17 replies to this topic

[John_Ventureville]

While waiting in a very long and slowly moving USPS line, I got to talking with a hospice social worker who was next to me. She has specialized for the last ten years in dealing with those who are essentially on their deathbed. I told her about cryonics and how Alcor had a contract with a hospice near them so their members could be quickly taken care of when death was approaching. She was quite fascinated by this, but told me she had seen several hundred people pass away and based on those observations is convinced there is life after death and that even before "moving on" these individuals were getting a glimpse of it (based on the expression in their faces and things they said). The social worker viewed cryonicists and others who heavily resist death as "arm wrestling" God (she said this playfully). I cleared up her misconceptions about cryonics only being affordable for the very wealthy and also shared that Alcor gave no guarantees about the process succeeding. But she did immediately grasp that with the current rate of technological progress, within a century or two there will probably be no problem bringing these people back. I would say she was in her early sixties. Any thoughts about this conversation?

John Grigg

[Shannon Vyff]

I've talked in depth with a hospice worker who came into our home to help with palliative care at the end of my mother-in-law's life. She was not religious, but not as interested in cryonics as some others (she was young, my age) I attributed this to her view that death is so sad, so hard to deal with and so final. She spends time counseling the grieving loved ones, after someone has passed away. We got along great, I spent more time talking to her about breast-feeding, pregnancy and parenting since she was newly married and planning on having children. I have talked with two other people that I know of, who work in hospice (not just elder-care, I've talked with a several people who work in that field) and only one person was highly religious. My response to religious people, is that God may allow it to work, and they can do more work for God (or insert, their respective belief) if it does. You can still believe in life after death, and think it is a great place that you'll see someday, but you'll see it when God wants you there, God may want you do do more work on Earth first.

I get the misconceptions about cryonics being only for the wealthy all the time, and it is hard to refute with people who work with the very poor. 28,000 out of life insurance ( which people struggling to get food, sometimes can't afford even if it is only 10 dollars a month ) that money, coming out of a small amount like 50,000 or even 30,000 people, if they could afford the life insurance--would want that money to be going to their children, or a loved one... I'd say cryonics is for the middle class, even the lower middle class-but certainly not for a large population of the Earth.

I don't know if you will follow up with her, but I talk to so many people--I've gotten used to the fact that many will be interested, but not enough to actually sign up (which amazes me, with the amounts people spend on supplements, you'd think that segment of the population would be signing up for the chance that cryonics would work, since they'd be spending a lot less on it that they do over several decades on their supplements, and a middle class person could do both easily, as well as leave money to loved ones...)

[cyborgdreamer]

The social worker viewed cryonicists and others who heavily resist death as "arm wrestling" God (she said this playfully).

If God exists and wants me to go to some afterlife, He can give me solid scientific evidence that it exists. It makes me angry that God would force me into the grave against my will, especially after giving me every reason to think that dead people vanish into oblivion.

But she did immediately grasp that with the current rate of technological progress, within a century or two there will probably be no problem bringing these people back.

Out of curiousity, did she believe that cryonicists would go to heaven and then come back or that they never go there to begin with?

[VictorBjoerk]

I've talked in depth with a hospice worker who came into our home to help with palliative care at the end of my mother-in-law's life. She was not religious, but not as interested in cryonics as some others (she was young, my age) I attributed this to her view that death is so sad, so hard to deal with and so final. She spends time counseling the grieving loved ones, after someone has passed away. We got along great, I spent more time talking to her about breast-feeding, pregnancy and parenting since she was newly married and planning on having children. I have talked with two other people that I know of, who work in hospice (not just elder-care, I've talked with a several people who work in that field) and only one person was highly religious. My response to religious people, is that God may allow it to work, and they can do more work for God (or insert, their respective belief) if it does. You can still believe in life after death, and think it is a great place that you'll see someday, but you'll see it when God wants you there, God may want you do do more work on Earth first.

I get the misconceptions about cryonics being only for the wealthy all the time, and it is hard to refute with people who work with the very poor. 28,000 out of life insurance ( which people struggling to get food, sometimes can't afford even if it is only 10 dollars a month ) that money, coming out of a small amount like 50,000 or even 30,000 people, if they could afford the life insurance--would want that money to be going to their children, or a loved one... I'd say cryonics is for the middle class, even the lower middle class-but certainly not for a large population of the Earth.

I don't know if you will follow up with her, but I talk to so many people--I've gotten used to the fact that many will be interested, but not enough to actually sign up (which amazes me, with the amounts people spend on supplements, you'd think that segment of the population would be signing up for the chance that cryonics would work, since they'd be spending a lot less on it that they do over several decades on their supplements, and a middle class person could do both easily, as well as leave money to loved ones...)

Shannon, As far as I've read you are active in church and signed up for cryonics. I've personally been active in the local church as well and I've talked with a lot of christian people about cryonics.(In april this year I lived for 2 weeks in a monastery in Scotland where I came to talk to many interesting people about it)
I just want to ask,do you really believe in a afterlife? if you do what motivates you to sign up for cryonics?
Many priests etc. I've talked to seem to dislike the idea of cryonics a lot thinking it is something humans shouldn't do at all if it works. but on the other hand they dislike suffering in humans.

It seem to me quite uncommon to both have a christian view of life and death and still having signed up for the possibility for life after "death".

[Shannon Vyff]

I have studied many religions, and love to take the wisdom from them all--through science we can not conclusively say what happens after death, I personally would never 'believe' I knew what happens after we die. I have strong suspicions, but being signed for cryonics allows me to either see if it will work, and I get more time on Earth to learn, live, and do what good deeds I can, or I find out there is some sort of after-life, or it just doesn't really matter at all, with no difference to me since I'm dead

I used to get angry with strongly, conservatively religious people--but now I just accept that it makes them happy, and being happy is important. I empathize with them, and talk to them in their 'language'. No matter if they think they'll go to heaven and come back, or not get to go for a while, or they think that it will send them to hell for defying God (it being cryonics, or ending aging) I just talk about how God has the final decisions, such as what technology has been allowed to advance so far.

I grew up Presbyterian, then became quite agnostic, and then a secular humanist UU, I think I've delved into meditation on every religion and seen the profoundness contained therein, and felt the love and happiness that it gives the people who live that way of life--there are many good ways to live life, I'm hoping since we already live longer than a 1000 years ago, that within the next 1000 years we'll keep living longer and by a million years, have advanced our species to a species that has ended aging, lives within and influences the universe, for good of course

[forever freedom]

So Shannon, since were talking about it, you frequent your church more for the lifestyle than for the faith? I'm sure you must have some faith, but you're not really much certain about God and the afterlife? Because most religious people i speak to look like robots completely dismissing the possibilities that what they believe in may not be true, eliminating the need for cryonics since they will go to heaven when they die.

[Shannon Vyff]

I do not discount there being a God, and a faith can mean you put your life into God's hands, it is God's will if you continue to live via cryonics, to do more of God's work.

My church is a liberal church, so they are more open to the idea of cryonics and are a highly educated religious group as the amount of average degrees and such. (UU kids have the highest SAT levels, than other religions per what is gathered from the religion self reporting section on the SAT)

[forever freedom]

I do not discount there being a God, and a faith can mean you put your life into God's hands, it is God's will if you continue to live via cryonics, to do more of God's work.

Well i'd still rather go to heaven than to stay on earth through cryonics

My church is a liberal church, so they are more open to the idea of cryonics and are a highly educated religious group as the amount of average degrees and such. (UU kids have the highest SAT levels, than other religions per what is gathered from the religion self reporting section on the SAT)

Nice, nice!

[Cody]

I do not discount there being a God, and a faith can mean you put your life into God's hands, it is God's will if you continue to live via cryonics, to do more of God's work.

Well i'd still rather go to heaven than to stay on earth through cryonics

My church is a liberal church, so they are more open to the idea of cryonics and are a highly educated religious group as the amount of average degrees and such. (UU kids have the highest SAT levels, than other religions per what is gathered from the religion self reporting section on the SAT)

Nice, nice!

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

[missminni]

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

Death is a psychological moment. That's why when my mom passed I wanted her to be in my arms so she wouldn't be afraid. I told her what an amazing mom she had been and made jokes we used to laugh about and sang songs she used to sing to me and I told her not to be afraid, that she would see all her family that had gone before her and that I would be with her one day too. I asked if she saw a light...and she nodded yes, and I said mommy go to the light it will heal you, and as I said that she began to glow a white light like a halo, and her eyes turned bright blue (they were hazel brown) and her skin became pink like a baby,and a little crystal of a tear fell from the corner of her eye, and I said, and to this day I dont know where the words came from, but I said Mommy that's a tear of joy not sadness. And she nodded and pursed her lips to kiss me and as I kissed her I said Mommy that's not a kiss goodbye that's a kiss of gratitude and she nodded again. By this time the hospice nurse had fallen to the ground crying Jesus's name and my brother was standing there with his mouth hanging open. She did a shimmy up and down her body like she was shedding a skin and then glowing ever brighter she pursed her lips again and as I kissed them she sighed gently and passed, her last breath in me. It was beautiful. Death was beautiful.
She smelled like roses. The hospice nurse called her husband to bring their infant son over so she could bring him in the room where my mom
passed. She said she was at the deathbeds of many, but never saw anything like that. I believe my mother was enlightened, I believe the
buddhists call it grounded enlightenment, before death. It was absolutely breathtaking. As I fell across her body I cried she not only gave me life, but the knowledge of life after death too. I have no doubt. She's visited me often for a few years after, showing me how she could dance and do cartwheels again, and she was so happy and peaceful and wise. So wise. I haven't heard from her for a few years now. Maybe she's reincarnated.
I think reincarnation is consistent with the laws of nature, so to me, it makes total sense. I don't want to die, I would like to live forever, but if death should come, I know I will not fear. Death is not the enemy. Fear is.

[Cody]

Dude, you're gonna make me cry. That was beautiful. I'm really sorry to hear your mom passed. I'm gonna cry my eyes out when my mom passes.

[forever freedom]

I do not discount there being a God, and a faith can mean you put your life into God's hands, it is God's will if you continue to live via cryonics, to do more of God's work.

Well i'd still rather go to heaven than to stay on earth through cryonics

My church is a liberal church, so they are more open to the idea of cryonics and are a highly educated religious group as the amount of average degrees and such. (UU kids have the highest SAT levels, than other religions per what is gathered from the religion self reporting section on the SAT)

Nice, nice!

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

Ah these people that only look at the last posts of a topic without reading it all. I didn't say i believe in heaven or god or anything related...

[Shannon Vyff]

that is a beautiful story of passing, I had a similar experience holding my mother in law when she passed...I was still sad though, didn't feel joyous--was sort of mad for a few days that I couldn't have kept her alive longer, but the death was peaceful, I was able to tell her how much I thanked her, what a wonderful mother she had been, how grateful I was that my children loved her--my two and a half year old was there too, her siblings were at school, she just crawled into bed with grammy as grammy's shallow breathing gave out to the glassy peace. My two and a half year old got up when she had passed, as the body changed-she cried a little and gave Grammy a kiss then got off the bed and went with me to a different room...

[missminni]

that is a beautiful story of passing, I had a similar experience holding my mother in law when she passed...I was still sad though, didn't feel joyous--was sort of mad for a few days that I couldn't have kept her alive longer, but the death was peaceful, I was able to tell her how much I thanked her, what a wonderful mother she had been, how grateful I was that my children loved her--my two and a half year old was there too, her siblings were at school, she just crawled into bed with grammy as grammy's shallow breathing gave out to the glassy peace. My two and a half year old got up when she had passed, as the body changed-she cried a little and gave Grammy a kiss then got off the bed and went with me to a different room...

I think its important for children to be exposed to that kind of experience. To see life and death
as a continuum. Not an end and a beginning. I so feared death as a child. I was always shielded from it too. Never taken to
funerals. It was a scary dark thing that happened to people in secret somewhere. I was even afraid to look at a dead body.
But when my Mom passed, it was enlightening...literally. My own daughter, at 28 years old, refused to come to say goodbye to her,
so repulsed was she by the idea. How sad for her. She missed a miracle.
As for being sad, I am always a tear away from sobbing when I think of my Mom. But that is because I miss her so.
Her passing was an affirmation of the eternal light of the spirit/energy we all have within us that unites us with the creator.
We really are one.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

Death is a psychological moment. That's why when my mom passed I wanted her to be in my arms so she wouldn't be afraid. I told her what an amazing mom she had been and made jokes we used to laugh about and sang songs she used to sing to me and I told her not to be afraid, that she would see all her family that had gone before her and that I would be with her one day too. I asked if she saw a light...and she nodded yes, and I said mommy go to the light it will heal you, and as I said that she began to glow a white light like a halo, and her eyes turned bright blue (they were hazel brown) and her skin became pink like a baby,and a little crystal of a tear fell from the corner of her eye, and I said, and to this day I dont know where the words came from, but I said Mommy that's a tear of joy not sadness. And she nodded and pursed her lips to kiss me and as I kissed her I said Mommy that's not a kiss goodbye that's a kiss of gratitude and she nodded again. By this time the hospice nurse had fallen to the ground crying Jesus's name and my brother was standing there with his mouth hanging open. She did a shimmy up and down her body like she was shedding a skin and then glowing ever brighter she pursed her lips again and as I kissed them she sighed gently and passed, her last breath in me. It was beautiful. Death was beautiful.
She smelled like roses. The hospice nurse called her husband to bring their infant son over so she could bring him in the room where my mom
passed. She said she was at the deathbeds of many, but never saw anything like that. I believe my mother was enlightened, I believe the
buddhists call it grounded enlightenment, before death. It was absolutely breathtaking. As I fell across her body I cried she not only gave me life, but the knowledge of life after death too. I have no doubt. She's visited me often for a few years after, showing me how she could dance and do cartwheels again, and she was so happy and peaceful and wise. So wise. I haven't heard from her for a few years now. Maybe she's reincarnated.
I think reincarnation is consistent with the laws of nature, so to me, it makes total sense. I don't want to die, I would like to live forever, but if death should come, I know I will not fear. Death is not the enemy. Fear is.

Missminni,

You've got me blubbering like a baby. Nobody here wants to die, but if it's going to happen, you can only wish for it to happen like that. In any case, that was very beautiful - thank you for sharing.

[missminni]

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

Death is a psychological moment. That's why when my mom passed I wanted her to be in my arms so she wouldn't be afraid. I told her what an amazing mom she had been and made jokes we used to laugh about and sang songs she used to sing to me and I told her not to be afraid, that she would see all her family that had gone before her and that I would be with her one day too. I asked if she saw a light...and she nodded yes, and I said mommy go to the light it will heal you, and as I said that she began to glow a white light like a halo, and her eyes turned bright blue (they were hazel brown) and her skin became pink like a baby,and a little crystal of a tear fell from the corner of her eye, and I said, and to this day I dont know where the words came from, but I said Mommy that's a tear of joy not sadness. And she nodded and pursed her lips to kiss me and as I kissed her I said Mommy that's not a kiss goodbye that's a kiss of gratitude and she nodded again. By this time the hospice nurse had fallen to the ground crying Jesus's name and my brother was standing there with his mouth hanging open. She did a shimmy up and down her body like she was shedding a skin and then glowing ever brighter she pursed her lips again and as I kissed them she sighed gently and passed, her last breath in me. It was beautiful. Death was beautiful.
She smelled like roses. The hospice nurse called her husband to bring their infant son over so she could bring him in the room where my mom
passed. She said she was at the deathbeds of many, but never saw anything like that. I believe my mother was enlightened, I believe the
buddhists call it grounded enlightenment, before death. It was absolutely breathtaking. As I fell across her body I cried she not only gave me life, but the knowledge of life after death too. I have no doubt. She's visited me often for a few years after, showing me how she could dance and do cartwheels again, and she was so happy and peaceful and wise. So wise. I haven't heard from her for a few years now. Maybe she's reincarnated.
I think reincarnation is consistent with the laws of nature, so to me, it makes total sense. I don't want to die, I would like to live forever, but if death should come, I know I will not fear. Death is not the enemy. Fear is.

Missminni,

You've got me blubbering like a baby. Nobody here wants to die, but if it's going to happen, you can only wish for it to happen like that. In any case, that was very beautiful - thank you for sharing.

Thank you for appreciating it.
My mom passed 9 years ago this coming Aug 15th. Anytime I've shared that story I knew
I lifted fear and replaced it with wonder. Although I feared death as a child, my intellect told me that if I look to the laws of nature, death cannot be final, but merely a transition to another state of being. Just as plants die in winter and return in spring
their energy contained in the seed they leave behind. In physics the law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another or transferred from one body to another, but the total amount of energy remains constant. So how can we cease to be if we are energetic beings?
Although I embraced the concept intellectually, it was my Mom's passing that affirmed it without doubt. I saw the light, the light we all have within, and it is beautiful to behold.
I believe eternal life is a physical reality that can and will be proven by scientific analysis.
As Einstein said:
"every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive."

[Cody]

Well of course you'd rather go to heaven. The question is, does heaven even exist? I mean, wouldn't you be mad if when you died, nothing happened? No, you wouldn't. Because you'd be dead! GONE! You wouldn't feel anything let alone regret. I'm not saying that heaven and hell doesn't exist. Because no one really knows.

Anyways, try to enjoy life ect. ect.

-Cody

Death is a psychological moment. That's why when my mom passed I wanted her to be in my arms so she wouldn't be afraid. I told her what an amazing mom she had been and made jokes we used to laugh about and sang songs she used to sing to me and I told her not to be afraid, that she would see all her family that had gone before her and that I would be with her one day too. I asked if she saw a light...and she nodded yes, and I said mommy go to the light it will heal you, and as I said that she began to glow a white light like a halo, and her eyes turned bright blue (they were hazel brown) and her skin became pink like a baby,and a little crystal of a tear fell from the corner of her eye, and I said, and to this day I dont know where the words came from, but I said Mommy that's a tear of joy not sadness. And she nodded and pursed her lips to kiss me and as I kissed her I said Mommy that's not a kiss goodbye that's a kiss of gratitude and she nodded again. By this time the hospice nurse had fallen to the ground crying Jesus's name and my brother was standing there with his mouth hanging open. She did a shimmy up and down her body like she was shedding a skin and then glowing ever brighter she pursed her lips again and as I kissed them she sighed gently and passed, her last breath in me. It was beautiful. Death was beautiful.
She smelled like roses. The hospice nurse called her husband to bring their infant son over so she could bring him in the room where my mom
passed. She said she was at the deathbeds of many, but never saw anything like that. I believe my mother was enlightened, I believe the
buddhists call it grounded enlightenment, before death. It was absolutely breathtaking. As I fell across her body I cried she not only gave me life, but the knowledge of life after death too. I have no doubt. She's visited me often for a few years after, showing me how she could dance and do cartwheels again, and she was so happy and peaceful and wise. So wise. I haven't heard from her for a few years now. Maybe she's reincarnated.
I think reincarnation is consistent with the laws of nature, so to me, it makes total sense. I don't want to die, I would like to live forever, but if death should come, I know I will not fear. Death is not the enemy. Fear is.

Missminni,

You've got me blubbering like a baby. Nobody here wants to die, but if it's going to happen, you can only wish for it to happen like that. In any case, that was very beautiful - thank you for sharing.

Your mother raised a very wise person. I bet she'd be sooo damn proud of you.

Live well, man. As beautiful as death can be, I still pursue the possibility of a longer life than any other generation before us.

[missminni]

Your mother raised a very wise person. I bet she'd be sooo damn proud of you.

Live well, man. As beautiful as death can be, I still pursue the possibility of a longer life than any other generation before us.

Thanks.
Me too. I'm planning on being here a long long time.