too low last time, so I cut back to 500 mg. I think I was taking either 2 or 3 g at the time.


The labcorp reference range is now(5/2008) 0-15 for homocysteine. My prior tests have a reference range of 4.2-11.4 for 2006 and 4.3-15 for 2005. I believe that zero, or close to zero is a good goal. Close to zero, is good because it is a good indication that too much is not being taken. I was puzzled why using homocysteine tests weren't mentioned in this thread as a guideline for evaluating a stack.

#13 mitkat

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 08:54 PM

Still, to be safe I'd only take enough TMG to get my homocysteine into the desired range. Mine was actually flagged as being too low last time, so I cut back to 500 mg. I think I was taking either 2 or 3 g at the time.


The labcorp reference range is now(5/2008) 0-15 for homocysteine. My prior tests have a reference range of 4.2-11.4 for 2006 and 4.3-15 for 2005. I believe that zero, or close to zero is a good goal. Close to zero, is good because it is a good indication that too much is not being taken. I was puzzled why using homocysteine tests weren't mentioned in this thread as a guideline for evaluating a stack.


I am getting more bloodwork done soon, and didn't start the SAMe yet for benchmarking purposes. This should be interesting, results will be posted next week.

#14 krillin

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 08:59 PM

Mine was actually flagged as being too low last time, so I cut back to 500 mg. I think I was taking either 2 or 3 g at the time.

I backed off too much.

The actual figures are

2007: 1.5 g TMG -> 3.0 microM homocysteine
2008: 500 mg -> 5.6 microM

#15 Luna

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Posted 26 June 2008 - 04:24 PM

Wasn't Methylation the thing that reversed aged mouse skin?

#16 quintin3265

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:49 PM

Methylation time! This is something I haven't been directly focusing on. I've introduced 200mg SAMe into my regimen, and am going to hop up to 400mg next week. For proper methylation, I'm taking a full dose (3 pills/day) of AOR's Advanced B Complex:

1 capsule:
Benfotiamine......................................................... 55 mg
B2 (Riboflavin) ...................................................... 2.5 mg
B3 (Niacin from Inositol Hexanicotinate) .................... 115 mg
B5 (Pantethine) .................................................... 100 mg
B6 (Pyridoxal-5-phosphate)....................................... 33 mg
B12 (Methylcobalamin) ......................................... 647 mcg
Folic Acid .......................................................... 800 mcg
Biotin ............................................................... 300 mcg
Choline (Bitartrate) ............................................... 200 mg
Inositol (from Inositol, Inositol Hexanicotinate) .......... 128 mg

Along with my fairly balanced regime, would this be enough for proper methylation w/SAMe?

Yes, I know I'm starting a noob-style thread.


SAMe is bad stuff and its safety has not been adequately demonstrated in controlled studies. I haven't heard anything good about it in anyone I know who has taken it, including myself. While the physical effects were positive, the psychiatric effects of SAMe more than outweigh the physical.

My aunt tried SAMe, and decided to stop after a month because she was feeling jittery and was losing a lot of weight. A friend who took SAMe said that while it improved his concentration, he couldn't get to sleep. For me, SAMe induced mania, and I was incoherent for four months and nobody could figure out what was wrong. None of the doctors had any experience with the drug to know its possible side-effects. I lost my job and reputation, and nearly committed suicide. It was two years until I recovered. I had never had any sort of manic episode before taking SAMe.

If you research the medical literature carefully, you'll find that there is quite a bit of evidence that SAMe has a high incidence of negative psychiatric events, even in people with no history of mental health problems. These are not issues that go away when the drug leaves your system. Mania and depression have been shown to cause permanent cognitive dysfunction even after recovery. And if you encounter bad effects, doctors aren't knowledgable about these supplements and will not be able to diagnose correctly.

The vitamins you listed there seem like a great addition to any regimen, but stay away from the SAMe until sufficent evidence exists to prove its safety.

#17 mitkat

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 08:33 PM

SAMe is bad stuff and its safety has not been adequately demonstrated in controlled studies. I haven't heard anything good about it in anyone I know who has taken it, including myself. While the physical effects were positive, the psychiatric effects of SAMe more than outweigh the physical.

My aunt tried SAMe, and decided to stop after a month because she was feeling jittery and was losing a lot of weight. A friend who took SAMe said that while it improved his concentration, he couldn't get to sleep. For me, SAMe induced mania, and I was incoherent for four months and nobody could figure out what was wrong. None of the doctors had any experience with the drug to know its possible side-effects. I lost my job and reputation, and nearly committed suicide. It was two years until I recovered. I had never had any sort of manic episode before taking SAMe.

If you research the medical literature carefully, you'll find that there is quite a bit of evidence that SAMe has a high incidence of negative psychiatric events, even in people with no history of mental health problems. These are not issues that go away when the drug leaves your system. Mania and depression have been shown to cause permanent cognitive dysfunction even after recovery. And if you encounter bad effects, doctors aren't knowledgable about these supplements and will not be able to diagnose correctly.

The vitamins you listed there seem like a great addition to any regimen, but stay away from the SAMe until sufficent evidence exists to prove its safety.


Quintin, sorry to hear about all that SAMe did to you. Since I started this thread, I have been looking at my box of SAMe, read some studies further, not taking the TMG and am still sitting on my homocystene blood requisition form ;) I have across strong experiences, both positive and negative and have decided that it's not worth the risk, even if a minor one. I take a fair amount of supplements as is, and this may indeed be a case of if ain't broke, don't fix it. Thanks for sharing your story.

#18 Shepard

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:03 PM

SAMe keeps my mania at a steady high. It's the spikes and valleys that get you. Just like insulin.

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#19 quintin3265

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Posted 03 July 2008 - 01:34 PM

SAMe is bad stuff and its safety has not been adequately demonstrated in controlled studies. I haven't heard anything good about it in anyone I know who has taken it, including myself. While the physical effects were positive, the psychiatric effects of SAMe more than outweigh the physical.

My aunt tried SAMe, and decided to stop after a month because she was feeling jittery and was losing a lot of weight. A friend who took SAMe said that while it improved his concentration, he couldn't get to sleep. For me, SAMe induced mania, and I was incoherent for four months and nobody could figure out what was wrong. None of the doctors had any experience with the drug to know its possible side-effects. I lost my job and reputation, and nearly committed suicide. It was two years until I recovered. I had never had any sort of manic episode before taking SAMe.

If you research the medical literature carefully, you'll find that there is quite a bit of evidence that SAMe has a high incidence of negative psychiatric events, even in people with no history of mental health problems. These are not issues that go away when the drug leaves your system. Mania and depression have been shown to cause permanent cognitive dysfunction even after recovery. And if you encounter bad effects, doctors aren't knowledgable about these supplements and will not be able to diagnose correctly.

The vitamins you listed there seem like a great addition to any regimen, but stay away from the SAMe until sufficent evidence exists to prove its safety.


Quintin, sorry to hear about all that SAMe did to you. Since I started this thread, I have been looking at my box of SAMe, read some studies further, not taking the TMG and am still sitting on my homocystene blood requisition form :) I have across strong experiences, both positive and negative and have decided that it's not worth the risk, even if a minor one. I take a fair amount of supplements as is, and this may indeed be a case of if ain't broke, don't fix it. Thanks for sharing your story.


I found it amazing how the companies that sell SAMe try to hide the frequent side effect of mania with the generic warning "do not take if you have bipolar disorder." I didn't have bipolar disorder when I took SAMe, but that didn't stop this incident, and indeed studies seem to show that mania occurs from SAMe even in people with perfect health.

I went to a doctor and he said "well, you have bipolar disorder because a manic episode means that the drug 'unmasked' your 'bipolar tendencies,' and you would have had one eventually anyway." But I never had a manic episode before taking SAMe, and I haven't had one since. The most obvious explanation, that the drug was the cause, somehow seemed to get "lost" by the doctors and by the producers of SAMe.

With regards to positive and negative experiences, I think most people should keep in mind that when people have positive experiences with a substance, they are usually mildly beneficial. But when someone has a negative experience, it's life-destroying, and probably so bad that it would take 25 or 50 positive experiences to outweigh it. Mania, I'm convinced, is one of the worst mental states imaginable, far worse than depression. Imagine feeling down about something, but multiply those negative feelings by 100, and then add the inability to keep any thought in your head for more than two words, with your memory so bad that you do things over and over because you forget that you did them before. Then, imagine that you can't think well enough to determine whether or not you're making a fool of yourself to others, and so you stay home so as not to say something stupid. Finally, imagine seeing things after not sleeping for entire weeks at a time.

As a side benefit, by not taking the drug, you'll save yourself a lot of cash. It's extraordinarily expensive, and can run as high as $2/pill.

Edited by quintin3265, 03 July 2008 - 01:50 PM.





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