14 replies to this topic

[nameless]

I think I may have a zinc deficiency, as I recently tried Zinc Status and sort of failed... no metallic or unusual taste when I tried it. I've also been getting a lot of colds the past year or two, and am also on an ace inhibitor (altace), which may decrease zinc levels.

First, how accurate is Zinc Status in determining a deficiency? Would a serum zinc test be more accurate?

And what type of zinc should I use to correct the deficiency? There are several flavors... albion chelate best? Or maybe zinc picolinate? Or perhaps opti-zinc?

Would something like this: http://www.iherb.com...c...id=278&at=0
(Jarrow Zinc Balance)

be a good choice, maybe at two capsules/daily for several months, then retest zinc status? Or would supplementing with methionine be a bad idea, even in small quantities, due to that methionine restriction/life extension theory?

I am also unsure if I need to supplement with copper or not, before correcting the zinc deficiency.

Any advice appreciated.

[balance]

Go for zinc citrate or l-optizinc. Don't take it at the same time as phytic acid containing foods. I would always take copper at a 10:1 ratio of zinc to copper. Good bets are life extension's only trace minerals or AOR's zinc copper Balance product.

[krillin]

I use zinc citrate. Do a dietary analysis before taking any copper. The top quartile of serum copper got smacked in the Paris Prospective Study. How much would put you in the top quartile? In this review it's above 1.86 mg/day.

Data from the surveys on which these calculations were based were pooled so the shape of the distribution of 849 diets could be defined and to allow comparison of diets to the revised standard [1]. The figure reveals positive skewness, but only 3.2% of the diets exceed 3.0 mg/day; 61% are less than 1.5 mg/day and approximately one-third are less than 1 mg. The middle quartiles ranged from 0.91 to 1.86 mg/day. This distribution is representative of diets made from conventional foods in Belgium, Canada, UK and the US [7].

LEF's Only Trace Minerals and AOR's Zinc - Copper Balance are only for the suicidal. 136% of the UL for manganese in LEF's! And their 2 mg of copper puts you in the kill zone before you even add in what you get in food.

Epidemiology. 2006 May;17(3):308-14.
Zinc, copper, and magnesium and risks for all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular mortality.
Leone N, Courbon D, Ducimetiere P, Zureik M.
Unit 744 National Institute of Health and Medical Research (INSERM), Lille Pasteur Institute, Lille, France.

BACKGROUND: Experimental data suggest that zinc, copper, and magnesium are involved in carcinogenesis and atherogenesis. Few longitudinal studies have related these minerals to cancer or cardiovascular disease mortality in a population. METHODS: Data from the Paris Prospective Study 2, a cohort of 4035 men age 30-60 years at baseline, were used to assess the association between serum zinc, copper, and magnesium and all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular disease mortality. Serum mineral values measured at baseline were divided into quartiles and classified into low (1st quartile, referent group), medium (2nd-3rd quartiles), and high (4th quartile) values. During 18-year follow up, 339 deaths occurred, 176 as a result of cancer and 56 of cardiovascular origin. Relative risks (RRs) for each element were inferred using Cox's proportional hazard model after controlling for various potential confounders. RESULTS: High copper values (4th quartile) were associated with a 50% increase in RRs for all-cause deaths (RR = 1.5; 95% confidence interval = 1.1-2.1), a 40% increase for cancer mortality (1.4; 0.9-2.2), and a 30% increase for cardiovascular mortality (1.3; 0.6-2.8) compared with low values (1st quartile). High magnesium values were negatively related to mortality with a 40% decrease in RR for all-cause (0.6; 0.4-0.8) and cardiovascular deaths (0.6; 0.2-1.2) and by 50% for cancer deaths (0.5; 0.3-0.8). Additionally, subjects with a combination of low zinc and high copper values had synergistically increased all-cause (2.6; 1.4-5.0) and cancer (2.7; 1.0-7.3) mortality risks. Similarly, combined low zinc and high magnesium values were associated with decreased all-cause (0.2; 0.1-0.5) and cancer (0.2; 0.1-0.8) mortality risks. CONCLUSIONS: High serum copper, low serum magnesium, and concomitance of low serum zinc with high serum copper or low serum magnesium contribute to an increased mortality risk in middle-aged men.

PMID: 16570028

[nameless]

Thanks for the suggestions. One concern I have though is... to correct a zinc deficiency I may need 30-50mg/daily for several months. Will I be creating a copper/zinc imbalance if I don't supplement with copper at the same time? At a 10:1 ratio that's 3-5 mg daily of copper, which seems like an awful lot to me.

Or is copper not needed until the zinc deficiency is corrected?

Optizinc might be a good option, as I believe it doesn't interfere with copper. But is the methionine a potential problem?

And I agree about the LEF Only Trace Minerals product. That much manganese is just insane.

[edward]

According to this the truly only effective supplement is Zinc Picolinate. The citrate and gluconate groups showed no zinc accumulation.


http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/3630857

Barrie SA, Wright JV, Pizzorno JE, Kutter E, Barron PC.

The comparative absorption of zinc after oral administration of three different complexed forms was studied in 15 healthy human volunteers in a double-blind four-period crossover trial. The individuals were randomly divided into four groups. Each group rotated for four week periods through a random sequence of oral supplementation including: zinc picolinate, zinc citrate, and zinc gluconate (equivalent to 50 mg elemental zinc per day) and placebo. Zinc was measured in hair, urine, erythrocyte and serum before and after each period. At the end of four weeks hair, urine and erythrocyte zinc levels rose significantly (p less than 0.005, p less than 0.001, and p less than 0.001) during zinc picolinate administration. There was no significant change in any of these parameters from zinc gluconate, zinc citrate or placebo administration. There was a small, insignificant rise in serum zinc during zinc picolinate, zinc citrate and placebo supplementation. The results of this study suggest that zinc absorption in humans can be improved by complexing zinc with picolinic acid.

PS Picolinate is pretty cheap, sadly they just dont carry it at your local drugstore just like the effective forms of magnesium. Why is it that drug stores, grocery stores etc. only carry "cr@p" versions of supplements, magnesium oxide, non balanced artificial vit E, worthless/toxic multivitamins etc etc. Well I know why but its frustrating so I had to vent (fedex, UPS, DHL and the US Mail all love me)

Edited by edward, 25 July 2008 - 11:19 AM.

[quarter]

Zinc monomethionine (L-OptiZinc) or Zinc picolinate?

I am reading conflicting reports as to which is better. I have been using L-OptiZinc as part of my DIY ZMA (along with either Magnesium Orotate or Magnesium Citrate powder, and sublingual B6 in the form of P5P).

Is L-OptiZinc superior to zinc picolinate?

[krillin]

According to the RDA book, the lowest dose of zinc observed to lower copper was 60 mg (50 mg supplement + assumed 10 mg from diet). The UL was thus set at 40 mg, so stay under that and there shouldn't be any problems.

PMIDs 7883627, 9498328, 10801947, and 2506318 look bad for ZnMet.

PMIDs 3668684 and 4020489 found that doses of picolinic acid much greater than that of zinc can either interfere with absorption or increase absorption but increase excretion even more. There might not be a problem with stoichiometric amounts, but there would always be some nagging uncertainty in the back of my mind. PMID 3195986 says "It is concluded that dietary PA forms soluble complexes with metal ions which are rapidly absorbed but are then re-excreted in urine and may not be available for metabolism or incorporation into tissues." PMID 1728807 found that 14.6 mg of zinc picolinate (from PERQUE2 Life Guard) "Supplementation had no effect on plasma, RBC, or urinary zinc (Table 6) or concentrations of the two major zinc-binding proteins, albumin and a2-macroglobulin (data not shown)."

Citrate is nice and natural and uncontroversial.

J Inorg Biochem. 1980 Jan;12(1):71-8.
Isolation of a low molecular weight zinc binding ligand from human milk.
Lönnerdal B, Stanislowski AG, Hurley LS.

A low molecular weight zinc binding compound from human milk has been purified by ultrafiltration, gel filtration, and ion-exchange chromatography. Evidence is provided that this compound is citrate. A higher amount of citrate-bound zinc was found in human milk than in cow's milk. It is suggested that the therapeutic value of human milk for patients with the genetic disorder of zinc metabolism acrodermatitis enteropathica (AE) derives from a greater content of bioavailable zinc citrate in human than in cow's milk.

PMID: 7189547

[nameless]

Thanks for the additional info. I have been avoiding citrate/minerals (mag citrate) due to possible aluminum/lead absorption issues (studies say it may happen when using calclum citrate). But I would think the amount in zinc citrate is way too small to be an issue, if there is even an issue to begin with.

Can you recommend a brand of zinc citrate? It oddly seems hard to find. The only one I've found so far, in the dosing range I'm looking for, is Allergy Research Group Zinc Citrate -- 25 mg. I'm thinking zinc ascorbate might be good to try too, but it seems nobody sells it as a standalone.

[balance]

Lamberts has 15 and 50mg zinc citrate.

[krillin]

Can you recommend a brand of zinc citrate? It oddly seems hard to find. The only one I've found so far, in the dosing range I'm looking for, is Allergy Research Group Zinc Citrate -- 25 mg. I'm thinking zinc ascorbate might be good to try too, but it seems nobody sells it as a standalone.

I use Natural Factors.

[Bghead8che]

I use zinc citrate. Do a dietary analysis before taking any copper. The top quartile of serum copper got smacked in the Paris Prospective Study. How much would put you in the top quartile? In this review it's above 1.86 mg/day.

Data from the surveys on which these calculations were based were pooled so the shape of the distribution of 849 diets could be defined and to allow comparison of diets to the revised standard [1]. The figure reveals positive skewness, but only 3.2% of the diets exceed 3.0 mg/day; 61% are less than 1.5 mg/day and approximately one-third are less than 1 mg. The middle quartiles ranged from 0.91 to 1.86 mg/day. This distribution is representative of diets made from conventional foods in Belgium, Canada, UK and the US [7].

LEF's Only Trace Minerals and AOR's Zinc - Copper Balance are only for the suicidal. 136% of the UL for manganese in LEF's! And their 2 mg of copper puts you in the kill zone before you even add in what you get in food.

Epidemiology. 2006 May;17(3):308-14.
Zinc, copper, and magnesium and risks for all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular mortality.
Leone N, Courbon D, Ducimetiere P, Zureik M.
Unit 744 National Institute of Health and Medical Research (INSERM), Lille Pasteur Institute, Lille, France.

BACKGROUND: Experimental data suggest that zinc, copper, and magnesium are involved in carcinogenesis and atherogenesis. Few longitudinal studies have related these minerals to cancer or cardiovascular disease mortality in a population. METHODS: Data from the Paris Prospective Study 2, a cohort of 4035 men age 30-60 years at baseline, were used to assess the association between serum zinc, copper, and magnesium and all-cause, cancer, and cardiovascular disease mortality. Serum mineral values measured at baseline were divided into quartiles and classified into low (1st quartile, referent group), medium (2nd-3rd quartiles), and high (4th quartile) values. During 18-year follow up, 339 deaths occurred, 176 as a result of cancer and 56 of cardiovascular origin. Relative risks (RRs) for each element were inferred using Cox's proportional hazard model after controlling for various potential confounders. RESULTS: High copper values (4th quartile) were associated with a 50% increase in RRs for all-cause deaths (RR = 1.5; 95% confidence interval = 1.1-2.1), a 40% increase for cancer mortality (1.4; 0.9-2.2), and a 30% increase for cardiovascular mortality (1.3; 0.6-2.8) compared with low values (1st quartile). High magnesium values were negatively related to mortality with a 40% decrease in RR for all-cause (0.6; 0.4-0.8) and cardiovascular deaths (0.6; 0.2-1.2) and by 50% for cancer deaths (0.5; 0.3-0.8). Additionally, subjects with a combination of low zinc and high copper values had synergistically increased all-cause (2.6; 1.4-5.0) and cancer (2.7; 1.0-7.3) mortality risks. Similarly, combined low zinc and high magnesium values were associated with decreased all-cause (0.2; 0.1-0.5) and cancer (0.2; 0.1-0.8) mortality risks. CONCLUSIONS: High serum copper, low serum magnesium, and concomitance of low serum zinc with high serum copper or low serum magnesium contribute to an increased mortality risk in middle-aged men.

PMID: 16570028

According to this study almost ANY multi-vitamin would put you in danger of receiving excess copper intake. Ortho-Core for example gives you 1.5mg a serving and you can easily get another 1-3 mg from your diet. It would appear that "most" people should never supplement with copper even when taking zinc. Many Zinc supplements are balanced with copper. So they all have it wrong?

I find this very scary as it appears many of us may be supplmenting with too much copper especially when factoring in the copper intake form our diet.

-Brian

[Bghead8che]

Look at this page from AOR:

http://www.aor.ca/in...per_balance.php

They suggest that Copper and Zinc compete for each other on a much larger scale. They cite several references.

You do wonder. If one were to supplement with Zinc at say 10-30mg w/out additional copper would an imbalance result? The studies seem to be contradictory. While 2.0 mg a day may appear to be a lot of copper I would assume the they are thinking that not all of it will be absorped due to competition with Zinc.

On a side note Albion makes Zinc in Glycinate, Arginate, and Histidinate forms.

-Brian

[krillin]

According to this study almost ANY multi-vitamin would put you in danger of receiving excess copper intake. Ortho-Core for example gives you 1.5mg a serving and you can easily get another 1-3 mg from your diet. It would appear that "most" people should never supplement with copper even when taking zinc. Many Zinc supplements are balanced with copper. So they all have it wrong?

I find this very scary as it appears many of us may be supplmenting with too much copper especially when factoring in the copper intake form our diet.

-Brian

This may be a reason why we keep on hearing about studies where multivitamins are found to be useless or even harmful.

Look at this page from AOR:

http://www.aor.ca/in...per_balance.php

They suggest that Copper and Zinc compete for each other on a much larger scale. They cite several references.

You do wonder. If one were to supplement with Zinc at say 10-30mg w/out additional copper would an imbalance result? The studies seem to be contradictory. While 2.0 mg a day may appear to be a lot of copper I would assume the they are thinking that not all of it will be absorped due to competition with Zinc.

Their first reference is the most interesting. Adverse effects were caused by diets deficient in copper and high in zinc, or by zinc intakes above 60 mg (These are the same results that were used to set the UL.) No data on people getting adequate copper and 20-30 mg zinc. Extrapolating the zinc/copper balance graph, 30 mg zinc would require only 2 mg copper: half the Cu/Zn ratio AOR puts in their product. The text mentioned a maximum 16:1 Zn/Cu ratio to avoid adverse effects, so by that criteria 30 mg would require 1.9 mg. I don't see a reason to go above 30 mg zinc, so therefore there is no need to enter fourth quartile copper territory.

15 mg or more supplemental zinc did reduce the response of HDL to exercise (He cited the wrong study though. I think he meant PMID 3999972.), so you could watch your cholesterol to see if you may need more copper.

The second reference was already cited by me to show how huge 2 mg of copper is. The third reference says copper deficiency is bad. The fourth one says 100 mg/day of zinc is stupid. The fifth one says copper and zinc are needed for bones.

[nameless]

Anyone know what the average amount of copper one receives from diet alone? I understand this will vary quite a bit based on diet, but I just mean in general. Do most people get 1-2 mg/daily of copper without supplementing at all?

[krillin]

Anyone know what the average amount of copper one receives from diet alone? I understand this will vary quite a bit based on diet, but I just mean in general. Do most people get 1-2 mg/daily of copper without supplementing at all?

Answered above.

Data from the surveys on which these calculations were based were pooled so the shape of the distribution of 849 diets could be defined and to allow comparison of diets to the revised standard [1]. The figure reveals positive skewness, but only 3.2% of the diets exceed 3.0 mg/day; 61% are less than 1.5 mg/day and approximately one-third are less than 1 mg. The middle quartiles ranged from 0.91 to 1.86 mg/day. This distribution is representative of diets made from conventional foods in Belgium, Canada, UK and the US [7].